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Against most targets, the missile is probably killier, and for 5 more points it's totally worth it. Let's them take pot-shots at tanks, which will be handy while you wait for the terminators to rain down from the skys.

How do you think a pure deepstriking army will do in city terrain?

Seconded!

Missile Launcher all the way, just in case...

And, will it be a true Lysander Wing army (god bless your yellow painting heart!) or a "counts as"?

And, post your list in the Army List forum! I'm keen to try out a "counts as" version of this force...

Scouts are certainly a must in a lysander wing. I would try to work in a vet sarge in the squads with a teleport homer. From experience with a lysander wing, the homers really can win a game.

Well scout sgt's with homers is kinda the whole point to doing lysander wing.

And no, these will not be IF coloured, they are also "counts as". But a terminator is a terminator is a terminator.

I was kinda leaning towards adding the ML myself just for a bit of "oomph" to the lil guys.

The list itself is pretty simple standard/cookiecutter though.

Lysander with minimal command squad with assault cannons
libby with the same as above
3 squads of 5 termies with assault cannons
2 squads of 5 sniper scouts (possibly with ML)

i'm gonna have to go against the grain here.

the missle launcher is a 1 shot per turn tank killer with longer range that a sniper rifle

if you choose to shoot it at anything other than armour 12 or less at over 36" range the rest of your squad wastes thier shots.

 

and given my experience with missle launchers, the are not dependable enough to hit or kill high armor targets. if i were to run a scout unit of snipers being a dark angel player with intractable i would opt for a cheeper heavy bolter for more shots at the same range to maximise the effective shooting. thier purpose is mainly anti-infantry where they can use thier ranged shooting and pinning ability to greatest effect. i wold leave the tank killing to another unit.

It may not be sound advice, and the math may not support it, but, for 5 more points, I like the idea of having an infiltrating missile launcher that might (I know, I know!) ruin some vehicle's day (side or maybe even a rear shot?)...

Personally I've always used the ML, it fits with the my sniper's role on the battle field "hitting high toughness critters."
Think about it, the heavy bolter is an anti infantry weapon, unless you're relying on your scouts to drop guardsmen (which I believe is your termi's job in this list) the missile launcher is a better choice.
Use your scouts to knock out the bigger threats to your termis such as Carnifex's, Wraithlords, etc... use the termis to cut through infantry and bust the occassional tank.

Well, keeping in mind that 98% of the time the scouts will be the only unit in this army on the table at the beginning of the game, I am thinking it may be prudent to have one carry a ML. Perhaps if nothing else, to get an early start on taking out armor or damaging high toughness critters.

I am not convinced that the HB would be the better choice for inclusion in this squad. Its not a bad choice, but I will already have massive amounts of firepower to begin with that is anti infantry. The heavy bolter does have the advantage of a higher str when dealing with three models (about how many you will hit with a frag round) and a reduced ap, which is irrelevant with so much cover.

I think the ML beats the HB, but not by much.

I would go with the heavy bolter as well with snippers that is. I have two units of scouts and my basic tank hunting missle laucher unit dies almost all the time. My snippers with heavy bolter just seem to stay around longer. Plus the heavy bolter can soften up units while the snippers add in the few xtra wounds need to make them take two test.

Best of luck...

 

I take 4 sniper squads with missile launchers in my vanilla marine army. It makes them flexible. If they need to shoot at tanks, they can. If they shoot at lightly armoured vehicles, the snipers get to roll 2d6 for penentration as well as the ML. If they shoot at marines its a kill and usually a couple armour saves.

I will make a comment here and I don't mean to offend...but...

If I were running a tournament I would not let you use a Lysander Wing unless it was IF and painted as such. Thats what special characters are for...to be a unique part of an army, and for that army to be able to use it and benefit from his abilities.

Also, thats why we have a doctrines and traits system, so you can craft a unique army with the abilities you wanted. Under the old rules, you could use your own paintscheme and get away with saying it was a successor chapter. Technically now, you can, but I'd grumble lol.

But with special character, its a whole different show. I don't think its ethical to take a special character, rename him or paint him differently and say the army counts as...

 

also Yellow is easy to paint. I put down a coat of bleached bone, then follow with the yellow. You can also use bubonic brown.

Posted By Green Angel on 11/12/2006 9:15 PM
I will make a comment here and I don't mean to offend...but...

If I were running a tournament I would not let you use a Lysander Wing unless it was IF and painted as such. Thats what special characters are for...to be a unique part of an army, and for that army to be able to use it and benefit from his abilities.

