I love how Sisters are (supposedly) not part of the “main factions” (anymore?). That means no big update a-la Dark Eldar, if we are to believe this rumor. Only maybe a few tidbits in between releases for those “main factions”.
There's been rumours of plastic sisters since before Jes Goodwin confirmed they had been trying and failing at producing them a few years ago - something to do with their hair?
I hope this happens soon then the SoB fans can quieten down and let the Squat fans have their time in the limelight.
notprop wrote: There's been rumours of plastic sisters since before Jes Goodwin confirmed they had been trying and failing at producing them a few years ago - something to do with their hair?
I hope this happens soon then the SoB fans can quieten down and let the Squat fans have their time in the limelight.
It was the robes that are part of their shoulder pads I belive actully. Since it would mean the diffrent arm poses and ush could be be compatable with each other, and thus end up with modles that look to mono poses for a plastic kit.
So I figure they will eventually go to plastic, or they will get rid of sisters altogether.
I prefer my metal girls actually.
First , they might, conceivably , if not likely, still be around long after I'm dead. Even the best of plastics crumble after awhile.
Second, when people make snide comments about sisters it doesn't even phase me , because I'm not rich, so my army not only cost me a fortune in money, it cost me a fortune in effort , in desire, in something like love, or at least over-the-top lust , and I know that even if they don't . I know that, and they can't take that away from me. And because they represent so much to me, I love them like I would no other army.
I guess this may be tied in with the Codex: Allies that was supposedly announced at the open day. Would feature sisters and squats.
This is second hand information though (somebody I follow on Instagram and a post on facebook from people at the open day) so take with a pinch of salt. But would make sense if they are planning a new codex that we would get plastic sisters and squats.
They could save themselves a lot of trouble and release a single Sisters box that has heavy weapons, special weapons and jump packs/Seraphim weapon options all in one box. One catch-all box that covers every possible type of Sister and they'd never have to think about it again.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They could save themselves a lot of trouble and release a single Sisters box that has heavy weapons, special weapons and jump packs/Seraphim weapon options all in one box.
But making that box would be a lot of trouble. Better spend all the time and effort needed on space marines captains.
houshin wrote: I guess this may be tied in with the Codex: Allies that was supposedly announced at the open day. Would feature sisters and squats.
This is second hand information though (somebody I follow on Instagram and a post on facebook from people at the open day) so take with a pinch of salt. But would make sense if they are planning a new codex that we would get plastic sisters and squats.
I was at the open day yesterday and I think the only way Squats will come back is if they could kill them off again. Jez said he would love to do this
As for Sisters, I think what they were trying to say was....
1.) Unless they are able to set up a proper project with the correct resources, it's something we will not see soon. Jez said that he would only commit to them as an army if he was able to focus upon them in the same way he did with Dark Eldar. He would rather wait to do them right, rather then rush them out.
2.) He did insinuate/hint that with the new release schedule, it would be a possible for Games Workshop to look at releasing some new models for the Sisters with rules to support them. He then said that this would most likely be plastic (which is no surprise since this is the material they are releasing everything in)
Squats? What the blazes is that all about, and also, did nobody bother to cover the 40K open day? Can't find a writeup anywhere, just stuff from beforehand about what FW would be selling there.
Yodhrin wrote: Squats? What the blazes is that all about, and also, did nobody bother to cover the 40K open day? Can't find a writeup anywhere, just stuff from beforehand about what FW would be selling there.
Squats is a running joke where there used to be a army of space dwarfs called squats but they were killed off about 15 years ago by GW. It used to send some of Games Developers into a rage when asked about them, but it has become a bit of a joke now.
He's what I wrote on another forum....
me wrote:So yesterday I went to the 40K Open Day and went to both seminar sessions, and I just thought I would mention a couple of things that came up over the course of the day.
New Stuff Frankly, there was nothing new apart from a few things from Forgeworld. They could only discuss what has been released, which in this case was about Santcus Reach. There wasn't many questions about this in the seminars I was in apart from a discussion about campaigns.
The Release Schedule They spoke a little bit about the Release Schedule and why they have switched to a weekly one, with Phil Kelly saying he was amazed they haven't done it before. This allows them at the studio to bring out more content and pick up different things, rather than concentrating on an army block at a time and trying to shoe horn things into the release.
If you read between the lines, you can see this is one of the reasons why we now have unbound armies in 7th edition as it allows them to work on something which they get an urge to do and then release it, instead of sitting on the idea for a few years. The impression I got from the seminars that a lot of the content was driven by the writers/sculptors now and would be based upon things they wanted to work on.
They briefly touched upon things which might happen. For example, somebody asked about Sisters of Battle and Jez said while he would love to do something for them he wasn't sure it is something that would happen soon as an army, as he would really want to commit to the project like he did with Dark Eldar. He didn't rule out a Dataslate and possibility of a plastic kit but not sure if this is him thinking aloud and is something he wants to do, or if it is something he is working on. A few more things that were mentioned....
Timeline - The usual timeline question was brought up (by GW as a warm up question). Will the timeline move forwards? No as they like the tension that is being built up at the moment. They will however look at past battles and explore those more with new models and formations/lists. The Eye of Terror campaign was mentioned and it was asked why they backtracked the story. The answer was they liked how we are at the cliff edge and not sure what could happen but it looks grim, but they also said they weren't happy with how players could submit fake results.
Primarchs - Somebody asked about the 'missing' Primarchs and Daemon Primarchs and Phil said if you looked at the Chaos background now, it was a possibility of the Daemon Primarchs appearing more due to the path Abbaddon is forging to try and expand the Eye of Terror past Cadia. So there is a chance they might bring out something covering a battle where a Daemon Primarch appears....
Speed Freaks - This was said quite a few times, so I suspect we may see something about them coming out at some point
Eldar Exodites - Another something they would love to do and is a bit closer to being reality due to new release schedule and if one of the sculptors were really interested in it
Missing Models - Somebody asked about missing models such as the special characters from the Nid codex. Jez pointed out that technically they weren't missing but the reason they weren't included was because they didn't want people buying a codex and wanting to use something from it they couldn't buy from the store. However he did say that good ideas weren't thrown away and they do get looked at again. I took this as a hint we may see a model at some point and some rules. Somebody did say what about Farseers on Jetbikes, but they glossed over this which is not surprising considering the Chapterhouse legal battle!
Freedom of 7th Edition There was a discussion about why they went down the route of making 7th edition as open as it it now and it bubbled down to the fact that they wanted to empower you the gamer to have fun. Jes Bickham spoke about his experience at a Throne of Skulls and how he had brought a Imperial Knight army and stomped over everybody and said he was pleased he did well at the event, he didn't really enjoy all of his games due to him just whitewashing his opponents. He then spoke about how when playing a game you are entering a social contract and how it would be a good idea to be considerate for your opponent about what you both want from the game. You want to use a filthy list but your opponent doesn't? Does this mean that you will both get an enjoyable game or maybe you should both think about what you want from the game?
And this is one of the reasons why they went down the freedom route. They want you to be able to create scenes from the books or come up with crazy scenarios, but also play really competitively if you want to. It's all down to you to decide what you want from the game.
Games Day Games Day is a thing of the past now but they are running something called Warhammer Fest! It's basically Games Day but over two days, with Golden Daemon being held on the Sunday. Tickets are £20 each day and it's on 18th/19th October and being held in Coventry.
I can not stress though, they were really cagey about discussing what could be coming out or will be coming out. For example, one of the seminars was called 'Project X' and the reason it was called this was because originally it was going to be called 'Santcus Reach' but they were told off because it named dropped about a upcoming release (they advertised the seminars weeks before). They apologized that the name 'Project X' was a bit misleading but it was so they could discuss the recent release of Santcus Reach and Stormclaw (which nobody really asked about apart from a bit of a discussion about campaigns).
So Project X was just them not wanting to talk about something that, by the time of the event, was already out and everyone already knew about it?
How typical. It's like that Games Day UK from a while ago where the cabinets of upcoming releases found themselves filled with all the new Skaven releases that had come out a week or so earlier.
H.B.M.C. wrote: So Project X was just them not wanting to talk about something that, by the time of the event, was already out and everyone already knew about it?
No. They wanted to talk about it but they couldn't call the seminar 'Sanctus Reach'. The seminars were advertised way before the release and they weren't allowed to call it Sanctus Reach and opted to call it 'Project X'. The problem was that people took this as they were going to discuss things coming out later this year, rather than a discussion about how they developed Sanctus Reach (and they did appologise about this). It was briefly talked about but not many questions came up about it. They did say the reason Space Wolves were chosen for the new boxed set, was because somebody had sculpted a wolf lord model and they all thought it was cool.
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Yodhrin wrote: Wow, that sounds incredibly lame. Thanks for enduring it on our behalf
Too be honest, I did enjoy it as it's nice seeing that the guys who make GW games and models are really enthusiastic about them. I think they would love to discuss things more but are reluctant as people often take somethings as gospel and moan if it doesn't come out. For example, a sculptor is working on some concepts for a new unit for Eldar and brings them along to a show and gets asked about them. This gets all over the internet and becomes "Eldar are out soon" and at the next few shows the sculptor gets moaned at that nothing came out, when all he wanted to do is show off some cool things. Another reason, is that GW are really secretive now due to the rise of competitors (Mantic Games, Privateer Press) and the whole fun and games with Chapterhouse.
houshin wrote: I guess this may be tied in with the Codex: Allies that was supposedly announced at the open day. Would feature sisters and squats.
This is second hand information though (somebody I follow on Instagram and a post on facebook from people at the open day) so take with a pinch of salt. But would make sense if they are planning a new codex that we would get plastic sisters and squats.
I was at the open day yesterday and I think the only way Squats will come back is if they could kill them off again. Jez said he would love to do this
As for Sisters, I think what they were trying to say was....
1.) Unless they are able to set up a proper project with the correct resources, it's something we will not see soon. Jez said that he would only commit to them as an army if he was able to focus upon them in the same way he did with Dark Eldar. He would rather wait to do them right, rather then rush them out.
2.) He did insinuate/hint that with the new release schedule, it would be a possible for Games Workshop to look at releasing some new models for the Sisters with rules to support them. He then said that this would most likely be plastic (which is no surprise since this is the material they are releasing everything in)
Thanks for the clarification. Probably also the reason more of news sites aren't talking about this.
That is the problem with the information that seeps out of these events. It is always some-ones interpretation of what was said and then it was my interpretation of the interpretation.
Gaz Taylor wrote: Another reason, is that GW are really secretive now due to the rise of competitors (Mantic Games, Privateer Press) and the whole fun and games with Chapterhouse.
It is probably more to do with New Line not being impressed that GW released images of the Trolls from LotR prior to the movie coming out... so now they don't tell no one nothing
I was at the seminar and agree it was heavily implied that something Sisters related was in the pipeline.
This conversation was part of the new supplement angle. It lets them release new units without a revisit of the current codex, allowing for a more dynamic and quicker release schedule.
Gaz Taylor wrote: Another reason, is that GW are really secretive now due to the rise of competitors
So, you mean that if they announce they will release, say, Sisters of Battle later in the year, then Privateer Press will be able to… what exactly?
I know that Privateer Press is going to release Dozer and Smigg, a warbeast that is meant to go along with my warlock, and I am thrilled about it. I will buy it straight when it comes out. If I knew about Sisters coming out at the same time, I would maybe start to save money to buy both. As it stands, if both comes out at the same time, I will probably just buy Dozer and Smigg, and then wait until later to buy the Sisters. Because seriously, unlike PP, GW really does not seem to care about us having a good time in general.
Gaz Taylor wrote: For example, a sculptor is working on some concepts for a new unit for Eldar and brings them along to a show and gets asked about them. This gets all over the internet and becomes "Eldar are out soon" and at the next few shows the sculptor gets moaned at that nothing came out, when all he wanted to do is show off some cool things.
A problem of their own creation. If they weren't that secretive then this wouldn't be an issue. If they actively engaged with their customer base rather than running in the opposite direction at every chance they get then this wouldn't occur.
Gaz Taylor wrote: Another reason, is that GW are really secretive now due to the rise of competitors (Mantic Games, Privateer Press) and the whole fun and games with Chapterhouse.
Yeah and if you believe that I've got some plastic Sisters to sell you...
Gaz Taylor wrote: Another reason, is that GW are really secretive now due to the rise of competitors
So, you mean that if they announce they will release, say, Sisters of Battle later in the year, then Privateer Press will be able to… what exactly?
Steal ideas? I'm sure there are other reasons but that's the easiest one my simple brain can manage today
I think what GW don't want is for a competitor to see something they are working on and come out with a very similar model but it's cheaper. Privateer Press is probably a bad example in this case but at time of writing was one of the few miniature companies I could think of
Gaz Taylor wrote: For example, a sculptor is working on some concepts for a new unit for Eldar and brings them along to a show and gets asked about them. This gets all over the internet and becomes "Eldar are out soon" and at the next few shows the sculptor gets moaned at that nothing came out, when all he wanted to do is show off some cool things.
A problem of their own creation. If they weren't that secretive then this wouldn't be an issue. If they actively engaged with their customer base rather than running in the opposite direction at every chance they get then this wouldn't occur.
Maybe, but considering at the start of this thread it was mentioned that Sisters were no longer a main army, you can see why they aren't super interested in doing this. Also when you chat with the guys in the studio, you see they are really enthusiastic about working at GW and they do care about what they produce. If I was in their shoes and saw somebody moaning about some unfinished work I was working on, or getting something I was showing off because I was excited for people to see it, I probably wouldn't be happy either.
Sisters have never been a main army except for the brief period in 1997 when they had their own book, a book that was around for a year before 3rd Ed 40k completely invalidated it. The next time Sisters got a look-in that wasn't a WD article (Chapter Approved 2001) was when they got hijacked by the Ordo Hereticus and stuck in the same book with the Inquisition. You probably know the rest of their history from there.
Gaz - I don't think I've ever heard acknowledgement of a competitor by GW. Think the secrecy thing probably originated with New Line, when those pictures of the Army of the Dead got posted in White Dwarf years ago, and perhaps now to stop 3rd party bits producers get wind of forthcoming releases.
Oh, and the fact that they have disappeared up their own arses in terms of their level of self importance..
It's funny looking at old White Dwarfs though with their sneak peeks and pictures of greens, how much more relaxed things seemed to be back then..
notprop wrote: There's been rumours of plastic sisters since before Jes Goodwin confirmed they had been trying and failing at producing them a few years ago - something to do with their hair?
I hope this happens soon then the SoB fans can quieten down and let the Squat fans have their time in the limelight.
Speaking as someone who held the candle for many, many years, are there any still waiting?
Think all of them are either dead or have collected some of the Mantic Forge Fathers.. !
It originated with the design of the Uruk-Hai in Fellowship(some stores got their black boxes with the rulebooks early--which had photos of the Uruk-Hai in it), was compounded by Two Towers(again: black boxes with rulebooks early which showcased the Elves at Helm's Deep which is a major deviation from the books and was going to be a big surprise), and then the Army of the Dead and the photos of them swarming off the Umbaran Corsair ships finished it off.
It originated with the design of the Uruk-Hai in Fellowship(some stores got their black boxes with the rulebooks early--which had photos of the Uruk-Hai in it), was compounded by Two Towers(again: black boxes with rulebooks early which showcased the Elves at Helm's Deep which is a major deviation from the books and was going to be a big surprise), and then the Army of the Dead and the photos of them swarming off the Umbaran Corsair ships finished it off.
Their secrecy may have started from a reasonable place, but it seems to be a tradition at this point.
And even then, we generaly knew that "someting" was coming. They didn't pretend, for example, that they werne't going to make riders of rohan models.
Squats, I was in the seminar and IT WAS DEFIANTLY A JOKE
However
Plastic Sisters, they said (paraphrasing here, bear in mind I've spent nearly 8 hours driving today and got up at stupid o'clock);
With the old release schedule updating Sisters was too bigger job because they had to make a whole army that worked, however as they have a more free rolling release cycle it allows them the freedom to put out odd bits here and there.
It was heavily implied that this is something that is happening.
They also said as all the main factions have up to date core ranges now that opens the door to smaller, more specialist releases.
Out of all my 40K stuff, I was the saddest when I sold my sisters off. I just didn't have much time to play, and that's a lot of expensive metal to leave just laying around.
Plastic betties will never happen, or at least -- not anytime soon. There are, however, some fantastic new smaller companies popping up -- so I hope someday to recapture some of the glory of the girls, but on a different platform.
Gaz Taylor wrote: Another reason, is that GW are really secretive now due to the rise of competitors
So, you mean that if they announce they will release, say, Sisters of Battle later in the year, then Privateer Press will be able to… what exactly?
Steal ideas? I'm sure there are other reasons but that's the easiest one my simple brain can manage today
I think what GW don't want is for a competitor to see something they are working on and come out with a very similar model but it's cheaper. Privateer Press is probably a bad example in this case but at time of writing was one of the few miniature companies I could think of
Gaz Taylor wrote: For example, a sculptor is working on some concepts for a new unit for Eldar and brings them along to a show and gets asked about them. This gets all over the internet and becomes "Eldar are out soon" and at the next few shows the sculptor gets moaned at that nothing came out, when all he wanted to do is show off some cool things.
A problem of their own creation. If they weren't that secretive then this wouldn't be an issue. If they actively engaged with their customer base rather than running in the opposite direction at every chance they get then this wouldn't occur.
Maybe, but considering at the start of this thread it was mentioned that Sisters were no longer a main army, you can see why they aren't super interested in doing this. Also when you chat with the guys in the studio, you see they are really enthusiastic about working at GW and they do care about what they produce. If I was in their shoes and saw somebody moaning about some unfinished work I was working on, or getting something I was showing off because I was excited for people to see it, I probably wouldn't be happy either.
Steal ideas? What would PP care about if they new GW was releasing plastic SOB? It makes no sense.
I must be atypical and the kind of customer GW dislikes. Unless there is a completely new unit or model involved, *just* plastic Sisters wouldn't compel me to make a purchase for an army I already own. I have an all metal Grey Knights army, and I never purchased any of the plastic boxed sets when the 5th Edition codex dropped.
Apparently, Privateer Press is not afraid that GW will steal their ideas. And really, Sisters are already out, how would mentioning that they are redoing them allow anyone to steal their ideas.
Gaz Taylor wrote: Maybe, but considering at the start of this thread it was mentioned that Sisters were no longer a main army, you can see why they aren't super interested in doing this.
What? You are taking the problem from the wrong end. The fact they have decided to neglect an already existing army that has been present for more than 15 years, and demote it out of the main armies, without any notice, is the problem, not the excuse.
ncshooter426 wrote: Out of all my 40K stuff, I was the saddest when I sold my sisters off. I just didn't have much time to play, and that's a lot of expensive metal to leave just laying around.
Plastic betties will never happen, or at least -- not anytime soon. There are, however, some fantastic new smaller companies popping up -- so I hope someday to recapture some of the glory of the girls, but on a different platform.
