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 Crevab wrote:
If the claim of "hair is hard" wasn't bunk before, it's definitely been solved by now

The problems of GW's plastic make hair a fundamental problem has not been solved. The innovations in the field of PVC could help them, but I don't think GW is going to go to PVC anytime soon (and each plastic has it's own problems at the end of the day).


GW uses polystyrene- which is a very hard plastic that is cast in a metal mold. The problem is that neither the mold nor the plastic can bend when you take it out of the mold.

That means that the mold lines need to have zero texture to them (or you won't be able to remove the minis from the mold). This shows up a lot on GW's minis that are cast in the fewest possible pieces (take a good look at the mold lines on the 3rd ed Space Hulk set- the details absolutely disappear along the mold lines).

With metal or resin miniatures, a little texture is not a problem, because the molds are rubber. With softer plastics, the same is true (Privateer Press' Warpwolf comes in relatively few pieces and has no loss of hair texture along the mold lines, and the same is true of Reaper's bones line).


The primary way that GW has gotten around this problem for years has been to re-design the minis and their style to minimize the loss of detail. Marine armor and posing is designed to have smooth edges around every mold line (and we do still see a little loss of detail in some of the knee pads). When the line was mostly metal, Space Marines didn't use to be bald. Older space marine scout models had texture to their hair (something that they got rid of when they went to plastic and sold it as a style choice). Also, often what determines if a piece is separate is where the mold lines end up sitting.

Wyrd has similar problems with their plastic (they're using ABT, but it's similar to Polystyrene in this case). Their work around has been to make the minis in even more pieces- they have an absolutely crazy number of parts to some of their characters. That can work pretty well, but it is clear that Wyrd isn't going after novices in the miniatures market.

If you want to apply that to the sisters of battle, you can redesign their hair so that it pyramids out towards the mold lines (this is done with top knots all the time. I suspect that's what they've been trying to do and failing at.

Other options, you could lose the texture on their hair around the mold lines (and end up with uneven texture). You could give them Scout Hair with no texture at all and try to sell it as a stylistic choice. Or you could use Wyrd's style and make their head s into three separate pieces and have the players go through a little more work to get them together.



Personally, I like that last option- mostly because I'd put together a lot of Wyrd's minis. They're a little trickier to assemble, but they come out looking great.

I think that sisters sell poorly is because GW doesn't support the army. It's circular logic. A Direct order army of only metal models with a small digital codex that hasn't received a model update in 11 years isn't going to sell well.

The best case study I can think of is DE. They sold poorly. GW stopped supporting them. They sold even more poorly. GW relaunches the line and gives it proper support and now DE actually sells and is stocked in GW stores with a real codex.

I wonder how well sisters would sell if they were a full sized army with plastic kits sold in store with a proper hardback codex.

@ MrFlutterPie

Wise and true words

 odinsgrandson wrote:

 Crevab wrote:
If the claim of "hair is hard" wasn't bunk before, it's definitely been solved by now

The problems of GW's plastic make hair a fundamental problem that won't be solved over time, no matter the innovations that come.

GW uses polystyrene- which is a very hard plastic that is cast in a metal mold. The problem is that neither the mold nor the plastic can bend when you take it out of the mold.

That means that the mold lines need to have zero texture to them (or you won't be able to remove the minis from the mold). This shows up a lot on GW's minis that are cast in the fewest possible pieces (take a good look at the mold lines on the 3rd ed Space Hulk set- the details absolutely disappear along the mold lines).

With metal or resin miniatures, a little texture is not a problem, because the molds are rubber. With softer plastics, the same is true (Privateer Press' Warpwolf comes in relatively few pieces and has no loss of hair texture along the mold lines, and the same is true of Reaper's bones line).


The primary way that GW has gotten around this problem for years has been to re-design the minis and their style to minimize the loss of detail. Marine armor and posing is designed to have smooth edges around every mold line (and we do still see a little loss of detail in some of the knee pads). When the line was mostly metal, Space Marines didn't use to be bald so often. Older space marine scout models had texture to their hair (something that they got rid of when they went to plastic and sold it as a style choice). Also, often what determines if a piece is separate is where the mold lines end up sitting.