Also, thats why we have a doctrines and traits system, so you can craft a unique army with the abilities you wanted. Under the old rules, you could use your own paintscheme and get away with saying it was a successor chapter. Technically now, you can, but I'd grumble lol.

But with special character, its a whole different show. I don't think its ethical to take a special character, rename him or paint him differently and say the army counts as...

 

also Yellow is easy to paint. I put down a coat of bleached bone, then follow with the yellow. You can also use bubonic brown.

Huh! I must be color blind! here I have been trying to paint my army yellow but everyone says my army is grey. Oh how cruel fate is!

No Offense taken.

But youre categorically wrong on so many levels.

First of all, the army is legal in everyway. All wargear is represented, all rules are followed for what I am playing. It just isnt "Yellow". In fact they arent deathwing either. It doesnt fit into any strata as it is a DIY chapter. So, barring it from a tourney would be bad for business and I would make sure the store knew that. If I were a local player who bought all my stuff through the store, guess who would win that fight? If you were the store owner, you just lost alot of sales. I dont go in an buy blisters, I buy armies.

Its a constant gripe of mine that people poopoo armies that are actually alot more flavorful than any tripe that GW puts out. So you painted you army to look exactly like GW told you to do it. Bravo for you. Why should I have to be constrained to YOUR sense of aesthetics?

Grumble all you want, but I payed the money for my army just as you did.

Why is it not ethical for me to paint the army however I choose? It is the same thing as if I painted my army to look like bumblebees and said they were imperial fists. Why is wrong for me to be creative and use what I find aesthetically pleasing?

To be honest, you have cited nothing based on rules for banning this type of army from anything.

Ordinarily I'd say the missile launcher any day in any army. It's THE most efficient anti-MEQ heavy weapon issued to Imperial infantry of any stripe.

However, in City Fight, the Heavy Bolter has something going for it in that with cover saves, three shots wounding on 3s are better than one shot wounding on 2+.

Overall, I think Hellfury's got the assessment about right. "Not by much" since the missile launcher is weaker in City Fight than ordinarily and Terminators can bust tanks too.

Boo erns on not painting Lysander yellow - he's the only reason anyone has to paint their Marines yellow in the first place! (cmon, Tank Hunters for +3 points per model in exchange for your opponent getting a chance at beating you if you're in a shaky position end of turn six? almost as bad as Ork Hunters for +1 point and always select FOC as though being comped...)

An important thing to consider-In a Lysander wing, you have nothing that can deal with a monolith besides power fists hitting on a 6. Thus the Missile launcher for the chance of taking it down.

Let me amend.

I played a guy at Baltimore Games Day about 3 years ago who had a Brown Painted Space Marine Army with a Bear theme. HIs army list and fluff papers were fantastic, with bear claws and slash marks on glossy paper. It was awesome.

He played the army saying it was a Black Templars Successor Chapter, which was fine as the army was Wysiwig. I had no trouble telling units apart or what wargear was.

Now 4th edition is out, with new codicies. I feel that since you can DIY your own chapters, if you want to make a colorful, unique chapter, with your own paint scheme, do so, but use the traits system. If you want to use Black Templar Rules or Blood Angels rules, then I'd like to see you either make it an official army or a successor chapter based off the look and fluff of the army. The BearClaw Marines would not pass muster IMHO ( though they would make great Space Wolves.

That is the purpose of the Vanilla Codex, to allow you to make your own chapter and not usurp the unique abilities of a standard chapter like the BT are SW or BA.

Now, taking another step....Using special characters is a whole other can of beans. I think they should only be used as is, no counts as. Hence, Lysander and his rules should only be used for an IF army. While GW does not say you can't counts as with characters, I feel that if they wanted people to just adopt characters for their own chapters willy nilly, they would have created either character creation rules, or templates for characters with certain abilities such as Lysander, Shrike etc. I used to play Raven Guard and have a bunch of mini's painted up for a new RG army. I hate their traits though as they do not fit the fluff, but if I wanted to use Shrike, I'd have to use them.

Perhaps I spoke to harshly as a tournament organizer in not allowing you to use the army, but as a player, I definitley would mark you down on comp or painting and, no matter how awesomely painted the army was, I would hesistate to give you any bonus points because of the deviation from aesthetics. But this is all opinion, and we probably will just agree to disagree on the matter. I wish you luck with the army.

I recently played in 2 RTT's, one with a Wolf Guard in termie armor heavy SW army ( 15 Termies, 8 Blood Claws, 6 Grey Hunters, 6 Scouts in drop pods). I drew 1 and lost 2, but had I played better, I should have won all three games. My losses were do to my mistakes, not the army's weakness. So an all or partially termie heavy army should do well for you. Though I think my ability to reroll armor saves on Termies and the shorter game length due to the reserves rules helped....