Raging Heroes has something like that in the pipeline, and there's been some nice-looking concept art for the "Sisters of Eternal Mercy" floating around. Though given how their recent KS has been doing on delivery, they may actually be beaten to new Sister models by GW!
ncshooter426 wrote: Out of all my 40K stuff, I was the saddest when I sold my sisters off. I just didn't have much time to play, and that's a lot of expensive metal to leave just laying around.
Plastic betties will never happen, or at least -- not anytime soon. There are, however, some fantastic new smaller companies popping up -- so I hope someday to recapture some of the glory of the girls, but on a different platform.
Raging Heroes has something like that in the pipeline, and there's been some nice-looking concept art for the "Sisters of Eternal Mercy" floating around. Though given how their recent KS has been doing on delivery, they may actually be beaten to new Sister models by GW!
Yeah! I got excited when I saw the concept art for SoEM. After how long it has been since their kickstarter was being hyped and when it was finally launched, I think GW would probably have done Sisters and some other army. Oh well, I shouldn't be complaining since I still have a lot to paint.
Hmm. While I'll remain unsure about this for the moment, it seems to tie in with the larger account that was posted on faiet. Specifically, about the Sisters being hinted to get some sort of supplement-type release.
But anyway, as ever, it's nice to hear that GW are thinking about the Sisters.
I have been a Sisters player since the start, back in 2nd edition.
I know I, for one, would be more than happy if GW would just release a multi-part plastic kit that simply mimicked the current poses of the metal Sisters, just in modern-quality detail and for a cheaper "plastics" price. Who cares if they are mono-pose?. You could have "sets" of arms meant to go on upper bodies that are firing from the hip in a couple of slightly different poses, and ones firing one-handed. Then make all the variety of the models in different leg poses- standing, walking, etc- and different heads, both helmed and bare. Make options for Sister Superiors be in extras, like capes under the backpack, and arms holding CC weapons, bolt pistols and plasma pistols.
That would be totally good enough for me, and well within GW's capabilities if they truly cared. Just because the robes would drop the posing possibilities lower than what Space marines have doesn't mean it wouldn't be awesome.
I'm just worried that if they re-do them, they will up the ante on the S&M looks.
Please treat this as a rumour, but I may have some info on this.
My info goes like this. As of next year around July 2015 GW will hand over Sisters of Battle to Forge World and they'll be a full multi part resin kit.
However, this is only for a short as if what I am hearing is true, you see if the info is correct, GW is introducing a new Faction into 40,000 and it will be called "Children of Chaos"
this new "Chaos" faction will be basically Space Beastmen. However bringing in a new faction means the culling of an established faction and according to what I have been told there is no place for plastic SoB.
This ties in well, as Forge World will bring out a rehash GW Codex for SoB but under "Forge World" title, but they can only be fielded as an auxiliary force and not a stand alone army. As I have said this will be a short time and by the 1st Qtr of 2016
Forge World will withdraw SoB from the range, this has been done this way so that GW and Citadel Miniatures can wash their hands of SoB and the squatting of SoB will be Forge Worlds fault.
I hope this is wrong, but I have had it told to me more than once and one of those is a former games developer of GW that shall never be named.
Achaylus72 wrote: Please treat this as a rumour, but I may have some info on this.
My info goes like this. As of next year around July 2015 GW will hand over Sisters of Battle to Forge World and they'll be a full multi part resin kit.
However, this is only for a short as if what I am hearing is true, you see if the info is correct, GW is introducing a new Faction into 40,000 and it will be called "Children of Chaos"
this new "Chaos" faction will be basically Space Beastmen. However bringing in a new faction means the culling of an established faction and according to what I have been told there is no place for plastic SoB.
This ties in well, as Forge World will bring out a rehash GW Codex for SoB but under "Forge World" title, but they can only be fielded as an auxiliary force and not a stand alone army. As I have said this will be a short time and by the 1st Qtr of 2016
Forge World will withdraw SoB from the range, this has been done this way so that GW and Citadel Miniatures can wash their hands of SoB and the squatting of SoB will be Forge Worlds fault.
I hope this is wrong, but I have had it told to me more than once and one of those is a former games developer of GW that shall never be named.
Achaylus72 wrote: Please treat this as a rumour, but I may have some info on this.
My info goes like this. As of next year around July 2015 GW will hand over Sisters of Battle to Forge World and they'll be a full multi part resin kit.
However, this is only for a short as if what I am hearing is true, you see if the info is correct, GW is introducing a new Faction into 40,000 and it will be called "Children of Chaos"
this new "Chaos" faction will be basically Space Beastmen. However bringing in a new faction means the culling of an established faction and according to what I have been told there is no place for plastic SoB.
This ties in well, as Forge World will bring out a rehash GW Codex for SoB but under "Forge World" title, but they can only be fielded as an auxiliary force and not a stand alone army. As I have said this will be a short time and by the 1st Qtr of 2016
Forge World will withdraw SoB from the range, this has been done this way so that GW and Citadel Miniatures can wash their hands of SoB and the squatting of SoB will be Forge Worlds fault.
I hope this is wrong, but I have had it told to me more than once and one of those is a former games developer of GW that shall never be named.
As I said I hope I am wrong in this and GW does eventually brings out a fully supported plastic SoB range, i'd be one to spend money on it, but what I have been told is that as up until now no-one in the Games Development Team has been commissioned to begin working on the SoB range.
Meaning that if correct, once they get the go ahead to begin "Project X" it'll still be at least two years minimum before the new SoB range comes out, so that'll be mid 2016 at the very earliest.
Achaylus72 wrote: Please treat this as a rumour, but I may have some info on this.
My info goes like this. As of next year around July 2015 GW will hand over Sisters of Battle to Forge World and they'll be a full multi part resin kit.
However, this is only for a short as if what I am hearing is true, you see if the info is correct, GW is introducing a new Faction into 40,000 and it will be called "Children of Chaos"
this new "Chaos" faction will be basically Space Beastmen. However bringing in a new faction means the culling of an established faction and according to what I have been told there is no place for plastic SoB.
This ties in well, as Forge World will bring out a rehash GW Codex for SoB but under "Forge World" title, but they can only be fielded as an auxiliary force and not a stand alone army. As I have said this will be a short time and by the 1st Qtr of 2016
Forge World will withdraw SoB from the range, this has been done this way so that GW and Citadel Miniatures can wash their hands of SoB and the squatting of SoB will be Forge Worlds fault.
I hope this is wrong, but I have had it told to me more than once and one of those is a former games developer of GW that shall never be named.
Where can I buy a salt mine ?
It seems you have info of when a fully supported new codex and a multi part plastic kits to build the entire Sisters of Battle range, so please share this news and put us all out of our misery.
I'll...*pretend* to understand GW has limitations with the Sisters of Battle range that has delayed their work. But there is no way in hell I can rationalize them pulling an even *MORE* obscure piece of old 40k (aka the beastmen) and making a whole faction out of them, while a much more fleshed out faction is left out to rot. It just doesn't make any sense.
Besides, commentary from the last GW interview seems to talk about the staff laughing at the idea of Squats (as has been their history). I can't see how 40k beastmen would be any less in the vibe of Rogue Trader, like squats...
Truth be told, I think H.B.M.C nailed it earlier. If they did for the Sisters what they did with the Grey Knights and just produced one all encompassing kit then there's little way they could go wrong.
Snrub wrote: Truth be told, I think H.B.M.C nailed it earlier. If they did for the Sisters what they did with the Grey Knights and just produced one all encompassing kit then there's little way they could go wrong.
As much as I agree with him, this has been suggested since the GK box came out.
Accolade wrote: I'll...*pretend* to understand GW has limitations with the Sisters of Battle range that has delayed their work. But there is no way in hell I can rationalize them pulling an even *MORE* obscure piece of old 40k (aka the beastmen) and making a whole faction out of them, while a much more fleshed out faction is left out to rot. It just doesn't make any sense.
Besides, commentary from the last GW interview seems to talk about the staff laughing at the idea of Squats (as has been their history). I can't see how 40k beastmen would be any less in the vibe of Rogue Trader, like squats...
I have no trouble believing that they could come up with enough model concepts for a Beastman faction, they do, of course, already exist as a stand alone fantasy faction alongside Daemons and WoC.
Fluff takes care of itself, they can just crap out any old gak, cherry picking some of the stuff from old RT/2nd Ed and adding a little bit of new stuff.
My overwhelming "just....no" skepticism aside, the real issue remains what it always is when someone starts a new "what faction would you add?" every other week in 40K Discussions which is that there really isn't a sufficiently different playstyle out there that isn't already taken care of.
Now, in the brave new world of 7th, where force orgs are more fluid, it might be that the traditional codex may become a thing of the past, and they may become a book that contains a selection of related units for you to pick and choose from, but I just don't see a cohesive, playable army at this point.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:The fact they have decided to neglect an already existing army that has been present for more than 15 years, and demote it out of the main armies, without any notice, is the problem, not the excuse.
Without any notice? lol
You didn't even need any Sisters of Battle to play with Codex: Witch Hunters. They were just shoehorned in there so you could use the models if you wanted to. This is a faction that hasn't gotten a new model from GW in over ten years.
Take heart that at the very least they've continued to publish updated rules for them. Squat players didn't even get that much consideration.
pretre wrote:As much as I agree with him, this has been suggested since the GK box came out.
Oh pish posh.
I have come up with a brilliant (and completely original) idea!
They should do an all-in-one Space Marine box!
You'd get 3 marines with all the options for tactical, assault, devestator, command and veterans!
All for the low low price of your kidney. (2 kidneys if you're in Japan and 2 kidneys and your first born if you're in Australia/New Zealand.)(For kidney/first born removal we recommend using your nearest GW approved removal specialist surgeon)
Achaylus72 wrote: Meaning that if correct, once they get the go ahead to begin "Project X" it'll still be at least two years minimum before the new SoB range comes out, so that'll be mid 2016 at the very earliest.
Achaylus72 wrote: Meaning that if correct, once they get the go ahead to begin "Project X" it'll still be at least two years minimum before the new SoB range comes out, so that'll be mid 2016 at the very earliest.
Project X is just Sanctus Reach.
Ok so Project "XYZ", it doesn't change the fact if Project XYZ got the nod today Sisters wont be released until August 2016 at the earliest, meaning it still two years away.
As I have said anyone here that has absolute ironclad proof to the diff, put it up and back that up with a release date.
Gaz Taylor wrote: Another reason, is that GW are really secretive now due to the rise of competitors
So, you mean that if they announce they will release, say, Sisters of Battle later in the year, then Privateer Press will be able to… what exactly?
Steal ideas? I'm sure there are other reasons but that's the easiest one my simple brain can manage today
I think what GW don't want is for a competitor to see something they are working on and come out with a very similar model but it's cheaper. Privateer Press is probably a bad example in this case but at time of writing was one of the few miniature companies I could think of
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...
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If Privateer Press or Mantic wanted to make a set of plastic Not Sisters they could do it right now. They don't have to wait for Games Workshop to release them. The only thing to stop them is if they think GW would sue them for making something that looks like a GW product. In that respect, Sisters are one of the more distinctive armies.
Hey all, plastic sisters would sound like an idea, but from the link in the OP it seems like something else.
I personally had a word when last at a FW sales day in London. I play Sisters of Battle and told the guy "if only you had more than just that repressor" kind of comment.
He then replied i should stick on my toes because they may have something coming. Between that and these few rumors flying around, i am quite sure FW is up to something (and hence people thinking "GW products" - cause FW is still "GW").
Either Plastic sisters (Resin sisters?) or more probably "Sisters of Silence" for their current Horus Heresy focus.
Achaylus72 wrote: Meaning that if correct, once they get the go ahead to begin "Project X" it'll still be at least two years minimum before the new SoB range comes out, so that'll be mid 2016 at the very earliest.
Project X is just Sanctus Reach.
Ok so Project "XYZ", it doesn't change the fact if Project XYZ got the nod today Sisters wont be released until August 2016 at the earliest, meaning it still two years away.
As I have said anyone here that has absolute ironclad proof to the diff, put it up and back that up with a release date.
That's not how it works. YOU prove they ARE coming out. I can just as easily say that the 8th starter will contain Hrudd and Squats, and you just prove it doesn't! I think we know the outcome of this one.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: You didn't even need any Sisters of Battle to play with Codex: Witch Hunters.
Do you mean, like Grey Knight in that Demon Hunter codex?
Pretty sure he did. I had a Witch Hunter and a Daemon Hunter army. To this day I don't own a single Sister model other than the Hospitaller that came with the Inquisitor box.
i feel pretty bad for this thread and very bad for my dear Sisters of Battle. 80% chance they get killed off in some god awful fashion like getting eaten by Khorne or some such nonsense
There's always been a Damocleasian sword hanging above the Sisters as a viable separate force in 40K. This latest news shouldn't be depressing. Hell it shouldn't even be surprising.
H.B.M.C. wrote: There's always been a Damocleasian sword hanging above the Sisters as a viable separate force in 40K. This latest news shouldn't be depressing. Hell it shouldn't even be surprising.
to you it may not be, my friend, but to me it is quite depressing. i love my gun toting girls, guess back to converting sisters of silence then
Achaylus72 wrote: Please treat this as a rumour, but I may have some info on this.
My info goes like this. As of next year around July 2015 GW will hand over Sisters of Battle to Forge World and they'll be a full multi part resin kit.
However, this is only for a short as if what I am hearing is true, you see if the info is correct, GW is introducing a new Faction into 40,000 and it will be called "Children of Chaos"
this new "Chaos" faction will be basically Space Beastmen. However bringing in a new faction means the culling of an established faction and according to what I have been told there is no place for plastic SoB.
This ties in well, as Forge World will bring out a rehash GW Codex for SoB but under "Forge World" title, but they can only be fielded as an auxiliary force and not a stand alone army. As I have said this will be a short time and by the 1st Qtr of 2016
Forge World will withdraw SoB from the range, this has been done this way so that GW and Citadel Miniatures can wash their hands of SoB and the squatting of SoB will be Forge Worlds fault.
I hope this is wrong, but I have had it told to me more than once and one of those is a former games developer of GW that shall never be named.
So... GW is going to make FW spend time and resources making resin SoBs and rules to go with them, only to quickly drop them? And why is Phil Kelly going around saying that he wants to work on the SoB in the future, or GWdevs dropping hints about SoB releases?
Anyone else remember those design sketches with the veils and stuff?
I remember rumors of veils and the like, but that was via Stickmonkey or some other notoriously unreliable rumormonger if I recall correctly.
Yes, pretty sure that was Stickmonkey.
H.B.M.C. wrote: This latest news shouldn't be depressing. Hell it shouldn't even be surprising.
What news? The GW people mentioning them at the seminar, or the random and very questionable claim that they will go through some convoluted FW drop? Because one is good news, and one isn't all that believable.
TyraelVladinhurst wrote: i feel pretty bad for this thread and very bad for my dear Sisters of Battle. 80% chance they get killed off in some god awful fashion like getting eaten by Khorne or some such nonsense
You can't really just "kill off" all of the SoB like that. They're based on Terra and the Imperium's second holiest world. And have smaller groups spread across the Imperium. A "squatting" of the SoB would probably be more just demoting them to a background force, like the PDF or the Arbites.
Sisters of battle are not being squatted, and they are also not being given over to FW.
FW will be doing some Sisters of Silence at some point, most likely when they do Prospero - so alongside Heresy Wolves and Thousand Sons.
However I spoke to Jes Goodwin at length a while ago and the plastics are presenting some technical difficulties.
However the new release schedule means that things can be released without a full Codex.
So the impression I got is that at some point when they are ready they could drop some Sisters models with rules or a data slate in WD without having to commit to a full Codex.
Essentially they want to re-release Sisters, more than likely in plastic, but much like the Dark Eldar they want to do them properly and feel they are worth the wait. The new release schedule allows them to drip feed them back in, but I don't think they'll be any time soon as other projects seem to be taking priority.
+ Supplements will become more popular and replace the typical ‘new codex & new units’ cycle (though this will still happen when the time’s right). The supplements enable GW to add brand new units at a faster pace to armies without complete Codex rewrites or waiting for the conveyor belt to come round. There was a strong hint at something Sisters related in the future in this regards.
The guy in the OP of this thread seems to be saying the same thing, too.
Anyone else remember those design sketches with the veils and stuff?
I remember rumors of veils and the like, but that was via Stickmonkey or some other notoriously unreliable rumormonger if I recall correctly.
Yes, pretty sure that was Stickmonkey.
It was actually before Stickmonkey but he latched onto it. I can't remember who exactly it was but I distinctly remember Stickmonkey latching on to the whole "veils" rumor and talking about how it was represented in the new rules for Sisters and units with the veils had a 2+ or some such nonsense.
H.B.M.C. wrote: There's always been a Damocleasian sword hanging above the Sisters as a viable separate force in 40K. This latest news shouldn't be depressing. Hell it shouldn't even be surprising.
If the Sisters of Battle unexpectedly become the sole operators of an army of giant lady robot type war machines, perhaps with two variants -- a gun and a giant chainsaw -- they could become a viable army with its own codex.
There is a precedent and there are some example artwork from amazingly enough, Japan.
Giant Girl Bot attacks Tokyo.
Attack Dance Bots with Sisters crews dressed in armour.
So, in almost a decade (since the supposed rumors) GW still can't figure out how to sculpt sleeves? I know the SOBs are religious but still clinging to that rumor is pure, unfounded faith.
Actually, the initial plastic Sisters rumor might be near a decade old...but the "issue with flowing sleeves/cloth" part comes from when Dark Eldar were released.
Even if you were to believe in the sleeve issues, In 10 years there has been enough time to go back to the drawing board and redesign them from the ground up in a whole new aesthetics like 2ed orks to 3rd orks.
By changing the look of the Sobs completely also has the advantage to get the few sister players to buy a whole new army so it matches. If plastic sisters were ever to be released in the same style as the current metals there is no way I am wasting money to re-buy my bolter, special/heavy weapons etc. Why waste money? I would just buy the brand new units and save a ton of cash. Now there is a financial advantage for GW to change the look. Nets them a few more sales from existing players and gets around the so called robe issues.
It hasn't been ten years at all in regards to the sleeve issue.
The earliest confirmed statement we have of Jes Goodwin actively working on Sisters of Battle is 2008-2009, the same timeframe as Dark Eldar being tooled up. The Dark Eldar stuff saw a final release in 2010.
It really isn't BS, trust me, to get the type of minis Jes wants in plastic just wasn't possible then, but with the lessons learned with Dark Eldar he thought they could go back and revisit Sisters.
It isn't just the sleeves on the arms, it's also the hair funnily enough.
The point is Jes is very proud of the original SoB models and wants the refresh them in the same way they did with Dark Eldar. In other words a complete overhaul, and they won't be released until he is happy with them, or at least that's the impression I get.
