Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/15 20:14:34

Wow. Just wow.

Two weeks after the release of the Space Wolves codex, GW is releasing the Grey Knights codex. Did anybody see this coming? I dont think there ever has been a time in the 25 year history of Warhammer 40k where two main army codexes were released in such short manner. Of course, one part of me is super excited - especially looking at that awesome cover art - but another part of me says this book is going to be an epic fail. I mean - let's face it - they are REMOVING all the non Grey Knight units from the book. That means Inquisitors, Karamazov, Valeria, Coteaz, all the henchmen, servitors, mystics, jokaeros, ....hell, even the assassins will be removed from the codex and only available as paid dataslate. What's more, the codex is most likely to follow the layout of 7th edition dexes, meaning NO ARTWORK in the bestiarum, no army list section, and the fluff in the bestiarum will be put in italics and crammed to the side to make it especially hard to read, making way for oversized pictures of the miniatures.

And given how rumors say there are no new kits with this release, my hopes of the codex actually introducing new Grey Knight units are very slim. So we're actually downgrading in this new codex? Hell, even the front cover artwork, upon closer inspection, isn't made by the same guy who made the artwork for most of the other codexes - you can already tell by how the Grey Knight lacks that realistic 3D feel that the other ones had.



What do you think?

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/15 20:17:12

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/15 20:33:51

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/15 20:36:20

 Sir Arun wrote:
Did anybody see this coming?

The forty page thread in News & Rumours did

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/15 20:41:54

 Ghaz wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Did anybody see this coming?

The forty page thread in News & Rumours did

and its only 2 weeks old

usually rumors show up at least over a month in advance on faeit or natfka so I was taken by surprise

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/15 21:50:16

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/15 22:46:35

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/15 22:59:11

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/15 23:09:37

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 00:29:49

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 00:43:05

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 00:45:31

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 00:52:40

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 01:30:10

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 02:14:31

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 03:31:29

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 04:27:10

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 04:58:36

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 05:07:17

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 05:45:08

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 07:25:05

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 07:37:36

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 07:48:27

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 07:51:37

Makumba wrote:
What new units do GK get for losing the inquisition , henchman and assasins?

har har nice one

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 07:51:51

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 07:55:02

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 08:13:10

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 13:01:58

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 13:16:37

Hey, that's not true. GW aren't screwing their competition, they are giving guys like Corvus Bellie, Spartan Games, Mantic and Privateer Press a real boost

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 15:27:11

Fireraven wrote:Its not about the Fluff. The codex should be just about the army units and paint patterns. If you want Fluff then the novels come out every month it seems that has a mix of stories for all of the armies of 40k.

Personally, I drastically prefer GW's own fluff compared to the contradictory ideas put forth by the outsourced freelancers of Black Library. Though the setting does not have a proper canon, meaning all fluff is equally valid, I would find it a monumental mistake to just remove the vision of the original creators. Especially seeing as my favourite army is one that regularly sees codex-defying "misrepresentation" from these licensed sources.

The game - and various GW designers have acknowledged this in interviews in the past - has always been about a mixture of "crunch" and "fluff", the latter providing the framework for people's fantasies. If imagination would not be important and it's all just about numbers, we might just as well play with these:

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 15:39:11

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 18:19:11

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 18:58:17

 Sir Arun wrote:
Yeah well this is ridiculous.

I dig that IG and the occasional Smurf wants to have an Assassin at his side as well. But stripping the assassins away from the GK codex (which otherwise already is pretty mundane without additional flavor) and selling it separately as an army book that contains 4 units is plain money robbing

Nothing new here. Assassins have been in a strange place ever since 3rd edition.

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 18:59:44

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 19:14:51

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 19:18:52

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 19:22:48

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 19:31:14

 Sir Arun wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Yeah well this is ridiculous.

I dig that IG and the occasional Smurf wants to have an Assassin at his side as well. But stripping the assassins away from the GK codex (which otherwise already is pretty mundane without additional flavor) and selling it separately as an army book that contains 4 units is plain money robbing

Nothing new here. Assassins have been in a strange place ever since 3rd edition.