Wyrd has similar problems with their plastic (they're using ABT, but it's similar to Polystyrene in this case). Their work around has been to make the minis in even more pieces- they have an absolutely crazy number of parts to some of their characters. That can work pretty well, but it is clear that Wyrd isn't going after novices in the miniatures market.

If you want to apply that to the sisters of battle, you can redesign their hair so that it pyramids out towards the mold lines (this is done with top knots all the time. I suspect that's what they've been trying to do and failing at.

Other options, you could lose the texture on their hair around the mold lines (and end up with uneven texture). You could give them Scout Hair with no texture at all and try to sell it as a stylistic choice. Or you could use Wyrd's style and make their head s into three separate pieces and have the players go through a little more work to get them together.



Personally, I like that last option- mostly because I'd put together a lot of Wyrd's minis. They're a little trickier to assemble, but they come out looking great.

Thanks for explanation, that does at least make the delay reasons plausible.

@ Odinsgranson: That is exactly the point I think Jes was getting at and if you look at the new dark Elf models GW produced they seem to be going in the direction you suggest. The head are in two pieces which allows them more dynamism in the hair.

It's also the cloth aspect of their attire. Guard and Marines don't have large sleeves which the metal Sisters do. This also is an issue with poseability. Not really a problem for bolters and other two handed weapons as the arms don't need to be too dynamic but for close combat or single handed weapons it does limit the amount of poses you can achieve.

Personally I think a redisign with different sleeves would work, but I guess with all the existing artwork they want to keep them as consistent as possible.

@MrFlutterpie: You're absolutely right, Dark Eldar is a perfect example. However that almost didn't happen at all, it was only because Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin hounded the higher ups until they gave in that it did as GW saw it as too much of a gamble.

The beauty of facations and data slates though is they could do one box of SoBs with a data slate that can fit into the Imperial faction and see if it sells, unlike the Dark Eldar where they did a whole army and codex.

I like the page boy hairdo but it could just be changed to a helmet of the same shape, which would give the SoB a distinctive uniform look.

I wouldn't mind to have only one model (sergeant) with no helmet and the rest of the girls with helmets if it meant to have them sooner.

I also like the SoB helmet a lot more than the helmet-less sisters.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Or they don't see it as having a strong immediate return on the investment. It seems like they're looking at this year as a sort of damage control, and trying to get the low hanging fruit.

I dunno... Bretonians are heavily rumoured to be getting a model update soon, and they're arguably an even riskier prosepct than the SoB, being that they're a similarly undersupported faction but in a less popular game. Also, the SoB digital codex did apparently sell pretty well, so I don't know that they're an entirely risky prospect.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
He was just joking: the most powerful Sister ever has no bob cut whatsoever.

Yeah, Celestine has managed to tap into the power of the pixie cut.

 ashikenshin wrote:
I also like the SoB helmet a lot more than the helmet-less sisters.

It is a pretty great helmet, and too damn scarce in the current range.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
If you want to apply that to the sisters of battle, you can redesign their hair so that it pyramids out towards the mold lines (this is done with top knots all the time. I suspect that's what they've been trying to do and failing at.

Other options, you could lose the texture on their hair around the mold lines (and end up with uneven texture). You could give them Scout Hair with no texture at all and try to sell it as a stylistic choice. Or you could use Wyrd's style and make their head s into three separate pieces and have the players go through a little more work to get them together.



Personally, I like that last option- mostly because I'd put together a lot of Wyrd's minis. They're a little trickier to assemble, but they come out looking great.

Or more awesome sabbat-pattern helmets.

I have always hated the hair argument.

Have none of you bought the Exorcist / Immolator kit?
That is a head with hair right there... Plastic and mold lines all on it. If it means they have to equip them all with hairbands / microphones, i don't see any issue =P

 BlackTalos wrote:
I have always hated the hair argument.

Have none of you bought the Exorcist / Immolator kit?
That is a head with hair right there... Plastic and mold lines all on it. If it means they have to equip them all with hairbands / microphones, i don't see any issue =P

Or they could just do the hair and the head/face as separate pieces, like they did with the Witch Elves, or on the new Commissar's massive hat.