No worries, it was actually really weird reading back through that thread today as there are lots of Easter eggs in that I hadn't spotted before, but with the beauty of hind sight are fairly obvious.
Jes was obvioulsy teasing me about the Eldar Wraith Knight, and the FW Heresy Ad Mech stuff, which was 4 years ago....
Well it would be a nice link back to Sisters of Silence as they had chain-veils and helmets with port-cullis grilles, but if I'm honest I'm not sure how reliable those rumours were.
I can understand it's frustrating to have to wait a long time, but obviously they haven't really been neglected as such.
Sisters have had models available up until a few months ago, and did get a Codex update.
It's just that compared to other lines in the 40K range they weren't a priority.
I know that sucks, but Marines account for the majority of 40K sales, which is why they get so much attention.
But let's not forget GW produces 3 seperate game systems and each system has multiple playable armies.
And if you consider that Dark Eldar didn't get new models for 12 years but they were worked on for 5 years you realise these things do take time.
I have seen design sketches of models that took 4-5 years to be released (Tyranid Harpy) and others that have still not been released.
GW are a big company but work at their own pace. They have realised they need to speed up, hence the new release philosophy, but I don't think people realise just how much work goes into creating their products.
I don't entirely disagree that sometimes we have to wait too long but I'd rather wait for quality than the product be rushed.
And if you read the link I put up it isn't as simple as just plastic sleeves, although that is one aspect.
It's small things such as scroll work on shoulder pads, flowing robes and dynamic hair.
In other threads I see people talk about that company in china overbooking their plastic machines. How difficult would it be for gw to rearrange their schedule to get sisters released? Would it be hard with all the single characters they are trying to push out?
This thread reminds me of my frustration and actually pushes me more to sell my last 40k army, SOB. If GW doesn't care about them, why should I?
I can get a lot of stuff for other games if I sell them.
I'm debating if I should sell or hold out in hopes that GW turns around.
Kilkrazy wrote: If the Sisters of Battle unexpectedly become the sole operators of an army of giant lady robot type war machines, perhaps with two variants -- a gun and a giant chainsaw -- they could become a viable army with its own codex.
There is a precedent and there are some example artwork from amazingly enough, Japan.
Giant Girl Bot attacks Tokyo.
Attack Dance Bots with Sisters crews dressed in armour.
NO.
StraightSilver wrote: I can understand it's frustrating to have to wait a long time, but obviously they haven't really been neglected as such.
Well, they have no physical codex. They have no translated rules. They had no new models for more than 10 years. They will be in a few weeks the only army without any access to neither flyers nor anti-air weapons.
MWHistorian wrote:I'm debating if I should sell or hold out in hopes that GW turns around.
Just box them up. They are awesome minis.
Add to it that the market does not really seem to be that great for metal Sisters, it's best to just box them up and wait until whenever the plastics come out to sell.
MWHistorian wrote:I'm debating if I should sell or hold out in hopes that GW turns around.
Just box them up. They are awesome minis.
Add to it that the market does not really seem to be that great for metal Sisters, it's best to just box them up and wait until whenever the plastics come out to sell.
Yeah, there's a glut right now. They're selling for about 50-55% retail if bare right now.
MWHistorian wrote:I'm debating if I should sell or hold out in hopes that GW turns around.
Just box them up. They are awesome minis.
Add to it that the market does not really seem to be that great for metal Sisters, it's best to just box them up and wait until whenever the plastics come out to sell.
Yeah, there's a glut right now. They're selling for about 50-55% retail if bare right now.
Although, they may crash if plastics come out.
Yeah but then you can start putting that "OOP" tag on!
MWHistorian wrote:I'm debating if I should sell or hold out in hopes that GW turns around.
Just box them up. They are awesome minis.
Add to it that the market does not really seem to be that great for metal Sisters, it's best to just box them up and wait until whenever the plastics come out to sell.
Yeah, there's a glut right now. They're selling for about 50-55% retail if bare right now.
Although, they may crash if plastics come out.
Yeah but then you can start putting that "OOP" tag on!
People do that anyway on things that are clearly still available - apparently based on the assumption that ebay buyers are dumb and don't check these things.
notprop wrote: There's been rumours of plastic sisters since before Jes Goodwin confirmed they had been trying and failing at producing them a few years ago - something to do with their hair?
I hope this happens soon then the SoB fans can quieten down and let the Squat fans have their time in the limelight.
Yeah- GW's plastic isn't good with hair.
That's why space marine baldness is so common (and why the scouts have no texture on theirs).
They could do bald sisters. Or sisters with textureless hair. Or do Malifaux style many piece kits.
Or do what they do with other factions and let the texture disappear along the mold lines
MWHistorian wrote:I'm debating if I should sell or hold out in hopes that GW turns around.
Just box them up. They are awesome minis.
Add to it that the market does not really seem to be that great for metal Sisters, it's best to just box them up and wait until whenever the plastics come out to sell.
Yeah, there's a glut right now. They're selling for about 50-55% retail if bare right now.
Although, they may crash if plastics come out.
WoW lucky in the US then...
UK Ebay and trade sites they go for pretty much full Price !
MrFlutterPie wrote: The whole "plastic sleeve problems" is BS. [...] The simple fact is GW doesn't want to.
I don't think that it is. I don't see why Jes and developers would lie about that.
However, I think that it is alongside other issues that have delayed an SoB re-work. Namely (as interviews have suggested) that Jes wants to really commit to them and do them "just right", but just hasn't gotten around to them. They may also have been passed up in favour of just doing easier updates,
But anyway, I think it's incorrect to say that GW outright doesn't want to do them. Jes and a number of game designers have expressed interest in them, and the Bretonians, who were in something of a similar state with their outdated models, are heavily rumoured to be recieving an update soon. I'm not seeing any hints that GW actually doesn't want to do an SoB update, more that they just havent gotten around to commiting to one quite yet.
odinsgrandson wrote: They could do bald sisters. Or sisters with textureless hair. Or do Malifaux style many piece kits.
Unacceptable. The bob cut is a fundamental part of the SoB look and is, in fact, the true source of their power.
I have some sympathy for GW - currently, SoB aren't much more than female marines with a different armour style and a few unique rules (as all the loyalist chapters have):
- if _female_ marines are the issue, it would be much less work for GW to simply produce a sprue of female marine torsos and legs compatible with other marine bits, announce some fluff retcon waffle re certain chapters (especially SoB) taking female recruits, then let modellers go for it. But then GW would have no real incentive to keep special SoB rules (any more than e.g. Iron Warrior chaos marines still get any unique rules), so no chance of a new codex, at most they might get a special character or dataslate/supplement.
- if the _unique armour_ is the issue, yes GW doesn't want to put heaps of effort into ultra-specialised kits - they'd probably be incompatible with any other power armour bits. Can't really believe that robes and hair are the issue though - neither are particularly rare in GW plastic.
- the other possibility is to completely reinvent the whole SoB concept, as was done with Dark Eldar. Huge amounts of work, so only likely if GW are keen to start a new 'faction' and would prefer to avoid the even bigger task of inventing a brand new race. But if so, is a 'marine variant' really going to be their choice? Doesn't seem much more likely than Squats returning.
IMHO the most likely solution is for GW to hand SoB over to FW, who can then put out a beautiful new range of new resin models and rules. Compared to some of the incredibly obscure stuff FW already puts out, SoB would sell pretty well. I'd think.
possible alternate context --- No need really to hit the gas where sisters are concerned anyway , nor sense in squatting them. They are a unique niche market , really the only game in town in their niche, so the folks who want that are gonna buy that even if they have to pay more for it, regardless of whether it has AA , or is a tournament winner or not , appeals to the majority or not.
Yeah, I'm sure there are other girl armies in fantasy wargaming . Let me guess ; 1 - super models in bikinis . 2 - might as well be guys they are so masculine . 3 - overtones of bestiality and / or other really perverse stuff 4 - fantasy that is so fantastic it is generic / the lore is soo unrealistic that you might as well go ahead and make up your own lore entire , with no limits.
Granted, I haven't been researching fantasy gaming ten years, only two years , but so far Sisters of Battle are the ONLY example I've run across that represents a halfway average, halfway normal, halfway wholesome, halfway clean-cut girl next door ,
( The average , normal , girl next door is a religious nut ? Umm , I guess you spend all your time in guy-places then. Pick any church, Catholic, Methodist, Missionary Baptist, Mormon , whatever , or synagogue , or Mosque for that matter, and walk in. two out of three , or four out of five, of the people within will be female. " Religion is a chauvinist plot " is the self-serving myth of Hugh Hefner and Gloria Steinem types . but that's sorta another topic ---except it isn't if it goes towards explaining why Sisters are STILL being sold after TEN YEARS of little attention . )
with a halfway realistic lore behind it.
I could go on , but suffice to say , like I said in the beginning, I suspect it's a near-monopolized niche, so it sells steadily and reliably and it's fans aren't going anywhere , love or no love. Indeed, it could be that if you tinker with what isn't broken you lose that niche and that reliable sale. Like I suggested, Super models in bikinis, body builder girls, girls with tentacles , and space elves / fairies are already being done by everyone else. Real life good girl with gun ? Nobody.
Clang wrote: I have some sympathy for GW - currently, SoB aren't much more than female marines with a different armour style and a few unique rules (as all the loyalist chapters have):
They are not marine. Not only fluffwise. S3, T3 is a big deal. They share a few wargear with marine, but that is all.
Clang wrote: But then GW would have no real incentive to keep special SoB rules (any more than e.g. Iron Warrior chaos marines still get any unique rules)
Except that they are much more different from, say, vanilla marines than Dark Angels, or Blood Angels, or Space Wolves, or even Grey Knights.
I was worried they were going to be killed of for 7th but was pleasantly surprised when they still had a reasonable presence in the new edition and are even one of the featured armies being painted up by one of the staffers in White Dwarf at the moment......
Crevab wrote: If the claim of "hair is hard" wasn't bunk before, it's definitely been solved by now
Ditto for sleeves.
Normally I'd be more sceptical about these rumours, given that Iuntil recently GW seemed determined to bury this army. I thought the "Codex" they brought was a sop. "There, you can play them with th current rules, now leave us alone!"
However, the current release schedule leaves me feeling a little more optimistic. There'll surely come a point when they run out of updates for the other armies, at which point they'll presumably have time to dedicate to a proper SoB re-launch. How long will that take? No idea, but can at last see it happening in this edition.
MrFlutterPie wrote: The whole "plastic sleeve problems" is BS. [...] The simple fact is GW doesn't want to.
I don't think that it is. I don't see why Jes and developers would lie about that.
However, I think that it is alongside other issues that have delayed an SoB re-work. Namely (as interviews have suggested) that Jes wants to really commit to them and do them "just right", but just hasn't gotten around to them. They may also have been passed up in favour of just doing easier updates,
But anyway, I think it's incorrect to say that GW outright doesn't want to do them. Jes and a number of game designers have expressed interest in them, and the Bretonians, who were in something of a similar state with their outdated models, are heavily rumoured to be recieving an update soon. I'm not seeing any hints that GW actually doesn't want to do an SoB update, more that they just havent gotten around to commiting to one quite yet.
Or they don't see it as having a strong immediate return on the investment. It seems like they're looking at this year as a sort of damage control, and trying to get the low hanging fruit. If every new codex is the same investment of time/energy/money for them, then it makes sense to go after things that they know will sell rather well (ie- more Space Marine codexes) rather than the forces that are played by a relative few hardcore fans.
They'll probably update them when GW finances are looking a bit more stable (and not right after they've decided to do an unscheduled update to 7th edition).
GW is a profit driven corporation- and a lot of their decisions are going to be based on that. Statements like "We can't do them right now because we don't have time to do them right" is a good spin on "We need to put out other books that sell better right now, then we'll start looking at less financially promising projects like Sisters."
For this reason, I'm not holding my breath about having a new Kroot army list (as cool as Kroot were, the latest force list for them is 3rd ed).
odinsgrandson wrote: They could do bald sisters. Or sisters with textureless hair. Or do Malifaux style many piece kits.
Unacceptable. The bob cut is a fundamental part of the SoB look and is, in fact, the true source of their power.
Very old Sisters of Battle artwork shows them bald (and I'll admit, there never was much sisters artwork back then). Their look was re-imagined towards the end of trhe 2nd edition when they actually got their own codex (before that, they sat alongside other "Imperial Agents" in an allies only list).
odinsgrandson wrote: They could do bald sisters. Or sisters with textureless hair. Or do Malifaux style many piece kits.
Unacceptable. The bob cut is a fundamental part of the SoB look and is, in fact, the true source of their power.
Very old Sisters of Battle artwork shows them bald (and I'll admit, there never was much sisters artwork back then). Their look was re-imagined towards the end of trhe 2nd edition when they actually got their own codex (before that, they sat alongside other "Imperial Agents" in an allies only list).
Crevab wrote: If the claim of "hair is hard" wasn't bunk before, it's definitely been solved by now
The problems of GW's plastic make hair a fundamental problem has not been solved. The innovations in the field of PVC could help them, but I don't think GW is going to go to PVC anytime soon (and each plastic has it's own problems at the end of the day).
GW uses polystyrene- which is a very hard plastic that is cast in a metal mold. The problem is that neither the mold nor the plastic can bend when you take it out of the mold.
That means that the mold lines need to have zero texture to them (or you won't be able to remove the minis from the mold). This shows up a lot on GW's minis that are cast in the fewest possible pieces (take a good look at the mold lines on the 3rd ed Space Hulk set- the details absolutely disappear along the mold lines).
With metal or resin miniatures, a little texture is not a problem, because the molds are rubber. With softer plastics, the same is true (Privateer Press' Warpwolf comes in relatively few pieces and has no loss of hair texture along the mold lines, and the same is true of Reaper's bones line).
The primary way that GW has gotten around this problem for years has been to re-design the minis and their style to minimize the loss of detail. Marine armor and posing is designed to have smooth edges around every mold line (and we do still see a little loss of detail in some of the knee pads). When the line was mostly metal, Space Marines didn't use to be bald. Older space marine scout models had texture to their hair (something that they got rid of when they went to plastic and sold it as a style choice). Also, often what determines if a piece is separate is where the mold lines end up sitting.
Wyrd has similar problems with their plastic (they're using ABT, but it's similar to Polystyrene in this case). Their work around has been to make the minis in even more pieces- they have an absolutely crazy number of parts to some of their characters. That can work pretty well, but it is clear that Wyrd isn't going after novices in the miniatures market.
If you want to apply that to the sisters of battle, you can redesign their hair so that it pyramids out towards the mold lines (this is done with top knots all the time. I suspect that's what they've been trying to do and failing at.
Other options, you could lose the texture on their hair around the mold lines (and end up with uneven texture). You could give them Scout Hair with no texture at all and try to sell it as a stylistic choice. Or you could use Wyrd's style and make their head s into three separate pieces and have the players go through a little more work to get them together.
Personally, I like that last option- mostly because I'd put together a lot of Wyrd's minis. They're a little trickier to assemble, but they come out looking great.
I think that sisters sell poorly is because GW doesn't support the army. It's circular logic. A Direct order army of only metal models with a small digital codex that hasn't received a model update in 11 years isn't going to sell well.
The best case study I can think of is DE. They sold poorly. GW stopped supporting them. They sold even more poorly. GW relaunches the line and gives it proper support and now DE actually sells and is stocked in GW stores with a real codex.
I wonder how well sisters would sell if they were a full sized army with plastic kits sold in store with a proper hardback codex.
Crevab wrote: If the claim of "hair is hard" wasn't bunk before, it's definitely been solved by now
The problems of GW's plastic make hair a fundamental problem that won't be solved over time, no matter the innovations that come.
GW uses polystyrene- which is a very hard plastic that is cast in a metal mold. The problem is that neither the mold nor the plastic can bend when you take it out of the mold.
That means that the mold lines need to have zero texture to them (or you won't be able to remove the minis from the mold). This shows up a lot on GW's minis that are cast in the fewest possible pieces (take a good look at the mold lines on the 3rd ed Space Hulk set- the details absolutely disappear along the mold lines).
With metal or resin miniatures, a little texture is not a problem, because the molds are rubber. With softer plastics, the same is true (Privateer Press' Warpwolf comes in relatively few pieces and has no loss of hair texture along the mold lines, and the same is true of Reaper's bones line).
The primary way that GW has gotten around this problem for years has been to re-design the minis and their style to minimize the loss of detail. Marine armor and posing is designed to have smooth edges around every mold line (and we do still see a little loss of detail in some of the knee pads). When the line was mostly metal, Space Marines didn't use to be bald so often. Older space marine scout models had texture to their hair (something that they got rid of when they went to plastic and sold it as a style choice). Also, often what determines if a piece is separate is where the mold lines end up sitting.
Wyrd has similar problems with their plastic (they're using ABT, but it's similar to Polystyrene in this case). Their work around has been to make the minis in even more pieces- they have an absolutely crazy number of parts to some of their characters. That can work pretty well, but it is clear that Wyrd isn't going after novices in the miniatures market.
If you want to apply that to the sisters of battle, you can redesign their hair so that it pyramids out towards the mold lines (this is done with top knots all the time. I suspect that's what they've been trying to do and failing at.
Other options, you could lose the texture on their hair around the mold lines (and end up with uneven texture). You could give them Scout Hair with no texture at all and try to sell it as a stylistic choice. Or you could use Wyrd's style and make their head s into three separate pieces and have the players go through a little more work to get them together.
Personally, I like that last option- mostly because I'd put together a lot of Wyrd's minis. They're a little trickier to assemble, but they come out looking great.
Thanks for explanation, that does at least make the delay reasons plausible.
@ Odinsgranson: That is exactly the point I think Jes was getting at and if you look at the new dark Elf models GW produced they seem to be going in the direction you suggest. The head are in two pieces which allows them more dynamism in the hair.
It's also the cloth aspect of their attire. Guard and Marines don't have large sleeves which the metal Sisters do. This also is an issue with poseability. Not really a problem for bolters and other two handed weapons as the arms don't need to be too dynamic but for close combat or single handed weapons it does limit the amount of poses you can achieve.
Personally I think a redisign with different sleeves would work, but I guess with all the existing artwork they want to keep them as consistent as possible.
@MrFlutterpie: You're absolutely right, Dark Eldar is a perfect example. However that almost didn't happen at all, it was only because Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin hounded the higher ups until they gave in that it did as GW saw it as too much of a gamble.
The beauty of facations and data slates though is they could do one box of SoBs with a data slate that can fit into the Imperial faction and see if it sells, unlike the Dark Eldar where they did a whole army and codex.
odinsgrandson wrote: Or they don't see it as having a strong immediate return on the investment. It seems like they're looking at this year as a sort of damage control, and trying to get the low hanging fruit.