I believe that was also a 30 page book similar in size to the old craftworlds codex and sold for like $15

It was free with your purchase of White Dwarf when it was first released

There was also a 2nd edition Codex Assassins that used the same artwork.

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 19:53:48

actualy as dementedwombat wrote they were codexes, and i believe that removeing them from GK is a right choice . about the codex realeses if they are not from the same person they can crated in same time and realsed even the same day, its a sing of better financial than worse. now if they are from same person is bad sign,,,,,
i hope GW stay well, its a big company and i love w40k, i wont want to lose it
aslo i wanted to reales a BA codex, GK werent in that problem for nerf/buff when BA realy need a buff (comperad to the other SM)

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 20:00:46

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 20:11:44

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 20:23:14

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 20:26:07

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 20:37:25

 Crimson Devil wrote:
On the bright side. All of the codexes should be out before they declare bankruptcy. Probably still won't have my Bretonnian book by then though.

Considering the quality of new GW releases, maybe you should consider yourself lucky than
The lack of attention for WHFB may actually be for the better. At the very least it makes WHFB more stable and balanced than 40k.

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 20:42:24

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 20:49:21

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 20:53:03

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 23:20:55

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 23:32:11

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 23:45:08

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/16 23:59:55

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/17 01:40:26

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/17 14:40:18

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/17 14:59:56

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/17 15:37:01

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/17 15:44:00

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/17 15:53:14

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/17 17:22:02

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/17 17:41:22

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 12:22:17

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 12:33:01

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 20:21:29

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 22:00:25

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 22:52:56

 Las wrote:
Ever hear the expression piss or get off the pot?

And everyone's pissing. Specifically, pissing on Games Workshop.

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 23:21:44

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 23:30:51

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 23:33:22

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 23:38:06

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 23:55:41

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 23:56:47

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/19 23:57:49

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 00:06:19

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 01:04:55

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 01:07:44

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 01:50:37

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 02:22:06

 Jancoran wrote:

So I suggest people look at their model collections in AWE, for they really ARE the best in the industry and thank the Gawds that anyone even came up with this awesome game. It'll never be perfect. it'll never be {fill in the blanks of your favorite bitch in this spot right here}. But those models are AWESOME, it's why DakkaDakka even EXISTS and you're posting in it.

So do all the nerd raging you can but in the end: stop pretending like its not awesome. Because no game has come CLOSE to the following this one has and you're all very much members of that frternity even when you dont want to admit it.

Mutilators, Wilford Brimley ogryns, 3rd edition obliterators, Nagash (old), tuarox, SW hover bathtub and khornedozer would like a word with you.

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 02:32:35

Post by: Jancoran

 Blacksails wrote:

Davor wrote:


Since I see no smiley with tongue sticking out, not sure if serious or not. Looks like you are serious since I can't detect any sarcasm here, can you please explain why GW would release everything in hard cover first before going bankrupt. That makes no sense. GW doesn't care if people get their hard covers if they go kaput.

Second. GW is not going bankrupt. They don't owe anyone money, they are still in the black and making profit. Small profit but none the less, it's still profit, in the Black and don't OWE any money. So why are thy going bankrupt?

You do understand that most companies that go bankrupt don't look like it years in advance? You do also understand that currently being in the black doesn't mean they won't ever dip below? You also understand that the factors that caused their drop in revenue will continue to cause a drop in revenue, furthered by their statement that they do no market research, nor care what the market wants.

Put those together, and its not hyperbole to say that GW could be bankrupt in two years. It may take longer, it may take less time, but their current strategy doesn't appear to be stable.

Maybe you should read some business peoples' thoughts on the matter.

Sorry but thats just a lot of if's. they're not going under. So.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Musashi363 wrote:

Mutilators, Wilford Brimley ogryns, 3rd edition obliterators, Nagash (old), tuarox, SW hover bathtub and khornedozer would like a word with you.

a couple bad models (and we dont agree in regards to the 3rd Edition Obliterators AT ALL, and I dont play apocalypse so Im not plagued with that crappy Khornedozer, yet) simply don't disprove the rule.

