streetsamurai wrote: This seems to be heading to the failure category. I tought it would have done a lot better than that
It's funded?
It also comes down to expectations from a known brand and company. $200k for a new company kickstarting a new game is incredible. $200k for a company with the size and name recognition of Wyrd is a failure.
Through the Breach only made $241k all told. It's received a huge amount of support from the company with dozens of one shot adventures, several full campaigns and three faction specific expansions - they wouldn't be producing these if they weren't making money off the game. The Other Side has almost made as much in it's first week.
And if it's anything like *most* campaigns (not all, but most I've seen) it'll probably waffle for a few weeks. Now is just the holding pattern, it's time for getting the word of mouth out, advertising (company based and fan based alike), etc.
Barring a *big* surprise (an awesome LE sculpt, opening the vault on a beloved or highly sought after previous LE, something that requires participation or getting gouged on the secondary market), I imagine we probably won't see much dramatic movement until the last few days.
For now it's more about holding the line than rushing forward. The 48 hour reminder emails will likely do more for progress than much Wyrd can do short of doubling the tier contents (provided to emphasize the absurdity, obviously they aren't going to do that)
I think they see it as a quick infusion of cash to pay bills for product development.
They did that for Through the Breach. This product is developed. Like, really. They've been showing renders and master prints for a year. They've had the rules in development for several years, and in closed public testing for the last year. They're showing final art and final unit cards. The development is mostly done.
This kickstarter is for the initial production run. Rather than launch with one box per Allegiance and a rulebook, and then wait every month for a new unit, they want to launch the game with a larger range of available models.
I'm sure the 500 people who end up playing the game will appreciate that. :-p
As was stated above, a company the size of Wyrd, trying to leverage a generally well regarded IP like Malifaux, and getting these results, can be spun all you want... but its a failure.
From what I can tell, Wyrd really isn't a very large company. Malifaux has been a pretty successful game in terms of getting attention in the market, but the company itself is pretty small. Skirmish games, for all of their advantages, just don't require the volume of product to make the kind of sales you see out of something like PP or GW. I'd guess this is, if nothing else, an attempt to create a product that can support a larger company.
They've put up stretch goals to 500k. There's a few free units in there. If you pledge at the Commander level you get enough to play a full 2 commander game which is nice if it reaches 500k.
Yeah, while I personally think KD:M is a cool game, the body horror thing appeals to me and I like cooperative monster hunting. I used to be addicted to Monster Hunter, afterall.
But I can't get my group at all to try cooperative games. They're big into The Walking Dead, and won't touch my copy of Zombicide. They all adore Star Wars, but won't touch my copy of Imperial Assault. Add to that two of them are my nephews, one of which is still in primary school, and penis and boob monsters are out.
.Mikes. wrote: I think we're missing the big question about ToS, and that is what shall the nickname be? MaliHordes or Warmafaux?
I'll just be going with TOS. There's no real reason to mix Warmachine names into it. Warmachine and Hores are mashed together because as games they mash together. The Other Side is entirely separate from Malifaux.
Warmachine and Hordes are intercompatible enough that they're the same game.
Malifaux and TOS only share a model scale of 32mm. They're otherwise literally incompatible games. 40k and Fantasy Age of SpaceMarines Sigmar are more compatible with one another than TOS and Malifaux are.
To be honest, I'm not a fan of the name "The Other Side" nor TOS either. It's awkward. However, it does indirectly advertise Malifaux as the main line.
I suggest:
TOtS or TOTS
It's a pronounceable word, has a letter per syllable, and acronyms are allowed to do that. Let's make it a thing.
Not too sure I want to play Terms of Service, which is what I keep seeing.
I think it does start to look like a good deal if it hits 500k.
If.
I hope it does.
At the very least even if I can't find any opponents, I can get a lot of use out of these guys. That Gibbering Hordes army is an instant Forces of Nature army for Kings of War as well.
The Cult is piles of instant Chaos spawn adn fun for all sorts of horror- related games.
As strange as it is for me to say I hope the Hordes get something other than nondescript fishmen. They need some lizards up in there!
I think it does start to look like a good deal if it hits 500k.
If.
I hope it does.
Actually 450k to be a good deal. At 450k, Commander level pladges get a free second Commander, a free Adjunct, a free Squad and a free Champion. 475k unlocks large Champions, but they're not free. 500k unlocks a limited edition model (maybe two, they didn't say if Bihn was limited edition) which sound like they've got something to do with the unannounced 'syndicates'. Thrace is part of the Guild syndicate.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: As strange as it is for me to say I hope the Hordes get something other than nondescript fishmen. They need some lizards up in there!
Well, they've alredy got Sea Louse' (Karkinoi), and Armoured Whelks (Hermit Crabs) are coming. They can be seen in the Allegiances video, and in the below artwork. Also in the below artwork it appears their 'large Champion' may be Godzilla.
He could also be Cult of the Burning Man. The blue lights are making me think Gibbering Hordes, because it matches the glowing tail of the Striped Skulker in the same picture. Cults magic seems to be purple. But that face is all weird. Hordes stuff tends to have a... cleaner look?
Mymearan wrote: So this Kickstarter is based on Malifaux? I don't see the word "Malifaux" mentioned on the KS page.
It's a different game, but in the Malifaux universe. Basically, what the nations on the Eath side of the Breach are getting up to, which is basically Weird War 1. So larger scale - 40-60 models per side, squads of infantry, huge monsters and mechs, cavalry units, etc.
Oh I really hope it hits 450K at least. It is possible with how it is going and that would make me jump in for sure. A really solid deal at that point. I really want to see how the heavy mech infantry play out. It should be good.
I also agree with previous points. KD:M is super cool and I would love to back it (also a massive Monster Hunter fan), but the style of it is... uh well seeing as I play with a heavily female crowd if I brought that out to them with all the body horror, penises and boobs, they would almost certainly exile me from the gaming group. They are not a fan of that stuff at all.
Have they said whether there will be any model crossover between this and Malifaux? Because if I understand right, it is a different rules system but the scale should work. And as you guys were saying, it is the same fictional world, just a different part of it.
As I understand it, Malifaux is the name of an alternate world that was discovered by wizards from the setting's Earth. Games of Malifaux are assumed to be taking place in that world and some of the characters are natives of that world or have been changed by it in various ways. There's story potential for Malifaux-natives to somehow cross to Earth in large enough numbers to participate in the mass combat game. Or for new Earth-side units designed for that game to venture to the Malifaux side.
ClockworkChaos wrote: Oh I really hope it hits 450K at least. It is possible with how it is going and that would make me jump in for sure. A really solid deal at that point. I really want to see how the heavy mech infantry play out. It should be good.
It seems to be going very similarly to Wyrd's previous project: TTB. The campaign seems similarly set up.
Two days of growth followed by a lull of very slow growth eventually picking up at the very end. All except 200k in TOTS instead of last time's 150k in TTB.
Well, TOS has almost reached TTB's closing amount, so there's hope at least.
People were asking about the Cult of the Burning Mans 'large champion' on the official forum and Aaron mentioned the name Horomatangi. Horomatangi was a huge lizard that terrorised the Maori's of New Zealand, who would kill fishermen by boiling the water around them.
So there we go. Godzilla is the Cult of the Burning Man, not Gibbering hordes. Makes sense that he's trying to swap Yazari out of the air. Also the idea of boiling water to kill enemies would be rather uniquely powerful against an aquatic foe. I wonder if he's got abilities that makes Tide Pools hazardous to Gibbering Hordes? Though it makes me wonder what the Gibbering Hordes large Champion will be.
ClockworkChaos wrote: Oh I really hope it hits 450K at least. It is possible with how it is going and that would make me jump in for sure. A really solid deal at that point. I really want to see how the heavy mech infantry play out. It should be good.
It seems to be going very similarly to Wyrd's previous project: TTB. The campaign seems similarly set up.
Two days of growth followed by a lull of very slow growth eventually picking up at the very end. All except 200k in TOTS instead of last time's 150k in TTB.
450k seems like it'll be tough.
I am not familiar with Kicktraq, but the image you show of The Other Side progress suggests it is trending over 1 million dollars. when this is all done. If the trend line is not a very accurate measure, it should have been left out. How the data is presented to suggest that this Kickstarter will not be making much progress is rather weak. My experience with most Kickstarters are that the beginning have a steep increase in funding, with very slow increase until the last 2 days or so.
Edit: Reading more about the trendline from Kicktraq - the site itself indicates it is too early to know how the project would end up until the campaign have progressed.
akai wrote: I am not familiar with Kicktraq, but the image you show of The Other Side progress suggests it is trending over 1 million dollars. when this is all done. If the trend line is not a very accurate measure, it should have been left out. How the data is presented to suggest that this Kickstarter will not be making much progress is rather weak. My experience with most Kickstarters are that the beginning have a steep increase in funding, with very slow increase until the last 2 days or so.
Edit: Reading more about the trendline from Kicktraq - the site itself indicates it is too early to know how the project would end up until the campaign have progressed.
Yeah, no, Kicktraq's own admission of inaccuracy doesn't do justice to how misleading the trending chart/note is.
Basically, the Trending stuff assumes that steady progress will continue from this minute to the end. No more lulls or slumps or setbacks, which absolutely won't be the case.
Let's look at KDM1.5's chart? Yeah, KT's approach is basically useless for big starts to campaigns, which... Kickstarter is kind of driving with the popularity of early birds. And I'm not convinced these are unrelated matters.
Kicktraq is useful/interesting for the Daily data, to see progress per day. Their estimates are pure bullgak that aren't based in reality until the final days, at which point it's not an estimate, it's a "duh, no gak" moment.
Yeah, it basically looks like some pretty simple averages, so provides very little info.
It's a shame, since they have an absolute ton of data, and most follow a reasonably similar curve, so I bet they could have some pretty accurate guesses but haven't done the legwork.
Yeah, happy to be able to take him. The render doesn't look quite as good as the art, but it's at a really werid angle. Either way, I was not considering adding any add ons, but I might have to spring for him to give me another commander.
Curious about the Egg Clutch. It's Hordes 'champion' but is spawned by Karkinoi.
I don't really know what size they are, but I need that motorcycle as a Shadow Emissary proxy for my Wild Ones McCabe crew.
That Abyssianian lady with the laser cannon looks awesome too.
These concepts are getting me rather excited. Still probably going to wait until they go retail, but these Abyssianian models look really cool especially after the lame cliche mech-thing they had at first.
Looking at the size of the guys riding it, looks like it'll be about as tall as the monowheel guys from that set and almost double the length of Rollins. So should be okay for an Emmisary but it might only just squeeze onto a 50mm base.
There's been some movement today. Amount total jumped to almost 225k, so it shouldn't be long now until we have the second commanders.
Renders for everything are on Wyrds website (oddly, not their kickstarter page which they really should do).
Whoa! Impressive amount of cool stuff in TOS' future, certainly has my interest pumped ... and resolve weakening Those final giant champions might be the nail in my 2016 KS coffin - and smoldering rhino might push me over to Cult from Hordes, though I'll admit I'm teetering on the brink here O_O
Yeah, happy to be able to take him. The render doesn't look quite as good as the art, but it's at a really werid angle. Either way, I was not considering adding any add ons, but I might have to spring for him to give me another commander.
Curious about the Egg Clutch. It's Hordes 'champion' but is spawned by Karkinoi.
Would be good to see the titan commander at different angles. At the angle it makes the titan look to have a really large hand and head.
225K stretch goal is reached so the 160 and higher pledges get a second commander option for free.
If we reached the 375K SG, those with Dual Commander ($300) or Titan Pledge ($500) would get over $600 or $1000 worth of products (taking into consideration discounted pricing from MSRP).
Those are some great looking concepts, assuming they get made. I wish Wyrd had started the campaign with some of them as add-ons to get momentum, rather than having 3 lame initial stretch goals. Having only 2 unit choices out of the gate made the game look devoid of options.
Pretty sure it'll all get made. The way I read their statement was the stuff that unlocks will be available at retail on launch, the rest will need to play catchup.
I want to get that Abyssinia commander, but 20 bucks for the guy by himself in PVC is just a huge turnoff.
Which is a shame as if the price was about half of that I'd probably up my pledge near instantly. Plus quite a few others if the prices were more reasonable.
Kickstarter is always a challenge, I get that. I mean, if they go the DEEEEEP discount route, they anger retailers, BUT they get enthusiastic early adopters who will often buy in hard. I feel like that might've been the better play when trying to get into such a crowded market. Again, not every country's game culture is beholden to retail stores for play-space, so catering to them is of difficult-to-quantify value. I think giving people a killer early deal, and having those people showing the game to friends would've been good.
That all said, this is SLOWLY becoming an acceptable deal. I won't say it is a good one, because it is quite a ways off from the warm fuzzies something like Mythic Battles gave me, but it isn't absolute ass anymore either.
And despite my criticism, I really do wish them well. Malifaux really is a damn fine game, and deserves its success. I'm not sure I can say the same for every other product they've rushed to market, but they have shown they can make cool design choices.
Wyrd have always catered to game stores, from putting stuff on their own webstore a month after retailers have the product to their monthly promotions where spending a certain amount of money (usually $60us) gets you a free limited edition model if you email your itemised receipt to them, or random pack in limited edition models sent to game stores. Only three times a year they encourage buying direct from them with limited edition stuff on sale or as rewards.
So them catering for retailers isn't a shock. It's just what Wyrd does, and as someone who has a pretty decent FLGS it's appreciated. My FLGS say their Malifaux stuff flies off the shelves (despite never having a real scene playing at the store), so they're happy about the retail pledge for two cheap starters to promote the game.
Not overly interested in backing this (other than getting that industrial fate deck).
Wyrd did just confirm that the Guild and the Court of Two will be represented with Thrace and Binh Nyguen respectively. Looks like we might get undead Earthside.
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Mr Morden wrote: Has there been any word about possible Malifaux stats / cards for any of the mdoels - would be cool
So far it looks like there will be no cross-compatibility.
However I think it'd be reasonable to see an occasional character down the road, like calling in Sonnia and the Guild to deal with some magical threats or any of Hoffman's constructs that have gone into production.
The game looks cool and I know some local warmahordes players have backed it, but the pricing is making me cautious. $40 for 9 pvc pre-assembled models with kick starter discount is a bit high without knowing exactly what the end product casts will look like detail wise.
jSewell wrote: The game looks cool and I know some local warmahordes players have backed it, but the pricing is making me cautious. $40 for 9 pvc pre-assembled models with kick starter discount is a bit high without knowing exactly what the end product casts will look like detail wise.
They'll be showing production models during the kickstarter for people on the fence because of the material. And yeah, the individual prices are pretty high.
I was impressed by the Zombiecide:BP pvc.
This obviously isn't as good a deal on a per model basis as that, but if they are equivalent quality I think there's value still, but it's on the cusp and not something I could justify kickstarting.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Those are some great looking concepts, assuming they get made. I wish Wyrd had started the campaign with some of them as add-ons to get momentum, rather than having 3 lame initial stretch goals. Having only 2 unit choices out of the gate made the game look devoid of options.
Ditto. Most of the newer designs give the game a far more distinct feel from the initial guys they showed. I'm still not wholehearted digging any of the factions though. Cult interests me but I'd prefer more of the twisted stuff and less of the bugs. On the good guy side I'm wanting something that's more a mix of Abyssinia and the Empire rather than what's shown.
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plastictrees wrote: I was impressed by the Zombiecide:BP pvc.
This obviously isn't as good a deal on a per model basis as that, but if they are equivalent quality I think there's value still, but it's on the cusp and not something I could justify kickstarting.
With PVC the only really fair comparison is price per sculpt. Zombicide certainly has some good sculpt variety too though.
New errata up. Lots of long awaited changes including some that need new cards.
General Clarity Changes (minor gameplay impact)
Tara: Clarified Stutter Time per FAQ, gained Infiltration (Void).
Void Wretch: Gained the Void Characteristic.
Scion of the Void: Gained the Void Characteristic, lost the now redundant Followers of the Void.
Death Marshal: Gained the Void Characteristic.
Dead of Winter: The now redundant The Darlings has been replaced with The World is Empty.
Brewmaster: Drinking Contest reworded for clarity and to work better with Sensei Yu.
Black Blood Shaman: Changed the Black Blood Condition given by the Blood Infusion trigger to the Black Blood Ability.
Nerfs!
Francisco Ortega: El Mayor is now a Condition that ends when Francisco activates or leaves play.
Papa Loco: Hold This is now a Condition that ends when Papa Loco activates or leaves play.
Guild Austringers: Lost enhanced raptor range while focused.
Colette: Prompt is now once per turn per model.
Lenny: No longer gives +Rams to Masters.
Rooster Riders: No longer Reckless.
Rotten Belles: Casting of Lure reduced by 1, Wounds reduced by 1.
Daydreams: Lucid Dreaming rewritten to only apply to one Cast.
Buffs!
Nothing Beast: Became a Henchman, gained the Void Characteristic.
Guardian: Reduced to 7ss cost. Upped minimum damage on the sword to 2.