Lets be honest here, there are any number of solutions to the "problems" with plastic Sisters; multiple parts, slide-core tooling, even an update of their look to minimise or remove the sleeves. If GW haven't found a solution it's because they've not tried very hard or they're not interested in investing the necessary capital, which is fine, they're a business that operates in a certain way and if they want to ignore the plain facts in front of their faces evidenced by the Dark Eldar revamp, that's their choice, but they should have the stones to just say so rather than bull ing us about "technical issues".

 BlackTalos wrote:
I have always hated the hair argument.

Have none of you bought the Exorcist / Immolator kit?
That is a head with hair right there... Plastic and mold lines all on it. If it means they have to equip them all with hairbands / microphones, i don't see any issue =P

Its not really an argument, it was part of the stated reason by Jes Goodwin. I'm not sure there is any reason for the lead designer to lie about such things.

The example you give is of a fairly static vehicle commander.

A squad kit would have a number of dynamic poses, some poses presumably favouring the left of the body others to the right. A dynamic pose will need a heads whose hair will also denote that movement or it will look off. Balancing the need for dynamism with the need to have multipose options would seem like a tall order without including dozens of different heads. Certainly there seems to be a technical challenge to overcome.

And the immo head with hair is not awesome. I've used it, but it is pretty lackluster.

That head was also part of a kit that was released over a decade ago. The things GW can do with plastic now compared to then are practically magic.

Gaz Taylor wrote:Too be honest, I did enjoy it as it's nice seeing that the guys who make GW games and models are really enthusiastic about them.

I found this video online of Jervis being enthusiastic.

Elemental wrote:Raging Heroes has something like that in the pipeline, and there's been some nice-looking concept art for the "Sisters of Eternal Mercy" floating around.

Oh grief. Then expect battle nuns decked out like Oxayotl's sig.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:He was just joking: the most powerful Sister ever has no bob cut whatsoever.

Yes she does.

 notprop wrote:
I'm not sure there is any reason for the lead designer to lie about such things.

Depends how far the lead designer is under the lowliest bean-counter.

 Vermis wrote:

Elemental wrote:Raging Heroes has something like that in the pipeline, and there's been some nice-looking concept art for the "Sisters of Eternal Mercy" floating around.

Oh grief. Then expect battle nuns decked out like Oxayotl's sig.

Did you mean my avatar? It is an official artwork from Games Workshop!

 Vermis wrote:
Yes she does.

Ephrael versus Celestine? Tricky question.

I think he meant your old Avatar, the one you even had flashing red and green at Xmas time.

The repentia? Actual miniatures like that would be awesome. And very disturbing. But awesome.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
Given a lot of the new kits, I don't know that I want to see plastic sisters

Preach it brother. You just know they would be awful. Covered in rubbish and looking like a Christmas tree. The whole space nun / female priest is brilliant but nuns and priest should shun ornamentation in their garb but you just know GW couldn't resist covering them in crap.

Here's for robed up, plain, mean looking ladies!

Lamb doesn't seem to have any issues making female heads that look right.

And GW has visors/helmets for sisters I think pretty good too.

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Lamb doesn't seem to have any issues making female heads that look right.

Which are resin and not plastic so unfortunately not really relevant.

Agreed they do look fine though.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Lets be honest here, there are any number of solutions to the "problems" with plastic Sisters; multiple parts, slide-core tooling, even an update of their look to minimise or remove the sleeves. If GW haven't found a solution it's because they've not tried very hard or they're not interested in investing the necessary capita

The impression I get is that Jes Goodwin is just very insistent on doing it in what he feels is "the right way", and the technical issues are or were a barrier to that. Maybe he could have found a way around that sooner, but this just seems to be how he's approaching it.

Knockagh wrote:
but nuns and priest should shun ornamentation

Here's for robed up, plain, mean looking ladies!

What? The SoB are all about having flashy ornamentation. Their whole aesthetic is about reflecting their over-the-top nature. The point of it is that it shows off their extreme loyalty to the church, and is to a lesser extent the Ecclesiarchy flaunting its wealth/power through its soldiers. In any case, they're not really meant to be plain.