I dunno... Bretonians are heavily rumoured to be getting a model update soon, and they're arguably an even riskier prosepct than the SoB, being that they're a similarly undersupported faction but in a less popular game. Also, the SoB digital codex did apparently sell pretty well, so I don't know that they're an entirely risky prospect.
odinsgrandson wrote: If you want to apply that to the sisters of battle, you can redesign their hair so that it pyramids out towards the mold lines (this is done with top knots all the time. I suspect that's what they've been trying to do and failing at.
Other options, you could lose the texture on their hair around the mold lines (and end up with uneven texture). You could give them Scout Hair with no texture at all and try to sell it as a stylistic choice. Or you could use Wyrd's style and make their head s into three separate pieces and have the players go through a little more work to get them together.
Personally, I like that last option- mostly because I'd put together a lot of Wyrd's minis. They're a little trickier to assemble, but they come out looking great.
Have none of you bought the Exorcist / Immolator kit?
That is a head with hair right there... Plastic and mold lines all on it. If it means they have to equip them all with hairbands / microphones, i don't see any issue =P
Have none of you bought the Exorcist / Immolator kit?
That is a head with hair right there... Plastic and mold lines all on it. If it means they have to equip them all with hairbands / microphones, i don't see any issue =P
Or they could just do the hair and the head/face as separate pieces, like they did with the Witch Elves, or on the new Commissar's massive hat.
Lets be honest here, there are any number of solutions to the "problems" with plastic Sisters; multiple parts, slide-core tooling, even an update of their look to minimise or remove the sleeves. If GW haven't found a solution it's because they've not tried very hard or they're not interested in investing the necessary capital, which is fine, they're a business that operates in a certain way and if they want to ignore the plain facts in front of their faces evidenced by the Dark Eldar revamp, that's their choice, but they should have the stones to just say so rather than bull ing us about "technical issues".
Have none of you bought the Exorcist / Immolator kit?
That is a head with hair right there... Plastic and mold lines all on it. If it means they have to equip them all with hairbands / microphones, i don't see any issue =P
Its not really an argument, it was part of the stated reason by Jes Goodwin. I'm not sure there is any reason for the lead designer to lie about such things.
The example you give is of a fairly static vehicle commander.
A squad kit would have a number of dynamic poses, some poses presumably favouring the left of the body others to the right. A dynamic pose will need a heads whose hair will also denote that movement or it will look off. Balancing the need for dynamism with the need to have multipose options would seem like a tall order without including dozens of different heads. Certainly there seems to be a technical challenge to overcome.
Gaz Taylor wrote:Too be honest, I did enjoy it as it's nice seeing that the guys who make GW games and models are really enthusiastic about them.
I found this video online of Jervis being enthusiastic.
Elemental wrote:Raging Heroes has something like that in the pipeline, and there's been some nice-looking concept art for the "Sisters of Eternal Mercy" floating around.
Oh grief. Then expect battle nuns decked out like Oxayotl's sig.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:He was just joking: the most powerful Sister ever has no bob cutwhatsoever.
Elemental wrote:Raging Heroes has something like that in the pipeline, and there's been some nice-looking concept art for the "Sisters of Eternal Mercy" floating around.
Oh grief. Then expect battle nuns decked out like Oxayotl's sig.
Did you mean my avatar? It is an official artwork from Games Workshop!
SilverMK2 wrote: Given a lot of the new kits, I don't know that I want to see plastic sisters
Preach it brother. You just know they would be awful. Covered in rubbish and looking like a Christmas tree. The whole space nun / female priest is brilliant but nuns and priest should shun ornamentation in their garb but you just know GW couldn't resist covering them in crap.
Yodhrin wrote: Lets be honest here, there are any number of solutions to the "problems" with plastic Sisters; multiple parts, slide-core tooling, even an update of their look to minimise or remove the sleeves. If GW haven't found a solution it's because they've not tried very hard or they're not interested in investing the necessary capita
The impression I get is that Jes Goodwin is just very insistent on doing it in what he feels is "the right way", and the technical issues are or were a barrier to that. Maybe he could have found a way around that sooner, but this just seems to be how he's approaching it.
Knockagh wrote: but nuns and priest should shun ornamentation
Here's for robed up, plain, mean looking ladies!
What? The SoB are all about having flashy ornamentation. Their whole aesthetic is about reflecting their over-the-top nature. The point of it is that it shows off their extreme loyalty to the church, and is to a lesser extent the Ecclesiarchy flaunting its wealth/power through its soldiers. In any case, they're not really meant to be plain.
Brother SRM wrote: That head was also part of a kit that was released over a decade ago. The things GW can do with plastic now compared to then are practically magic.
Yes indeed!
And GW's moulding technology is a good 10 to 15 years behind the current level of mass market Gundam models for pre-teen Japanese boys.
Here is what I know of the tragic tale of Sisters of Battle and in all of it's gory detail.
August 2010 Citadel Miniatures sculptors got the go ahead to produce an all new Sisters of Battle army to be brought out in three ways for selected units 1, Metal kits, 2 Metal/Plastic kits, and 3 Multi Plastic kits.
Also Games Workshop games developers were produce the new Codex: Sister of Battle.
Then in early 2011 the decision to drop metal meant that the new Sisters range would drop metal and introduce Citadel Finecast as per unit make-up, so no real change.
After some time, Sisters got a release date August 2012, this however meant that Sisters would be the last soft cover codex released prior to the release of Dark Vengeance and the following Hard Cover Codexes.
A decision was made to hold back the Sisters Codex to early 2013 and bring it out as a hard cover codex, the release was to follow as such for 40,000. Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels, Eldar and then Sisters, thus Sisters would be released in the 2nd Qtr of 2013.
However something was not right, and from early 2012 GW conducted surveys unbeknownst the public, it looked at the forums, and off the cuff questions at venues as to what percentage of those would collect Sisters and change to fielding Sisters armies.
The result was not as shocking to GW and it was running consistently at above 80% of those who would dump their current armies to field Sisters, this caused a major problem for GW.
It would certainly be a money winner, but it would cause almost total destruction to the Lord of the Rings and up-coming Hobbit range, this is in violation of its license to fully support this range, it couldn't with Sisters a reality, then this would cause a almost catastrophic impact of Fantasy with Fantasy players leaving this genre in their droves, and also this would also impact heavily on the rest of 40,000 itself, with only Chaos and Imperial forces surviving, factions like Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids would be left to rot on the shelves gathering dust.
Also this would impact on the tournament scene, the survey indicated that up to 80% of fielded armies would be Sisters Armies. This could not be allowed and so the Board of GW and CEO canned the whole shebang in March 2013.
All the new Sisters models that had been produced for the codex had been destroyed, the moulds destroyed and all data files also destroyed, but GW needed an excuse that made some sort of plausible sense and that was the undercutting issue could not be resolved and then leaked out to forums and other lines of communications.
Sisters would cause to much damage to the other lines in the world of GW, so GW are paying monies towards Forgeworld to take on Sisters for a minimum of 6 months and an option for a further 6 months, but the intent is to eventually squat Sisters as they did with Chaos Dwarfs.
Onto another issue I raised and that was Beastmen in 40,000, as Children of Chaos, the reason is that Chaos needs to add a further faction to make Abaddon's 13th Crusade workable with the fluff and ties in with the End of Times.
If you say a lie enough times, it eventually becomes truth. Can someone point me to the original post (obviously with attached video of Jes Goodwin speaking the words) where it was said that the sleeves and hair were an impenetrable barrier to plastic sisters? I've asked this question before and never got a response from those that parrot this myth.
Achaylus72 wrote: It would certainly be a money winner, but it would cause almost total destruction to the Lord of the Rings and up-coming Hobbit range, this is in violation of its license to fully support this range, it couldn't with Sisters a reality, then this would cause a almost catastrophic impact of Fantasy with Fantasy players leaving this genre in their droves, and also this would also impact heavily on the rest of 40,000 itself, with only Chaos and Imperial forces surviving, factions like Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids would be left to rot on the shelves gathering dust.
The release of Sisters would leave Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Necrons and Tyranids rotting on the shelf?
Nope. I do not know that comic, but here is the full illustration:
Spoiler:
I love how she looks more like an angry walking tank rather than pretty sexy lady. Her armor seems at least twice as thick as the one on the digidex cover, and maybe three times as thick as the one of 2nd edition cover.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The release of Sisters would leave Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Necrons and Tyranids rotting on the shelf?
AHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHA! x 1,000,000
Oh who honestly believed that tripe?
Yeah, we know that you do not like Sisters. No need to pretend to take seriously something that was very, very obviously a joke though.
At the risk of being a killjoy, this thread seems to have lost any pretence of fitting in to the "news and rumours" category - and yes I've contributed to that! - time to shut it down perhaps?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yes, the rumor was very weak from the start anyway. But I thought some people might have been interested by it.
Absolutely, and a perfectly valid and enjoyable post; I cling to the weakest rumours like a drowning man. I just think we've wrung this one dry - apologies for the mixed metaphors.
Did you mean my avatar? It is an official artwork from Games Workshop!
No, your signature. Butt-windows and armoured bikinis agogo if Roginshirozz did not-SoB, if most of their 'toughest girls in the galaxy' and other feminininily-inclined offerings are anything to go by.
(I'd much sooner Victoria Lamb tackled the subject)
I agree with you completely about the full artwork you took your avatar from!
the_Armyman wrote: If you say a lie enough times, it eventually becomes truth. Can someone point me to the original post (obviously with attached video of Jes Goodwin speaking the words) where it was said that the sleeves and hair were an impenetrable barrier to plastic sisters? I've asked this question before and never got a response from those that parrot this myth.
Yeah, Celestine has managed to tap into the power of the pixie cut.
Mmm, dat pixie cut.
Well it was me that spoke to Jes at length back in 2010, I even posted the original link in this thread.
I don't have video footage of our conversation, but if you read the original Warseer thread you will see that everything else Jes told me was true so you'll just have to trust me.
And I don't think enough people on here understand the limitations of plastic tooling for multi part kits to get the fact that somethings as simple as dynamic hair, robes and indented script on armour panels could cause so many problems but they really can.
Jes told me that the lessons learned from Dark Eldar could be put to use on plastic Sisters. When you consider that plastic Dark Eldar design was started in 2005 and apparently plastic sisters either pre date or were being worked on at around the same time then that means the original CAD designs for plastic SoB are getting on for 10 years old now.
A lot has changed in the last ten years, the plastic Dark Elves and Dark Eldar have proved it can be done so I dare say that Sisters will be revisited, but I can assure you the "hair and robes" thing is not BS, I know because I was there....
Phil Kelly also alluded to there being modelling issues with the Sisters just last year:
Oh yeah, one last thing about the Sisters of Battle. According to Phil Kelly, the reason why they never got plastic minis was because they couldn't be plastic moulded by the current process. He wasn't really sure what the issue was, but there was something about the sculpt which meant that it could only be cast in metal.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Yes, the rumor was very weak from the start anyway. But I thought some people might have been interested by it.
It's... Not all that weak, actually. Aside from that, on faeit we have two other accounts of the same seminar, and both have GW mentioning the Sisters. One also says that GW hinted at a supplement release for the Sisters at some point, and the other seemed to have Jes saying that he would want to commit fully to updating them, but seemingly not ruling out a plastic kit/dataslate. And reading all three accounts together, they do seem to more or less match up.
Regardless, seems that we've got GW people talking about an SoB release possibly happening in the future, which is very good.
Kilkrazy wrote: I like the page boy hairdo but it could just be changed to a helmet of the same shape, which would give the SoB a distinctive uniform look.
I don't know why they can't just produce the Sabbat helmet and roll with that. Perhaps have one or two helmless heads.
Not sure how I feel about Sisters becoming a FW product, I want a proper hard back codex and plastic kits.
If GW has given SoB to FW thinking the army is a 'non-starter' financially I hope FW do a good job of it and it sells well making GW want to take it back into the mainstream.
Well it was me that spoke to Jes at length back in 2010, I even posted the original link in this thread.
I don't have video footage of our conversation, but if you read the original Warseer thread you will see that everything else Jes told me was true so you'll just have to trust me.
Thanks for the link, Silver. I went back and skimmed the Warseer thread. Here's the problem I have. Sometimes, we tell small lies because the truth hurts. It's easier to tell someone (especially a fan) that a technical issue is causing a problem rather than a more complicated one such as finances or upper management. Throw money and desire at a technical issue, it goes away very fast. Nothing fixes a boss that doesn't care or a finance guy's profitability analysis.
Sisters were not ported to Finecast. The metal is disappearing from the webstore. I don't see them getting the Squat treatment, but I don't ever expect any more than what we have now.
Sisters were not ported to Finecast. The metal is disappearing from the webstore. I don't see them getting the Squat treatment, but I don't ever expect any more than what we have now.
Look at the Wood Elf range. See how little of it got ported to Finecast.
I look at plastic kits from companies like Dragon and Tamiya, and I think it can be done. I'm sure you could do the heads with a separate hair piece rather than casting the heads in one go. I think a distinct lack of interest by management is holding them back.
Sisters were not ported to Finecast. The metal is disappearing from the webstore. I don't see them getting the Squat treatment, but I don't ever expect any more than what we have now.
Look at the Wood Elf range. See how little of it got ported to Finecast.
My memory is pretty poor when it comes to Fantasy releases, but how much time was there between when Finecast started hitting the shelves and the most recent release of Wood Elves plastics? No Finecast could have been because they were already in the development cycle. Also, some Finecast is significantly more than none
Sisters were not ported to Finecast. The metal is disappearing from the webstore. I don't see them getting the Squat treatment, but I don't ever expect any more than what we have now.
Look at the Wood Elf range. See how little of it got ported to Finecast.
My memory is pretty poor when it comes to Fantasy releases, but how much time was there between when Finecast started hitting the shelves and the most recent release of Wood Elves plastics? No Finecast could have been because they were already in the development cycle. Also, some Finecast is significantly more than none
I'm not talking about things being "converted from plastic to Finecast".
To give you an idea though? There is a reason that Waywatchers and the Waywatcher Lord, along with most of the characters have been going out of stock for almost a month at a time.
Kilkrazy wrote: I like the page boy hairdo but it could just be changed to a helmet of the same shape, which would give the SoB a distinctive uniform look.
I don't know why they can't just produce the Sabbat helmet and roll with that. Perhaps have one or two helmless heads.
There is a reason why we dont have that many sisters with helmets and that is because they're not standard issue. They have to earn it first. Stupid reason? aye. but fluff has it that way right now.
edit: meant to say They're not given immediately to sisters. They -are- standard issue but they still have to earn them.
adamsouza wrote: They will never totally "squat" Sisters. Space Dwarfs were retired to get away from 40K being a parody of Warhammer Fantasy in space.
Yes, because a game with Space Humans, Space Super Knights, Space Tomb Kings, Space Super Vampires, Space Elves, Space Dark Elves, Space Evil Humans, Space Super Evil Humans, Daemons in SPAAAAACE! and Space Super Vikings as playable factions, with background mentions of Space Ratmen and Space Lizardmen could only be a parody of WHFB due to there being Space Dwarfs...
Don't get me wrong, Squats was (and still is) a silly name for the army, but cancelling them, and trying to pretend they never existed was a stupid move. In Epic, they worked - it is just a shame no-one could be bothered to put the effort in for standard 40k.
the_Armyman wrote: It's easier to tell someone (especially a fan) that a technical issue is causing a problem rather than a more complicated one such as finances or upper management.
But that's not the only reason that's been given. From the accounts of the seminar, the fact that the Sisters were a big job and Jes Goodwin wanting to properly commit to them also seem to be a factor. Which makes sense, he sounded set on doing them "properly" when he spoke about them in 2011.
teban wrote: There is a reason why we dont have that many sisters with helmets and that is because they're not standard issue. They have to earn it first. Stupid reason? aye. but fluff has it that way right now.
Pretty sure that's just FFG fluff. And FFG also has Sisters shooting lasers out of their eyes.
The codexes themselves have never said anything about it. More likely, it was just a design choice when they were made.
And to pretre~ I'm certain thats what the fluff says. However not official (as it seems to be from FFG). The second one is even a rarer case, as it is awarded to the best of them.
teban wrote: However not official (as it seems to be from FFG).
That doesn't make it unofficial or anything, it just doesn't really gel with the codex fluff, in places.
40K fluff is deliberately loose and up for interpretation, so it's more a case of picking whichever you prefer.
teban wrote: The second one is even a rarer case, as it is awarded to the best of them.
Oh, IIRC, the second one, with the fleur-de-lis on it, goes to Celestians. Maybe some Sister Superiors too, since models of helmeted Superiors have them also.
adamsouza wrote: Step 1.) Give Sister to FW Step 2.) If people start fielding entire FW armies of resin SIsters, demand dictates new plastic models
What model ranges (not single models or vehicles) they let FW do and then took them 'back'?
FW: alternate IG regiments (DKoK, Elysians)
-sold well
-entire armies of them
GW: they created an own regiment (Vostroyans) and produced just more Cadian stuff
FW: Chaos Dwarfs
-dunno if sold well, not good enough I suppose
-stopped (and several options are missing)
GW: a ship for Dreadfleet...
FW: 30k/Armour variants
-sold WELL
-entire armies of them
GW: Armour through the ages (1990 models)
Giving FW stuff doesn't indicate they want to check the waters, imo. My guess is, if FW sisters sell well, FW would just produce more of them.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I look at plastic kits from companies like Dragon and Tamiya, and I think it can be done. I'm sure you could do the heads with a separate hair piece rather than casting the heads in one go. I think a distinct lack of interest by management is holding them back.
The moulding could easily be done.
If GW have a problem ii is only that their current plastic technology is where the big boys' was 10 years ago GW have always been behind the curve. That's why the Knight Titan has zero points of articulation, compared to Gundam kits that have 14 articulations, moving weapon parts, done in multi-colour moulded plastic for less than 1/2 the price.
teban wrote: And to pretre~ I'm certain thats what the fluff says. However not official (as it seems to be from FFG). The second one is even a rarer case, as it is awarded to the best of them.
Yeah, FFG is it's own world, so I'll go with what's in my codex.
I'm not sure if this is an argument for or against?
I don't think anyone has said they can't, or haven't, but if you think that those kits, where the hair could only be considered natural looking if there was a metric feth ton of hair gel involved, are an example of doing it well.....
In the end, we're all talking out our backsides, myself included. The Sisters are unique in that they're the only army that's still all metal and haven't had a standalone, print codex since 2nd Edition. They have no analog so it's hard to make any meaningful comparisons. They're in a bizarre limbo, and only a handful of people at GW know their ultimate fate.
adamsouza wrote: Step 1.) Give Sister to FW Step 2.) If people start fielding entire FW armies of resin SIsters, demand dictates new plastic models
They will never totally "squat" Sisters. Space Dwarfs were retired to get away from 40K being a parody of Warhammer Fantasy in space.
But the Rules for 7th Edition mirror Fantasy currently...
I do agree with giving Sisters to FW though. Maybe sisters players should start that petition...