Lucius: The Austringers sent Lucius a fruit basket with a nice card, and now he doesn't hate them as much. Gained +Mask to Defense (Re: Surprisingly Loyal upgrade). Devil's Deal reduced to 2 damage. Elite Training works on Melee attack and Horror flips of Minions, Mimics, and Guardsmen. Commanding Presence works on all friendly models, range reduced to 12”, TN dropped. Governor's Authority lasts until this model's next Activation. Guild Intelligence made a (0), lost its TN, and now works with all friendly models. TN of Issue Command lowered, Triggers changed around.
The Scribe: Became a Minion. Insignificant changed to The Secretary's Eyes and Ears. Butler now affects all friendly models. Governor's Authority lasts until this model's next Activation. Removed Flurry, gained "Do You Have An Appointment?" Action.
Ironsides: Gained a Tome to her Defense.
Misaki: Deadly Dance changed to a (0) Action, now lasts until the start of Misaki's next activation. Downburst reworded slightly, TN of Defense duel increased. Rolling Thunder Trigger added.
Montresor: The Choking Death now triggers when models activate, instead of at the end of the turn. Gained +2 Wounds. String 'em Up weak damage increased by +1.
Union Miners: Improvised Weapon gained +1 Range. Modified Welder increased to Burning +2. False Claim only discards a Scheme Marker if both are still in play, instead of one Marker no matter what; restriction on only being able to be used when they can Interact changed to only being able to be used when unengaged.
Essentially they're little 'sub' armies that can be hired as allies by their Allegiances. So Court of Two is a Malifaux Syndicate, Guild is an Earth syndicate. They will have their own units, and you can take half your available scrip with these units.
Guild is, well, Guild. We know them from Malifaux. The Court of Two are Neverborn that have slipped Earthside, and rather than fight themselves, they bind ghosts into physical bodies to do their fighting. This would explain why they were asking Kirai about summoning Ghosts in Ripples of Fate.
They're models for The Other Side. Syndicates are little sub factions you can select units from as Allies, and these are models from those Syndicates (probably Champions, it doesn't sound like they get Commanders). Still no crossover models mentioned.
Well, they're sold in 3's because because they're basic minions you might want to run 3 of. You'll rarely run more than 3 of a certain model, and if you would, they tend to do those sets with more (Mindless Zombies, Bayou Gremlins, Hounds, Rats, etc).
Though I agree it would be a way to cut down on miniature design. Guild Riflemen/Guard/etc repacking the existing HIPS models in a set of 9 with new cards would fill out the Guild Syndicate without needing to do new miniatures, and there's really no reason to do new miniatures.
I'd also like to see cards for the 'champions' as henchmen or enforcers in Malifaux. Thrace would be cool as a Guild model, and Binh would be a neat Neverborn. That said, I can understand not saying anything about crossovers at the moment if they want The Other Side to stand on its own.
-Loki- wrote: Well, they're sold in 3's because because they're basic minions you might want to run 3 of. You'll rarely run more than 3 of a certain model, and if you would, they tend to do those sets with more (Mindless Zombies, Bayou Gremlins, Hounds, Rats, etc).
Though I agree it would be a way to cut down on miniature design. Guild Riflemen/Guard/etc repacking the existing HIPS models in a set of 9 with new cards would fill out the Guild Syndicate without needing to do new miniatures, and there's really no reason to do new miniatures.
I'd also like to see cards for the 'champions' as henchmen or enforcers in Malifaux. Thrace would be cool as a Guild model, and Binh would be a neat Neverborn. That said, I can understand not saying anything about crossovers at the moment if they want The Other Side to stand on its own.
Hoping for crossover cards - can't hinder sales of the models?
Whoa! That is some seriously cool concept art being shown... will there be any WIP renders (obviously not for all of it, but maybe some of the earlier goals) before the campaign ends?
Whoa! That is some seriously cool concept art being shown... will there be any WIP renders (obviously not for all of it, but maybe some of the earlier goals) before the campaign ends?
Right here. Only models missing are Binh Nguyen and Thrace.
So, while the body still moves, let's make some preliminary observations (feel free to argue, I'm interested in any objections). The first point of importance comes from taking a look at the $99 pledge and the $160 pledge, specifically the part at the end;
$99 Pledge;
Spoiler:
$160 Pledge;
Spoiler:
Notice first that at the traditional sweet spot of just under $100 receives limited stretch goals, which at this time of $239,946 (319% of original value) constitute... exactly no additional product added. Instead products that were in the pledge from dollar 0 are modified: hardcover instead of softcover, and... UV treatment of cards. If ever there was a stretch goal almost scientifically calculated to underwhelm, it must be "Stat cards will receive a Special Edition UV treatment".
Note also that while you receive (at most) 28 miniatures at the $99 price point, those miniatures comprise only 11 sculpts. Only two(2) of which are unique (the Cult of the Burning Man is an exception, with more unique sculpts).
Moving up to the $160 pledge level, what is being added? A "Titan" miniature is added along with the meaningful stretch goals. Which at this point (again, over 300% funded), represents an addition above the stretch goals of the $99 level of an additional 'Fate Deck' as well as a 'Commander' miniature (which for some factions is more than a single miniature).
Now, I'm not harping on the funding amount for no reason, but to draw attention to the fact that A) the initial funding surge has passed, and B) six stretch goals are listed as achieved with minimal addition to the value of the $99 pledge and only very slightly more at the $160 level. This is important. There won't be another addition of note to the $160 pledge til the $325,000 Stretch Goal (another about $85k or so). Assuming a very generous $4k per day, we're looking at nearly the 48 hour notice at the end of the campaign.
Which means that, for the likely majority of the rest of the campaign, what we're looking at now for the pledges is what they are going to be.
In turn that means that this campaign will rise and fall based on the $160 pledge. This strikes me as a big mistake: the base of the $160 pledge differs from the $99 pledge only by the inclusion of the Titan miniature. An additional $61 on day one gets you one big miniature; do the Titans strike people as something that constitutes a real motivator? It better, because that's the anchor for the pledge level that is intended to do the heavy lifting.
I have some other thoughts on the nature of the game itself, but that I'll put in a different post; for now, like their campaign of years ago, this campaign strikes me as being badly planned and leaning far too heavily on the existing fan base in order to sell.
Yep. Not super-happy with this trend of 2 spots to get in- the more reasonable game package with minimal stretch content (just enough to maybe satisfy some people), and the one that's actually the sweet spot pledge: TOS has theirs at somewhere over 150%, while Kingdom Death's is at 200-400% ($800 vs. 400 (core + bonuses) or 200 (upgrade + bonuses)).
I have some other thoughts on the nature of the game itself, but that I'll put in a different post; for now, like their campaign of years ago, this campaign strikes me as being badly planned and leaning far too heavily on the existing fan base in order to sell.
Not just that, but they really havent even given their fans a chance to open their wallets. There's no tempting add-ons really, so your only option is to buy more factions or more of your 2 choices for unit spam. Maybe sell the original artwork or other exclusives to see if mega fans with deep pockets can get the ball rolling.
As it stands, they'll need to add 375 backers on the $160 pledge level just to get to the point where every faction can buy new unit types at $300k...
Buzzsaw wrote: ...In turn that means that this campaign will rise and fall based on the $160 pledge. This strikes me as a big mistake: the base of the $160 pledge differs from the $99 pledge only by the inclusion of the Titan miniature. An additional $61 on day one gets you one big miniature; do the Titans strike people as something that constitutes a real motivator? It better, because that's the anchor for the pledge level that is intended to do the heavy lifting.
Everyone have a difference of opinion on what is consider a success and what is not, but I do think the communication from Wyrd and their rationale for their campaign (whether you agree or not) have been fairly top-notch. As for the the rise and fall of this campaign will be based on the $160 pledge. I'm not entirely sure what the rise and fall of this campaign actually entails. The product is funded so however many more SGs are reached or not, a product is coming out from this campaign. As of writing this message the backers pledging at the $160 level makes up ~39% of the backers contributing to the campaign. ~31% of the backers are pledging at the two higher levels (300-500).
Also, a Titan isn't the only difference between the $99 and $160 levels. The $160 level gets stretch goal freebies. So at the moment it's also getting a second Commander. If the campaign reaches $450k, $160 pledges get a full 2 commander list. $99 level pledges just get the allegiance box. It'll be what drives upgrades from the people on the $99 level pledge depending on if the pledge levels pick back up after New years.
That said, the parallels to their Through the Breach campaign are fairly striking.
Big start; they have a dedicated fanbase who have been waiting for this for months.
Slog through the middle; once the expectant fans explode their love all over the pledge levels, it waits for the end.
Act 3; the finale; conclusion. Presumably there'll be at least *some* significant movement at the end, when the 48 hour reminder emails go out, and people have to make the call on short notice whether to back or not.
The last one is obviously speculation, but I'd be surprised if it didn't play out essentially like that. Seeing people in the comments asking if they should be worried is somewhat quaint, and makes me a little glad I don't have to worry about talking anyone off a ledge for this one.
Not my circus, not my monkeys. That's their problem now.
Wyrd's have tended to have serious lulls in the middle, and I feel their stretch goals are often pretty lackluster, then they need to rethink them and then they're okay but still not exciting enough to get seriously going again.
-Loki- wrote: That sums up most kick starters though.
A lot of them, sure. Most? Nah. I find they usually follow one of three shapes; /, U, or \.
Kingdom Death might well be the last one; huuuuge start, but will there be any 'gas in the tank' for a finale? A lot of campaigns have U style characteristics, but that's becoming less common in my experience. It used to be predicated on having a fanatical following join in early, and a ton of people on the fence jumping in at the end before they miss their chance. I don't see the former as often anymore, and I don't think that's a coincidence. The KS platform has evolved, and Creators are incentivized to have huge starting boosts. Getting funded in 'omg 0.24601 seconds!' makes for good bragging rights, so a lot of campaigns introduce early birds to drive up early participation. Note; not all campaigns do this, I'm aware, just noting that I think there's a cause and effect in play for that shift *in general*. It also helps get attention on the front page ("45,000% funded!") and that can bleed over to Kicktraq and whatnot.
Basically I think the shift in 'shape' of campaigns is partially due to how backers and creators are using (and sometimes abusing) the platform.
But moreso, it was just funny to compare the two and see the exact same slump at the same time frame. At least this one was just 'low funding on those days' instead of actual backtracking.
Ye gods I had to figuratively talk a few people off ledges during the TtB campaign.
Yep, I'm very curious about KD, since it had such extravagantly expensive early bird pledges, so despite I assume a lot of lurkers, I've heard quite a few people saying they're sitting on 2+ EB pledges and deciding at the end, so I'm tempted to stay that one will roughly hold steady in a shuffle at the end.
I've also seen far fewer see a big uptick at the end since I agree, a lot seem to have a frontloaded funding. Wyrd didn't have EB's (IIRC?), but does have a devoted base that functioned similarly, so I'm curious how many are waiting w/o the incentive of jumping in.
I have a longer (AKA, more interesting) post coming up, but I just noticed that the kicktraq has (as of about 10:40 AM East Coast time) turned negative for the day.
This is an incredibly poor deal. So thank god i find nothing inspiring in the figures or art, because i dont feel any need whatsoever to pledge. I love the way Wyrd often does female characters, and i would probably have some excitement if i saw a significant unit or force, but females barely seem to exist in this game. The terrible price (for PVC) and useless stretch goals dont help. I bought into Wrath of Kings back in the day. $200 for 220 PVC minis. They still look great those figures.
-Loki- wrote: That sums up most kick starters though.
A lot of them, sure. Most? Nah. I find they usually follow one of three shapes; /, U, or \.
I personally like to use J, U or L for the shape of campaigns, owing to the parabolic nature of many of them. I discuss a related phenomenon in my "Mantic Trends" post from some time ago, at the risk of tooting my own horn.
Forar wrote: Kingdom Death might well be the last one; huuuuge start, but will there be any 'gas in the tank' for a finale? A lot of campaigns have U style characteristics, but that's becoming less common in my experience. It used to be predicated on having a fanatical following join in early, and a ton of people on the fence jumping in at the end before they miss their chance. I don't see the former as often anymore, and I don't think that's a coincidence. The KS platform has evolved, and Creators are incentivized to have huge starting boosts. Getting funded in 'omg 0.24601 seconds!' makes for good bragging rights, so a lot of campaigns introduce early birds to drive up early participation. Note; not all campaigns do this, I'm aware, just noting that I think there's a cause and effect in play for that shift *in general*. It also helps get attention on the front page ("45,000% funded!") and that can bleed over to Kicktraq and whatnot.
Basically I think the shift in 'shape' of campaigns is partially due to how backers and creators are using (and sometimes abusing) the platform.
But moreso, it was just funny to compare the two and see the exact same slump at the same time frame. At least this one was just 'low funding on those days' instead of actual backtracking.
Ye gods I had to figuratively talk a few people off ledges during the TtB campaign.
The thing is, there are different factors that go into each segment of the campaign. For a L or U paradigm campaign, the critical part of the early rush is Advertising: building a core of people that are invested enough that they are almost indifferent to the deal they are being offered (true fans, one might call them).
What makes this segment distinct from the final 48 hours, and what distinguishes the U and J from the L, is Conversion. That is, over the course of the campaign two things are happening in the interval (the belly of the U and the bottom of the L and J);
First: people are discovering the project and hitting the "Remind Me Later" button.
Second: the deal is changing. Stretch goals are (one hopes) falling, adding to either the value of the base pledges or the possible options.
What interrelates these two things is that the second (the improvement to the deal) serves to convert the first (the RML people) that a given pledge is no longer a "interesting pass", but "a solid buy". Obviously there are other elements at work, most especially selling add-ons to people that have already bought in, but I believe the greatest factor in explosive growth during the last 48 hours is the base pledge becoming "Too Good To Pass Up".
Which, in turn, leads to up-selling more and more options. This is fundamentally similar to the Foot in the Door technique of salesmanship. That is why constant improvement to the base/sweet spot pledge is important: by making that pledge level more and more tempting, more and more of a 'great deal', the seller is then able to tempt them to increase (add-on) to the base pledge.
It's much easier to sell options to someone that is already committed to buy, then to convince someone that is skeptical of buying that they should make a similar total investment.
In the context of The Other Side, I think this is a fundamental mistake with making the $160 pledge level their 'sweet spot'. It's simply too expensive (there is a psychological barrier to going into 3-digits, hence why one sees so many prices that end in 99) for the most casual people, and relies on dubious elements for much of its value.
Not sure why Wyrd didn't learn from their first foray into KS, or by looking at all the other campaigns since then too - or, maybe they don't want to 'overextend' here, for some reason?
Though proper planning should be able to avoid that...
Without the 'perceived value' being there though, there isn't going to be a "U" or 'Hockey Stick' shape here.
Not sure why Wyrd didn't learn from their first foray into KS, or by looking at all the other campaigns since then too - or, maybe they don't want to 'overextend' here, for some reason?
Though proper planning should be able to avoid that...
Without the 'perceived value' being there though, there isn't going to be a "U" or 'Hockey Stick' shape here.
And maybe Wyrd's OK with that?
They've made it fairly clear they're avoiding going bing too much value in the kickstarter because they intend on it being a long lived retail product. This isn't a zombicide where you dump everything in the kickstarter then move on to the next kickstarter. They want the people who backed to also still have stuff to buy at their FLGS.
I'm not seeing how a 50% off MSRP at the $160 level lacks 'value' though. Right now with the second commander freebie and the discount already baked into that level those pledges are sitting at about $320 worth of product. If the kickstarter manages to pick back up enough to get more of the free models, that discount just gets better.
Personally, my problem with it isn't the KS prices, but the prices in general, and the high threshold. I forget if I mentioned it here, but the expansion/non-KS prices are high enough that even if I thought the prices were awesome, adding more becomes prohibitive, so I don't want to invest in a game I won't be able to keep up with. And then there's the 2nd part, which is that the good price point is pretty high, so it is an investment, esp. when the options are gamble that someone else in the area plays, or get 2 starters.
greywulf wrote: I love the way Wyrd often does female characters, and i would probably have some excitement if i saw a significant unit or force, but females barely seem to exist in this game
Cult of the Burning Man have more squads with female representation, while the King's Empire squads are mostly male. I am guessing this was a decision based on background of the allegiances. King's Empire would be the most "normal" or grounded in social norms...armies are mostly composed of men. The Cult is more radical and, I guess, more accepting to include women in their rank and file of their armies.
While the mass of troops are of mostly the male gender, the commanders and unique troops are more diverse. Troops of the King's Empire is mostly made up of men, but 2 of the 3 commander choices are women.
Not sure why Wyrd didn't learn from their first foray into KS, or by looking at all the other campaigns since then too - or, maybe they don't want to 'overextend' here, for some reason?
Though proper planning should be able to avoid that...
Without the 'perceived value' being there though, there isn't going to be a "U" or 'Hockey Stick' shape here.
And maybe Wyrd's OK with that?
They've made it fairly clear they're avoiding going bing too much value in the kickstarter because they intend on it being a long lived retail product. This isn't a zombicide where you dump everything in the kickstarter then move on to the next kickstarter. They want the people who backed to also still have stuff to buy at their FLGS.
On the other hand, if I was a game store, and saw this was all they could muster, I'm not sure how excited I'd be to carry the line. Also I'm pretty sure Zombicide is carried in game stores...
I'm not seeing how a 50% off MSRP at the $160 level lacks 'value' though. Right now with the second commander freebie and the discount already baked into that level those pledges are sitting at about $320 worth of product. If the kickstarter manages to pick back up enough to get more of the free models, that discount just gets better.