Haters gonna' hate though.

Reply by: Psienesis - click to view full reply 

39550

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 02:45:11

Post by: Psienesis

So I suggest people look at their model collections in AWE, for they really ARE the best in the industry and thank the Gawds that anyone even came up with this awesome game. It'll never be perfect. it'll never be {fill in the blanks of your favorite bitch in this spot right here}. But those models are AWESOME, it's why DakkaDakka even EXISTS and you're posting in it.

So do all the nerd raging you can but in the end: stop pretending like its not awesome. Because no game has come CLOSE to the following this one has and you're all very much members of that frternity even when you dont want to admit it.

Ehm.... Dungeons & Dragons had more players/fans, in its heyday, world-wide than 40K ever has ever seen. In fact, D&D might still have more players world-wide than 40K does. For gamer-nerds, D&D is the universal "fall back" game. Just met a new group of gamer-nerds? The one thing you can almost always count on is that they've played D&D.

Maybe 40K is a big deal in the table-top wargaming world (and, make no mistake, it is), but let us not pretend that it is the Greatest Game Ever Made.

By those comparisons, there are *lots* more nerd-fandoms with far greater market appeal and far, far larger playerbases.

As far as models are concerned? Once upon a time, yes. No longer. There are many, many studios consistently putting out better-quality miniatures at lower prices.

Reply by: Noir - click to view full reply 

33816

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 02:57:25

Post by: Noir

 Jancoran wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Davor wrote:


Since I see no smiley with tongue sticking out, not sure if serious or not. Looks like you are serious since I can't detect any sarcasm here, can you please explain why GW would release everything in hard cover first before going bankrupt. That makes no sense. GW doesn't care if people get their hard covers if they go kaput.

Second. GW is not going bankrupt. They don't owe anyone money, they are still in the black and making profit. Small profit but none the less, it's still profit, in the Black and don't OWE any money. So why are thy going bankrupt?

You do understand that most companies that go bankrupt don't look like it years in advance? You do also understand that currently being in the black doesn't mean they won't ever dip below? You also understand that the factors that caused their drop in revenue will continue to cause a drop in revenue, furthered by their statement that they do no market research, nor care what the market wants.

Put those together, and its not hyperbole to say that GW could be bankrupt in two years. It may take longer, it may take less time, but their current strategy doesn't appear to be stable.

Maybe you should read some business peoples' thoughts on the matter.

Sorry but thats just a lot of if's. they're not going under. So.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Musashi363 wrote:

Mutilators, Wilford Brimley ogryns, 3rd edition obliterators, Nagash (old), tuarox, SW hover bathtub and khornedozer would like a word with you.

a couple bad models (and we dont agree in regards to the 3rd Edition Obliterators AT ALL, and I dont play apocalypse so Im not plagued with that crappy Khornedozer, yet) simply don't disprove the rule.

Haters gonna' hate though.

What is Apocalypse , khornedozer is a core game unit. A hail the wisdom of making Super Heavies fit so well in with everything else . Plus GW models really aren't the good and crap technical point of view (they are so far behind the times in plastic production it not even funny). The LotR stuff, most of that was pretty but that don't disprove the rule .

Reply by: jonolikespie - click to view full reply 

32159

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 03:13:15

Post by: jonolikespie

 Jancoran wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Davor wrote:


Since I see no smiley with tongue sticking out, not sure if serious or not. Looks like you are serious since I can't detect any sarcasm here, can you please explain why GW would release everything in hard cover first before going bankrupt. That makes no sense. GW doesn't care if people get their hard covers if they go kaput.

Second. GW is not going bankrupt. They don't owe anyone money, they are still in the black and making profit. Small profit but none the less, it's still profit, in the Black and don't OWE any money. So why are thy going bankrupt?

You do understand that most companies that go bankrupt don't look like it years in advance? You do also understand that currently being in the black doesn't mean they won't ever dip below? You also understand that the factors that caused their drop in revenue will continue to cause a drop in revenue, furthered by their statement that they do no market research, nor care what the market wants.