I wouldn't mind FW sisters, but at the rate FW are releasing non-HH models, I imagine it would be quicker to wait for GW to make the sisters in plastic.
adamsouza wrote: Step 1.) Give Sister to FW Step 2.) If people start fielding entire FW armies of resin SIsters, demand dictates new plastic models
They will never totally "squat" Sisters. Space Dwarfs were retired to get away from 40K being a parody of Warhammer Fantasy in space.
Actually, and unusually, the reason Squats were canned is a matter of record. Nobody in the Studio liked the vibe of Squats as they were in RT/2nd, but equally nobody could get excited about/have any ideas for reinventing them.
Personally, I think all they needed to do was look to Epic for inspiration, but I suspect that the tech wasn't there to make models in the right scale at the time.
I think something that used a few Superheavies and some Elite infantry could be an interesting army to introduce now GW are clearly capable of producing large models relatively easily, but it's probably too late.
Sadly, I think we have no one to blame but ourselves. We asked so often that it not only pissed them off from being constantly asked, it became a running joke to use at every event by those people who didn't even want them, further pissing them off. I think at this point GW refuses to touch them as a matter of stubborn pride more than any actually lack of desire to make them.
So congrats, Squats have been made extinct by Hive Fleet Internet.
Sadly, I think we have no one to blame but ourselves. We asked so often that it not only pissed them off from being constantly asked, it became a running joke to use at every event by those people who didn't even want them, further pissing them off. I think at this point GW refuses to touch them as a matter of stubborn pride more than any actually lack of desire to make them.
So congrats, Squats have been made extinct by Hive Fleet Internet.
Can you apply stockholm syndrome to a company? They aren't the victims... GW is a business that shouldn't worry about about running jokes or "asking them too much", I hope you're kidding. GW has 99 problems and caring what we say isn't one of them.
The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Meh, I have more hope in Raging Heroes creating proper sister models rather than GW. Even though we'd have to wait a year or so after their next kickstarter.
MadCowCrazy wrote: Meh, I have more hope in Raging Heroes creating proper sister models rather than GW. Even though we'd have to wait a year or so after their next kickstarter.
I'm not sure if this is an argument for or against?
I don't think anyone has said they can't, or haven't, but if you think that those kits, where the hair could only be considered natural looking if there was a metric feth ton of hair gel involved, are an example of doing it well.....
While the quality (or non-quality) of the hair on these mini is rather subjective, I strongly doubt that GW quality criteria are variable, and change according to the army. If they deemed those kits to be acceptable for High elves and dark elves, I found very dubious the claim that GW hold sister to a higher standard. Imo, the only logical conclusion that you can imply from the lack of support to the SOB, is that GW don't feel that they are worth the effort, they dont think that the return of investment would be good enough to justify the money and the time to update them in plastic.
Sadly, I think we have no one to blame but ourselves. We asked so often that it not only pissed them off from being constantly asked, it became a running joke to use at every event by those people who didn't even want them, further pissing them off. I think at this point GW refuses to touch them as a matter of stubborn pride more than any actually lack of desire to make them.
So congrats, Squats have been made extinct by Hive Fleet Internet.
Can you apply stockholm syndrome to a company? They aren't the victims... GW is a business that shouldn't worry about about running jokes or "asking them too much", I hope you're kidding. GW has 99 problems and caring what we say isn't one of them.
One, I'm not quite sure you understand what Stockholm Syndrome is, because that's not even close to an example of capture-bonding. Perhaps you mean a different antagonistic syndrome?
Two, when I state GW in that post, I really mean the design team, who are a group of people that have multiple times in the past expressed a very tired stance of "Please stop asking, it's not funny" on the constant "when will the Squats/Fomor return?" they got at every single Games Day/GW event. So yes, it is a valid concern that we ourselves may have killed our chances of new Squats/Demiurg/whatever they decide to name them.
I'm not sure if this is an argument for or against?
I don't think anyone has said they can't, or haven't, but if you think that those kits, where the hair could only be considered natural looking if there was a metric feth ton of hair gel involved, are an example of doing it well.....
While the quality (or non-quality) of the hair on these mini is rather subjective, I strongly doubt that GW quality criteria are variable, and change according to the army. If they deemed those kits to be acceptable for High elves and dark elves, I found very dubious the claim that GW hold sister to a higher standard. Imo, the only logical conclusion that you can imply from the lack of support to the SOB, is that GW don't feel that they are worth the effort, they dont think that the return of investment would be good enough to justify the money and the time to update them in plastic.
Or you can take Jes Goodwin at his word and that he won't sign off on them until he's satisfied and at the point in time he said that, it wasn't the case because they hadn't yet got the relevant toys needed to do that?
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
I love this idea, and would buy a lot of everything you listed!
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
I love this idea, and would buy a lot of everything you listed!
I'd love to see some of the units from the Armorcast Inquisitor lists "stolen" to round it out.
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
I love this idea, and would buy a lot of everything you listed!
I'd love to see some of the units from the Armorcast Inquisitor lists "stolen" to round it out.
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
I love this idea, and would buy a lot of everything you listed!
me too, i've kinda a soft spot for the Squats...and the Sisters
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
The vehicles are possible and wouldn't look too far off next to certain Space Marine Fliers. Heck, the Storm Talon already looks like a Gyrocopter.
The Squats themselves though... . The style of 40k has changed. The Orks have changed drastically and things like troopers with goat heads and Dwarfs with over-sized heads and beards are gone. They looked ridiculous even in Rogue trader next to Marines, Guard and even Eldar with mohawk and chain mail. The only acceptable models in my eyes were the plastic ones, and they looked just like short guardsmen with beards.
Personally I don't want to see an army of Dwarfs. An excentric engineer in an Inquisitors retinue? Conscript squads made of abhuman labour slaves like those in the Lathe Worlds book? Yes, why not. But then, these wouldn't be Squats. If you take the dwarvish stuff from them, they're nothing that would deserve an army (would lead to something like the Grymns from Hasslefree I guess). And if not, they would be just Fantasy Dwarfs in space, like Mantics Forgefathers (don't like them at all).
This was their future in 2nd edition, and I was and am glad it was cancelled.
Uriels_Flame wrote: I do agree with giving Sisters to FW though. Maybe sisters players should start that petition...
Eugh, no. SoB at FW would mean releases at a snail's pace, as well as being more obscure than if they were at GW. Not to mention how some people are awkward towards FW. Nah, they're better off as a GW army.
...Which seems to be where they're staying for the moment anyway. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had GW people talking about working on them in the future at the recent seminar.
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
The vehicles are possible and wouldn't look too far off next to certain Space Marine Fliers. Heck, the Storm Talon already looks like a Gyrocopter.
The Squats themselves though... . The style of 40k has changed. The Orks have changed drastically and things like troopers with goat heads and Dwarfs with over-sized heads and beards are gone. They looked ridiculous even in Rogue trader next to Marines, Guard and even Eldar with mohawk and chain mail. The only acceptable models in my eyes were the plastic ones, and they looked just like short guardsmen with beards.
Personally I don't want to see an army of Dwarfs. An excentric engineer in an Inquisitors retinue? Conscript squads made of abhuman labour slaves like those in the Lathe Worlds book? Yes, why not. But then, these wouldn't be Squats. If you take the dwarvish stuff from them, they're nothing that would deserve an army (would lead to something like the Grymns from Hasslefree I guess). And if not, they would be just Fantasy Dwarfs in space, like Mantics Forgefathers (don't like them at all).
This was their future in 2nd edition, and I was and am glad it was cancelled.
So you're saying they don't belong in current 40K based in the fact that there style is out of date, then cite the example of Orks who's style has altered significantly?
They would be a blank slate to end all blank slates, they've got no hangovers like Sisters have, or Dark Eldar had before their last update. You're absolutely right that the "short Vikings" trope would be awful, but a pragmatic, secular faction with a really tough gritty edge (a certain fatalism at being near exterminated by the Tyranids would be a nice theme) and a high degree of tech competence could definitely work. The aesthetics would have to work too, of course, but I think there's potential there now, perhaps for the first time since Rogue
Trader.
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
The vehicles are possible and wouldn't look too far off next to certain Space Marine Fliers. Heck, the Storm Talon already looks like a Gyrocopter.
The Squats themselves though... . The style of 40k has changed. The Orks have changed drastically and things like troopers with goat heads and Dwarfs with over-sized heads and beards are gone. They looked ridiculous even in Rogue trader next to Marines, Guard and even Eldar with mohawk and chain mail. The only acceptable models in my eyes were the plastic ones, and they looked just like short guardsmen with beards.
Personally I don't want to see an army of Dwarfs. An excentric engineer in an Inquisitors retinue? Conscript squads made of abhuman labour slaves like those in the Lathe Worlds book? Yes, why not. But then, these wouldn't be Squats. If you take the dwarvish stuff from them, they're nothing that would deserve an army (would lead to something like the Grymns from Hasslefree I guess). And if not, they would be just Fantasy Dwarfs in space, like Mantics Forgefathers (don't like them at all).
This was their future in 2nd edition, and I was and am glad it was cancelled.
Exactly. Time and money put on squat means that their is less time and money to put on other projects. And since pretty much anything is more interesting than squats, I can only rejoice at the squatting of the squat. Hell, mantic forgefather are a perfect example of the mediocrity and boringness of the dwarf in space concept.
MadCowCrazy wrote: Meh, I have more hope in Raging Heroes creating proper sister models rather than GW. Even though we'd have to wait a year or so after their next kickstarter.
MadCowCrazy wrote: Meh, I have more hope in Raging Heroes creating proper sister models rather than GW. Even though we'd have to wait a year or so after their next kickstarter.
Yeah, I'm still wary of RH after their last KS.
What happened?
Super delays, poor communication, etc. Although I understand they finally started shipping.
Azreal13 wrote:
So you're saying they don't belong in current 40K based in the fact that there style is out of date, then cite the example of Orks who's style has altered significantly?
Yes. Orks had some potential (they already changed in 1st edition from sadistic slavers to funny green punks/hooligans). Squats... not so much. Orks also got more bestial and larger (not exactly an option for Squats ) and became the better 'Easy Riders'. And I didn't said they shouldn't belong to 40k (there're always niches). Just not as an army.
Azreal13 wrote:They would be a blank slate to end all blank slates, they've got no hangovers like Sisters have, or Dark Eldar had before their last update. You're absolutely right that the "short Vikings" trope would be awful, but a pragmatic, secular faction with a really tough gritty edge (a certain fatalism at being near exterminated by the Tyranids would be a nice theme) and a high degree of tech competence could definitely work. The aesthetics would have to work too, of course, but I think there's potential there now, perhaps for the first time since Rogue
Trader.
There were always examples of isolated human civilizations with tech from the Dark Age. Why should a major faction be one consisting of short, bearded abhumans working in mines, worshipping their ancestors and holding grudges?
streetsamurai wrote:
Exactly. Time and money put on squat means that their is less time and money to put on other projects. And since pretty much anything is more interesting than squats, I can only rejoice at the squatting of the squat. Hell, mantic forgefather are a perfect example of the mediocrity and boringness of the dwarf in space concept.
This too. Sisters, Genestealer Cults, Arbites, Adeptus Mechanicus, Gue'vesa, mutants - all of them are better even for a single kit with a dataslate.
Azreal13 wrote:
So you're saying they don't belong in current 40K based in the fact that there style is out of date, then cite the example of Orks who's style has altered significantly?
Yes. Orks had some potential (they already changed in 1st edition from sadistic slavers to funny green punks/hooligans). Squats... not so much. Orks also got more bestial and larger (not exactly an option for Squats ) and became the better 'Easy Riders'. And I didn't said they shouldn't belong to 40k (there're always niches). Just not as an army.
Sorry dude, your whole argument is basically "Squats shouldn't be an army because I don't think Squats should be an army" which is fine, but this has already gone further off topic in a Sisters thread than I'd like.
Azreal13 wrote:They would be a blank slate to end all blank slates, they've got no hangovers like Sisters have, or Dark Eldar had before their last update. You're absolutely right that the "short Vikings" trope would be awful, but a pragmatic, secular faction with a really tough gritty edge (a certain fatalism at being near exterminated by the Tyranids would be a nice theme) and a high degree of tech competence could definitely work. The aesthetics would have to work too, of course, but I think there's potential there now, perhaps for the first time since Rogue
Trader.
There were always examples of isolated human civilizations with tech from the Dark Age. Why should a major faction be one consisting of short, bearded abhumans working in mines, worshipping their ancestors and holding grudges?
Why shouldn't they? Why would they still need to be all of those things?
streetsamurai wrote:
Exactly. Time and money put on squat means that their is less time and money to put on other projects. And since pretty much anything is more interesting than squats, I can only rejoice at the squatting of the squat. Hell, mantic forgefather are a perfect example of the mediocrity and boringness of the dwarf in space concept.
This too. Sisters, Genestealer Cults, Arbites, Adeptus Mechanicus, Gue'vesa, mutants - all of them are better even for a single kit with a dataslate.
Again "I don't think these things should be a faction because I don't think they should be a faction." You'd prefer more Space Marines? Writing things off because they'd be "mediocre and boring" when they don't even exist is utterly asinine.
Sorry dude, your whole argument is basically "Squats shouldn't be an army because I don't think Squats should be an army" which is fine, but this has already gone further off topic in a Sisters thread than I'd like.
Yeah, will stop now (though... I didn't start it).
Azreal13 wrote:
Why shouldn't they? Why would they still need to be all of those things?
To be Squats and not something out of nowhere? Without some runes their vehicles look just Imperial. And even less 'High-Tech'.
Azreal13 wrote:Again "I don't think these things should be a faction because I don't think they should be a faction." You'd prefer more Space Marines? Writing things off because they'd be "mediocre and boring" when they don't even exist is utterly asinine.
You wanted to bring back Squats. Now you say you want something utterly different. Non-Squats, Neo-Squats. Whatever.
And of course I want more Space Marines, that's why I mentioned several other things GW should do.
And well, your whole argument is, basically, "Squats should be an army because I think Squats should be an army, but it shouldn't be a Squat army, because I want something different to a Squat army, so bring back the Squats".
Well, back to the Sisters. I hope we agree that they should be an army (with the Ecclesiarchy).
MadCowCrazy wrote: Meh, I have more hope in Raging Heroes creating proper sister models rather than GW. Even though we'd have to wait a year or so after their next kickstarter.
Yeah, I'm still wary of RH after their last KS.
What happened?
Super delays, poor communication, etc. Although I understand they finally started shipping.
Yes, they started shipping 23 of the 250 minis the campaign helped create. And a month later are still not done shipping those.
Azreal13 wrote:
Why shouldn't they? Why would they still need to be all of those things?
To be Squats and not something out of nowhere? Without some runes their vehicles look just Imperial. And even less 'High-Tech'.
As you rightly pointed out, Orks style has changed and evolved, while retaining an Orkish essence, my contention is why couldn't Squats?
EDIT
Weirdly, this popped up on my Facebook feed this evening, making no pretensions about being anything other than a "what if" but I think the artist has nailed the vibe exactly
Azreal13 wrote:Again "I don't think these things should be a faction because I don't think they should be a faction." You'd prefer more Space Marines? Writing things off because they'd be "mediocre and boring" when they don't even exist is utterly asinine.
You wanted to bring back Squats. Now you say you want something utterly different. Non-Squats, Neo-Squats. Whatever.
And of course I want more Space Marines, that's why I mentioned several other things GW should do.
And well, your whole argument is, basically, "Squats should be an army because I think Squats should be an army, but it shouldn't be a Squat army, because I want something different to a Squat army, so bring back the Squats".
Well, back to the Sisters. I hope we agree that they should be an army (with the Ecclesiarchy).
Yes, I agree Sisters should be an army, but I also agree with what Jes Goodwin apparently said, which is they'll be redone when they can be done right. This is what prompted the Squats thought, in that now could be the right time for them, as the rules and kits are now a reality that could accommodate them in the game in a way they simply couldn't before, and allow for a different playstyle from the currently established factions.
Your objections seem to be based firmly in what they were, rather in what they could be, I direct you to the Necrons, and more especially the Dark Eldar as examples of how an army's aesthetic and character can change between Codex updates, there isn't even the legacy of an existing codex for people to get upset about in this case.
Of course, Squats should be short, probably have the Rune thing and use large amounts of big shooty stuff, just like Sisters should be women wearing power armour with a heavy religious motif, but to write off anything as massively out of date as either faction based on what they were, when it is clear that a substantial update would have to revise and expand on that history substantially is daft.
But, it won't happen for Squats (unless someone important from GW is reading and agrees with me) so the point is moot.
Probably not happening for SoB anytime soon either to be fair.
adamsouza wrote: After the debacle that was the Chapter House Lawsuit, I think the greatest barrier to Squats/Demiurg coming back to 40K is Mantic's Forge Fathers
Why would that stop them? GW doesn't believe they have any competition.
A real, new army would give me pause to look back at playing 40k actively. But it would have to also come with some serious business changes. I too saw that Squats image on Facebook and was floored.
adamsouza wrote: After the debacle that was the Chapter House Lawsuit, I think the greatest barrier to Squats/Demiurg coming back to 40K is Mantic's Forge Fathers
Why would that stop them? GW doesn't believe they have any competition.
Because they would have ZERO claim to IP.
What makes our Space Dwarfs completely different ? SKULLS, LOTS AND LOTS OF SKULLS !!! Oh, and they are not "dwarfs" they are Demiurg. Completely different from Dwarfs. Our artists were specially raised in a cave and have never seen or heard of "dwarf", They came up with the completely original concept off of the top of their head.
I dont like squats. And i really like dwarfs, specially in space. I would never be impressed with squats looking like that, and i dont think GW know what to do with dwarfs anyway (look at those fantasy gnomes). By the way, i think Mantic have done a great work with my beloved fantasy race, in booth sci-fi and med-fan.
This IMHO, but i think GW can keep space dwarfs untouched, and try to dont squat Sisters.
PS: if you really want squats who look like that, blend the new fantasy dwarfs kits with space marines and IG. All plastic squat army...
Vermis wrote: No, your signature. Butt-windows and armoured bikinis agogo if Roginshirozz did not-SoB, if most of their 'toughest girls in the galaxy' and other feminininily-inclined offerings are anything to go by.
Oh, you mean like the male marines. But of course everybody knows that the female body is not interesting and nobody would ever put a power bikini on a female character. Males, on the other hand, are known for displaying their body in tantalizing ways to get their opponent off-guard. Being sexy is the only way they can hope to win!
teban wrote: There is a reason why we dont have that many sisters with helmets and that is because they're not standard issue. They have to earn it first. Stupid reason? aye. but fluff has it that way right now.
Pretty sure that's just FFG fluff. And FFG also has Sisters shooting lasers out of their eyes.
The codexes themselves have never said anything about it. More likely, it was just a design choice when they were made.