It's because people don't value the figures at the suggested MSRP. I like Wyrd, but come on...$20 for a single PVC commander?! That's preassembled, making cleaning the doubtless ghastly mold lines even more of a pain. Or $45 for the frenzy?
spiralingcadaver wrote: Personally, my problem with it isn't the KS prices, but the prices in general, and the high threshold. I forget if I mentioned it here, but the expansion/non-KS prices are high enough that even if I thought the prices were awesome, adding more becomes prohibitive, so I don't want to invest in a game I won't be able to keep up with. And then there's the 2nd part, which is that the good price point is pretty high, so it is an investment, esp. when the options are gamble that someone else in the area plays, or get 2 starters.
I totally get that, but it appears that, like Malifaux, you're not going to be buying these squads en masse. You're likely not going to go out and buy 3 boxes of Dragoons when one box is almost half of what a Commander can take. And even if you did want 3 boxes of Dragoons, you're going for a particular playstyle and likely aren't going to go for other units.
I'm willing to buy in at the KS level and see what happens. Worst comes to worst I've got some cool aquatic monsters to paint (I love me some aquatic monsters) and stick in my display cabinet.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: On the other hand, if I was a game store, and saw this was all they could muster, I'm not sure how excited I'd be to carry the line. Also I'm pretty sure Zombicide is carried in game stores...
They didn't muster much for Through the Breach, but it's constantly selling at one of my FLGS's. My other FLGS is jumping in with the retail plegde because he sells bucketloads of Malifaux. He just can't keep it on the shelf.
Zombiecide languishes. The boxes sit there for months without moving, and tend to only shift near Christmas. He sells far more Imperial Assault and other board games, so it's not like there's not a scene there for the product.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: It's because people don't value the figures at the suggested MSRP. I like Wyrd, but come on...$20 for a single PVC commander?! That's preassembled, making cleaning the doubtless ghastly mold lines even more of a pain. Or $45 for the frenzy?
That's fair enough. Though I've got some of their current PVC offerings and the mold lines aren't nearly as bad as you're making out. The Frenzy is $35, actually, for 3 50mm based models.
Not sure why Wyrd didn't learn from their first foray into KS, or by looking at all the other campaigns since then too - or, maybe they don't want to 'overextend' here, for some reason?
Though proper planning should be able to avoid that...
Without the 'perceived value' being there though, there isn't going to be a "U" or 'Hockey Stick' shape here.
And maybe Wyrd's OK with that?
They've made it fairly clear they're avoiding going bing too much value in the kickstarter because they intend on it being a long lived retail product. This isn't a zombicide where you dump everything in the kickstarter then move on to the next kickstarter. They want the people who backed to also still have stuff to buy at their FLGS.
I'm not seeing how a 50% off MSRP at the $160 level lacks 'value' though. Right now with the second commander freebie and the discount already baked into that level those pledges are sitting at about $320 worth of product. If the kickstarter manages to pick back up enough to get more of the free models, that discount just gets better.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Personally, my problem with it isn't the KS prices, but the prices in general, and the high threshold. I forget if I mentioned it here, but the expansion/non-KS prices are high enough that even if I thought the prices were awesome, adding more becomes prohibitive, so I don't want to invest in a game I won't be able to keep up with. And then there's the 2nd part, which is that the good price point is pretty high, so it is an investment, esp. when the options are gamble that someone else in the area plays, or get 2 starters.
The problem with using a discount of MSRP as an indication of value is that the MSRP is... well, it doesn't actually exist. That is, if discount from retail were enough, they could make the value unbeatable by simply increasing the MSRP.
Unfortunately, as Spiral points out, most of us have some general idea of the value of similar goods, disconnected from this specific product line.
So, for example, consider that the various Titan models are being offered for $75 as an add-on during this campaign, with an MSRP of $90. The question is not whether the campaign price is sufficiently discounted, but is a Titan model a good value at price X?
Clearly Wyrd sees their Titans as the flagship models of this campaign, the following image ("Alpha Crawler versus King's Hand") is the first product image on the campaign page;
Spoiler:
Now, these seem to be quite nice models, but $90 nice? Let's take a momemnt to ask how do they stack up against some offerings on the market already;
The first things I thought of were the newer Battle Engine models from Privateer Press, the best example being the Transfinite Emergence Projector & Permutation Servitors,
Spoiler:
The TEP has an MSRP of $69.99, and can regularly be found at closer to $60, give or take a few dollars (GameNerdz is offering it for $63 and free shipping, for example). I thought of the TEP because it is (to the best of my knowledge) a HIPS kit (one of the first and best for PP). Others in this category include the Meat Thresher (MSRP of $69.99) and... actually, are these the extent of PP's plastics? Sigh...
Spoiler:
But even the older, Resin and white metal Battle Engines compare favorably on price; the Storm Strider, for example, has an MSRP of $84.99 and about $76 from the aforementioned GameNerds. Or the Sacral vault (MSRP of $109.99),
Spoiler:
I picked these mostly out of a lack of familiarity with other companies' offerings, I'm sure folks more up to date with GW or CB (etc, etc) can propose alternative comparisons. A Dreamforge Leviathan, for example, lists at $125 but are currently available for $70.
By the way, while I was doing this I realized something: there is no scale in any of the things on the campaign I have found yet. Am I simply missing it, or is there really nothing on the front page of the campaign establishing the size of these models?
Assuming that the Titans are roughly on the same scale of the things I mention above (120mm base for the battle engines), can we really say that they are equivalent products to what is available on the market? $90 is a steep price for a model, especially for one of PVC and that cannot be reposed.
Am I incorrect? The more I think about it, the less certain I am about the size of the Titans and what constitutes a valid comparison.
General clean-up as errors were noticed
The Carver is now a legal Killjoy proxy
Round time limits have been increased by 15 minutes (to 2 hours)
Calling Time rules have been adjusted. Organizers are encouraged to give players plenty of warning before Calling Time.
The Ringer rules have been updated, but work essentially the same as has been done
The 2017 Rotation is (obviously) new
The Schemes are updated. This includes:
Schemes moving location
Schemes being removed
Schemes being added
I like the Carver being a legal Killjoy proxy. I hope they do a proxy card for that.
There is a live demo of the The Other Side game being played through Vassal by playtesters. I believe Aaron, the game designer, will be on chat to answer questions related to gameplay.
I picked these mostly out of a lack of familiarity with other companies' offerings, I'm sure folks more up to date with GW or CB (etc, etc) can propose alternative comparisons. A Dreamforge Leviathan, for example, lists at $125 but are currently available for $70.
By the way, while I was doing this I realized something: there is no scale in any of the things on the campaign I have found yet. Am I simply missing it, or is there really nothing on the front page of the campaign establishing the size of these models?
Assuming that the Titans are roughly on the same scale of the things I mention above (120mm base for the battle engines), can we really say that they are equivalent products to what is available on the market? $90 is a steep price for a model, especially for one of PVC and that cannot be reposed.
Am I incorrect? The more I think about it, the less certain I am about the size of the Titans and what constitutes a valid comparison.
I am not familiar with PP games, but comparisons of Titans in the Other Side were usually made to Warmahordes Colossals/Gargantuans. Which if I look at the price range of those unit types (also on 120mm), they range from $105-135 (non-discount and leaning towards 135 more than to 105). It would be a better representation of price comparison to include Colossals/Gargantuans than to just the Battle Engines, in my opinion.
As for pricing, ALL Tabletop Miniature Games are pretty pricey for me . The price structure Wyrd has used for The Other Side, seems to scale similarly with Malifaux prcing (less per troop models, more per commander models so far).
Watching the youtube of the livestream. Looks very streamlined and fast. Mechanics are similar to Malifaux but there's a lot less going on. Flip, add values, cheat or not, if the attacker wins flip for damage. However there's a 'margin' where your flip plus damage needs to beat the enemy armour, and every margin extra 5 it beats their armour by it does one more wound, which makes it easier to clear a whole fireteam with high damage.
Seems like no faction specific effects, just Shaken, Inspired, Pinned, Glory and Reinforce for everyone. That makes it a lot easier keeping track of what everything does. Even skills are communal, for example there's a skill that stops a Commander passing the damage off to a nearby Fireteam which is the same for everyone that has it. Fr a game with so many units and models and rules, that really helps cut down on flipping through books.
Reinforce seems to be how Gibbering Hordes feels like a Horde compared to other factions. They seem to have more ways to do it, like Karkinoi dropping an Egg Clutch and the Asset taken on the Stormsiren. I like this a lot, since it means you're not buying and painting vastly more models than other people.
There is another demo of the game using Vassal streaming live again. If you might have questions about the gameplay might be a good place to get some of the addressed (I will edit this post if they archived this into Youtube again).
There is a live demo of the The Other Side game being played through Vassal by playtesters. I believe Aaron, the game designer, will be on chat to answer questions related to gameplay.
I picked these mostly out of a lack of familiarity with other companies' offerings, I'm sure folks more up to date with GW or CB (etc, etc) can propose alternative comparisons. A Dreamforge Leviathan, for example, lists at $125 but are currently available for $70.
By the way, while I was doing this I realized something: there is no scale in any of the things on the campaign I have found yet. Am I simply missing it, or is there really nothing on the front page of the campaign establishing the size of these models?
Assuming that the Titans are roughly on the same scale of the things I mention above (120mm base for the battle engines), can we really say that they are equivalent products to what is available on the market? $90 is a steep price for a model, especially for one of PVC and that cannot be reposed.
Am I incorrect? The more I think about it, the less certain I am about the size of the Titans and what constitutes a valid comparison.
I am not familiar with PP games, but comparisons of Titans in the Other Side were usually made to Warmahordes Colossals/Gargantuans. Which if I look at the price range of those unit types (also on 120mm), they range from $105-135 (non-discount and leaning towards 135 more than to 105). It would be a better representation of price comparison to include Colossals/Gargantuans than to just the Battle Engines, in my opinion.
As for pricing, ALL Tabletop Miniature Games are pretty pricey for me . The price structure Wyrd has used for The Other Side, seems to scale similarly with Malifaux prcing (less per troop models, more per commander models so far).
Sorry, I missed this response earlier. I suppose that there is no objective measure of how much one particular model appeals to the individual, but that said, I find it very hard to say that what we have seen so far with the Titans justifies their pricing. Specifically, what you say here;
I am not familiar with PP games, but comparisons of Titans in the Other Side were usually made to Warmahordes Colossals/Gargantuans. Which if I look at the price range of those unit types (also on 120mm), they range from $105-135 (non-discount and leaning towards 135 more than to 105). It would be a better representation of price comparison to include Colossals/Gargantuans than to just the Battle Engines, in my opinion.
The problem with comparing against WM/Hordes Collassals/Gargnatuans is that, first, those models (especially the first generation of them) tend to be mixed kits made up of white metal and true resin pieces. Second, many of the Gargantuans are just silly large models.
For example, take the mention that Collossals/Gargantuans tend more towards $135, but let's look at what a $135 MSRP Gargantuan actually gets you in terms of model: the Legion of Everblight Archangel;
Spoiler:
But that is an older model, as I said, in mixed materials. Take a newer Gargantuan, the Circle Storm Raptor, which is in 'plastic' and has an MSRP of $109.99;
Spoiler:
Now, of course I'm not saying that no one can find the Titans comparable value for money, but the combination of a material with a less than favorable reputation, pre-assembly and pre-painting (for me) tends all rather against them. Perhaps some of the Titans that have not yet been shown will be more impressive... but that does rather beg the question of why they are all priced the same.
According to a comment from Wyrd, the Titans are 'over 5" tall but under 6"'; or, to reference my earlier comparison, between the heights of a Dreamforge Leviathan 28mm (at 8.5") and a Leviathan in 15mm scale (4.6" tall). Given the tremendious articulation and sophistication of Dreamforge products it's fair to say that they are priced at a great value. The Titans...
Buzzsaw wrote: Sorry, I missed this response earlier. I suppose that there is no objective measure of how much one particular model appeals to the individual, but that said, I find it very hard to say that what we have seen so far with the Titans justifies their pricing. Specifically, what you say here;
I am not familiar with PP games, but comparisons of Titans in the Other Side were usually made to Warmahordes Colossals/Gargantuans. Which if I look at the price range of those unit types (also on 120mm), they range from $105-135 (non-discount and leaning towards 135 more than to 105). It would be a better representation of price comparison to include Colossals/Gargantuans than to just the Battle Engines, in my opinion.
The problem with comparing against WM/Hordes Collassals/Gargnatuans is that, first, those models (especially the first generation of them) tend to be mixed kits made up of white metal and true resin pieces. Second, many of the Gargantuans are just silly large models.
For example, take the mention that Collossals/Gargantuans tend more towards $135, but let's look at what a $135 MSRP Gargantuan actually gets you in terms of model: the Legion of Everblight Archangel;
Spoiler:
But that is an older model, as I said, in mixed materials. Take a newer Gargantuan, the Circle Storm Raptor, which is in 'plastic' and has an MSRP of $109.99;
Spoiler:
Now, of course I'm not saying that no one can find the Titans comparable value for money, but the combination of a material with a less than favorable reputation, pre-assembly and pre-painting (for me) tends all rather against them. Perhaps some of the Titans that have not yet been shown will be more impressive... but that does rather beg the question of why they are all priced the same.
According to a comment from Wyrd, the Titans are 'over 5" tall but under 6"'; or, to reference my earlier comparison, between the heights of a Dreamforge Leviathan 28mm (at 8.5") and a Leviathan in 15mm scale (4.6" tall). Given the tremendious articulation and sophistication of Dreamforge products it's fair to say that they are priced at a great value. The Titans...
My experience so far with Wyrd have been fairly good (to each their own of course) and they openly admit when they did something wrong (not something any company would admit). The Plastic Circle Storm Raptor (beautiful model) is MSRP $110. The Titans Plastic MSRP is $90. Would that not be a better comparison of price than everything else you have compared earlier? Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions, if something is worth their money or not. My opinion: All miniature war games is expensive .
Where does Buzzsaw get the idea this is pre painted? They've never said it is and none of their previous PVC is. While I agree the kickstarter is flailing badly, Buzzsaw seemed to have a habit of unfair comparisons. Now he's just making things up to criticise. It makes his critique feel somewhat personal rather than objective.
-Loki- wrote: Where does Buzzsaw get the idea this is pre painted? They've never said it is and none of their previous PVC is. While I agree the kickstarter is flailing badly, Buzzsaw seemed to have a habit of unfair comparisons. Now he's just making things up to criticise. It makes his critique feel somewhat personal rather than objective.
To be fair... you're also quick to respond to any negative post with, "Oh yeah, well my local store says Wyrd is amazing and sells out all the time" which isn't objectively useful either. :-p I say it respectfully, but everyone has their biases.
I'm not being objective though and never claimed to be? I'm rather excited by the kickstarter and want it to succeed, so hype levels for me are rather high. I'm here to read and discuss it positively.
Buzzsaw is trying to pass off as an analyst. He's looking at the project and the numbers and critiquing the campaign. To do so you should be objective, it can't be personal. Unfair comparisons are one thing, Making things up to criticise shows either a passing knowledge of what he's criticising which shows a lack of understanding or he's getting personal, Neither should be happening in a critical analysis.
-Loki- wrote: Where does Buzzsaw get the idea this is pre painted? They've never said it is and none of their previous PVC is. While I agree the kickstarter is flailing badly, Buzzsaw seemed to have a habit of unfair comparisons. Now he's just making things up to criticise. It makes his critique feel somewhat personal rather than objective.
Kickstarter discussions always get rather personal. Most of the time its an argument between people trying to justify their decision to spend money on something vs people trying to justify their decision not to spend that money. These things are rarely objective, but its made slightly worth by a couple factors. For one, arguing over how good a deal something is, particularly when there's no great way to review final quality makes things odd.
I think the biggest problem is just that we haven't really seen kickstarter actually produce a wildly successful miniatures game the way we expect. Minis games are something of an inherent popularity contest, so we assume for a new one to have a chance from kickstarter it needs to be one of these out of control funding explosions. That doesn't seem to actually work from what I've seen, but it doesn't change the perception that people aren't interested in the game either.
I get that, but the impression I get from Buzzsaw is that he's not backing or even interested. He's just coming in doing his analysis thing. To either misunderstand the project to the point of thinking they're doing something they've never said they're doing, or simply make something up to try and further prove a negative point, smacks of getting personally involved. It call into question critical analysis when you can't be objective, and critical analysis is all he's offering.
About people not being interested, I get the same impression from the online community about Malifaux. The official forum is hardly very active. Almost no one discusses the game online. A Wyrd Place on Facebook seems to be the only really active place, and most of that is just light talk and sharing hobby projects, nothing discussing the meat of the game. Yet it has consistently large tournaments, product is regularly sold out at their own store and stockists. There's obviously people buying and playing Wyrd products, they just don't seem to care much for online discussion.
I think Buzzsaw does have a point about value though. I'm perfectly happy with what I'm getting as a backer, being over 50% off MSRP already. But others clearly want more. I think some suggestions have been pretty sound - making the current troop that's unlocked per faction a freebie might entire pledges to start back up. While Wyrd are adamant about this game standing on its own, I'm sure there's people that would love the chance to buy certain LE Malifaux models through the kickstarter, like models from the Guilder store as add ons.