In the other tourney I played a Jetpack heavy Blood Angels army, and though I feel I played well and made the right choices, I went 1 win, 2 losses. I did take Best Sportsman, but the army didn't have the anti-tank/vehicle power it needed to compete.

With Lysander Wing, I'd consider taking an INquistor Lord and a Vindicare assassin along with you....use the Vindicare to snipe down enemy las or plas cannons etc.

Yeah, I guess I have to second Hellfury. Why is what he's doing wrong? GW has pretty consistently stated that the counts as rule can be used, as long as it's clear to the oppponent what unit is what. I'm not sure what would be gained by banning such an army from you're tournamen, aside from having fewer players.

Just say that haterz make baby Jesus cry and because of this Lysander has ordered his company to repaint their armor grey in mourning.

In my not-so-humble opinion, non-yellow Lysander-wing is a definite sportsmanship positive; I'd give you bonuses just for not mugging my eyes with something so garish.

Posted By Green Angel on 11/13/2006 11:45 AM

Let me amend.

I played a guy at Baltimore Games Day about 3 years ago who had a Brown Painted Space Marine Army with a Bear theme. HIs army list and fluff papers were fantastic, with bear claws and slash marks on glossy paper. It was awesome.

He played the army saying it was a Black Templars Successor Chapter, which was fine as the army was Wysiwig. I had no trouble telling units apart or what wargear was.

Now 4th edition is out, with new codicies. I feel that since you can DIY your own chapters, if you want to make a colorful, unique chapter, with your own paint scheme, do so, but use the traits system. If you want to use Black Templar Rules or Blood Angels rules, then I'd like to see you either make it an official army or a successor chapter based off the look and fluff of the army. The BearClaw Marines would not pass muster IMHO ( though they would make great Space Wolves.

That is the purpose of the Vanilla Codex, to allow you to make your own chapter and not usurp the unique abilities of a standard chapter like the BT are SW or BA.

Now, taking another step....Using special characters is a whole other can of beans. I think they should only be used as is, no counts as. Hence, Lysander and his rules should only be used for an IF army. While GW does not say you can't counts as with characters, I feel that if they wanted people to just adopt characters for their own chapters willy nilly, they would have created either character creation rules, or templates for characters with certain abilities such as Lysander, Shrike etc. I used to play Raven Guard and have a bunch of mini's painted up for a new RG army. I hate their traits though as they do not fit the fluff, but if I wanted to use Shrike, I'd have to use them.

Perhaps I spoke to harshly as a tournament organizer in not allowing you to use the army, but as a player, I definitley would mark you down on comp or painting and, no matter how awesomely painted the army was, I would hesistate to give you any bonus points because of the deviation from aesthetics. But this is all opinion, and we probably will just agree to disagree on the matter. I wish you luck with the army.

Thanks for the luck. Its most appreciated.

Posted By Green Angel on 11/13/2006 11:45 AM

While GW does not say you can't counts as with characters, I feel that if they wanted people to just adopt characters for their own chapters willy nilly,

They do. Its called "counts as"...
So what  you're basically saying that becuase I follow all the rules and have everything repped correctly, I am getting zeroed in soft scores and no bonuses because I hate the color yellow?

If you are a tournament organizer, I would take a step back and reevaluate how a fair judging would occur. Since this is so aesthitically displeasing to you, and your willing to bottom out an opponent because of this, how would you handle someone else obviously bombing out an opponent because he is biased towards a paint scheme?

In most RTT's I have seen, if you bottom someone out like that, and its obvious there was no good reason, then the judges usually correct the mistakes you made in soft scores.

But yes, we can agree to disagree.

This reminds me alot of Darrian13's drop pod thread.
www.dakkadakka.com/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/15/tpage/4/view/Topic/postid/107623/Default.aspx

Posted By Green Angel on 11/13/2006 11:45 AM

 I definitley would mark you down on comp or painting 

So you would cheat and mark down painting because of composition?

 

Yes. Comp reflects unit choice. Unit choice is based on the army. If I saw someone using an army like that I would figure they were powergaming, using their units but another army's rules to get the benefits.

Like an alaitoc army using 3 wraithlords.

If its ok to take any kind of space marine army and say it counts as, then whats the point of the traits system?

 

I played my WolfGUard Wing drop pod army.....no missile launchers or anything. I ran into a Necron player, and had nothing to kill the Monolith, so now I'm sticking in a couple of missile launchers on the termies. Are you sure you aren't gonna take at least 1 or two lascannon tactical squads for that kind of foe?