Put those together, and its not hyperbole to say that GW could be bankrupt in two years. It may take longer, it may take less time, but their current strategy doesn't appear to be stable.

Maybe you should read some business peoples' thoughts on the matter.

Sorry but thats just a lot of if's. they're not going under. So.

Please point out the 'if's, I couldn't see any.

At this point we *are* at the point of GW going under in the next 1-3 years IF they don't do anything to change corse. Except GW hasn't shown any sign of doing that, in fact Kirby had a whole ramble about how they would stay the course because it is one that is focused on 'long term potential'.

Reply by: clively - click to view full reply 

27004

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 03:22:30

Post by: clively

 jonolikespie wrote:
I haven't been around for that full 15 years but in my time in the hobby I've never seen GWs profits fall 42% in a single year before, nor have I seen a time when it was easier to find a game of something other than 40k but in a growing number of areas the reality is mantic, warmahodes, infinity, x wing and Spartan games have taken over

THAT is the difference between then and now.

The ideas GW is putting into play right now might have worked better even 5 years ago. Today it's a dicey proposition because it is dependent on what that competition does. GW has taken a pretty big gamble on their market dominance. They are betting that the majority of 40k players will continue to accept the idea of buying not just a codex but also further supplements and/or other codexes to round out their armies. They know this means losing more "casual" players along the way (those with 1 army) but GW thinks the "hardcore" ones (those with more than 1 army) make up a huge proportion of their customer base. I don't know enough to say if that's right or wrong.

If the competition decides to adopt similar strategies, then things will balance out as players become acclimated to the new normal. If the competition doesn't, then you'll see GW to continue to slide. Honestly, I'd bet a number of the regular wargaming competitors go ahead and implement this because the concept is alluring. After all, when GW began increasing the prices of the models to the point of absurdity, the competitors were only a year or two behind. Sure they made fun videos and blog posts about GW's prices, then quietly did the exact same thing.

X-Wing is in a category that FFG has completely owned by solving a majority of the problems that GW has ignored or continued to make worse. Yes, Star Wars is a hot property no matter how you look at it; however, even titles in that subject matter can fail. What is FFG doing different? Streamlined, clear and simple rules for starters. Tournament play with support for retailers. Low model count - still absurd prices per model, but you don't need many so most people over look the $15+ price tag for something you used to get out of a gumball machine for a quarter. (Ok, the "models" are better than that, just not by much imho. Do any of them have more than 2 or 3 colors?).

Essentially FFG is like those Ready To Fly RC helicopters you can buy everywhere. Simple to operate, cheap and overly mass produced but it works with no BS. Meanwhile GW is still producing blocks of balsa you need to cut out yourself, while hoping you don't trim too much and that it isn't warped.... It's a completely different mindset and when I walk into one of the large local hobby shops and see 20 people playing SW and 6 playing 40k (on 40k night) then there is a clear winner. Side note: I find it incredibly funny that FFG implemented their game mechanics such that it actually could be used as a beer and pretzel / party game...

What GW needs to do is realize that they've created a bloated monster that needs the reset button pushed. Making it worse by scattering their product (the rules) across multiple dozens of publications isn't going to work long term....unless their main wargame competitors (mantic, privateer press, spartan, etc) decide to not think for themselves and follow suit. I don't think everyone that plays 40k would get the same enjoyment out of X-Wing, but they might out of something by PP or the others.

I sincerely hope those guys decide to not jump off the same cliff as GW. Namely because GW needs to take a real beating so they can find the motivation to truly reinvent themselves.

Reply by: TheKbob - click to view full reply 

53985

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 04:21:28

Post by: TheKbob

A game on it's Seventh Edition should not see game breaking and collection killing swathing changes. The Grey Knights book has to be the absolute worst release to date with its straight kick to the junk and literally nothing to show for it. There's no sugar coating it. Even the "haters" can't point to the new "must have" model because there are no new models.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:


Just been hearing and reading this for over 15 years. What makes you more correct than say the people who were saying this 15 years ago? I mean you can almost say the exact same thing was said back then that is said being now.