They do need to do something, because the kickstarter is clearly stalled.
-Loki- wrote: I get that, but the impression I get from Buzzsaw is that he's not backing or even interested. He's just coming in doing his analysis thing. To either misunderstand the project to the point of thinking they're doing something they've never said they're doing, or simply make something up to try and further prove a negative point, smacks of getting personally involved. It call into question critical analysis when you can't be objective, and critical analysis is all he's offering.
The answer is, I fear, rather simpler and less sinister then you seem implying: I knew the figures were pre-assembled, and I conflated the painted images on the campaign page (and the lack of unpainted images) into the assumption that what was being shown was what you would get. If that error irrevocably colors your impression of my analysis, I see little that I can do to remedy it.
-Loki- wrote: About people not being interested, I get the same impression from the online community about Malifaux. The official forum is hardly very active. Almost no one discusses the game online. A Wyrd Place on Facebook seems to be the only really active place, and most of that is just light talk and sharing hobby projects, nothing discussing the meat of the game. Yet it has consistently large tournaments, product is regularly sold out at their own store and stockists. There's obviously people buying and playing Wyrd products, they just don't seem to care much for online discussion.
I think Buzzsaw does have a point about value though. I'm perfectly happy with what I'm getting as a backer, being over 50% off MSRP already. But others clearly want more. I think some suggestions have been pretty sound - making the current troop that's unlocked per faction a freebie might entire pledges to start back up. While Wyrd are adamant about this game standing on its own, I'm sure there's people that would love the chance to buy certain LE Malifaux models through the kickstarter, like models from the Guilder store as add ons.
They do need to do something, because the kickstarter is clearly stalled.
Again I must caution against the use of MSRP as a gauge for value. After all, if Wyrd claimed that their Titans were worth $200, the discount would be even better, but the value would be identical. As I've proposed with... several examples, I don't think that their product represents value for money at MSRP, and thus their discount is mostly irrelevant.
It's all well and good for Wyrd to imagine that this is a good value: that does not make it so. This is a product where a 'Two-Player starter' is a $300 investment (or am I mistaken about that?). Even we cobble something together starting at the lower pledge value (and thus miss out on Stretch goals) it seems the minimum for two people to play would be $198.
Consider that Infinity currently has two starters (Operation: Icestorm and Operation: Red Veil) that allow two players to start playing their game for $99.99. Even GW has 2 player starters such as Dark Vengance for 40k at $110 MSRP and the AoS starter at $125. PP has two player starters for Warmachine at $89.99 and for Hordes.
Since Buzzsaw mentioned the size of the colossals/gargantuans can be extremely large, I thought I would try to be more objective and look at the sizes of some other PP "plastic" ones at $110 (all released in 2016) to The Other Side "plastic" Titans.
From left to right, you have a Horde gargantuan, then 2 of The Other Side Titans, 2 War Machine Colossals, and finally The Other Side Titan Renders (for the two without a miniature version shown yet). Based on experience with Malifaux renders, those titan renders may not be to scale with each other (Edit #2: Confirmed by Wyrd that the Titan renders are not to scale, so ignore them in the pic above ). All the figures shown in the image are on 120 mm bases and is what I used to try to roughly scale these different images to be of same size. The Gargantuan is extremely large due to the wingspan (maybe several of the Gargantuans/Colossals have the huge wing spans?).
Is the price of the Titans at MSRP seems expensive? For me, yes it does. Is it more expensive compared to other table top war game companies? Not really.
I already like the aesthetics of The Other Side (to each their own). So when I can get Titans for ~$25 through a pledge (Tyrant Pledge), it is a big savings for me. Unless you consider 66-70% not a huge saving. That is subjective of course and to each their own.
Buzzsaw wrote: Consider that Infinity currently has two starters (Operation: Icestorm and Operation: Red Veil) that allow two players to start playing their game for $99.99. Even GW has 2 player starters such as Dark Vengance for 40k at $110 MSRP and the AoS starter at $125. PP has two player starters for Warmachine at $89.99 and for Hordes.
The only one I'd consider a good comparison are the PP starters.
Icestorm and Red Veil are fantastic value, but you're getting 14 metal miniatures - half of what you get in an Allegiance box, two seven model forces. It's a skirmish game. Skirmish games by their nature need less models.
GW may offer a 2 player starter, but it's hilariously unbalanced and not even legal unless you play, from what I understand, Unbound which has no Force organisation. Even playing unbound, again, the Dark Vengeange armies are hilariously skewed to the Dark Angels. Quite plainly, you need to buy more, so Dark Vengeance simply doesn't work as a comparison because it's doesn't give you legal starting armies, or even starting armies that can fairly be played against each other.
With the Allegiance boxes, you're getting a full 1 commander army. It's ready to play our of the box, legal and finished. Warmachine is a better comparison because, from what I understand, it's a legal starter army, it's just very small. However, you're getting 2/3 of the models you get in an Allegiance box. The cost seems fairly similar, if slightly higher on Wyrds part. It's just that TOS uses more models in the smallest game size so they've gone with single army boxes.
New update. Huge change with addons and stretch goal changes! More free models!
Edit: Just saw that Akai linked the update in their post.
Hi everyone,
I have some great news for you!
With the funding you are currently providing, we're off to a very strong start for this game. We're hoping to push things even further than the initial goal, with a big launch and a lot of available units. To this end, we have managed to lock down some additional funding. By canceling a few other (so far unannounced) projects, we are able to put more funding into The Other Side. We believe very strongly in this game, and we want backers to be able to play it the way we envision it. Some trimming here and there, and we are able to do even more for this Kickstarter.
What this means for backers is that we are able to move all of our add on unlocks directly to the add ons, allowing backers to get the units they are most interested in. Interested in the ECB Black Ops? You can now add them! Want some of the Steel Legion? They're available now!
We are really happy to be able to make this shift in the Kickstarter, making sure our backers are able to start playing day one with the units they want. We will begin posting the unit's rules in updates this week, getting them all out to you over the next few weeks.
What does this mean for Stretch Goals?
Well, it means we get to reorganize all of it, dropping out the add on unlocks. Check out this new map!
Now, every single one of our Stretch Goals adds value to Commander level pledges and above.
We also heard backers' concerns about the number of free models included in this Kickstarter, so we've added more and pushed the value to achieve them down even more. This means the free Squad (for Commander level and above) is in our very next Stretch Goal at $250,000! Tokens, an app, and a free Squad are very close.
You can see the the list of freebies on the map, adding even more value to your Pledges.
As a final part of the update, we've also made a few changes to the front of the Kickstarter, adding in some links to the playtester gameplay videos and to our website showing off model renders. This should help new supporters find all the information they need.
It's great to know that, with your help, we are able to deliver this game at the size we want to. We are so happy to be able to make these changes, and we look forward to sharing more information about all the amazing units in the coming days.
Thank you for your support, and we'll see you on the Other Side!
With the funding you are currently providing, we're off to a very strong start for this game. We're hoping to push things even further than the initial goal, with a big launch and a lot of available units. To this end, we have managed to lock down some additional funding. By canceling a few other (so far unannounced) projects, we are able to put more funding into The Other Side. We believe very strongly in this game, and we want backers to be able to play it the way we envision it. Some trimming here and there, and we are able to do even more for this Kickstarter.
It used to be by $375K you get 1 squad and 1 adjunct added and by $500K you get the syndicate model and 1 champion .
The new SG map, $300K to get to where the previous one was at $375.
The new SG map, for each allegiance you choose, by 500K you should get 1 additional squad, 3 adjuncts, 2 champions, and syndicate. So 4 more additional freebies with the new SG plan.
I wonder what other projects were canceled...we may never know...
Buzzsaw wrote: Consider that Infinity currently has two starters (Operation: Icestorm and Operation: Red Veil) that allow two players to start playing their game for $99.99. Even GW has 2 player starters such as Dark Vengance for 40k at $110 MSRP and the AoS starter at $125. PP has two player starters for Warmachine at $89.99 and for Hordes.
The only one I'd consider a good comparison are the PP starters.
Icestorm and Red Veil are fantastic value, but you're getting 14 metal miniatures - half of what you get in an Allegiance box, two seven model forces. It's a skirmish game. Skirmish games by their nature need less models.
GW may offer a 2 player starter, but it's hilariously unbalanced and not even legal unless you play, from what I understand, Unbound which has no Force organisation. Even playing unbound, again, the Dark Vengeange armies are hilariously skewed to the Dark Angels. Quite plainly, you need to buy more, so Dark Vengeance simply doesn't work as a comparison because it's doesn't give you legal starting armies, or even starting armies that can fairly be played against each other.
With the Allegiance boxes, you're getting a full 1 commander army. It's ready to play our of the box, legal and finished. Warmachine is a better comparison because, from what I understand, it's a legal starter army, it's just very small. However, you're getting 2/3 of the models you get in an Allegiance box. The cost seems fairly similar, if slightly higher on Wyrds part. It's just that TOS uses more models in the smallest game size so they've gone with single army boxes.
Just a brief response: I seem to have poorly conveyed my point here, which is less that these represent great values that ought to be compared. As you note, it's rather hard to compare metal to plastic to PVC, even without different game genres.
Rather my point is that there is a point of entry for players that have no experience. The two player starter set at around $100 is mostly about psychology of getting people to invest in the game and to try the rules. 2 Allegiance boxes are a better way to start a complete faction collection, for certain, but they are a much worse way of getting people to try the game in the first place.
Buzzsaw wrote: [Just a brief response: I seem to have poorly conveyed my point here, which is less that these represent great values that ought to be compared. As you note, it's rather hard to compare metal to plastic to PVC, even without different game genres.
Rather my point is that there is a point of entry for players that have no experience. The two player starter set at around $100 is mostly about psychology of getting people to invest in the game and to try the rules. 2 Allegiance boxes are a better way to start a complete faction collection, for certain, but they are a much worse way of getting people to try the game in the first place.
I assume you would know, but just to be objective and to be on the same page, PVC is a type of plastic. Not all plastic are PVC.
Buzzsaw wrote: Consider that Infinity currently has two starters (Operation: Icestorm and Operation: Red Veil) that allow two players to start playing their game for $99.99. Even GW has 2 player starters such as Dark Vengance for 40k at $110 MSRP and the AoS starter at $125. PP has two player starters for Warmachine at $89.99 and for Hordes.
The only one I'd consider a good comparison are the PP starters.
Icestorm and Red Veil are fantastic value, but you're getting 14 metal miniatures - half of what you get in an Allegiance box, two seven model forces. It's a skirmish game. Skirmish games by their nature need less models.
GW may offer a 2 player starter, but it's hilariously unbalanced and not even legal unless you play, from what I understand, Unbound which has no Force organisation. Even playing unbound, again, the Dark Vengeange armies are hilariously skewed to the Dark Angels. Quite plainly, you need to buy more, so Dark Vengeance simply doesn't work as a comparison because it's doesn't give you legal starting armies, or even starting armies that can fairly be played against each other.
With the Allegiance boxes, you're getting a full 1 commander army. It's ready to play our of the box, legal and finished. Warmachine is a better comparison because, from what I understand, it's a legal starter army, it's just very small. However, you're getting 2/3 of the models you get in an Allegiance box. The cost seems fairly similar, if slightly higher on Wyrds part. It's just that TOS uses more models in the smallest game size so they've gone with single army boxes.
Just a brief response: I seem to have poorly conveyed my point here, which is less that these represent great values that ought to be compared. As you note, it's rather hard to compare metal to plastic to PVC, even without different game genres.
Rather my point is that there is a point of entry for players that have no experience. The two player starter set at around $100 is mostly about psychology of getting people to invest in the game and to try the rules. 2 Allegiance boxes are a better way to start a complete faction collection, for certain, but they are a much worse way of getting people to try the game in the first place.
Downside is it's simply how it seems they've designed the game, being based on how many commanders you want to play rather than just based on points.
akai wrote: It used to be by $375K you get 1 squad and 1 adjunct added and by $500K you get the syndicate model and 1 champion .
The new SG map, $300K to get to where the previous one was at $375.
The new SG map, for each allegiance you choose, by 500K you should get 1 additional squad, 3 adjuncts, 2 champions, and syndicate. So 4 more additional freebies with the new SG plan.
I wonder what other projects were canceled...we may never know...
It's actually only 3 additional freebies. 2 Adjunct models and 1 Champion...Apparently this has made them 'cancel other projects' which I'm not buying.
The cancelling other projects sounds like it's got less to do with the freebies and more to do with putting everything into production. The original stretch goals were spaced out to unlock the production of the various squads, which would cover printing and cutting up the masters and working through testing the casting and construction for each. Now they've just thrown all of them in and they're using their own money for that and hoping the kickstarter funds high enough to offset it later.
So, when a "free" unit is unlocked, is it backers choice, or is it the one pictured per faction?
I know its unlikely at this point, and that the pricing is quite erratic (a motorcycle costs more than a nine-model unit?), but if they managed to unlock this free unit, and another, I could see myself considering things. That said, it would mean we're beyond the current stretch map, which I suspect may not be reached in the time remaining.
-Loki- wrote: The cancelling other projects sounds like it's got less to do with the freebies and more to do with putting everything into production. The original stretch goals were spaced out to unlock the production of the various squads, which would cover printing and cutting up the masters and working through testing the casting and construction for each. Now they've just thrown all of them in and they're using their own money for that and hoping the kickstarter funds high enough to offset it later.
If the project doesn't make it to $500k you're right they may have to offset the production of the add on units but what I would say is they've not exactly made the deal much better. It's basically same as usual but they're hoping by unlocking the add on's now it will give the KS some traction.
What would give the KS some traction is to make the initial buy in more appetising that's the core issue here and they seem reluctant to address it.
i am loving the look of these models, but PVC is a no-go for me...
pre-assembled is even more of a deal-breaker...
this game is hitting all of the wrong notes on minis, for me, but the world building and renders are incredible...
such a bummer...
i really want to like the models!!!
i would love to see these in HIPS, even though i have had nothing but bad experiences with the Malifaux plastics, i would be happy to give Wyrd another chance...
i really like their metals, i'm so-so on their plastics, but have no interest in PVC from any of the mini makers in the market...
oh well, i guess i will just have to hope that an Abyssinian or King's Empire army land in the commission queue one day...
the concepts are so cool...
i love that Wyrd is so unique in their world building vision, and wish them the best of luck
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, when a "free" unit is unlocked, is it backers choice, or is it the one pictured per faction?
At the end in the pledge manager you will pick an Allegiance for each Allegiance box you are getting. This determines the free models. If you choose Gibbering Hordes, all the free models are the Gibbering Hordes models. If you have a dual commander, you get a freebie per Allegiance box. If you pick Kings Empire and Abyssinia, you'll get Kings Empire and Abyssinia freebies. At Tyrant level you get one of each Allegiance box, so you get a set of freebies for each Allegiance.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, when a "free" unit is unlocked, is it backers choice, or is it the one pictured per faction?
At the end in the pledge manager you will pick an Allegiance for each Allegiance box you are getting. This determines the free models. If you choose Gibbering Hordes, all the free models are the Gibbering Hordes models. If you have a dual commander, you get a freebie per Allegiance box. If you pick Kings Empire and Abyssinia, you'll get Kings Empire and Abyssinia freebies. At Tyrant level you get one of each Allegiance box, so you get a set of freebies for each Allegiance.
No, I understand that, but would an Empire choice then further let you choose WHICH Empire unit you get for free, as per the next stretch-goal?
-Loki- wrote: The cancelling other projects sounds like it's got less to do with the freebies and more to do with putting everything into production. The original stretch goals were spaced out to unlock the production of the various squads, which would cover printing and cutting up the masters and working through testing the casting and construction for each. Now they've just thrown all of them in and they're using their own money for that and hoping the kickstarter funds high enough to offset it later.
If the project doesn't make it to $500k you're right they may have to offset the production of the add on units but what I would say is they've not exactly made the deal much better. It's basically same as usual but they're hoping by unlocking the add on's now it will give the KS some traction.
That's the impression I get. They've essentially put the 500k work of development money in themselves. I'd assume that if the kickstarter hits 500k those other projects will likely still be worked on, though they're not going to say that in the kickstarter.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: So, when a "free" unit is unlocked, is it backers choice, or is it the one pictured per faction?
At the end in the pledge manager you will pick an Allegiance for each Allegiance box you are getting. This determines the free models. If you choose Gibbering Hordes, all the free models are the Gibbering Hordes models. If you have a dual commander, you get a freebie per Allegiance box. If you pick Kings Empire and Abyssinia, you'll get Kings Empire and Abyssinia freebies. At Tyrant level you get one of each Allegiance box, so you get a set of freebies for each Allegiance.
No, I understand that, but would an Empire choice then further let you choose WHICH Empire unit you get for free, as per the next stretch-goal?
It's the pictured unit.
Gibbering hordes - Armored Whelks Kings Empire - Field Intelligence Corps Abyssinia - Bathoso Cavalry Cult - Doomseekers
Last time the pledge total dropped to 239k it took days to claw back. This came back in an hour after showing the new stretch goals, with fewer backers. So it seems people are seeing more value now.
-Loki- wrote: Last time the pledge total dropped to 239k it took days to claw back. This came back in an hour after showing the new stretch goals, with fewer backers. So it seems people are seeing more value now.