I will need to check, but I seem to remember that from Codex: Witch Hunter actually.
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
The vehicles are possible and wouldn't look too far off next to certain Space Marine Fliers. Heck, the Storm Talon already looks like a Gyrocopter.
The Squats themselves though... . The style of 40k has changed. The Orks have changed drastically and things like troopers with goat heads and Dwarfs with over-sized heads and beards are gone. They looked ridiculous even in Rogue trader next to Marines, Guard and even Eldar with mohawk and chain mail. The only acceptable models in my eyes were the plastic ones, and they looked just like short guardsmen with beards.
Personally I don't want to see an army of Dwarfs. An excentric engineer in an Inquisitors retinue? Conscript squads made of abhuman labour slaves like those in the Lathe Worlds book? Yes, why not. But then, these wouldn't be Squats. If you take the dwarvish stuff from them, they're nothing that would deserve an army (would lead to something like the Grymns from Hasslefree I guess). And if not, they would be just Fantasy Dwarfs in space, like Mantics Forgefathers (don't like them at all).
This was their future in 2nd edition, and I was and am glad it was cancelled.
Exactly. Time and money put on squat means that their is less time and money to put on other projects. And since pretty much anything is more interesting than squats, I can only rejoice at the squatting of the squat. Hell, mantic forgefather are a perfect example of the mediocrity and boringness of the dwarf in space concept.
Time and money put on sisters means that their is less time and money to put on other projects. And since pretty much anything is more interesting than sisters, I can only rejoice at the squatting of the sisters.
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
The vehicles are possible and wouldn't look too far off next to certain Space Marine Fliers. Heck, the Storm Talon already looks like a Gyrocopter.
The Squats themselves though... . The style of 40k has changed. The Orks have changed drastically and things like troopers with goat heads and Dwarfs with over-sized heads and beards are gone. They looked ridiculous even in Rogue trader next to Marines, Guard and even Eldar with mohawk and chain mail. The only acceptable models in my eyes were the plastic ones, and they looked just like short guardsmen with beards.
Personally I don't want to see an army of Dwarfs. An excentric engineer in an Inquisitors retinue? Conscript squads made of abhuman labour slaves like those in the Lathe Worlds book? Yes, why not. But then, these wouldn't be Squats. If you take the dwarvish stuff from them, they're nothing that would deserve an army (would lead to something like the Grymns from Hasslefree I guess). And if not, they would be just Fantasy Dwarfs in space, like Mantics Forgefathers (don't like them at all).
This was their future in 2nd edition, and I was and am glad it was cancelled.
Exactly. Time and money put on squat means that their is less time and money to put on other projects. And since pretty much anything is more interesting than squats, I can only rejoice at the squatting of the squat. Hell, mantic forgefather are a perfect example of the mediocrity and boringness of the dwarf in space concept.
Time and money put on sisters means that their is less time and money to put on other projects. And since pretty much anything is more interesting than sisters, I can only rejoice at the squatting of the sisters.
Not sure if your serious, but unfortunately most people within GW think like this.
I also think with the recent SJW rise Squats won't happen.
And if they did and looked like that well, let's just say I think some of my faith in GW would be restored, but that will not happen any time soon especially as Kirby has his claws in far too deep.
It looks like people are still stuck in denial or bargaining, twenty years (or more) after the fact. Squats are dead, man; let it go. Let it go.
As for the Facebook pic: ecch. That's the same goofy short vikings/fantasy dwarfs in space thing that Dryaktylos and Streetsamurai rightly sneered at a page ago. That, as was also mentioned, Mantic already churns out.
On sisters: I have to agree that having to 'earn' a helmet sounds a bit daft; especially after they've already been given a suit of some of the most advanced and impervious armour in the imperium, and the fact that in 40K, it's usually the old vets, officers and leaders who run around with their heads dangerously exposed. I'll echo that the most likely reason for lack of helmets is "'cos they was sculpted like that."
Oh, you mean like the male marines. But of course everybody knows that the female body is not interesting and nobody would ever put a power bikini on a female character. Males, on the other hand, are known for displaying their body in tantalizing ways to get their opponent off-guard. Being sexy is the only way they can hope to win!
Maybe that's the reason for all those helmetless sergeants and things? Their square, blocky grimaces are too sexay for orks and nids to cope with?
Srsly tho, I agree that the ridonkulous chainmail bikini trope (and particularly most 'female SW storm trooper' concepts I've seen, which your male armour sig brings to mind) shows just how seriously women are taken in some popular sci-fi and fantasy. That alone is a top reason why sisters, power-armoured to the gills and meaning business, should be revamped and reinjected in 40K.
On sisters: I have to agree that having to 'earn' a helmet sounds a bit daft; especially after they've already been given a suit of some of the most advanced and impervious armour in the imperium, and the fact that in 40K, it's usually the old vets, officers and leaders who run around with their heads dangerously exposed. I'll echo that the most likely reason for lack of helmets is "'cos they was sculpted like that."
I bet you are right ; "'cos they was sculpted like that."
But coincidentally it would not be entirely unrealistic fluff. Soviet paratroopers going into battle in Afghanistan in their berets, KGB border guards wearing their dress caps in the field in Afghanistan , German officers in service caps on the front line in WW II , just a few examples. A pride thing.
As for SoB , Troike expressed the thought somewhere that the SoB bob cut was the source of their mojo. Maybe they think of it in those terms , and a helmet otherwise isn't so much about another piece of practical gear, but in this case a further distinction.
TheKbob wrote: A real, new army would give me pause to look back at playing 40k actively. But it would have to also come with some serious business changes. I too saw that Squats image on Facebook and was floored.
There are plenty of Not Squat models from several other manufacturers such as Hasslefree and Mantic.
It would be nice to have a proper Squat codex but you could use the IG codex.
teban wrote: There is a reason why we dont have that many sisters with helmets and that is because they're not standard issue. They have to earn it first. Stupid reason? aye. but fluff has it that way right now.
Pretty sure that's just FFG fluff. And FFG also has Sisters shooting lasers out of their eyes.
The codexes themselves have never said anything about it. More likely, it was just a design choice when they were made.
I will need to check, but I seem to remember that from Codex: Witch Hunter actually.
Just went through the Witch Hunters codex, didn't see it mentioned. It did, however, say that the helmet with the Fleur on it goes to "Sisters who have performed with exceptional courage and honour".
So yeah, if it's not there then it must be from that FFG fluff that has Sisters in the Calixis Sector needing to earn their helmet.
KesaAnna wrote: As for SoB , Troike expressed the thought somewhere that the SoB bob cut was the source of their mojo. Maybe they think of it in those terms , and a helmet otherwise isn't so much about another piece of practical gear, but in this case a further distinction.
Haha, nah, I was just being silly. I don't think that they've ever been noted to place any real significance on their hairdo. It's probably just a tradition for them.
This is a minor issue with SoB fluff, though. Little details like this, or the white hair thing, have gone unexplained. They probably are just design choices, but still.
Troike wrote: Just went through the Witch Hunters codex, didn't see it mentioned. It did, however, say that the helmet with the Fleur on it goes to "Sisters who have performed with exceptional courage and honour".
I am pretty sure I read that somewhere though, and it was not FFG. I will check my collection.
Troike wrote: This is a minor issue with SoB fluff, though. Little details like this, or the white hair thing, have gone unexplained. They probably are just design choices, but still.
If that can be considered relevant, there is at least one official artwork featuring a black sister with short, dark hair.
Spoiler:
The bobcut is almost always there, but there are exception. The white hair is only often there. None of Andrea Uderzo's sisters had white hair, and those are among the best official artworks for Sisters, ever. Neither does my avatar.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vermis wrote: Maybe that's the reason for all those helmetless sergeants and things? Their square, blocky grimaces are too sexay for orks and nids to cope with?
Yeah, but those sergents would be much much better if they left a big gaping hole in their armor around the chest and crotch. Only the lower legs and arms need to be covered in armor. Everything else is superfluous and would hinder their natural agility.
If they do not wear pasties, it means the author wants to censor everything and put men under a burqua .
Vermis wrote: Srsly tho, I agree that the ridonkulous chainmail bikini trope (and particularly most 'female SW storm trooper' concepts I've seen, which your male armour sig brings to mind) shows just how seriously women are taken in some popular sci-fi and fantasy. That alone is a top reason why sisters, power-armoured to the gills and meaning business, should be revamped and reinjected in 40K.
I know .
Here is a feel-good article about some nice female storm trooper armor for you.
adamsouza wrote: I'd be okay if 9 out of 10 sisters started wearing helmets.
Serioulsy, what is the point of all that armor if you are going to leave your head exposed ?
Yeah, I always thought that they should just skip the whole hair thing and just give everyone helmets.
I understand that they want the sisters to look impressive and distinct, but if the hair is slowing down progress that much, a wise course of action would be to just drop it and just give 99% of the army helmets. A bit like what they do with marines, really.
After all, the HQ choices in most armies tend not to be multi-pose, right? I recall them usually being quite static.
Azreal13 wrote: The environment is right now that a Colossus, Leviathan, Overlord Airship, Gyrocpters, heck, even the Cyclops and Land Train are technically feasible, both from a technical and rules perspective.
Throw in some infantry options (Space Marine Statline with I2, Flak Armour, Lasgun and Stubborn) for a generic troops unit and an Exo Armour unit, and your mostly there!
Dammit, this rules thing is easy!!
The vehicles are possible and wouldn't look too far off next to certain Space Marine Fliers. Heck, the Storm Talon already looks like a Gyrocopter.
The Squats themselves though... . The style of 40k has changed. The Orks have changed drastically and things like troopers with goat heads and Dwarfs with over-sized heads and beards are gone. They looked ridiculous even in Rogue trader next to Marines, Guard and even Eldar with mohawk and chain mail. The only acceptable models in my eyes were the plastic ones, and they looked just like short guardsmen with beards.
Personally I don't want to see an army of Dwarfs. An excentric engineer in an Inquisitors retinue? Conscript squads made of abhuman labour slaves like those in the Lathe Worlds book? Yes, why not. But then, these wouldn't be Squats. If you take the dwarvish stuff from them, they're nothing that would deserve an army (would lead to something like the Grymns from Hasslefree I guess). And if not, they would be just Fantasy Dwarfs in space, like Mantics Forgefathers (don't like them at all).
This was their future in 2nd edition, and I was and am glad it was cancelled.
Exactly. Time and money put on squat means that their is less time and money to put on other projects. And since pretty much anything is more interesting than squats, I can only rejoice at the squatting of the squat. Hell, mantic forgefather are a perfect example of the mediocrity and boringness of the dwarf in space concept.
Time and money put on sisters means that their is less time and money to put on other projects. And since pretty much anything is more interesting than sisters, I can only rejoice at the squatting of the sisters.
Lol, nice one
But in fact, i'm not really a SOB fan. While I'd like to see them in plastic, there's a lot of thing that I think would make more interesting additions to the 40k universe.
well, yeah, I think there maybe should be more of an option for helmets . ......... BUT
Ironically the example of the girl in the Stormtrooper costume shows ; when she puts on the helmet only the merest curve to the hips and structure of the knees and thighs would give you any hint of the sex. And be honest, if no one told you it was a girl, would you even notice it unless you were an art or anatomy major ? I.E . IT MIGHT AS WELL BE A GUY.
Notice it is three pictures without the helmet , and only , and finally, one picture with the helmet . A mere design choice ? If it is, it just happens to be the only reasonable, effective design choice. If it were ONLY the picture with the helmet , the whole effect would be : " Hoo Hum . What am I even looking at and why ? Just another little boy in a stormtrooper costume. "
Back to : Might as well be a guy = no reason not to squat them.
Avatars suggest the same thing. It's either helmet -less avatars , rather obvious Hathor the cow goddess proportions, or " I didn't know that was an SoB fan . "
It's the best compromise between chain mail bikinis or dull-as-dishwater - and-same-as-everyone -else - irrelevancy.
Personally , I'm not surprised or dismayed that the faction hasn't gotten much attention lately. why should it ? It's a darn good faction and a darn nice army.
Pricey ? hmmm, is there any faction you can get for 500 bucks ? I don't know about the rest of the world, but knowing Americans , if there is a 500 dollar army they wouldn't want it for that reason. " I wanna drive a motor scooter or a sub-compact when I grow up ! " isn't the ethos at all.
There are, as far as I know, only two reasons basically to play SoB :
-- You like girls
-- You like the religious theme.
You don't really like either ? Then it isn't for you.
migooo wrote: Squat fans don't die... and don't let things go.... It's that grudge thing you know?
As a one-time owner of a 40k and Epic Squat army, I can assure you I have long since let things go.
I think most of the fans have long since given up waiting, and moved on.
Mantic have a pretty cool range of Forge Fathers now, which looks to be expanding both now and in future, which will scratch the itch for this kind of thing.
There are also some pretty cool range 'space dwarf' type ranges from other manufacturers.
there's a lot of thing that I think would make more interesting additions to the 40k universe
Whereas in reality what is produced is sadly more slightly different Space Marines with increasingly desperate additions to try and make them look a bit different - see the horrible space marine flyers GW did and the Blood guns and blood missiles etc etc as well as all the Dark Angels nonsense....
Also when they do occasionally do something different and unexpected, reviving a almost forgotten faction - Imperial Knights - they produce a brilliant model and sell loads. No lesson to learn there..........
Look at all the varied kickstarters and model ranges - female figures do sell - GW can make them but choses on the whole not to (same as its steadily phasing out female characters in the codexes...........)
well, yeah, I think there maybe should be more of an option for helmets . ......... BUT
Ironically the example of the girl in the Stormtrooper costume shows ; when she puts on the helmet only the merest curve to the hips and structure of the knees and thighs would give you any hint of the sex. And be honest, if no one told you it was a girl, would you even notice it unless you were an art or anatomy major ? I.E . IT MIGHT AS WELL BE A GUY.
Notice it is three pictures without the helmet , and only , and finally, one picture with the helmet . A mere design choice ? If it is, it just happens to be the only reasonable, effective design choice. If it were ONLY the picture with the helmet , the whole effect would be : " Hoo Hum . What am I even looking at and why ? Just another little boy in a stormtrooper costume. "
Back to : Might as well be a guy = no reason not to squat them.
Avatars suggest the same thing. It's either helmet -less avatars , rather obvious Hathor the cow goddess proportions, or " I didn't know that was an SoB fan . "
It's the best compromise between chain mail bikinis or dull-as-dishwater - and-same-as-everyone -else - irrelevancy.
Well, in reciprocation of Oxayotl's link (nice one!) and in response to this, take some time to have a browse through the Repair Her Armor tumblr. Have a good, deep dig. You don't have to bother reading most of the text.
Also, 11-12 year old girls don't tend towards hourglass figures, y'know? For that matter neither does their painstakingly measured and custom-made stormtrooper amour.
(Also also, thanks to this topic, I'm seriously considering dropping fitty quid into GW's coffers for a sister squad. Been a while since I considered giving 'em much money for anything.)
It's just occurred to me, in all of the accounts of the seminar I've seen, Jes doesn't seem to cite modelling issues as a barrier to an SoB release, just that they would have been a big job and required them to reallt get down and focus on them (though he apparently mentioned a dataslate release as a partial way around this). But anyway, this would tie in with a report from Enter the Citadel where GWdevs apparently said that they now had the technology to do plastic Sisters.
Maybe I'm reading a little too much into this, though. But it may be the case that the modelling issues... aren't really an issue anymore.
Vermis wrote: (Also also, thanks to this topic, I'm seriously considering dropping fitty quid into GW's coffers for a sister squad. Been a while since I considered giving 'em much money for anything.)
Go for it. Sisters can be a pretty good ally choice, too.
Troike wrote: It's just occurred to me, in all of the accounts of the seminar I've seen, Jes doesn't seem to cite modelling issues as a barrier to an SoB release, just that they would have been a big job and required them to reallt get down and focus on them (though he apparently mentioned a dataslate release as a partial way around this). But anyway, this would tie in with a report from Enter the Citadel where GWdevs apparently said that they now had the technology to do plastic Sisters.
Maybe I'm reading a little too much into this, though. But it may be the case that the modelling issues... aren't really an issue anymore.
Well yeah, and considering the erm, sometimes questionable quality of the stuff that GW has released recently, I very much doubt there's someone at GW pulling the plug due to "sculpts not being good enough"
Getting back to the grimdark psychotic religious fanatics roots is just what 40k fluff would need ATM, so let's hope they come up with a mini-dex at some point - although I can see the Sisters getting the 'Stormtrooper treatment'..
prowla wrote: so let's hope they come up with a mini-dex at some point - although I can see the Sisters getting the 'Stormtrooper treatment'..
Mate, nah, Sisters are full-codex material. Always have been. Really, they have too many units to be a mini-dex. And I don't think that "I would like to put in time to fully update this army" indicates that they'll get some three unit codex.
Still, as was apparently hinted at/suggested in the seminar, a dataslate to tide us over would be nice.
prowla wrote: so let's hope they come up with a mini-dex at some point - although I can see the Sisters getting the 'Stormtrooper treatment'..
Mate, nah, Sisters are full-codex material. Always have been. Really, they have too many units to be a mini-dex. And I don't think that "I would like to put in time to fully update this army" indicates that they'll get some three unit codex.
Still, as was apparently hinted at/suggested in the seminar, a dataslate to tide us over would be nice.
Besides, what would a "mini-dex" for Sisters even mean? GW already produces...mini-dexes in the forms of books like Imperial Knights and Scions Tempestus; they're nicely priced right at the same level of full codexes.
Besides, what would a "mini-dex" for Sisters even mean? GW already produces...mini-dexes in the forms of books like Imperial Knights and Scions Tempestus; they're nicely priced right at the same level of full codexes.
Same price, half the effort.. sounds about right for GW?
Mate, nah, Sisters are full-codex material. Always have been. Really, they have too many units to be a mini-dex.
Sisters with boltguns (Troop Choice)
Sisters with Heavy Weapons (Heavy Choice)
Sisters with Jet Packs (Assault Choice)
Fraternis militia (The other cannon fodder Troop choice)
Immolator (Dedicated transport)
What else is there that it truly sisters, and not just something slapped onto the codex after the 54mm Inquisitor game ?
Mate, nah, Sisters are full-codex material. Always have been. Really, they have too many units to be a mini-dex.
Sisters with boltguns (Troop Choice)
Sisters with Heavy Weapons (Heavy Choice)
Sisters with Jet Packs (Assault Choice)
Fraternis militia (The other cannon fodder Troop choice)
Immolator (Dedicated transport)
What else is there that it truly sisters, and not just something slapped onto the codex after the 54mm Inquisitor game ?
Wow, you really don't know much about the subject you're arguing about, do you?
Excorcist
Repentia
Penitent engines
Cannoness
Three of those units are highly unique with nothing else quite like them. The Cannoness really needs a multi part plastic kit like the SM captain.