My latest Space Marine army is ironically a scout based/themed army. Comprising a total of 36 scout (8with sniper, 2with missile, 2with power fists, 6with boltguns and 16with pistols.

I usually field one or two 10man squads of bolt pistol scouts, backed up with either one or two 5man squads of heavy weapon scouts. Usually 1missile, 3sniper, 1 boltgun.

I find this usually works well if used to support each of the teams together. Hope it helps

Posted By Green Angel on 11/13/2006 10:09 PM

Yes. Comp reflects unit choice. Unit choice is based on the army. If I saw someone using an army like that I would figure they were powergaming, using their units but another army's rules to get the benefits.

Like an alaitoc army using 3 wraithlords.

If its ok to take any kind of space marine army and say it counts as, then whats the point of the traits system?

So still that same thing applies. Even though its an imperial fitst army that isnt painted yellow, I get knocked down on points.

Looks like even Jeff Hall is cool with it.

Posted By carmachu on 11/14/2006 2:42 PM

Looks like GW doesnt have a problem with it. According to Jeff Hall:

"As for your WYSIWYG question, yes, you can use your Ultramarines with traits. As long as everything is clearly spelled out on a list and detailed to your opponent, you shouldn't have any problems with something like that. Now if you tried to say your Ultramarines are Empire guys and use them in Warhammer, you would have some problems..."


So if GW doesnt have a problem with it, why should you as joe shmo?

But what does he know? He only manages GW's grand tourneys...


As for the missile launchers and monoliths, I really am not sure. I mean, why not just take a predator annhilator for the purpose as opposed to a measely missle lancher. The predator kitted with three LCs is just  barely under 50% more expensive than a scout sniper squad equipped with ML.

Posted By Green Angel on 11/13/2006 11:45 AM

Let me amend.

I played a guy at Baltimore Games Day about 3 years ago who had a Brown Painted Space Marine Army with a Bear theme. HIs army list and fluff papers were fantastic, with bear claws and slash marks on glossy paper. It was awesome.

He played the army saying it was a Black Templars Successor Chapter, which was fine as the army was Wysiwig. I had no trouble telling units apart or what wargear was.

Now 4th edition is out, with new codicies. I feel that since you can DIY your own chapters, if you want to make a colorful, unique chapter, with your own paint scheme, do so, but use the traits system. If you want to use Black Templar Rules or Blood Angels rules, then I'd like to see you either make it an official army or a successor chapter based off the look and fluff of the army. The BearClaw Marines would not pass muster IMHO ( though they would make great Space Wolves.

That is the purpose of the Vanilla Codex, to allow you to make your own chapter and not usurp the unique abilities of a standard chapter like the BT are SW or BA.

Now, taking another step....Using special characters is a whole other can of beans. I think they should only be used as is, no counts as. Hence, Lysander and his rules should only be used for an IF army. While GW does not say you can't counts as with characters, I feel that if they wanted people to just adopt characters for their own chapters willy nilly, they would have created either character creation rules, or templates for characters with certain abilities such as Lysander, Shrike etc. I used to play Raven Guard and have a bunch of mini's painted up for a new RG army. I hate their traits though as they do not fit the fluff, but if I wanted to use Shrike, I'd have to use them.

Perhaps I spoke to harshly as a tournament organizer in not allowing you to use the army, but as a player, I definitley would mark you down on comp or painting and, no matter how awesomely painted the army was, I would hesistate to give you any bonus points because of the deviation from aesthetics. But this is all opinion, and we probably will just agree to disagree on the matter. I wish you luck with the army.

I recently played in 2 RTT's, one with a Wolf Guard in termie armor heavy SW army ( 15 Termies, 8 Blood Claws, 6 Grey Hunters, 6 Scouts in drop pods). I drew 1 and lost 2, but had I played better, I should have won all three games. My losses were do to my mistakes, not the army's weakness. So an all or partially termie heavy army should do well for you. Though I think my ability to reroll armor saves on Termies and the shorter game length due to the reserves rules helped....

In the other tourney I played a Jetpack heavy Blood Angels army, and though I feel I played well and made the right choices, I went 1 win, 2 losses. I did take Best Sportsman, but the army didn't have the anti-tank/vehicle power it needed to compete.

With Lysander Wing, I'd consider taking an INquistor Lord and a Vindicare assassin along with you....use the Vindicare to snipe down enemy las or plas cannons etc.

I don't see the point.  As long as he was using the specific rules for the army for all intents and purposes he was playing that army.  There is no rule in my Codex: Space Marines that says that Imperial Fists must be painted yellow.