I think some people (including me) was just waiting for some of the add-on SGs to unlock so that we can add it onto the basic pledge. I was waiting for the Dual Allegiance Commanders at 250K, We will see in the next couple of days if their first major update after their winter break will lead to more backers in the coming days.
The free squads and the Dual Allegiance Commanders are previewed.
Gloried units - number stats improve slightly, but each unit gains more abilities. First time they preview the glory sides of squads in the Kickstarter i think.
I'll be springing for Horomatangi at the pledge manager. We'll likely be mostly playing two Commander games so having a third Commander will be a nice bit of variety.
Considering springing for two more as well. I love the render for the Devouring Eel, so I'll probably throw that in. Now I'm thinking about another squad.
-Loki- wrote: Last time the pledge total dropped to 239k it took days to claw back. This came back in an hour after showing the new stretch goals, with fewer backers. So it seems people are seeing more value now.
I think some people (including me) was just waiting for some of the add-on SGs to unlock so that we can add it onto the basic pledge. I was waiting for the Dual Allegiance Commanders at 250K, We will see in the next couple of days if their first major update after their winter break will lead to more backers in the coming days.
This is an excellent point and one big reason that I have so often harped on the balance between adding value to the pledge, and adding options. Adding value (ideally) motivates new people to pledge; adding options motivates people that have already pledged to increase the value of their existing pledge.
With that in mind, notice what happened in the last, say, 48 hours;
Spoiler:
Overall value of the campaign,
Number of additional backers,
Since the update on Jan. 3rd that opened up all the available add-ons there was an initial surge in pledge value, but that surge did not correspond with a substantial increase in number of backers. Since Jan. 3 the campaign has increased by over $10,700 in value, but is actually in the negative for backer numbers, with a net loss of 6.
Yesterday is exemplary: with $7,484 in pledges but only 4 backers added, while it's not impossible that these 4 pledged almost $1900 each, it's more likely that several hundred people increased their pledges. After all, that entire increase could be accounted for by less then 200 people adding a single $40 troop box to their pledge. For frame of reference, the $160 pledge level currently has 493 backers, the $300 level has 321.
The lack of add-ons really hindered the growth. Had they been present earlier, we'd likely be in the "freebie" territory, thus gaining new backers from increased value added to the pledge.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: The lack of add-ons really hindered the growth. Had they been present earlier, we'd likely be in the "freebie" territory, thus gaining new backers from increased value added to the pledge.
This is why I think we might see a bump at the end. The people that dropped out, or those at the moment who have only pledge $1 to follow it, might have only done so because of the lack of add ons and, being this time of year when people tend to be more concerned with their holidays or returning to work, are just not looking at the emails. When it nears the end, they might give it another look to see what has been unlocked. When they see everything unlocked, they might up their pledge and do some add ons.
I'm increasingly doubtful it'll hit $500k, though I do hope to see it hit $450k for those exclusive models.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: The lack of add-ons really hindered the growth. Had they been present earlier, we'd likely be in the "freebie" territory, thus gaining new backers from increased value added to the pledge.
This is why I think we might see a bump at the end. The people that dropped out, or those at the moment who have only pledge $1 to follow it, might have only done so because of the lack of add ons and, being this time of year when people tend to be more concerned with their holidays or returning to work, are just not looking at the emails. When it nears the end, they might give it another look to see what has been unlocked. When they see everything unlocked, they might up their pledge and do some add ons.
I'm increasingly doubtful it'll hit $500k, though I do hope to see it hit $450k for those exclusive models.
It's very hard to say anything at this ooint: normally I tend to think campaigns rise and fall on their own (and so would point to today's totals), but the next 36 hours or so belong to Kingdom Death. It may technically be a boardgame, but I have little doubt that it is affecting every campaign in this broadly defined area.
Buzzsaw wrote: [Yesterday is exemplary: with $7,484 in pledges but only 4 backers added, while it's not impossible that these 4 pledged almost $1900 each, it's more likely that several hundred people increased their pledges. After all, that entire increase could be accounted for by less then 200 people adding a single $40 troop box to their pledge. For frame of reference, the $160 pledge level currently has 493 backers, the $300 level has 321.
A NET GAIN of 4 backers from what your attached graph shown on that day.. The percentage of backers and their pledges remain proportionally similar compared to the last time I measured, ~31% at Dual Commander/Tyrant and ~38% at Commander Pledge. Fairly similar to the last time I measured (~1 % less backed at Commander pledge).
===
As mentioned in Kickstarter comments, it looks like a single Commander Pledge ($160) could basically act as a proxy 2-player Civil War starter. At the current SGs reached, you have 2 commanders and roughly 43-45 script worth of models and assets to split between two players. So a 1 commander game in which the commanders are bringing slightly less troops/assets as they are allowed. There are two fate decks (from allegiance box, one special edition SG unlocked), The tokens from the Allegiance+acrylic tokens from SG unlocked. Only one ruler and not entirely sure how Stratagems are implemented in the game (required cards?)
Buzzsaw wrote: [Yesterday is exemplary: with $7,484 in pledges but only 4 backers added, while it's not impossible that these 4 pledged almost $1900 each, it's more likely that several hundred people increased their pledges. After all, that entire increase could be accounted for by less then 200 people adding a single $40 troop box to their pledge. For frame of reference, the $160 pledge level currently has 493 backers, the $300 level has 321.
A NET GAIN of 4 backers from what your attached graph shown on that day.. The percentage of backers and their pledges remain proportionally similar compared to the last time I measured, ~31% at Dual Commander/Tyrant and ~38% at Commander Pledge. Fairly similar to the last time I measured (~1 % less backed at Commander pledge).
Forgive me, I'm not sure I understand what your point here is.
akai wrote: As mentioned in Kickstarter comments, it looks like a single Commander Pledge ($160) could basically act as a proxy 2-player Civil War starter. At the current SGs reached, you have 2 commanders and roughly 43-45 script worth of models and assets to split between two players. So a 1 commander game in which the commanders are bringing slightly less troops/assets as they are allowed. There are two fate decks (from allegiance box, one special edition SG unlocked), The tokens from the Allegiance+acrylic tokens from SG unlocked. Only one ruler and not entirely sure how Stratagems are implemented in the game (required cards?)
What would be the point of that though? I don't mean that as a dismissal, but because I regard the virtue of a two player starter (or, at least, the 2P starters I cited before) as both an introduction to the setting and starting people off with experiencing the different factions and their (hopefully balanced) asymmetrical play style and different aesthetics. A 'Civil War' style starter strikes me as a very poor starting point for people that are not familiar with a game and/or invested in the game world in some way.
Buzzsaw wrote: [Yesterday is exemplary: with $7,484 in pledges but only 4 backers added, while it's not impossible that these 4 pledged almost $1900 each, it's more likely that several hundred people increased their pledges. After all, that entire increase could be accounted for by less then 200 people adding a single $40 troop box to their pledge. For frame of reference, the $160 pledge level currently has 493 backers, the $300 level has 321.
A NET GAIN of 4 backers from what your attached graph shown on that day.. The percentage of backers and their pledges remain proportionally similar compared to the last time I measured, ~31% at Dual Commander/Tyrant and ~38% at Commander Pledge. Fairly similar to the last time I measured (~1 % less backed at Commander pledge).
Forgive me, I'm not sure I understand what your point here is.
It could be lost of ten backers pledging $1 and gaining fourteen new backers pledging more than just $1, resulting a NET GAIN of 4 backers. A point is, there are more variables to consider than is represented with the graph you have shown and some of the statements you have made.
akai wrote: As mentioned in Kickstarter comments, it looks like a single Commander Pledge ($160) could basically act as a proxy 2-player Civil War starter. At the current SGs reached, you have 2 commanders and roughly 43-45 script worth of models and assets to split between two players. So a 1 commander game in which the commanders are bringing slightly less troops/assets as they are allowed. There are two fate decks (from allegiance box, one special edition SG unlocked), The tokens from the Allegiance+acrylic tokens from SG unlocked. Only one ruler and not entirely sure how Stratagems are implemented in the game (required cards?)
What would be the point of that though? I don't mean that as a dismissal, but because I regard the virtue of a two player starter (or, at least, the 2P starters I cited before) as both an introduction to the setting and starting people off with experiencing the different factions and their (hopefully balanced) asymmetrical play style and different aesthetics. A 'Civil War' style starter strikes me as a very poor starting point for people that are not familiar with a game and/or invested in the game world in some way.
The point is what I wrote in what you quoted: It maybe possible to play a 2-player game with just the content in a single Commander pledge. Nothing more and nothing less. My posts you quoted are mostly to inform and not to persuade opinions. To be very honest, if I was to teach someone how to play a game, using the same allegiance would be easier to teach instead of trying to explain how different allegiances play and overwhelm people with information. When I don't have to teach.someone how to play the game, I have most of the components to play against someone in a 2 commander per side game (and if more SGs are reached I will have enough components to play a full 2 commnader per side games) within a single Commander Pledge.
Buzzsaw wrote: [Yesterday is exemplary: with $7,484 in pledges but only 4 backers added, while it's not impossible that these 4 pledged almost $1900 each, it's more likely that several hundred people increased their pledges. After all, that entire increase could be accounted for by less then 200 people adding a single $40 troop box to their pledge. For frame of reference, the $160 pledge level currently has 493 backers, the $300 level has 321.
A NET GAIN of 4 backers from what your attached graph shown on that day.. The percentage of backers and their pledges remain proportionally similar compared to the last time I measured, ~31% at Dual Commander/Tyrant and ~38% at Commander Pledge. Fairly similar to the last time I measured (~1 % less backed at Commander pledge).
Forgive me, I'm not sure I understand what your point here is.
It could be lost of ten backers pledging $1 and gaining fourteen new backers pledging more than just $1, resulting a NET GAIN of 4 backers. A point is, there are more variables to consider than is represented with the graph you have shown and some of the statements you have made.
Given that the sentence immediately prior to the one you quote from me is "Since Jan. 3 the campaign has increased by over $10,700 in value, but is actually in the negative for backer numbers, with a net loss of 6", it seems reasonable to imagine I am familiar with the idea of 'NET GAIN'[sic]. While there are, indeed, variable beyond those graphs, you are not providing insight into any of them. Again, unless I am missing something you are saying. I welcome any correction.
akai wrote: As mentioned in Kickstarter comments, it looks like a single Commander Pledge ($160) could basically act as a proxy 2-player Civil War starter. At the current SGs reached, you have 2 commanders and roughly 43-45 script worth of models and assets to split between two players. So a 1 commander game in which the commanders are bringing slightly less troops/assets as they are allowed. There are two fate decks (from allegiance box, one special edition SG unlocked), The tokens from the Allegiance+acrylic tokens from SG unlocked. Only one ruler and not entirely sure how Stratagems are implemented in the game (required cards?)
What would be the point of that though? I don't mean that as a dismissal, but because I regard the virtue of a two player starter (or, at least, the 2P starters I cited before) as both an introduction to the setting and starting people off with experiencing the different factions and their (hopefully balanced) asymmetrical play style and different aesthetics. A 'Civil War' style starter strikes me as a very poor starting point for people that are not familiar with a game and/or invested in the game world in some way.
The point is what I wrote in what you quoted: It maybe possible to play a 2-player game with just the content in a single Commander pledge.Nothing more and nothing less. My posts you quoted are mostly to inform and not to persuade opinions. To be very honest, if I was to teach someone how to play a game, using the same allegiance would be easier to teach instead of trying to explain how different allegiances play and overwhelm people with information. When I don't have to teach.someone how to play the game, I have most of the components to play against someone in a 2 commander per side game (and if more SGs are reached I will have enough components to play a full 2 commnader per side games) within a single Commander Pledge.
It's certainly a fair point that teaching someone the rules in depth is doubtless easier with both people playing the same faction. You will note, however, that such consideration is not one of the virtues I listed in a 2P starter.
I am not saying that your point is wrong; merely that it is not mutually exclusive with my own. It's entirely possible for the contents of a given pledge to function in the manner you suggest while not remedying the particular problem I mention. Put another way, even if I were to stipulate to all of your points being true, none seem relevant to the particular points of discussion.
Had to back out of the Other Side, and I'm bummed about it but such is life.
I need two factions to rope in friends; pushing $350 after shipping is not possible.
I don't want Titans initially, don't need two rule books either. i know it is a rewarding and good package now after the adjustments to rewards, but I'm Simply frustrated with how this was arranged.
I am not saying that your point is wrong; merely that it is not mutually exclusive with my own. It's entirely possible for the contents of a given pledge to function in the manner you suggest while not remedying the particular problem I mention. Put another way, even if I were to stipulate to all of your points being true, none seem relevant to the particular points of discussion.
I have a problem with this: "none seem relevant to the particular points of discussion." When did this thread become just a focus of the particular points you want to discuss? This is not a thread solely about "the virtues you consider to be a good 2P Starter Set." This thread is for discussion of anything related to Wyrd products. The Other Side is Wyrd's product. I posted information that I believe is related and I think may be of interest to people about "The Other Side." My post about single Commander pledge is not directed to your "virtues of 2P Starter Set" and what else. DakkaDakka forum prefers not double posting and I did just that with my single post .
If you believe that what I wrote about The Other Side Commander Pledge is not "relevant to the points of discussion" in a "The Ongoing Wyrd Malifaux News Thread - The Other Side KS is now live!" thread...
akai wrote: @Buzzsaw - If you don't entirely understand, that is fine. I will leave it at that.
On the contrary, you seem to think I'm missing something important. As I'll be writing this up later in great detail, I should very much like to know what pertinent information I am missing.
I am not saying that your point is wrong; merely that it is not mutually exclusive with my own. It's entirely possible for the contents of a given pledge to function in the manner you suggest while not remedying the particular problem I mention. Put another way, even if I were to stipulate to all of your points being true, none seem relevant to the particular points of discussion.
I have a problem with this: "none seem relevant to the particular points of discussion." When did this thread become just a focus of the particular points you want to discuss? This is not a thread solely about "the virtues you consider to be a good 2P Starter Set." This thread is for discussion of anything related to Wyrd products. The Other Side is Wyrd's product. I posted information that I believe is related and I think may be of interest to people about "The Other Side." My post about single Commander pledge is not directed to your "virtues of 2P Starter Set" and what else. DakkaDakka forum prefers not double posting and I did just that with my single post .
If you believe that what I wrote about The Other Side Commander Pledge is not "relevant to the points of discussion" in a "The Ongoing Wyrd Malifaux News Thread - The Other Side KS is now live!" thread...
In other words, we were simply talking past each other. I thought that might be the case, but without inquiry one never knows for certain, eh?
So as to not be critical while being unfair, I did just sit down and finally watch all the gameplay videos and battle-reports. If I am being honest, I DO really like the rules on display, and can definitely see where the foundation is for a competitive/tournament style game are. In the hands of a company that offered better value propositions for its models, and had they shown more FINISHED production models, I would be more excited still.
I know its a Kickstarter self-defeating prophecy to wait for a given value, but IF they can hit 500k, and include those Adjuncts, and Champions, then maybe i'd consider throwing some at this.
Problem is... two factions, with one of each non-freebie add-on for diversity sake, will run you about $600.
The production models look impressive. Better than what I've previously gotten off them in PVC. If I didn't know that was the material I could have sworn those looked like HIPS until they slightly bent the Yarazi wings.
So, couple of things: first, the campaign closed yesterday in the red again,
Spoiler:
Second, am I missing something or is there simply not a lot of chatter going on about this game? I see a lot of the same names 'coffee-housing' in the comments section and not a great deal new or noteworthy, but are the official forums a bit more lively? It just seems... kinda sleepy.
Wyrd games just don't seem to get discussed online. I keep hearing that Malifaux is a popular game (someone said it in this very thread) but online discussion is mostly on the facebook group. Even the official boards I'm lucky to see a couple of dozen posts overnight unless there's some particularly controversial topic or its an errata or Chronicles drop day. Forum discussion just doesn't happen much. Couple that with a game people can't play and I'm not shocked at a lack of online discussion.
"This is a big year for Wyrd. The Other Side Kickstarter is nearing the finish line with a plan to deliver before the year's out. Malifaux will receive a new book with some new miniatures. Through the Breach has an expansion book in the works. All in all, we're looking forward to the Malifaux universe continuing to expand."
Looks like a "Wave 5" Book for Malifaux. I am curious if the Malifaux story progression will make stronger connections to the events happening in the Earth side.
===
More previews of the cards for squads and champions rules:
Shocked to find this on the second page, so figured I would bump it up and comment on something I observed earlier;
Buzzsaw wrote: ...
This is an excellent point and one big reason that I have so often harped on the balance between adding value to the pledge, and adding options. Adding value (ideally) motivates new people to pledge; adding options motivates people that have already pledged to increase the value of their existing pledge.
With that in mind, notice what happened in the last, say, 48 hours;
Spoiler:
Overall value of the campaign,
Number of additional backers,
Since the update on Jan. 3rd that opened up all the available add-ons there was an initial surge in pledge value, but that surge did not correspond with a substantial increase in number of backers. Since Jan. 3 the campaign has increased by over $10,700 in value, but is actually in the negative for backer numbers, with a net loss of 6.