There's at least 5 threads over, what, 40 pages long in the Dakka Discussions forum that cover this topic thoroughly. Here's the thing you can read, it's 15 or 16 parts long now and covers all the details from someone who's both a self proclaimed biggest fan boy and has corporate executive knowledge of an internationally recognized company larger than Games Workshop:

http://masterminis.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-future-of-games-days-games-workshop.html

Read that series, read those threads, and then come back. You'll probably be looking at these latest releases in a new light and realize that the writings on the wall if this crap continues. Part 17 is due out later this month, by the way, which will be his break down of the latest financials. Spoilers: They suck. Really bad.

Reply by: MWHistorian - click to view full reply 

74682

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 04:28:47

Post by: MWHistorian

 Jancoran wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

Davor wrote:


Since I see no smiley with tongue sticking out, not sure if serious or not. Looks like you are serious since I can't detect any sarcasm here, can you please explain why GW would release everything in hard cover first before going bankrupt. That makes no sense. GW doesn't care if people get their hard covers if they go kaput.

Second. GW is not going bankrupt. They don't owe anyone money, they are still in the black and making profit. Small profit but none the less, it's still profit, in the Black and don't OWE any money. So why are thy going bankrupt?

You do understand that most companies that go bankrupt don't look like it years in advance? You do also understand that currently being in the black doesn't mean they won't ever dip below? You also understand that the factors that caused their drop in revenue will continue to cause a drop in revenue, furthered by their statement that they do no market research, nor care what the market wants.

Put those together, and its not hyperbole to say that GW could be bankrupt in two years. It may take longer, it may take less time, but their current strategy doesn't appear to be stable.

Maybe you should read some business peoples' thoughts on the matter.

Sorry but thats just a lot of if's. they're not going under. So.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Musashi363 wrote:

Mutilators, Wilford Brimley ogryns, 3rd edition obliterators, Nagash (old), tuarox, SW hover bathtub and khornedozer would like a word with you.

a couple bad models (and we dont agree in regards to the 3rd Edition Obliterators AT ALL, and I dont play apocalypse so Im not plagued with that crappy Khornedozer, yet) simply don't disprove the rule.

Haters gonna' hate though.

Here's someone without a dog in the fight that knows a lot more about business than either of us. He says the future of GW isn't pretty at all. They're going down. They're doing nothing to stop that descent.

http://masterminis.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-future-of-games-workshop-part-15.html

Reply by: BlaxicanX - click to view full reply 

51881

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 04:35:07

Post by: BlaxicanX

Releasing the GK codex so soon isn't that surprising considering that they aren't releasing any new models or units for it, and are basically just nerfing and removing a whole bunch of gak from it and sprinkling some points reductions around as "compensation".

Frankly, the changes they're making to the 'dex could all be completed in a good 8 hour day's work.

Reply by: TheKbob - click to view full reply 

53985

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 04:37:51

Post by: TheKbob

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Releasing the GK codex so soon isn't that surprising considering that they aren't releasing any new models or units for it, and are basically just nerfing and removing a whole bunch of gak from it and sprinkling some points reductions around as "compensation".

Frankly, the changes they're making to the 'dex could all be completed in a good 8 hour day's work.

It could be errata, realistically.

Sorry, it IS errata, basically.

Reply by: Backfire - click to view full reply 

15717

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 05:32:22

Post by: Backfire

 Blacksails wrote:

Davor wrote:


Since I see no smiley with tongue sticking out, not sure if serious or not. Looks like you are serious since I can't detect any sarcasm here, can you please explain why GW would release everything in hard cover first before going bankrupt. That makes no sense. GW doesn't care if people get their hard covers if they go kaput.

Second. GW is not going bankrupt. They don't owe anyone money, they are still in the black and making profit. Small profit but none the less, it's still profit, in the Black and don't OWE any money. So why are thy going bankrupt?