 Brother SRM wrote:
That head was also part of a kit that was released over a decade ago. The things GW can do with plastic now compared to then are practically magic.

Yes indeed!

And GW's moulding technology is a good 10 to 15 years behind the current level of mass market Gundam models for pre-teen Japanese boys.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Did you mean my avatar? It is an official artwork from Games Workshop!

And here i thought it was Claire from Faust

I don't know gak about about how molds work- I'm not even a hobbyist- I play the game online.

But I find it rather implausible that a problem with hair is what's holding GW back from making Sisters when this has existed for... almost 5 years?

This may or may not have been covered in this thread already.

Lileth isn't plastic, the rules on what is and isn't possible are different for resin/metal.

I had no idea. That explains it, I guess.

so GW cant do woman hair in plastic. !!!
I guess this http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Dark-Elves-Witch-Elves

this http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Sisters-of-Avelorn

and this http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Dark-Elf-Sorceress


are made out of cotton candy

Here is what I know of the tragic tale of Sisters of Battle and in all of it's gory detail.

August 2010 Citadel Miniatures sculptors got the go ahead to produce an all new Sisters of Battle army to be brought out in three ways for selected units 1, Metal kits, 2 Metal/Plastic kits, and 3 Multi Plastic kits.

Also Games Workshop games developers were produce the new Codex: Sister of Battle.

Then in early 2011 the decision to drop metal meant that the new Sisters range would drop metal and introduce Citadel Finecast as per unit make-up, so no real change.

After some time, Sisters got a release date August 2012, this however meant that Sisters would be the last soft cover codex released prior to the release of Dark Vengeance and the following Hard Cover Codexes.

A decision was made to hold back the Sisters Codex to early 2013 and bring it out as a hard cover codex, the release was to follow as such for 40,000. Chaos Space Marines, Dark Angels, Eldar and then Sisters, thus Sisters would be released in the 2nd Qtr of 2013.

However something was not right, and from early 2012 GW conducted surveys unbeknownst the public, it looked at the forums, and off the cuff questions at venues as to what percentage of those would collect Sisters and change to fielding Sisters armies.
The result was not as shocking to GW and it was running consistently at above 80% of those who would dump their current armies to field Sisters, this caused a major problem for GW.

It would certainly be a money winner, but it would cause almost total destruction to the Lord of the Rings and up-coming Hobbit range, this is in violation of its license to fully support this range, it couldn't with Sisters a reality, then this would cause a almost catastrophic impact of Fantasy with Fantasy players leaving this genre in their droves, and also this would also impact heavily on the rest of 40,000 itself, with only Chaos and Imperial forces surviving, factions like Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Necrons, Tyranids would be left to rot on the shelves gathering dust.

Also this would impact on the tournament scene, the survey indicated that up to 80% of fielded armies would be Sisters Armies. This could not be allowed and so the Board of GW and CEO canned the whole shebang in March 2013.

All the new Sisters models that had been produced for the codex had been destroyed, the moulds destroyed and all data files also destroyed, but GW needed an excuse that made some sort of plausible sense and that was the undercutting issue could not be resolved and then leaked out to forums and other lines of communications.

Sisters would cause to much damage to the other lines in the world of GW, so GW are paying monies towards Forgeworld to take on Sisters for a minimum of 6 months and an option for a further 6 months, but the intent is to eventually squat Sisters as they did with Chaos Dwarfs.

Onto another issue I raised and that was Beastmen in 40,000, as Children of Chaos, the reason is that Chaos needs to add a further faction to make Abaddon's 13th Crusade workable with the fluff and ties in with the End of Times.

If you say a lie enough times, it eventually becomes truth. Can someone point me to the original post (obviously with attached video of Jes Goodwin speaking the words) where it was said that the sleeves and hair were an impenetrable barrier to plastic sisters? I've asked this question before and never got a response from those that parrot this myth.

 Troike wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
He was just joking: the most powerful Sister ever has no bob cut whatsoever.

Yeah, Celestine has managed to tap into the power of the pixie cut.

Mmm, dat pixie cut.