Yesterday is exemplary: with $7,484 in pledges but only 4 backers added, while it's not impossible that these 4 pledged almost $1900 each, it's more likely that several hundred people increased their pledges. After all, that entire increase could be accounted for by less then 200 people adding a single $40 troop box to their pledge. For frame of reference, the $160 pledge level currently has 493 backers, the $300 level has 321.
So, on the 5th (2 two days after revamping the stretch goals, when the above post was made) the campaign had gained $10,700 and 6 backers. At this point, 10 days after that adjusting update, there has been a mixture of growth and shrinkage, with a net gain of $18,756 and 36 more backers. So the overall trend is somewhat positive, but I tend towards my initial assumption: what we're seeing here is largely a change motivated by the already invested increasing their existing pledges with add-ons.
Given that there has been little change to the actual contents of the pledge (at least, not as might be compared to other campaigns at least), and the paucity of discussion overall, I think we're likely looking at a situation very similar to the Through the Breach campaign (that is, an "L" shaped pledge curve). Relative to the value at the start of the campaign, there doesn't seem to be a great deal of change in the base pledge value, which means that people that looked the first day, clicked 'Remind Me Later' are (IMO) unlikely to convert to pledges barring a big change between now and the final 48.
I ended up pulling out my $500 pledge. The game, strictly on its merits, excites me, and I may well end up playing it one day, but as KS deals go... this one feels abyssmal. I pledged by justifying the "value" on the assumption we would easily hit the $500k stretch-goals, and event then only tenuously thought it was a "deal" but now with $500k looking utterly impossible, I feel like there's no reason to give them money early.
That's the problem with the way Wyrd runs their Kickstarters. I understand supporting B&M stores is important to them but they need to give some incentive to people who pledge. Otherwise what's the point?
Looks like a "Wave 5" Book for Malifaux. I am curious if the Malifaux story progression will make stronger connections to the events happening in the Earth side.
Well, the Burning Man was created in Book 3 and Book 4 was largely a time skip to allow the background of TOS to occur with us mostly getting the fallout for each character in the book, so... yes?
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-Loki- wrote: Wyrd games just don't seem to get discussed online. I keep hearing that Malifaux is a popular game (someone said it in this very thread) but online discussion is mostly on the facebook group. Even the official boards I'm lucky to see a couple of dozen posts overnight unless there's some particularly controversial topic or its an errata or Chronicles drop day. Forum discussion just doesn't happen much. Couple that with a game people can't play and I'm not shocked at a lack of online discussion.
The bulk of online discussions tend to center around list designs, which Malifaux naturally rejects to a degree. I think the community takes that to a fault however, and there's a certain segment of the community that sees the game as a bastion of anti-netdecking and legitimately probably does the game a disservice by rejecting discussions on crew selection.
In any case, there's just not a lot of discussion because the players don't have a lot of concrete information to discuss. The game isn't the easiest to document since lists aren't really recorded, but its even difficult to get an idea of things like which masters are played and the like. I think this is one of the primary things holding the game back and unfortunately, much of the community actively works to keep it that way.
I think the MSRP prices are pretty bad. Nevermind the Kickstarter which has been underwhelming but I think this might struggle at retail if they stick to that pricing structure. Units of 9 PVC mini's for $50? take a hike.
LunarSol wrote: The bulk of online discussions tend to center around list designs, which Malifaux naturally rejects to a degree. I think the community takes that to a fault however, and there's a certain segment of the community that sees the game as a bastion of anti-netdecking and legitimately probably does the game a disservice by rejecting discussions on crew selection.
In any case, there's just not a lot of discussion because the players don't have a lot of concrete information to discuss. The game isn't the easiest to document since lists aren't really recorded, but its even difficult to get an idea of things like which masters are played and the like. I think this is one of the primary things holding the game back and unfortunately, much of the community actively works to keep it that way.
Well, there's a reason people tend to avoid netlisting with Malifaux. The objectives for each game are so variable that you just don't take some masters for some schemes and strategy sets. Some masters are pretty generalised so that you can take them for almost any set, and some are so specialised that they excel at two or three are have a miserable time with the rest. The same applies to models. Some are pretty generally great and you'll see them all the time (for examples, Illuminated for Ten Thunders and Neverborn) and some are very specialised and you won't see them outside of very specific circumstances (Sorrows in a Pandora Box Opens list or maybe with Titiania, or when Convict Labour is in the set, but not against opponents with lots of Ca actions). This makes it very hard to netlist, because the circumstances that worked for that person, the combination of schemes, strategy and opponent faction are unlikely to commonly come up enough to base a 'general' netlist around.
I know the why's, I just don't entirely agree. The idea that each unique combination of schemes, strats and opponents having a completely unique optimal combination of models just doesn't play out as well as people want to believe (particularly when there's so little information about an opponent).
That's not to say there isn't specialization in the game and niches that certain models fill, but I'd wager most players would have more success sticking to 2-3 masters or more likely 3-5 total crew builds than they'll have trying to find the perfect combo each game.
What gets lost is the optimization that occurs with iteration over a successful design. Where I see players falter the most is when they swap in a model slightly more ideal for a specific situation but not capable of being the EXACT cost of something removed from the list. You just can't replace an 8 stone model with a 9 stone model in an optimal setup without rethinking absolutely every model and upgrade in the crew in most cases.
Discussing the game definitely has a tricky balance to it as there is a ton of value in adjusting your crew to the scenario before you. That said, I think the game is mature enough that players would do well having some common builds and starting points for what really works.
We are probably an atypical group but as we don't play regularly with Malifaux (or indeed any system as it tends to be a different game each week) we often just use the same models that are "in the case" or which we vaguely know the rules for/ like the models and quite often select them before missions and may just make some minor changes.
It works fine when both players are similar but can be tricky if a visitor is more organised and professional about his selection.
On our forum one of our players was a talking about the benefits of familiarity with models and rules over list tailoring - not just for Malifaux but in general. So he has played basically the same malifaux list every game for a year - just so he knows what he is doing and found it beneficial but also helps him with the game / gave him a challenge which he has enjoyed.
It was mentioned at the bottom of the update the option to substitute a hardback rulebook for $45 pledge manager credit:
"Lastly, I wanted to talk about the rulebook substitution for the Dual Commander pledge. If you are backing at the Dual Commander level, you will be able to substitute one of your rulebooks out for a Kickstarter credit of $45. This can be applied to any add on in the pledge manager."
Yeah it seems on-track to hit 300K which would be a decent turn out all things considered. I am still torn about backing this, I just cant decide if I should back it. I suppose if my brother backs it I will jump in also.
Partially as impetus to slim down my back stock, partially as I'll have at least a few other local players to throwdown with, partially as Dec 2017 is a decent time in my build schedule for the next year, but a lot because the game looks genuinely really interesting to me. I feel like I'm repeating myself, but this is the game I would have picked up post-WHFB, when I jumped into Malifaux + AOS instead.
ClockworkChaos wrote: Yeah it seems on-track to hit 300K which would be a decent turn out all things considered. I am still torn about backing this, I just cant decide if I should back it. I suppose if my brother backs it I will jump in also.
Pledge for a buck if you're on the fence. If nothing else you'll get some info ont he design process as they move toward fulfillment.
Just hit 300K, so a free adjunct added now . The special edition Syndicate models are now being offered as add-ons for those that have pledged Dual and Tyrant ($25 each, similar to pricing of the limited edition stuff offered through their online store)..
Glad to see another freebie thrown in for backers. I feel this is another case of "too little too late" where Wyrd just doesnt get how to run a solid kickstarter. I will say it was done better than TTB, which had almost naked contempt for the platform. Maybe third time's the charm.
I backed for a buck to see the progress, but wasnt feeling this one. Retail pricing still seems too high... seriously, $55 for a bike?! $15-20 for a single restic 30mm guy? I dont like the pre-assembled aspect, since I've already seen mold lines on their production models which will be a pain to clean.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Glad to see another freebie thrown in for backers. I feel this is another case of "too little too late" where Wyrd just doesnt get how to run a solid kickstarter. I will say it was done better than TTB, which had almost naked contempt for the platform. Maybe third time's the charm.
I backed for a buck to see the progress, but wasnt feeling this one. Retail pricing still seems too high... seriously, $55 for a bike?! $15-20 for a single restic 30mm guy? I dont like the pre-assembled aspect, since I've already seen mold lines on their production models which will be a pain to clean.
Given all the other problems here, that last one seems like the biggest on to me - just what is up with their 'retail pricing' model?!?
I'll be honest, the pricing model isn't great. But watching the videos, like Malifaux you're unlikely to buy most units more than once, and they priced Malifaux high based on that same idea. The champions and adjuncts are the the only exception so their price also being high is disappointing.
I'm not seeing a problem with the quality. Prebuilt adds some issues with cleanup but the production models look on par with a lot of their HIPS stuff, which to be fair was never super detailed.
-Loki- wrote: I'll be honest, the pricing model isn't great. But watching the videos, like Malifaux you're unlikely to buy most units more than once, and they priced Malifaux high based on that same idea. The champions and adjuncts are the the only exception so their price also being high is disappointing.
Malifaux is $11 for a single 30mm guy in HIPS. The adjunct/commanders are $15 - $18, so a 50%-75% more for a similar model in a worse material. The rhino/eel are $50 in kickstarter, so who knows how much they'll be retail for maybe a 60mm based model! That the prices don't really compare favorably to Malifaux is a real issue IMO.
If we want to do a comparison to other games with preassembled miniatures of this type, the pricing really isn't great compared to Imperial Assault's prices.
Absolutionis wrote: Didn't they mention that there would be a way to get TOTS models on sprue sometime in the future? I'll wait for that.
Not on a sprue, just the unassembled PVC. It'll be only available direct from Wyrd, so you'll be looking at full MRSP too.
TheWaspinator wrote: If we want to do a comparison to other games with preassembled miniatures of this type, the pricing really isn't great compared to Imperial Assault's prices.
The production models that they've shown, however, look much better than Imperial Assault models which with a couple of exceptions are very soft on details. The material is also much, much bendier than they're showing with TOS, which has a little give so it doesn't snap when dropped but won't bend to almost 90 degrees like the IA weapons.
-Loki- wrote: I'll be honest, the pricing model isn't great. But watching the videos, like Malifaux you're unlikely to buy most units more than once, and they priced Malifaux high based on that same idea. The champions and adjuncts are the the only exception so their price also being high is disappointing.
Malifaux is $11 for a single 30mm guy in HIPS. The adjunct/commanders are $15 - $18, so a 50%-75% more for a similar model in a worse material. The rhino/eel are $50 in kickstarter, so who knows how much they'll be retail for maybe a 60mm based model! That the prices don't really compare favorably to Malifaux is a real issue IMO.
For 2017 new single 30mm base Malifaux models are now $15 I think (Allison Dade is listed as $15). For the boxes of ToS 9 models, they are cheaper per model than Malifaux regular troops. So I think the The Other Side pricing is within the same range as their Malifaux line (not more expensive).
Absolutionis wrote: Didn't they mention that there would be a way to get TOTS models on sprue sometime in the future? I'll wait for that.
Not on a sprue, just the unassembled PVC. It'll be only available direct from Wyrd, so you'll be looking at full MRSP too.
TheWaspinator wrote: If we want to do a comparison to other games with preassembled miniatures of this type, the pricing really isn't great compared to Imperial Assault's prices.
The production models that they've shown, however, look much better than Imperial Assault models which with a couple of exceptions are very soft on details. The material is also much, much bendier than they're showing with TOS, which has a little give so it doesn't snap when dropped but won't bend to almost 90 degrees like the IA weapons.
Disagree on being better than Imperial Assault/Conan. Look at that gibbering hordes guy. No scales, minimal texture, rounded features.
Compare the eel/rhino to what $50 will buy you from Mierce and its really apparent they are charging way too much for the quality of their minis on this one. Mierce's 10 man metal units are also $50.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: So, they think it's a deal because they've raised all their other prices so high?
Incoming new products looks to have increased in price and not that older products have their price increased
The kickstarter pledges are a great deal for those that already know they want to play The Other Side with Wyrd's miniatures. There really is no doubt about that. To get people who might be interested, the price as with almost every single tabletop miniature war game out there is pretty expensive. I don't think Wyrd has promoted The Other Side to suggest that it would be a cheap war game to get into. As the rules and unit stats for the game will be free online to peruse, people can try playing the game for free later on.
Absolutionis wrote: Didn't they mention that there would be a way to get TOTS models on sprue sometime in the future? I'll wait for that.
Not on a sprue, just the unassembled PVC. It'll be only available direct from Wyrd, so you'll be looking at full MRSP too.
TheWaspinator wrote: If we want to do a comparison to other games with preassembled miniatures of this type, the pricing really isn't great compared to Imperial Assault's prices.
The production models that they've shown, however, look much better than Imperial Assault models which with a couple of exceptions are very soft on details. The material is also much, much bendier than they're showing with TOS, which has a little give so it doesn't snap when dropped but won't bend to almost 90 degrees like the IA weapons.
Disagree on being better than Imperial Assault/Conan. Look at that gibbering hordes guy. No scales, minimal texture, rounded features.
Compare the eel/rhino to what $50 will buy you from Mierce and its really apparent they are charging way too much for the quality of their minis on this one. Mierce's 10 man metal units are also $50.
Heck, compare their grunts.
vs
These sure look like board game pieces to me.
You're both strawmanning and being intentionally misleading.
First, I never said Conan. It wasn't even in the quote that I quoted. So stop that.
Second, you're comparing a resin master (you can tell because it's got things like metal pins for the arrow shaft and additional sculpted details life arrow fletches). This is not the model you will receive.
The TOS model shown is from a batch of first run production miniatures. This is how they will look when they reach customers. So lets compare them to something I did say they look better than - a production quality Imperial Assault miniature.
Lets also look at something else I said it looks similar in quality to - a Wyrd HIPS model.
I feel quite comfortable saying they are pretty close to Wyrds HIPS models, and much better than Imperial Assault models.
Wyrd's prices are BARELY acceptable when I need 7-10 to play a full sized game... but with model counts going significantly higher, their pricing scheme is laughable.
In an age where even GW realizes you need discounted bundles (ala Start Collecting which can be sold at FURTHER discounts by stores/online), you know you're approaching sheer madness asking for even more.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Wyrd's prices are BARELY acceptable when I need 7-10 to play a full sized game... but with model counts going significantly higher, their pricing scheme is laughable.
In an age where even GW realizes you need discounted bundles (ala Start Collecting which can be sold at FURTHER discounts by stores/online), you know you're approaching sheer madness asking for even more.
That's exactly what the Allegiance boxes are. $125us gets you a Commander, 3 squads, a Fate deck and all the tokens you need to play that faction. That Commander and 3 squads is a full 1 commander list (25 scrip).
While GW's 'start collecting' boxes are cheaper at $85, they offer much less value for money when you consider the total points in the list. Games Workshop prices these because they expect you're going to buy 2-3 of them and either toss the additional HQ's or convert them into something else. Wyrd priced the Allegiance boxes like they did because they know you'll only buy them once. There's no reason to buy a second.
This is the same logic behind their Malifaux models. They're priced pretty high compared to what's on the market, higher than GW in some cases. But outside of very few circumstances, you're only buyong them once. They don't get you as a repeat customer buying that box od Bunraku 2-3 times to get the intended amount you'd actually want in game. Likewise, looking at the cards and how the game works, they likely don't expect you'll want, say, an extra squad of Striped Skulkers or Karkinoi. You can because the game mechanics allow you, but that's going to be corner cases like people buying two boxes of Mindless Zombies to spam them with Nicodem.
Absolutionis wrote: Didn't they mention that there would be a way to get TOTS models on sprue sometime in the future? I'll wait for that.
Not on a sprue, just the unassembled PVC. It'll be only available direct from Wyrd, so you'll be looking at full MRSP too.
TheWaspinator wrote: If we want to do a comparison to other games with preassembled miniatures of this type, the pricing really isn't great compared to Imperial Assault's prices.
The production models that they've shown, however, look much better than Imperial Assault models which with a couple of exceptions are very soft on details. The material is also much, much bendier than they're showing with TOS, which has a little give so it doesn't snap when dropped but won't bend to almost 90 degrees like the IA weapons.
Disagree on being better than Imperial Assault/Conan. Look at that gibbering hordes guy. No scales, minimal texture, rounded features.
Compare the eel/rhino to what $50 will buy you from Mierce and its really apparent they are charging way too much for the quality of their minis on this one. Mierce's 10 man metal units are also $50.
Heck, compare their grunts.
vs
These sure look like board game pieces to me.
You're both strawmanning and being intentionally misleading.
And you're white knighting hard. I'm comparing similar products on the market. You just don't like it because it shows how bad Wyrd's pricing and sculpts have become.
First, I never said Conan. It wasn't even in the quote that I quoted. So stop that.
So we can't bring in examples of other board game minis with better detail unless you approve of the comparison?
Second, you're comparing a resin master (you can tell because it's got things like metal pins for the arrow shaft and additional sculpted details life arrow fletches). This is not the model you will receive.
Actually that's pretty much what it will look like when you get it, if you own any of their metals. Sharp lines, texture on the clothing/armor, and an actual face with detail and character instead of the same copy paste CAD one Wyrd has done since they got rid of their real sculptors.
The TOS model shown is from a batch of first run production miniatures. This is how they will look when they reach customers. So lets compare them to something I did say they look better than - a production quality Imperial Assault miniature.