Mate, nah, Sisters are full-codex material. Always have been. Really, they have too many units to be a mini-dex.
Sisters with boltguns (Troop Choice)
Sisters with Heavy Weapons (Heavy Choice)
Sisters with Jet Packs (Assault Choice)
Fraternis militia (The other cannon fodder Troop choice)
Immolator (Dedicated transport)
What else is there that it truly sisters, and not just something slapped onto the codex after the 54mm Inquisitor game ?
Penitent Engines (Heavy Support)
Exorcist (Heavy Support)
Repentia (Elite or FA?)
Special Characters such as Celestine, Palatine and others
Canoness
Lets turn it around and look at say any non Codex Chapter (Blood Angels and Dark Angels) that apparently need their own Codex even though the same could have applied to them aas Black Templars - couple of special characters, Chapter tactics an maybe a unit or two
What else is there that is truly (insert Chapter) and not just something slapped onto the codex in 5th or 6th ed to make them a bit more special
KesaAnna wrote: well, yeah, I think there maybe should be more of an option for helmets . ......... BUT
Ironically the example of the girl in the Stormtrooper costume shows ; when she puts on the helmet only the merest curve to the hips and structure of the knees and thighs would give you any hint of the sex. And be honest, if no one told you it was a girl, would you even notice it unless you were an art or anatomy major ? I.E . IT MIGHT AS WELL BE A GUY.
Notice it is three pictures without the helmet , and only , and finally, one picture with the helmet . A mere design choice ? If it is, it just happens to be the only reasonable, effective design choice. If it were ONLY the picture with the helmet , the whole effect would be : " Hoo Hum . What am I even looking at and why ? Just another little boy in a stormtrooper costume. "
Yeah. That is what is awesome. The first time you realize that in that big, non-gendered armor, there is a girl (i.e. Metroid ), it is an oddity. The second time you realize that in that big, non gendered armor, there is a girl (i.e. Shadowsun ), it is an oddity. The tenth time it happens, it is a trope. By the hundredth time, you will not be surprised, because you will have stop to assume non-gendered armor contain males.
KesaAnna wrote: There are, as far as I know, only two reasons basically to play SoB :
-- You like girls
-- You like the religious theme.
Or you like the “Obvious display of obscene wealth and bad taste in a very baroque fashion” theme.
Vermis wrote: Well, in reciprocation of Oxayotl's link (nice one!) and in response to this, take some time to have a browse through the Repair Her Armor tumblr.
Wow, you really don't know much about the subject you're arguing about, do you?
I was discussing, not arguing, and I managed not to be insulting while doing it
Excorcist = not a whirlwind
Repentia = I forgot about these, as they have never interested me
Penitent engines = They don't have a sister strapped into them, always thought of them as inquisition.
Cannoness = Didn't mention her. She's a sister who happens to be a leader.
Current Sisters Codex gives them
1 Troop Choices (Battle Sisters)
2 Elite Choices (Celestian, Repentia)
3 Fast Attack (Seraphim, Dominion)
3 Heavy (Exorcist, Penitent Engine, Retributor)
Wow, you really don't know much about the subject you're arguing about, do you?
I was discussing, not arguing, and I managed not to be insulting while doing it
Excorcist = not a whirlwind
Repentia = I forgot about these, as they have never interested me
Penitent engines = They don't have a sister strapped into them, always thought of them as inquisition.
Cannoness = Didn't mention her. She's a sister who happens to be a leader.
Current Sisters Codex gives them
1 Troop Choices (Battle Sisters)
2 Elite Choices (Celestian, Repentia)
3 Fast Attack (Seraphim, Dominion)
3 Heavy (Exorcist, Penitent Engine, Retributor)
not enough time to finish, need to go to work
I apologize if it came out as insulting, I meant it more in a playful teasing kind of way. I often type like I talk and tone doesn't come out very well. Sorry about that.
Why is this important? As they stand right now, they have 16 different units. Pretty sure this is too many for a "mini-codex". And this is ignoring the likely possibility that an update would probably bring in entirely new units. So yeah, still not seeing how shoving them into a mini-codex makes sense.
Hmm, this reminds me a little of when people used to suggest folding the Sisters into the Inquisition.
adamsouza wrote: Penitent engines = They don't have a sister strapped into them, always thought of them as inquisition.
They have either Sisters or Priests in them. And they're an Ecclesiarchy thing, nothing to do with the Inquisition.
According to the Kübler-Ross model, my opinion about the Sisters' future with GW is currently at Stage 4, slowly shifting into Stage 5.
I see no reason (anymore) to expect much in the near or even mid-term future. If Games Workshop's design process is truly governed chiefly by personal interest of the developers, which I have read once and find plausible, then the grim truth is quite simply that the Sisters currently do not have an "advocate" in the studio. Many years ago, this used to be Andy Hoare, who also wrote most of their fluff, including their elusive WD articles. And ever since he's not working there anymore Sisters have been in a drought. Coincidence? I think not.
And looking at the other minis GW is pushing out, I also just don't buy those stories about "problems with sleeves".
Sisters shifting to FW is something I consider as unlikely as it would be unpromising, too. Nothing can be gained from moving a product from one studio that is unenthusiastic about it to another that has the same opinion. What Sisters would need would be another designer like Andy who actually likes them and pushes for their representation, but waiting for that day is like waiting to win the lottery.
Some might argue it would be about time for GW to simply cease physical support for them and relegate their status to background-only much like with Arbites or Custodes, and the bitter truth is that this probably would not change much, aside from their fans finally having clarity on the issue and the possibility of some clubs/tournament then banning previous SoB rules from their tables. However, I don't really see GW doing this for the simple reason that there are still people willing to spend a considerable amount of money on something that can be provided with very little effort. How much did it cost to produce the arguably lukewarm digital-only Sisters dex, for example, and how much did it sell for? I believe GW isn't convinced of the idea of Sisters as an army anymore, but as a company they recognise that there's still some cash to be made with minimum investment. That, and the continued pseudo-existence of SoB as the unloved stepchildren of 40k spares the company from the sort of backlash they received when squatting the, well, squats.
tl;dr: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Troike wrote:Mate, nah, Sisters are full-codex material. Always have been. Really, they have too many units to be a mini-dex.
Technically, that is easily changed. Past codices have added new units even where it wasn't necessary, future codices could remove them again. Hell, the very first rules for SoB had a single unit type (Battle Sisters) as a sort of "reinforcements"-type addition for Marine and Guard armies.
They only have three different types of non-SC minis (Sisters, Seraphim, Repentia), and it wouldn't take much brainstorming to convert Dominions, Retributors and Celestians into "upgrades" for individual minis, so that you wouldn't even need to change the fluff.
The only tricky thing about this idea is the range of "non-Sisters Sisters minis", which I believe is ironically just as large as the range of "real" Sisters by now.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Troike wrote:Just went through the Witch Hunters codex, didn't see it mentioned. It did, however, say that the helmet with the Fleur on it goes to "Sisters who have performed with exceptional courage and honour". So yeah, if it's not there then it must be from that FFG fluff that has Sisters in the Calixis Sector needing to earn their helmet.
I am pretty sure I read that somewhere though, and it was not FFG. I will check my collection.
I'm quite sure this really was just an idea by FFG. Very probably as a balancing mechanism to keep the player character's head vulnerable, even though the rest of the body is covered by power armour at Rank 1 already.
I still maintain that the Inquisitor's Handbook had a more intelligent solution, but I think you already know my opinion of the Blood of Martyrs supplement.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I thought they were like arcoflagellants: some heretic is strapped on them.
Yes, that's what I recall as well.
(and much like Arco-flagellants, they are property of the Ecclesiarchy directly, but sometimes "on loan" to the Sisterhood)
I'll believe plastic Sisters are coming when I not only have one in my hands, but have already assembled, primed, and painted them, and am using them on the table.
Ah, I recalled it slightly wrong. They aren't necessarily Priests or SoB (but many are). But they are more notable than "some heretic", which is what slates them for going into a Penitent Engine rather than becoming an Arco-flagellant. Here's exactly what the 6E codex says on the matter:
To be a pilot of a Penitent Engine is to have committed a terrible crime, one so heinous that punishment such as imprisonment, exile, arco-flagellation or execution is deemed too lenient. Many of the unfortunates sentenced to pilot a Penitent Engine were once members of the Ecclesiarchy – priests fallen from grace or Battle Sisters who have, through failure of duty or faith, caused the deaths of their fellows.
Lynata wrote: then the grim truth is quite simply that the Sisters currently do not have an "advocate" in the studio.
I dunno, I think that they've got quite a few supporters in-studio, for what it's worth. Cruddace has said tyhat they're one of his favourite armies, and Kelly has expressed interest in them on a few occasions. From Jes Goodwin, I get the impression that he does seem to care about them and would want to do something good with them. Some GW person (Kelly, IIRC?) also mentioned that there's three developers who have Sisters as their main army. So I think that they do have sufficient support from those within to be looked after, once an update is put into motion.
In my view, it's just a case of the sculptors finding sufficient time to put the work needed into updating the line. And this isn't even a necessity for a new SoB release anymore, what with those non-codex releases that they're doing these days.
Lynata wrote: future codices could remove them again. Hell, the very first rules for SoB had a single unit type (Battle Sisters) as a sort of "reinforcements"-type addition for Marine and Guard armies.
I doubt that this would happen. GW is all about expansion now, rather than trimming things down.
Lynata wrote: According to the Kübler-Ross model, my opinion about the Sisters' future with GW is currently at Stage 4, slowly shifting into Stage 5.
I am in phase 2. Damn you GW.
Melissia wrote: I'll believe plastic Sisters are coming when I not only have one in my hands, but have already assembled, primed, and painted them, and am using them on the table.
Buying models that you will not believe in because you have not yet assembled them will require quite a lot of faith. How fitting .
Can I interest you in buying three box of 10 plastic sisters for 100€? You will actually discover their existence as soon as you have assembled them, painted them, and used them on the table.
Currently there are 33 figures in the SoB range. --- that's more than in 4 other ranges , about the same / less than 10 more, in 4 other ranges . I've only been in the hobby about a year , but I suspect that isn't a recent development .
Considering that it's a hobby where you spend countless hours pouring over tank type variations and TO&E , and considering that it's not chainmail bikinis, and even the bulletpoint chest pieces are , often as not , obscured in the figures, and considering that the Fluer -De-lis and the Bob cut haircut are an obvious reference to Joan of Arc : A peasant teenager who could not write her own name , who never wanted to leave home, who hated being a soldier , was decidedly uncomfortable with notoriety, status , and power , but who none-the-less went out to fight , not for material riches that rot or rust away, or a life that can be miserable even for the rich, and where countless millions will, best case scenario, never live to see a better day , but for a faith that puts smiles on cripples , the lowest of the low , the damned and the outcast .......
Considering all of that , that there are 33 figures in the priciest line , and that that line has endured over a decade , says something altogether positive.
Yeah. That is what is awesome. The first time you realize that in that big, non-gendered armor, there is a girl (i.e. Metroid ), it is an oddity. The second time you realize that in that big, non gendered armor, there is a girl (i.e. Shadowsun ), it is an oddity. The tenth time it happens, it is a trope. By the hundredth time, you will not be surprised, because you will have stop to assume non-gendered armor contain males.
If pride did not tend to arrogance , these would be things to be proud of. If we are all not living in caves and starving , it is largely due to cooks, cleaners, diaper-changers , obedient ditch-diggers, and a large contingent of old maids and old bachelors. It is an aggressive , materialistic, elitist, and dare I say MASCULINE, ethos that tends to discount these, and tends to assume the world revolves around chiefs, bosses, stars, and warlords.
In any case, fashion and military fashion are more alike than not. Playing with dolls and playing with toy soldiers are more alike than not. Obsessing over catalogs of wallpaper designs and obsessing over catalogs of TO&E are more alike than not.
And that is already the case , ideological spin or semantics not withstanding.
If the problem is distinctions, elites, exceptions, differences , preferences , etc , then SM and SoB are BOTH certainly a problem , and a problem that going co-ed won't alter either. Because co-ed it is STILL about distinctions, elites, exceptions, differences , preferences , etc in these formations. But the alternative is already present :
http://victoriaminiatures.highwire.com/product/arcadian-rifles-squad-female-pre-order That's about as indistinct and unexceptional as it is ever going to get. Buy a male squad, mix them up together , and there you are. The girls can have a jolly time sharing the same flie-blown latrine with the guys.
Nothing to offend a genuine egalitarian.
Not to mention Tyranids . Who cares what sex a cockroach is ?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Or you like the “Obvious display of obscene wealth and bad taste in a very baroque fashion” theme.
when she puts on the helmet only the merest curve to the hips and structure of the knees and thighs would give you any hint of the sex.
I kinda , I sorta , I did , indicate that y'know ?
" Structure of the knees and thighs " ? I've only been drawing pictures of, and photographing , people since I was about 6 . So , yeah, I notice such things.
Yeah. That is what is awesome. The first time you realize that in that big, non-gendered armor, there is a girl (i.e. Metroid ), it is an oddity. The second time you realize that in that big, non gendered armor, there is a girl (i.e. Shadowsun ), it is an oddity. The tenth time it happens, it is a trope. By the hundredth time, you will not be surprised, because you will have stop to assume non-gendered armor contain males.
Apparently not , because :
I am sorry, I do not understand what you mean. I see no link between what you say after that, and the fact once you have seen big, covering armor containing females many time, you will stop assuming those armors contains male.
If pride did not tend to arrogance , these would be things to be proud of. If we are all not living in caves and starving , it is largely due to cooks, cleaners, diaper-changers , obedient ditch-diggers, and a large contingent of old maids and old bachelors. It is an aggressive , materialistic, elitist, and dare I say MASCULINE, ethos that tends to discount these, and tends to assume the world revolves around chiefs, bosses, stars, and warlords.
I am not implying those things are not important. I am subverting the usual gender roles that assign these roles to women by assigning them to the male marines.
Actually, it started with “chastity” because it seemed to me that this was very often mentioned for female religious warriors and about never mentioned for male religious warriors. For some reason, people tend to associate female virginity with “purity” and care about it much, much more than male virginity. I find it pretty disturbing. After that, I decided to add other traits that are somehow considered feminine role for no good reason, and tackled to anything or anyone feminine (see the Sisters of Cleaning from 1d4chan, or the infamous “Make me a sandwich”).
I like them in part because they are wrong. Because they are “well-intentioned extremists” that will do horrible things because they are think those things are right. But of course, that only works because it is fiction, I would hate them if they were real. The bad taste usually do not come from the sisters themselves, but from the rest of ecclesiarchy, imho, though.
As for the “sisters of bitter”, it is a play on word, because I am very bitter at GW for no update.
I kinda , I sorta , I did , indicate that y'know ?
" Structure of the knees and thighs " ? I've only been drawing pictures of, and photographing , people since I was about 6 . So , yeah, I notice such things.
I haven't been at it quite as long, but otherwise: me too, as it happens. What you apparently haven't noticed is that this topic isn't about 11-12yo girls.
There's a debate threatening to boil over, about masculine vs. feminine vs. neutral aspects in a whole bunch of stuff that goes beyond the purview of this topic, and that I don't have the stamina to wade into right now; especially as it's already turning into a heated semantics-arguing hofflenosh. I'm gonna leave three points:
With specific regard to bespoke, fitted storm trooper armour: I'm gonna guess it'll be more noticeable if the wearer is a full-grown woman. Maybe not face-slappingly obvious, but 'more so'.
With regard to pride in cooking, cleaning and taking care of the kids: I'll take a leaf out of the RHA tumblr's book and say that that's fine. It's that these are traditionally the only, or expected, option and role for most women. It needs mixing up, and regularly.
With regard to Sisters not having enough units for a codex: personally I think I'd rather have a clean, rather minimal list compared to some of the clutter that's come about in others, mostly due to GW shoving another new toy in there in an effort to make you buy it.
A bit more armour, I think, and that's it. Sisters get rhinos in vanilla, not-razorback and not-whirlwind flavours. Any reason they shouldn't get not-predators, not-leman-russes, or some other kind of MBT?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: They are? Are those army chosen from atmy send by the readers, or are they from the studio?
Stuido Painter Chris Bilewicz - Issue 22 of WD had the "War Diary" feature which talked about who was doing what - its intemitent but each of the waxed lyrical about thier chosen army
Just wanted to give a huge big apology to everyone over my last post concerning the Sisters of Battle.
I am sorry for posting what I posted.
The info I got was so wrong it needed an apology, the current info I got is that GW has no plans to send SoB over to FW, the new info I have is that GW will release SoB when the time is right.
At this point in time I have to be honest that I have no new info on the said release of a new SoB.
Again my humble apologies over disinformation from my last post.
Troike wrote: Many of the unfortunates sentenced to pilot a Penitent Engine were once members of the Ecclesiarchy – priests fallen from grace or Battle Sisters who have, through failure of duty or faith
...I had forgotten about this, actually. Seems SoB faith really is not infallible, eh?
Achaylus72 wrote: Just wanted to give a huge big apology to everyone over my last post concerning the Sisters of Battle.
I am sorry for posting what I posted.
The info I got was so wrong it needed an apology, the current info I got is that GW has no plans to send SoB over to FW, the new info I have is that GW will release SoB when the time is right.
At this point in time I have to be honest that I have no new info on the said release of a new SoB.
Again my humble apologies over disinformation from my last post.
KesaAnna wrote: There are, as far as I know, only two reasons basically to play SoB :
-- You like girls
-- You like the religious theme.
Or you like the “Obvious display of obscene wealth and bad taste in a very baroque fashion” theme.
I'd say that the appeal of the Sisters could be simplified and split up like this:
- Their fluff
- Their aesthetics
- They're a mostly female army
- They're something different to/are more obscure than the other armies
From what I've seen, those are the main reasons that people might have in starting an SoB army.
Personally, I wanted Marines that were different, and Sisters of battle different was better than Dark Angels / Blood Angels different. Never liked the wolves either, so voilà.
That list pretty much covers it though. Unplayed and unknown. Many might go for the female/Aesthetics, but i think that's usually overshadowed.
Achaylus72 wrote: Just wanted to give a huge big apology to everyone over my last post concerning the Sisters of Battle.
I am sorry for posting what I posted.
The info I got was so wrong it needed an apology, the current info I got is that GW has no plans to send SoB over to FW, the new info I have is that GW will release SoB when the time is right.
At this point in time I have to be honest that I have no new info on the said release of a new SoB.
Again my humble apologies over disinformation from my last post.
Interesting. I was there too and I did not get the impression that something SOB related was coming. Jes threw in an off-hand comment to the effect that they could probably use the new release schedule to fit something in, speculating that a single box could cover most of the options for SOB. I did not get the sense that SOB were planned. I did get the impression that they were in their thoughts and would definitely return at some point but most likely in a limited way with a couple of releases. To be fair I would imagine that a well-designed box like the scions or sternguard could cover most of the units in one go. What Jes did say unequivocally and openly was that SOB are part of the game and won't go away. He distinguished them from Squats who were written out at an early stage of the game whereas SOB are in and will stay. I got the feeling it was something they had on the back-burner and would do something with but probably a small release like the Inquisition or militarum tempestus releases.
