Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

My opponent moved his predator 1" into the woods in a game last night, and didn't get immobilized.  The way the tank was positioned, all the weapon mounts were behind the woods, and only the barrel of the autocannon was actually in the woods with the tank.  It was like the tank had just inched forward into the woods.

I let my opponent shoot the autocannon, but am pretty sure in this situation that none of the weapons would be able to fire because LOS is drawn from the weapon mounts, which were not in the woods and have no LOS through the woods right?  Or because the model is in the woods, does that automatically mean that all of its weapons may shoot out of the woods?

- Oaka

As you said, LOS is determined from the weapon mounts themselves.

No LOS, no shot.


Thats the price for giving your vehicle that extra little bit of cover.

yes he gets the shots

the hull of the vehicle count s as it's base and if it's base/hull is in the terrain then the tank is counted as being in the terrain. as long as he is not more than 6' back he is good to shoot.

 

on the flip side you can shoot him back just as easily.

the hull of the vehicle count s as it's base and if it's base/hull is in the terrain then the tank is counted as being in the terrain. as long as he is not more than 6' back he is good to shoot.

Except that the 'base' of the vehicle is not used to determine LoS from the weapon mounts.

I am with Blue Loki & DIG on this one, although like Oaka I would let the person fire and note that they actually can not and that next turn they must move the Pred further inside the woods to shoot and therefore take another dangerous terrain test. I wouldn't let them continue to fire like that for the rest of the game.

Posted By DaIronGob on 08/21/2006 11:36 AM

the hull of the vehicle count s as it's base and if it's base/hull is in the terrain then the tank is counted as being in the terrain. as long as he is not more than 6' back he is good to shoot.

Except that the 'base' of the vehicle is not used to determine LoS from the weapon mounts.

if any part of the vehicle is in the terrain then the entire vehicle is counted as being in the terrain.piece.  yes LOS must be drawn from the gun no question, but the gun is part of the vehicle that is counted as being in the terrain. you cannot say the vehicle is in the terrain but  then say it isn't.  you measure distance from the hull not the gun as per RAW.

the only time this would matter is if the vehicle hull is more than 6" back in the terrain at which point he cannot see out or be seen.

take the shots and then send some right back at him.

Hey Mughi, do you have a page number or something to support that, it says in the rules simply that LOS is drawn from the weapon mount which would lead me to beleive that if there is no LOS from the weapon mount, there is no LOS.

As we talked about it, the only line from the rulebook that we found that could be used to support the position was in the section on woods. It said something along the lines of if a model was in the terrain, that model could see through 6" and shoot out. The question became whether that trumped the LOS rules for the vehicle weapon mounts, as the vehicle is a model in the woods and, therefore, has been given permission to shoot out.

- Oaka

Way I'd play it is, if you can shoot me, I can shoot you. Did he insist that his vehicle was in LOS to shoot it's guns? Did he then allow you to hit it int he front armor?

It all gets less complicated when you have more than a scrap of terrain on the board. When people are desperate for cover and you're playing on planet billiard-ball, then screwey stuff like this starts to happen.

Posted by dumbuket on 08/23/2006 3:39 PM
Way I'd play it is, if you can shoot me, I can shoot you.

However with vehicles that is not always true.

The only requirement for seeing 6 inches into/through woods is for the vehicle to be in the woods, and range is measured from the hul//mainbody. This means a sponson can fire through a 1inch wide strip of trees/forest as long as the front end of the tank is in the woods. Using the "LOS of the mounted weapons" is clearly for firing arcs BTW, so if it was at the edge of the woods and one sponson was behind the woods and the other outside the one sponson would be blocked, until the tank entered the terrain.

P1 Measuring range and LOS is done from the hull main body of a tank without a base.

P2 To see through a piece of area terrain a vehicle must in in the terrain.

C1If a tank is in the area terrain all of the weapons on the vehicle can see through the area terrain. (obviousy up to six inches etc)

Ghaz, I'm probably just being dumb, but when can a vehicle shoot you and you can't hit it back? Other than indirect fire, I mean.

Because you might just be the one who gets me to model 16'' long barrels onto my looted russ.

If a predator were behind a rhino it would be able to fire at you (because it has LOS) and would not be able to be shot at because you wouldn't be able to see its hull.

This is why some people choose to use levels for vehicles, but that has its own set of problems. (Mainly sniping IC's by blocking LOS with other vehicles.

Posted By dumbuket on 08/24/2006 12:03 PM
Ghaz, I'm probably just being dumb, but when can a vehicle shoot you and you can't hit it back? Other than indirect fire, I mean.

Because you might just be the one who gets me to model 16'' long barrels onto my looted russ.

When there is no line of sight from the vehicle's weapons but the vehicle itself is in sight of another vehicle's weaponry.

"Because you might just be the one who gets me to model 16'' long barrels onto my looted russ."

Your point being?

As Yak has said a billion times - you can abuse the rules of 40K with modelling.

So yes, someone can model 16" long barells on your Looted Russ, and then when in a forest their guns will be able to shoot through it. The rest of us, who aren't making models that give us a rules advantage, will just follow the rules, and find no LOS as the guns are not inside the forest.

BYE

Actually, in this case you draw LOS from the weapon MOUNTING (where the gun is mounted to the vehicle). If you were to model incredibly long barrels it wouldn't change the position of where the guns are mounted.

Of course, you could always make enormous sponsons (or whatever the gun is mounted on). But yep, the rules allow for such abuse if people are willing to do it.