Lets also look at something else I said it looks similar in quality to - a Wyrd HIPS model.
[url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/851901-.html][/url
I feel quite comfortable saying they are pretty close to Wyrds HIPS models, and much better than Imperial Assault models.
Agreed they look like their generally low detail HIPS models. Disagree that they look better than Imperial Assault, Conan, Zombicide BP or any of the newest generation board game pieces.
Having tried Wyrd's PVC, unless they've improved, it's definitely worse than their HIPS, and either way, you need to deal with horrible PVC flash cleaning. If they had the same detail in HIPS as their PVC, I'd be much more tempted by thir new game.
Re: the mierce comparison, I almost objected, but then didn't, because 2 things:
1- they're around the same price per model based on those numbers
2- mierce in my experience has very crisp casts, so that's not much of a difference between their master and their result.
I'll put up some comparisons to the Tortoise from the Twisted set later. It's gotten better since Aoinius.
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Bossk_Hogg wrote: And you're white knighting hard. I'm comparing similar products on the market. You just don't like it because it shows how bad Wyrd's pricing and sculpts have become.
Sure I'm white knighting. I like the product. Not everyone needs to be negative all the time.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: So we can't bring in examples of other board game minis with better detail unless you approve of the comparison?
Sure you can. But you responded to me as if I'd brought them up and then posted a picture to prove me wrong, when the only other game I brought up was Imperial Assault. You were straw manning.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Actually that's pretty much what it will look like when you get it, if you own any of their metals. Sharp lines, texture on the clothing/armor, and an actual face with detail and character instead of the same copy paste CAD one Wyrd has done since they got rid of their real sculptors.
I apologise. I thought you were comparing them to other PVC models.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Agreed they look like their generally low detail HIPS models. Disagree that they look better than Imperial Assault, Conan, Zombicide BP or any of the newest generation board game pieces.
That's fair enough if you don't think so. But I'm looking at those very board game peices in front of me, and looking at the production PVC models from TOS, and I'm seeing better quality. Guess it'll be egg on my face when I get mine if the quality isn't up to those photos. Imperial Assault figures in particular are pretty bad. Faces are almost non-existant. Zombiecide... eh. It depends which one. Seasons 1, 2 and 3 are pretty bad. Black Plague are exceptionally good and good enough to be considered outside of the realm of board game peices.
As promosed, Tortoise and the Carver (I chose the Carver because it's got similar detailing to its clothes as the Tortoise's pants)..
While you can see a mold line on the Tortoise, it's pretty easy to remove. What you don't have to contend with is seams, which are ever present and horrible to deal with on their HIPS models.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: with that kind of logic, I am honestly surprised Malifaux is still going strong.
It's funny how armchair critics tend to have different opinions to company owners that run their companies well, isn't it.
If you want to for others' education, that's nice, but it won't convince me... after feeling burned by the lack of support for puppet wars, the price of showdown for little content and visuals, and the "this pvc is solid!" promise of aionus, I'm still playing malifaux with what I enjoy and a smaller, tighter collection that I don't expect to give up any time in the future short of an edition I don't have the energy to follow, but not ready to branch into another, more expensive game.
If it turns out this game roars out of the gate and is awesome, without a price this great ever later, I might regret it, but I'm not taking the risk.
edit: having seen the pics, looks like they got smarter about what to make, not better at making it (which isn't saying smarter is bad, just not as awesome as some of the PVC people have turned out). organic shapes are the easy choice for PVC. And not sure what you mean about seams re: HIPS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh, you mean gaps between parts. why aren't you using model cement? It's a stronger bond and covers those up easily.
You seriously don't see that seam running down the side of his leg and torso? That requires filling with plastic putty. How about Lord Chompy Bits? I actually was partway through painting him before I noticed I missed these in my hours of seam filling.
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Or maybe Miss Ery? Down the side and right through the face.
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Surely something smaller wouldn't have it? Oh wait. Not even flush with her shirt.
Spoiler:
Maybe their newer stuff got better? Oh.
Spoiler:
Not that I dislike their HIPS models. Far from it. But every material has its issues to deal with when regarding construction and/or cleanup. HIPS models have join seams. It's unavoidable, but some companies are better at minimising them or running them through more logical areas. GW is good at this. Metal is harder to clean up, requiring files and such, requires pinning or scoring joing before gluing. Resin has a higher quantity of miscasts and airbubbles. PVC is harder to clean up and requires it to be done with a knife.
Until someone manages to cost effectively cast a HIPS model as a single peice, it's just something we'll have to deal with.
spiralingcadaver wrote: oh, you mean gaps between parts. why aren't you using model cement? It's a stronger bond and covers those up easily.
Aha, terminology misunderstanding. I do, but I don't fill it until it spews out when the parts are pressed together. That just creates a mess and is harder to clean up. It's neater to use less cement and fill it with plastic putty (or liquid green stuff or something similar), which you can then wipe away the excess.
Did you see my response, re: plastic cement? Sometimes they make stupid-small pieces and very rarely they actually get a join wrong, but I've got basically no complaints about their HIPS.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Did you see my response, re: plastic cement? Sometimes they make stupid-small pieces and very rarely they actually get a join wrong, but I've got basically no complaints about their HIPS.
I did. As I said in that reply, I've got a different method of filling seams which I find is neater, but more time consuming.
Well, sorry, but I don't think it's their fault that you're using more difficult tools. I mean, if you used an electric sander and 16 grit pads to clean your minis, it'd be hard to clean them well, but that wouldn't be the mini company's fault.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Well, sorry, but I don't think it's their fault that you're using more difficult tools. I mean, if you used an electric sander and 16 grit pads to clean your minis, it'd be hard to clean them well, but that wouldn't be the mini company's fault.
I'm using a product designed to fill gaps in HIPS models to fill gaps in HIPS models. I'm not sure why you're picking a fight over this? Sure, it's longer than overfilling with plastic cement so it spews out when you join the peices together, but the end result is also neater.
It doesn't matter how you do it with a HIPS model, it's something you need to do. Some ways are easier than others, but the goal is the same - to not have gaps.
Man, you're the one with the sprawling posts, who just suggested I don't know how to build things. I'm not some 10 year old pouring glue all over my details. I use a bottle with a needle applicator and it works plenty well with no effort, and you're the one griping about it being a pain.
ImAGeek wrote: The seams in Wyrds HIPS are pretty bad. You don't get seams like that with GW stuff. Is it a different plastic?
Pretty sure it's the same stuff. It just comes down to knowing how to cut the model for casting and accepting that some areas might been to lose detail to keep the part count low. GW got very good at hiding the seams. They're there, but they're along things like armour joins, not just right up the side of the model. It's worse on Malifaux models because they're reluctant to sacrifice detail or pose for ease of casting, so where GW will cut, say, legs to be one peice for both, Wyrd will have two or more peices to preserve something that would require sliding core in a plastic mold. Or GW will just accept the lower detail where it's causing complications.
I like both outcomes. I dislike GWs model aesthetic these days but their skill at cutting models and tooling molds is pretty great. Wyrds models can be a pain to build but I prefer the end result.
Latest update for The Other Side, with the pledge manager up, they have made now 377k so Champion models are free to the Commander and above pledges now. Pledge manager remains open to April. so hoping they can reached Binh and Thrace.
i have tons of Wyrd's metal base toppers...
i really like them plastic ones look even better...
i can see myself getting all of them...
after working with Wyrd's multi-part HIPS models, they put me off buying their minis...
i'll just stick to my old metal ones...
those base toppers will definitely earn Wyrd some of my money again, though...
Another email from Wyrd, post kickstarter tracking for stretch goals has exceeded 400k. 3rd adjunct is in. Still about a month to go before they close up the pledge manager, so we may hit 450k for the free LE model as well.
More production miniature previews - Cults Stalking Portals. This is fresh out of production casting apparently after Aaron spent some time throwing them at a wall.
The portal miniature looks great for what it is, but I hope there is more than one sculpt. Malifaux has been pretty good at multiple sculpts for even their larger miniatures. Especially in a game where you're required to take three on a single base, repeat sculpts would look really bad.
There's three sculpts, so each base will have 3 unique models. That was the first they had run through production. Most other units are 5 unique sculpts across 9-10 models (5 sculpts, 9/10 models), but Cult of the Burning man squads are enough unique sculpts that each entire squad will be all unique models (10 models, 10 sculpts). They had a lot of fun sculpting Burning Man stuff.
Absolutionis wrote: The portal miniature looks great for what it is, but I hope there is more than one sculpt. Malifaux has been pretty good at multiple sculpts for even their larger miniatures. Especially in a game where you're required to take three on a single base, repeat sculpts would look really bad.
Yup 3 unique sculpts:
There is a humanoid face in one of them, but I think its supposed to be some giant or something...not sure on the scale.
ImAGeek wrote: The seams in Wyrds HIPS are pretty bad. You don't get seams like that with GW stuff. Is it a different plastic?
Pretty sure it's the same stuff.
It isn't. Wyrd's kits are pure polystyrene which is fairly brittle. GW has a different formula they use which makes their plastic more flexible. Try bending a long section of sprue of each type and you'll see what I mean.
As for the seams, I've never had a problem with Wyrd's kits fitting properly. Wyrd's kits can be quite unintuitive as to how parts are supposed to connect and that's likely the source of most problems but once you get the part oriented correctly the fit is usually precise. I've not seen how their PVC kits fit together so I can't comment on those.
On their HIPS, yeah, using plastic cement and I've never had a problem with their seams.
Their PVC is, eh, not amazing. Suffers from the same stuff most does like shallow detail and a little shrinkage issues, rather than being epic like Journey's was.
Breotan wrote: Wyrd's kits can be quite unintuitive as to how parts are supposed to connect and that's likely the source of most problems but once you get the part oriented correctly the fit is usually precise.
Some of the earlier plastics I thought had crappy gaps and misaligned parts. I put together some of the Arcanist critters Marcus comes with and NONE of them aligned. It was horrible. Waste of money. Almost put me off Malifaux completely. Probably should've contacted Wyrd about it, but that was quite some time ago...
however I've built quite a lot of the 2E plastics and I've had no issues with putting things together. Don't even bother checking online for how to get it all built even.
Haven't had problems with recent kits misaligning, but their kits have always been better off with instructions. I recall assembling an Oiran's head before the earrings, and I had to slice the earrings-bit apart to get it to fit. Mouse from Ironsides's box also needed to be assembled in the correct way. Yan Lo's beard and the Freikorps Trunk are infamous for being difficult to assemble.
However, having recently assembled the Shadow Emissary and Rollins Black's box, Wyrd have gotten so much better. Everything fits perfectly with zero problems. Their kits are simply more advanced than the typical GW kits with large flat portions.
Speaking of their plastic, I was assembling a Brutal Emissary last night, and ye gads, the cage assembly was just frustrating. I tried putting the cage bars on first and then putting the man inside. Didn't work very well. Tried putting man inside then cage bars, also didn't work very well. And the multiple layers of the cage were just too annoying to glue.
Oh Brutal Emissary. It's actually a clever little bit of modeling right up until you realize HIS FACE IS PRESSED AGAINST THE BARS. That little bit essentially makes it impossible to paint the prisoner separately very effectively. I was able to do it by keeping the top arm unattached and basically not painting half his face:
spiralingcadaver wrote: Wyrd has issues with prioritizing no undercuts over a sane number of pieces...
Can you blame them? The moment they simplify a mini and leave one blurr-filled undercut zone all they'll hear is nonstop griping about metal minis, and why did they stop making metal minis, and plastic is inferior, and at least resin is a real medium, blah blah bull blah. Malifaux has amazing quality, and at this point a reputation for complex plastic minis that sets them apart. There are plenty of other manufacturers who sell simple easy-fit plastics.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Wyrd has issues with prioritizing no undercuts over a sane number of pieces...
Can you blame them? The moment they simplify a mini and leave one blurr-filled undercut zone all they'll hear is nonstop griping about metal minis, and why did they stop making metal minis, and plastic is inferior, and at least resin is a real medium, blah blah bull blah. Malifaux has amazing quality, and at this point a reputation for complex plastic minis that sets them apart. There are plenty of other manufacturers who sell simple easy-fit plastics.
It's a lot of fiddliness for little payoff compared to metal/resin or simpler design IMO. Most of their humans have the same generic copy/paste face and weird long legs, and they suffer from overly smooth surfaces you basically have to paint the texture on. There's no fething good reason a goblin's mullet should be multiple pieces.
I find the fiddliness to be a positive. Assembly is a delightful puzzle. Not for everyone, of course. That's why Wyrd's "The Other Side" has preassembled models along with a few special edition Malifaux models.
Haven't had the pleasure of messing with the infamous Yan Lo's beard, but the Nightmare Edition boxes of Collette and McCabe have been some of the most fun I've had putting things together.
I've assembled Yan Lo's beard. It's really overrated at this point. The issue is more just than if you don't know its there, you might not even notice it on the sprue. Luckily, infamy has largely resolved that problem.
Yes, I can, and do. Easily more than 3/4 of their parts are fine, but some are just impractical, overly small, not worth it, or otherwise poorly planned. There are plenty of times where a slight correction could have made something one fewer pieces, and you can't blame perfectionism, since they do have plenty of weird things with scale or where an angle didn't translate well. They prioritize undercuts and/or not fixing undercuts over fewer pieces, and sometimes I think it's detrimental and unnecessary.
Again, mostly I think it's fine, but sometimes it's just not worth it, especially when a sharp hobby knife and minimal effort could have achieved the same thing on small pieces, for those perfectionists who demand those nice undercuts.
spiralingcadaver wrote: Wyrd has issues with prioritizing no undercuts over a sane number of pieces...
Can you blame them? The moment they simplify a mini and leave one blurr-filled undercut zone all they'll hear is nonstop griping about metal minis, and why did they stop making metal minis, and plastic is inferior, and at least resin is a real medium, blah blah bull blah. Malifaux has amazing quality, and at this point a reputation for complex plastic minis that sets them apart. There are plenty of other manufacturers who sell simple easy-fit plastics.
It's a lot of fiddliness for little payoff compared to metal/resin or simpler design IMO. Most of their humans have the same generic copy/paste face and weird long legs, and they suffer from overly smooth surfaces you basically have to paint the texture on. There's no fething good reason a goblin's mullet should be multiple pieces.
Au contraire. Not having to deal with metal/resin is the payoff, and it is a huge payoff. The long legs and smooth surfaces are a stylistic choice. They deliver texture when they want to. If you don't like Malifaux minis, there must be thousands of resin or metal minis you can buy if that's your thing.
Yes, I can, and do. Easily more than 3/4 of their parts are fine, but some are just impractical, overly small, not worth it, or otherwise poorly planned. There are plenty of times where a slight correction could have made something one fewer pieces, and you can't blame perfectionism, since they do have plenty of weird things with scale or where an angle didn't translate well. They prioritize undercuts and/or not fixing undercuts over fewer pieces, and sometimes I think it's detrimental and unnecessary.
Again, mostly I think it's fine, but sometimes it's just not worth it, especially when a sharp hobby knife and minimal effort could have achieved the same thing on small pieces, for those perfectionists who demand those nice undercuts.
Any specifics come to mind? I just haven't had any Malifaux experiences that were frustrating rather than challenging...yet.
I find them largely great, but I agree that far too often there's a lot of overly flat surfaces that don't paint up that well unless you do a lot of freehand work.
Bossk_Hogg wrote: It's a lot of fiddliness for little payoff compared to metal/resin or simpler design IMO. Most of their humans have the same generic copy/paste face and weird long legs, and they suffer from overly smooth surfaces you basically have to paint the texture on. There's no fething good reason a goblin's mullet should be multiple pieces.
Au contraire. Not having to deal with metal/resin is the payoff, and it is a huge payoff. The long legs and smooth surfaces are a stylistic choice. They deliver texture when they want to. If you don't like Malifaux minis, there must be thousands of resin or metal minis you can buy if that's your thing.
Better than the ridiculously stubby Dorf legs of Warmahordes.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Any specifics come to mind? I just haven't had any Malifaux experiences that were frustrating rather than challenging...yet.
A few models have 4-part heads; there's at least one guild model whose badge is a separate piece; the zombie chihuahua is must hold some sort of record for most pieces by mass; one of the hollow waifs has two bracelets that are separate pieces; a lot of the gremlins have pieces so small and thin that I worry about touching them. Those are some of the ones that come to mind, regarding kits that I believe should have never been designed the way they were.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Any specifics come to mind? I just haven't had any Malifaux experiences that were frustrating rather than challenging...yet.
A few models have 4-part heads; there's at least one guild model whose badge is a separate piece; the zombie chihuahua is must hold some sort of record for most pieces by mass; one of the hollow waifs has two bracelets that are separate pieces; a lot of the gremlins have pieces so small and thin that I worry about touching them. Those are some of the ones that come to mind, regarding kits that I believe should have never been designed the way they were.
Well, I don't buy gremlins or undead minis, so I guess I've been lucky on that score. I'll concede then.
So it's been a while since this threads been updated.
Gencon is approaching, and that means Nightmare and Miss models. Wyrd have previewed them.