Achaylus72 wrote: Just wanted to give a huge big apology to everyone over my last post concerning the Sisters of Battle.
I am sorry for posting what I posted.
The info I got was so wrong it needed an apology, the current info I got is that GW has no plans to send SoB over to FW, the new info I have is that GW will release SoB when the time is right.
At this point in time I have to be honest that I have no new info on the said release of a new SoB.
Again my humble apologies over disinformation from my last post.
Not to be mean, but no one is surprised by this.
Yeah seriously, there's no surprise whatsoever here.
I equate "the time is right" in the same way Cthullu cultists do, by ages. It is difficult not to by cynical, but it is disheartening that plastic Sisters have joined, or even surfaced, the plastic Thunder Hawk on the believability of rumors.
Uncle Fester wrote: I equate "the time is right" in the same way Cthullu cultists do, by ages. It is difficult not to by cynical, but it is disheartening that plastic Sisters have joined, or even surfaced, the plastic Thunder Hawk on the believability of rumors.
Uncle Fester wrote: I equate "the time is right" in the same way Cthullu cultists do, by ages. It is difficult not to by cynical, but it is disheartening that plastic Sisters have joined, or even surfaced, the plastic Thunder Hawk on the believability of rumors.
Really, it's been this way for years.
I actually have a $ bet with my local blackshirt store manager. He bet me that Plastic Sister's would be out before 2015...the fool
Jes did imply that they have at least considered SOB and he said he would only approach a full army update if he could give it the attention the DE received in 5th ed, i.e. a whole line of new minis, new units, vehicles, etc. He kind of suggested I felt that they had toyed with SOB but could not develop enough ideas and enthusiasm to do a full on army. That was just my take on what he said. All he did say for certain was that they were not going away and would at some point receive some kind of attention.
Fact is, I would have, for example, liked a unit of Celestines for an HQ squad completely in helmets.
I like the SoB a lot, so frankly change WORRIES, ANNOYS, SCARES me. But it's a preference , not Holy writ. So, again, my apologies, for what thats worth.
Oh, could you elaborate on this? I'm curious, what do you think makes the Sisters less distasteful than the rest of the Ecclesiarchy?
Well , You didn't ask me, and my reply won't exactly conform to your question.
But there doesn't seem to be another , " Let's talk about SoB " Thread, and why make another thread anyway when this one is doing fine ?
There is another thread regarding the least douchbaggy faction........
To me the Ecclesiarchy , and its militant arm the SoB , are the least grim, least depressing , least dismal faction in the 40k universe . Why ? I alluded to it in passing. Of course there is lots of ambiguity and vagueness in what is in print , but what I can gleen from it, or read into it, is their focus is not on material riches that rot or rust away. Nor on , " The Greater Good " . The Greater Good ? That's a hoot . Like I alluded to , it's a life where even the rich and the beautiful and the beloved can be miserable. And even if, hypothetically your actions might somehow eventually bring about Utopia, its a utopia countless millions will never live to see.
I think the Emperor is a false God, and the creed would be a great deal better with the suggestion that abhumans, psykers, and xenos might wind up at the foot of the golden throne too.
But as it stands , its the only game in town. Looking to any other faction ; it's killing folks for what neither of you can hold on to.
It isn't the only faction committing atrocities and where those are concerned , I recall how a relatively fat and happy and free people in the UK reacted to the IRA terror campaign of the 70's , or how my own country reacted to 9-11 , and all of that is downright trivial in comparison to intelligent 6 foot tall cockroaches actively trying to bump you off. How might one react to that ? Not well i'm afraid.
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I'd like to see an enclosed Taurus Vernator , no heavy guns , that merely carries 6 battle sisters like in Hammer and Anvil. Not exactly an ambitious addition to the line. And yeah they already have the rhino and the repressor , but no simple wheeled vehicles is annoying.
Isengard wrote: Interesting. I was there too and I did not get the impression that something SOB related was coming. Jes threw in an off-hand comment to the effect that they could probably use the new release schedule to fit something in, speculating that a single box could cover most of the options for SOB. I did not get the sense that SOB were planned. I did get the impression that they were in their thoughts and would definitely return at some point but most likely in a limited way with a couple of releases. To be fair I would imagine that a well-designed box like the scions or sternguard could cover most of the units in one go. What Jes did say unequivocally and openly was that SOB are part of the game and won't go away. He distinguished them from Squats who were written out at an early stage of the game whereas SOB are in and will stay. I got the feeling it was something they had on the back-burner and would do something with but probably a small release like the Inquisition or militarum tempestus releases. [...] Jes did imply that they have at least considered SOB and he said he would only approach a full army update if he could give it the attention the DE received in 5th ed, i.e. a whole line of new minis, new units, vehicles, etc. He kind of suggested I felt that they had toyed with SOB but could not develop enough ideas and enthusiasm to do a full on army. That was just my take on what he said. All he did say for certain was that they were not going away and would at some point receive some kind of attention.
Thanks for the report. Nice to see Goodwin saying that the SoB won't go away, if nothing else. Though I kinda had that impression already.
Reading this along with the others, one can get a pretty clear idea of what happened, even if the various authors seem to have slightly different perceptions of what was said.
KesaAnna wrote: To me the Ecclesiarchy , and its militant arm the SoB , are the least grim, least depressing , least dismal faction in the 40k universe . Why ? I alluded to it in passing. Of course there is lots of ambiguity and vagueness in what is in print , but what I can gleen from it, or read into it, is their focus is not on material riches that rot or rust away. Nor on , " The Greater Good " . The Greater Good ? That's a hoot . Like I alluded to , it's a life where even the rich and the beautiful and the beloved can be miserable. And even if, hypothetically your actions might somehow eventually bring about Utopia, its a utopia countless millions will never live to see. [...] But as it stands , its the only game in town. Looking to any other faction ; it's killing folks for what neither of you can hold on to.
An interesting take on it. So you're saying that their purity of commitment to a sort of "faithful utopia" elevates them above other factions? I can see what you're getting at, though I don't see it that way. I think that they're very grimdark. They might be very sincere about their goal, but they think nothing of doing awful things to achieve it. These are the people who brutally supress any and all things that don't fit in with their religion, and they'll eagerly apply methods such as torture, conversion into a Flagellant or burning people alive.
I do think that their sheer faith definetely lends them an element of heroism as a faction, though they are still some very nasty people to be on the wrong side of.
Troike wrote: An interesting take on it. So you're saying that their purity of commitment to a sort of "faithful utopia" elevates them above other factions? I can see what you're getting at, though I don't see it that way. I think that they're very grimdark. They might be very sincere about their goal, but they think nothing of doing awful things to achieve it. These are the people who brutally supress any and all things that don't fit in with their religion, and they'll eagerly apply methods such as torture, conversion into a Flagellant or burning people alive.
I do think that their sheer faith definetely lends them an element of heroism as a faction, though they are still some very nasty people to be on the wrong side of.
I wouldn't say they think nothing of it, but given the alternative, it is something they must do. To be fair Sisters hold themselves to the highest of standards and expect the same from others, but they are still human and make mistakes.
Troike wrote:Reading this along with the others, one can get a pretty clear idea of what happened, even if the various authors seem to have slightly different perceptions of what was said.
Yep, the truth is likely to be found somewhere in the middle.
"Lack of enthusiasm" is the most likely explanation to me. I mean, the studio can't even be bothered to include Sisters in the mission and supplementary books - not even the ones publicly advertised as offering "something for every army".
Troike wrote:An interesting take on it. So you're saying that their purity of commitment to a sort of "faithful utopia" elevates them above other factions? I can see what you're getting at, though I don't see it that way. I think that they're very grimdark. They might be very sincere about their goal, but they think nothing of doing awful things to achieve it. These are the people who brutally supress any and all things that don't fit in with their religion, and they'll eagerly apply methods such as torture, conversion into a Flagellant or burning people alive.
I do think that their sheer faith definetely lends them an element of heroism as a faction, though they are still some very nasty people to be on the wrong side of.
I kind of think both of you are having a point. It could be argued that the Ecclesiarchy does, in addition to all the "bad" stuff, also a lot of good things, from providing spiritual and moral support to physical aid such as feeding the poor or treating the sick. Still, I'm gravitating more towards Troike's stance as the few good things generally seem to be eclipsed by the terrible effects of a culture of oppression, exploitation and outright barbarism. Undoubtedly, there are many, many members within the ranks of the Ecclesiarchy that genuinely want to help people, but at the same time I feel that, overall, it is as rotten as the rest of the Imperium.
If I had to pick a spot for myself, I'd rather live with the Tau.
But what makes the Ecclesiarchy fascinating is that, aside from the monumental design, it also serves as a pivotal pillar of stability - plus, the genuine heroism that you, Troike, mentioned. A robed cleric with a sawn-off shotgun confronting a bunch of CSMs or Eldar is a whole lot braver than the same-ole-same-ole stories of "epic" Marine combat. Even though the cleric would, in most cases, be rather unlikely to survive the encounter.
Manchu expressed it in a manner that I in my semi-delirious and flu-ridden state would not be able to express, so I'm just gonna quote him:
Manchu wrote: I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.
andrewm9 wrote: I wouldn't say they think nothing of it, but given the alternative, it is something they must do.
Oh, of course they place weight on doing their duty. I meant as in they don't have any qualms about the killing. To the Sisters (and probably a lot of the Ecclesiarchy in general), somebody who has been deisgned as "undesirable" simply needs to die/be forcibly converted. You're either with them or against them, so to speak.
Lynata wrote: "Lack of enthusiasm" is the most likely explanation to me.
The impression I'm getting is that they would be plenty enthusiastic about updating the Sisters, were they to set aside the time to needed time to do so.
Lynata wrote: it also serves as a pivotal pillar of stability
True. Considering that Chaos is a thing, the Ecclesiarchy is very much a necessity. So they can be considered good in that they're actively opposing much worse forces, at least. And they do play a very important role in bringing new human worlds into the Imperial fold. They're certainly not without redeeming qualities, if we're looking at them in terms of morality.
Uncle Fester wrote: I equate "the time is right" in the same way Cthullu cultists do, by ages. It is difficult not to by cynical, but it is disheartening that plastic Sisters have joined, or even surfaced, the plastic Thunder Hawk on the believability of rumors.
Troike wrote: Oh, could you elaborate on this? I'm curious, what do you think makes the Sisters less distasteful than the rest of the Ecclesiarchy?
Well, I do not think the Sisters get to managed the treasury of the church. I do not expect them to deal with those kind of, well, worldy matters . So I imagine they just take what they get from the Ecclesiarchy rather than design it themselves. I may be completely wrong though.
KesaAnna wrote: Fact is, I would have, for example, liked a unit of Celestines for an HQ squad completely in helmets.
Troike wrote:The impression I'm getting is that they would be plenty enthusiastic about updating the Sisters, were they to set aside the time to needed time to do so.
You mean if they'd be less enthusiastic about any other army out there?
Including their new Imperial Knights, who also just got a nifty background book of the sort SoB players can only dream about.
But why make such stuff for existing factions if you can funnel your creative energy into something new you apparently care more about?
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Celestians. Celestine is the special character .
KesaAnna wrote: Fact is, I would have, for example, liked a unit of Celestines for an HQ squad completely in helmets.
Celestians. Celestine is the special character .
Huh , I never actually noticed the two names were fundamentally different, even though you HEAR CelesTIANS often enough in the audio play " Red and Black" . In any case, because of the close similarity, I've always preferred calling the later " The Living Saint " even though it's more words to type out.
Unfortunately, with GW being in danger of going into the death spiral (if it is not already in it), either the Sisters will be ignored in favor of "that one product that will save us from bankruptcy", or the Sisters will get a rushed, low-quality release, squished among other desperate attempts to put GW back in black.
Manchu wrote: I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.
Pure. Badass.
I'm going to steal that if it's okay, love the quote
As for the rumors and releases:
It seem that GW will continue doing these "a la StormClaw" boxes, with a Codex release on each side, so Orks => Stormclaw => Wolves; next rumored is D.Eldar => Box => Blood Angels. I could see a CSM => Box => Sisters of battle set-up, where they only need 3 sprues in plastic to get the box.
And then a typical "sort the rest of your army yourself"...
I doubt that this would happen. GW is all about expansion now, rather than trimming things down.
Which is why the IG codex still includes the Griffon and Colossus? Oh wait, it doesn't, mainly because they couldn't be bothered to issue models for either one of them. So yeah, units do get 'disappeared' on occasion, or unit options go away.
Lynata wrote: You mean if they'd be less enthusiastic about any other army out there?
Perhaps. It may also be the case that they really don't have the time that they want to put into the Sisters, just now.
don_mondo wrote: Which is why the IG codex still includes the Griffon and Colossus? Oh wait, it doesn't, mainly because they couldn't be bothered to issue models for either one of them. So yeah, units do get 'disappeared' on occasion, or unit options go away.
That's due to their "no model. no rules" policy. Otherwise, they're unlikely to vanish units that still have models.
...Though, having said that, some SoB models have gone missing, fairly recently. Don't think it's been enough so that a whole unit is without models, though.
don_mondo wrote: Which is why the IG codex still includes the Griffon and Colossus? Oh wait, it doesn't, mainly because they couldn't be bothered to issue models for either one of them. So yeah, units do get 'disappeared' on occasion, or unit options go away.
That's due to their "no model. no rules" policy. Otherwise, they're unlikely to vanish units that still have models.
...Though, having said that, some SoB models have gone missing, fairly recently. Don't think it's been enough so that a whole unit is without models, though.
If they re-boot the whole range, they might just ditch some of the models that can’t be redone in time. While any unit that can be made with your basic sister should be safe, the odd ones like the repentia might be at risk. If GW is truly pushing the all plastic, all the time mantra, just because you have it in metal does not mean it’s safe.
Nevelon wrote: If they re-boot the whole range, they might just ditch some of the models that can’t be redone in time. While any unit that can be made with your basic sister should be safe, the odd ones like the repentia might be at risk. If GW is truly pushing the all plastic, all the time mantra, just because you have it in metal does not mean it’s safe.
Eh, I don't see that happening. There's still other metal models hanging around.
Really, there's no need to go around arbitrarily removing products for no real reason. Anything that stays metal should be allright until it eventually goes OOP
Nevelon wrote: If they re-boot the whole range, they might just ditch some of the models that can’t be redone in time. While any unit that can be made with your basic sister should be safe, the odd ones like the repentia might be at risk. If GW is truly pushing the all plastic, all the time mantra, just because you have it in metal does not mean it’s safe.
Eh, I don't see that happening. There's still other metal models hanging around.
Really, there's no need to go around arbitrarily removing products for no real reason. Anything that stays metal should be allright until it eventually goes OOP
The new codex would be cut back but they'll have a day one DLC for Repentia.
Troike wrote:Perhaps. It may also be the case that they really don't have the time that they want to put into the Sisters, just now.
Yeah, but that "just now" has been for over a decade.
I'm going with Occham's Razor here. GW has undoubtedly had enough time to invest in a scope of other projects, from an entire revamp of the Dark Eldar army to bringing out a completely new list with their Imperial Knights, not to mention a score of new supplements.
No Andy = No Sisters. That was the prevailing opinion on the yahoo list where Mr. Hoare himself used to post, too.
That's not to say that this situation may not change some day, but imho this would require a new designer who actually really likes Sisters. Not those PR "yeah I have a Sisters army too" statements that were so thin, they didn't even bother to paint it when it was shown on the website, not to mention their unit setups violated their own codex rules. Good thing GW has pulled that embarrassing article again. I believe GW is a business where the individual designers have a lot of influence on what gets created next, and whilst this is generally a cool thing, the obvious disadvantage of this approach is what happened with the SoB once their only real fan in the company had left.
At least they've not forgotten about them entirely, as evidenced in a couple short mentions here and there in some fluff. Still it's rather "interesting" that they keep missing to include them in supplements that are supposedly meant for "all" armies. It's almost as if one side of the studio has no clue what the other does, or perhaps this is the result of compartmentalised development, and whoever was responsible for those books is not the same guy as the one who repeatedly manages to smuggle in one or two sentences about Sisters into other stuff.
MWHistorian wrote:The new codex would be cut back but they'll have a day one DLC for Repentia.
Ha! ... I can actually see that happening. :(
That being said, it would be awesome if this hypothetical supplement would offer the pre-3E "Proto-Repentia" from Andy Hoare's CJ article as an alternate choice / independent character. I've actually come to find her more interesting than the normal squad, over the past years.
MWHistorian wrote: The new codex would be cut back but they'll have a day one DLC for Repentia.
Again, not really seeing why they'd cut anything back, unless its model went OOP and they were forced to remove it due to their "no model, no rules" policy.
More likely, a day one DLC for the Sisters might be a special character of some kind?
Lynata wrote: GW has undoubtedly had enough time to invest in a scope of other projects, from an entire revamp of the Dark Eldar army to bringing out a completely new list with their Imperial Knights, not to mention a score of new supplements.
Though, keep in mind, the question of updating the SoB was apparently further complicated by modelling issues, in the past (though recent quotes suggest that this may no longer be a problem?). And I'm unsure if GW has done such a huge modelling re-work since the DE, and the Sisters would likely need an similar amount of work.
Lynata wrote: No Andy = No Sisters. That was the prevailing opinion on the yahoo list where Mr. Hoare himself used to post, too.
I'm not so sure about this. From the information we have, it seems that the hold-up is due to the sculptors not yet working on a model update. I'm doubtful that an advocate could have a major impact on this. I mean, what could they do? Continually nag Jes Goodwin about updating the Sisters? I think, ultimately, him and his team are the ones who need to put in the work. There's already plenty of designers who like and would be willing to do rules for the Sisters, so they're fine on that end.
Lynata wrote: Still it's rather "interesting" that they keep missing to include them in supplements that are supposedly meant for "all" armies.
As I said before, my theory on this is that the Sisters are "on the backburner" for the moment, pending an update, so they receive limited rules focus. They may be thinking "outdated models = less reason to promote".
...But, I'm not happy about it, mind you. I'm still quite annoyed about it all the same. It would be very easy to give the SoB some attention, in some instances of this. Yet it can sometimes feel like one has been handicapped just for liking this one particular army. Hopefully this'll change, someday.
MWHistorian wrote: The new codex would be cut back but they'll have a day one DLC for Repentia.
Now, you are out of date. Now, it is going to be in a White Dwarf weekly article. Hardly better, that is true. But it does not matter: GW's strategy will have changed at least a few dozen time before the codex will be release. Even assuming a (totally not realistic) release of Sisters in less than a year, actually .
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What news? The 
ing us about "technical issues".
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