Curiosity killed the Cat - Nightmare Hamelin crew who is now a crazy cat lady. Nathan Caroland also confirmed Black Friday will have a 'cat herders' box, which will be an alternate Brotherhood of the Rat box in theme with this.
spiralingcadaver wrote: A few models have 4-part heads; there's at least one guild model whose badge is a separate piece; the zombie chihuahua is must hold some sort of record for most pieces by mass; one of the hollow waifs has two bracelets that are separate pieces; a lot of the gremlins have pieces so small and thin that I worry about touching them. Those are some of the ones that come to mind, regarding kits that I believe should have never been designed the way they were.
Yeah it's so bad my partner won't even bother trying to assemble her stuff anymore - one too many infuriating carpet searches for pieces even smaller than the gates.
I don't even bother putting much effort into the modelling and painting side of the game now, it's just going to break further down the line anyway, with so many fragile pieces. At this point I consider them more like board game miniatures.
On topic, I think the Nightmare Hamelin is pretty entertaining and well thought out, as always. And I really like Miss Deed (Taelor is nice but a bit wonky and trapped in an Outcasts box )
As for MFX models themselves, one of the reasons I've mostly moved on from the game is that I realized I don't like building or painting Wyrd's plastics. I know plenty of people like one or both parts of that, but it was just becoming frustrating for me - frankly it's having to fill SO many gaps and seams that were driving me crazy.
Part of the reason I'm looking forward to TOS is that it's prebuilt, which is a thing I never thought I'd say!
I love Wyrd's models, but there is the odd frustrating experience.(the standing Guild Austringer whose brid's legs are separate pieces and barely align with the grooves on the arm...)
Definitely prefer it to metal or resin, though and I kind of like that it ensures only dedicated hobbyists bother...
It's really frustrating, because Malifaux looks so epic with tall terrain, but every time I get a seriously vertical table (or even central element), I get so aggravated by how terribly the rules support elevation.
We don't know what Wanyudo is for. It's a Yokai (so in Malifaux, an Oni), so that could be Ten Thunders or the upcoming Kimon allegiance for The Other Side.
One annoying thing is the cost will be inflated by being interior detailed but honestly I've found Malifaux is ill-suited for interior combat. With each model only generally getting 2 actions per turn, you don't want to waste those by moving up stairs to get into a building unless it's a safe spot for a scheme or strategy score or it's the fastest way to the other side.
Biggest draw is it's going to be HIPS, which is pretty rare these days with everyone going MDF, PVC/resin or plasticard.
I'd guess the Wanyudou is Malifaux related. Don't think there's any overtly mythological Japanese factions in it.
That begs the question where would it belong? I'd guess Ten Thunders due to the amount of yokai already there, but I could see it fitting in with Rezzers and Neverborn as well...
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I'd guess the Wanyudou is Malifaux related. Don't think there's any overtly mythological Japanese factions in it.
That begs the question where would it belong? I'd guess Ten Thunders due to the amount of yokai already there, but I could see it fitting in with Rezzers and Neverborn as well...
If it gets the Oni characteristic (which it will being a Yokai) it'll be at least dual faction with Thunders, purely so Asami can use it (similar to Bunraku perhaps?)
highlord tamburlaine wrote: I'd guess the Wanyudou is Malifaux related. Don't think there's any overtly mythological Japanese factions in it.
That begs the question where would it belong? I'd guess Ten Thunders due to the amount of yokai already there, but I could see it fitting in with Rezzers and Neverborn as well...
Ten Thunders are Japan/China/Vietnam. They have a fair number of Oni already.
If you mean The Other Side not having a Japanese faction, Wyrd teased 2 at Gencon. The Three Kingdoms (the aforementioned Japan/China/Vietnam) and the Kimon (Oni). The split is because Three Kingdoms belong to Earthside, and the Kimon beling to Malifauxside.
Not sure of any Oni currently belonging to Neverborn. Ressers have Jakuuna Ubume and Outcasts have Ama No Zako, so Ressers or Outcasts is possible if it's a Malifaux model.
One annoying thing is the cost will be inflated by being interior detailed but honestly I've found Malifaux is ill-suited for interior combat. With each model only generally getting 2 actions per turn, you don't want to waste those by moving up stairs to get into a building unless it's a safe spot for a scheme or strategy score or it's the fastest way to the other side.
This. I play with Micro Art Studios' XIX Century range of buildings which have decetn interiors, and have never used them (except for the warehouse, but that's so big and open it's like an exterior area anyway).
Maybe if the third ed deals with elevated and interior terrain better I would, though.
Even if they do better elevated rules, it's still a game about scoring points and preventing the scoring of points. Having 2AP worth of model move into a building is only worth it if you can go in there to score a point (like, it's on the center line and you took A Line in the Sand). It would take too much effort for the opponent to consider removing it or moving up there to kill the model, because they've got their own points to score.
I do use one interior - I have the Plastcraft Trainstation. But it's used exactly as above - people only go in it when they can score inside it. Bonus if the model doing it is Incorporeal so they don't have to bother moving to a door. Otherwise it's just treated as blocking terrain.
@Mikes, please don't mention a 3rd Ed. We JUST got back into the game, and caught up on book releases, card decks, etc... The last thing I want is another reboot, as the last time it happened we stepped away for three years, and our large local community imploded. :-p
I actually love the state of the game right now, and don't want a big shake-up.
My only pet peeves are minor, personal ones, like being out of the game around Gencon and missing a cool alt-crew for my beloved Hamelin, which I can't even find on Ebay.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: @Mikes, please don't mention a 3rd Ed. We JUST got back into the game, and caught up on book releases, card decks, etc... The last thing I want is another reboot, as the last time it happened we stepped away for three years, and our large local community imploded. :-p
Lol, sorry. I only brought it up really because the Schemes and Stones podcast discussed this issue last week and big topic for them was actually vertical rules and interiors.
The game doesn't need a third edition. The most it needs is a 2.5 edition where they clean up some things and maybe fix the vantage point rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
akai wrote: "It's from the Emeline Bellerose story/Beastiary section in the "Under Quarantine" TTB book. I just read it for the first time the other day!
Evil Japanese landowner spirit who comes back from the dead to continue to mess with his tenants. "
The Japanese have some wonderfully weird ghosts and demons. Akaname, which are dual Ten Thunders and Gremlins, are just as hilariously weird.
spiralingcadaver wrote: It's really frustrating, because Malifaux looks so epic with tall terrain, but every time I get a seriously vertical table (or even central element), I get so aggravated by how terribly the rules support elevation.
Malifaux's elevation rules are abysmal, but I've not figured out how to really make elevation work under traditional model activation rules. Infinity gets away with a lot simply because everything has a ranged attack and a single model can move very far in a single turn if you're willing to put the orders in. In many games, models really don't move all that far across the table over the course of the entire game, so spending an entire turns worth of movement to move upwards, generally costing you the necessary horizontal movement required to reach objectives. Not screwing over melee models is incredibly hard, and you're really stuck if you make flying things with guns.
spiralingcadaver wrote: It's really frustrating, because Malifaux looks so epic with tall terrain, but every time I get a seriously vertical table (or even central element), I get so aggravated by how terribly the rules support elevation.
Malifaux's elevation rules are abysmal, but I've not figured out how to really make elevation work under traditional model activation rules. Infinity gets away with a lot simply because everything has a ranged attack and a single model can move very far in a single turn if you're willing to put the orders in. In many games, models really don't move all that far across the table over the course of the entire game, so spending an entire turns worth of movement to move upwards, generally costing you the necessary horizontal movement required to reach objectives. Not screwing over melee models is incredibly hard, and you're really stuck if you make flying things with guns.
The problem with the elevation rules is they started with a simple system (height stats for every model and piece of terrain so there's no ambiguity) and then added TLOS for being on a higher level. A better way, IMO, would just be if you're elevated, models don't get the benefit of non-Dense cover. So walls and fences, you're considered to be seeing over them enough to negate the penalty, but forests and fog and such are not affected.
There was no reason to complicate the system with TLOS.
The Guilty (Cost -1)
Taelor (Cost -1)
Bishop (Cost -1)
Desperate Mercenary (Cost -1)
Freikorps Specialist (Cost -1)
Hans (Cost -1)
Johan (Cost +1)
Freikorps Trapper (Cost +1)
Ashes and Dust (Cost +1)
Scramble (Cost -1)
Resurrectionists
Hayreddin (Cost -1)
Shikome (Cost -1)
Student of Steel (Cost -1)
Student of Sinew (Cost -1)
Student of Viscera (Cost -1)
Dead Rider (Cost -2)
Nurse (Cost +1)
Sinister Reputation: Gains a 1" :melee in addition to the :ranged on Live for Pain.
Ten Thunders
Ototo (Cost -1)
Yamaziko (Cost -1)
Fuhatsu (Cost -1)
Dawn Serpent (Cost -1)
Thunder Archer (Cost -1)
Monk of High River (Cost -1)
Terracotta Warriors (Cost +1)
Yasunori (Cost +1)
The Storm changes to: "When damaging an enemy model, this model may place all resulting :blast Markers anywhere in 8" of this model and within Line of Sight. Markers placed in this way do not need to be touching each other."
There's some great stuff in there. Riders are actually worth considering now, Burt, Francois, McTavish, Ashes and Dust and Yasunori totally had it coming. I always felt that Lelu was almost there after his 0ss upgrade, and at 6ss combined with that upgrade I'm curious about giving him another go.
The Storm being able to have damage reduced and range reduced to 8" really needed to be done. Misaki was flying rodent gak crazy good with her new upgrades.
A few, like Johan and the Trapper, seem more about reducing their popularity as mercenaries than in-faction balance.
Some are just baffling - I don't know anyone that thinks Bishop or Taelor needed a points reduction.
However, it's got the same problem that the July errata had on Stuffed Piglets - points changes aren't always the best way to fix a unit. Bunraku are now 1ss more than Wicked Dolls, so even the few people that hired Wicked Dolls before will probably just swap to Bunraku. Wicked Dolls will be relegated to summons only. If they wanted people taking Bunraku, building their trigger into Snatch would have gone a long way.
The Hooded Rider, while I appreciate the reduction and will be buying one now, had the effect of making the Mature Nephilim and most definitely Teddy redundant. Late game he's better than the Mature Nephilim, and he's straight up better than Teddy, who is 1ss more. Both will be relegated even more to niche lists.
This errata will shake up list building thanks to the cost changes, but I think a few would have been better off with some rules alterations.
Playing ressers, I'm pretty confused why the Students saw a point reduction: they always sucked as hires (and still do), but were also solid summons, and now they're cheaper than punks for that? I don't think that was necessary...
OTOH, in the time since I stopped playing lucius, he's been getting better and better. I'm actually looking forward to playing his crew when I get back in.
Is there somewhere to find all of the errata/new point costs in one document? I'm looking to get back into Malifaux and I'm certain the most if not all of my cards must be wrong by this point.
.Mikes. wrote: There's the official Malifaux app. Iirc it has an errata section. However the most recent errata haven't reached it yet.
The most recent errata is on the app. iOS took a few days longer than the Android store, but they're both updated now. However, the iOS app won't prompt for an update. I had to delete the app and redownload it, which wipes your model list and saved crews.
wana10 wrote: Is there somewhere to find all of the errata/new point costs in one document? I'm looking to get back into Malifaux and I'm certain the most if not all of my cards must be wrong by this point.
All errata'd cards can be found on the FAQ and Errata page of their website.
wana10 wrote: Is there somewhere to find all of the errata/new point costs in one document? I'm looking to get back into Malifaux and I'm certain the most if not all of my cards must be wrong by this point.
All errata'd cards can be found on the FAQ and Errata page of their website.
Ok, so just because a card is on wargame vault for individual purpose doesn't mean that it's changed from the original?
wana10 wrote: Is there somewhere to find all of the errata/new point costs in one document? I'm looking to get back into Malifaux and I'm certain the most if not all of my cards must be wrong by this point.
All errata'd cards can be found on the FAQ and Errata page of their website.
Ok, so just because a card is on wargame vault for individual purpose doesn't mean that it's changed from the original?
All M2E cards are on wargamevault for individual purchase. Wargamevault individual cards on demand replaced Arsenal decks. If you go to an errata'd card on wargamesvault, it'll have a comment in the description mentioning what errata it was changed in.
That looks quite nice, more fantasy than I anticipated though.
Given that they want to charge $10 for a single 50mm base, I have zero expectations that the prices attached won't make Forgeworld seem cheap in comparison. $100 per building? They need to take a look at stuff like Tabletop World and check their pricing.
Price will be bloated by interior details that are basically useless from a game perspective, given that Malifaux has relatively poor rules for that sort of thing. I guess if you want to camp out inside dropping scheme markers, but it seems like a negative play experience.
The buildings have interchangeable floors, allowing you to build different looking buildings, all of which will stack on top of each other (well, it's hard to stack on the roof pieces, but you get the idea). The table itself is made up of smaller tiles you can spin and put in different locations. And last but not least, different elements of smaller terrain can fill in the final details.
Going by the ‘table is made of multiple tiles’ comment I’m guessing this is one of 4 tiles.
The buildings have interchangeable floors, allowing you to build different looking buildings, all of which will stack on top of each other (well, it's hard to stack on the roof pieces, but you get the idea). The table itself is made up of smaller tiles you can spin and put in different locations. And last but not least, different elements of smaller terrain can fill in the final details.
Going by the ‘table is made of multiple tiles’ comment I’m guessing this is one of 4 tiles.
It's made of 9. The circular staircase is 2 of the same tile side by side. You can see the lines if you look at the edge. Also worth noting that the single stairs are separate pieces.
.Mikes. wrote: Looks like Sonnia is going to be present in The Other Side. In related news - new Sonnia sculpt?!
I totally missed this. Narratively, that's super interesting considering one of the game's factions is basically powered by her former boss and tenant. She's long been my favorite master, very curious to see how this turns out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Looking over the terrain more, its interesting to pick out the modularity. For example, the two houses on the right have the same top two floors with the far right one having an additional bottom tier and the roofs being swapped. I'd wager that additional bottom tier is also the same as the building in the corner third from the right two based on the crooked little vestibule attached to it.
Interesting stuff; the modularity might really improve the playability of it all.
I'm expecting $400au-$500au, depending on how many buildings it comes with, though that's roughly based on the Secret Weapon hard plastic 4x4 modular boards being $250au.
Anything more and it's unlikely to sell well, which isn't what you want for a hard plastic product since you've invested so much in the molds.
lets all not forget "through the breach" as wyrd's stuff is multi use. someone mentioned the insides being no big deal. maybe not for malifaux proper but for TTB I am definately on this one also thinking it will be good for other side too
This board would be awful for The Other Side. The majority of bases are 80-100mm plug bases, with only a few 40mm and 50mm bases, and a few 120mm bases.
The Other Side is designed around using 40k style 6x4 boards, with a few houses and large rocks and patches of forest but mostly open.
I've always been a bit confused... Can anyone explain why every GW rumor, product, specialty game, etc gets it's own thread, but non GW items are all mashed together into one? Thread traffic volume? Not arguing, just curious! Thanks!
Are these supposed to represent new Malifaux constructions constructed after the breach was re-opened, the ones built in the first doomed expedition 100 years ago, or original buildings that existed pre-breach? While really cool, they don't fit in with what I had envisioned. I don't have any of the new Through the Breach products, so don't know if it jives with the RPG.
Nathan showed some happy snaps of what appear to be the final production sprues of one of the buildings and gave some extra information.
What is it made out of - same stuff our Malifaux miniatures are. HIPS. They will come on a sprue and you bust them out, put together and you're good to go. We've gone out of our way to get rid of fiddly bits and thin parts and everything is pretty beefy and thick. An no, you don't have to put each roof tile on individually.
Tiles are 12"x12" and can be spun about and put together however you want and connected on the bottom so that they don't slide apart, etc.
There is quite a bit that y'all haven't seen, or I should say all of it. Yes we have scatter terrain, barricades, etc. Yes there are more planned beyond this set.
Yes many of the buildings are modular. You can stack multiple levels, etc and then pick and choose between some roof tops as well. It's not all interchangeable (particularly the large building), but we've tried to build in some back and forth customization.
Pricing - haven't gotten that tacked down a 100% yet but we're working on it. We're not after an arm and a leg - maybe a small finger or big toe perhaps. Yes for some it will be a 'luxury' item, but then again, anything beyond the basic necessities is. You'll also be able to pick them up as kits and build upon them as you want, so there is no need to break the bank all at once if you want.
I think these might put an end to Plastcraft's line, which always felt way too expensive for the equivalent printed foamcore (and one sided at that... nothing like having a wall with one side pure white).
-Loki- wrote: The connecting points are probably going to be different but the size matches.
What about the height of Wyrd's tiles compared to Secret Weapon's?
I've only seen what others have seen, but by the preview they look like they're about an inch thick. Secret Weapons are about 1cm? So height will be an issue. Though you could use the height to have the stream sections running through to make a low canal running through a town.
I was wondering about the compatibility with secret weapon tiles myself the Wyrd tiles look thicker alright but that can be worked around or hidden with walls hedges etc. Aren’t both being made by Wargames factory? (Well were in SWM case as they in dispute) If so there’s bound to be some similarities in the design/manufacture although I think the SWM clip system design belongs to them. I’ll be keeping an eye on this new terrain price will be the deciding factor.
Those final giant champions might be the nail in my 2016 
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