You do understand that most companies that go bankrupt don't look like it years in advance? You do also understand that currently being in the black doesn't mean they won't ever dip below? You also understand that the factors that caused their drop in revenue will continue to cause a drop in revenue, furthered by their statement that they do no market research, nor care what the market wants.

Put those together, and its not hyperbole to say that GW could be bankrupt in two years. It may take longer, it may take less time, but their current strategy doesn't appear to be stable.

Maybe you should read some business peoples' thoughts on the matter.

No, it is complete hyperbole that GW could go under in 2 years. Maybe 5 years, yes, if they do real bad. Most companies that go bankrupt DO look that way years advance - I don't know where do you get the idea that they don't.

When GW did not update army books, it was a sign that they were doing poorly because they tried to avoid the cost of updating an army.
When GW does update army books, it is a sign that they are doing poorly because they are in panic mode to get more sales.

The truth is that slow codex update schedule was something players complained for years. Now that GW has rectified the situation, the people complain again - often very selfsame people...

Reply by: TheKbob - click to view full reply 

53985

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 05:42:19

Post by: TheKbob

Backfire wrote:


No, it is complete hyperbole that GW could go under in 2 years. Maybe 5 years, yes, if they do real bad. Most companies that go bankrupt DO look that way years advance - I don't know where do you get the idea that they don't.

When GW did not update army books, it was a sign that they were doing poorly because they tried to avoid the cost of updating an army.
When GW does update army books, it is a sign that they are doing poorly because they are in panic mode to get more sales.

The truth is that slow codex update schedule was something players complained for years. Now that GW has rectified the situation, the people complain again - often very selfsame people...

It should be noted that Backfire, when contributing to said threads, provides no real data for his 'contrary to the facts' position. Even this statement lacks the granularity of the situation of massed releases being thrown out at low quality with higher prices, such as they are now, and still having a major reduction of profits. All while the company has cut costs to as low as possible without further cutting production capabilities, or better known as the ability to continue making revenue as they are.

Essentially, the economics right now all point to GW being in a bad position and, without any major changes to their actions or a huge up swell in the player base, are very likely in a "death spiral" (actual econ term) and can easily fold within 18-24 months.

This is my parroting from the folks who are versed in corporate finance. I'm just an engineer that can connect data and follow logic all which state that this stupid crap is going to make people quit the game more and faster. Less people means less free advertising, which means fewer new players, which means even less opponents ... all accumulating in lower and lower sales volume. All of this handily wrapped up in their recent public financial statement. This is the brief version, by the way.

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 06:17:33

Post by: Jancoran

 Psienesis wrote:

So I suggest people look at their model collections in AWE, for they really ARE the best in the industry and thank the Gawds that anyone even came up with this awesome game. It'll never be perfect. it'll never be {fill in the blanks of your favorite bitch in this spot right here}. But those models are AWESOME, it's why DakkaDakka even EXISTS and you're posting in it.

So do all the nerd raging you can but in the end: stop pretending like its not awesome. Because no game has come CLOSE to the following this one has and you're all very much members of that frternity even when you dont want to admit it.

Ehm.... Dungeons & Dragons had more players/fans, in its heyday, world-wide than 40K ever has ever seen. In fact, D&D might still have more players world-wide than 40K does. For gamer-nerds, D&D is the universal "fall back" game. Just met a new group of gamer-nerds? The one thing you can almost always count on is that they've played D&D.

Maybe 40K is a big deal in the table-top wargaming world (and, make no mistake, it is), but let us not pretend that it is the Greatest Game Ever Made.

By those comparisons, there are *lots* more nerd-fandoms with far greater market appeal and far, far larger playerbases.

As far as models are concerned? Once upon a time, yes. No longer. There are many, many studios consistently putting out better-quality miniatures at lower prices.

Good luck selling that doomsday scenario.

Reply by: Backfire - click to view full reply 

15717

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 06:22:50

Post by: Backfire

 TheKbob wrote:

Backfire wrote:


No, it is complete hyperbole that GW could go under in 2 years. Maybe 5 years, yes, if they do real bad. Most companies that go bankrupt DO look that way years advance - I don't know where do you get the idea that they don't.

When GW did not update army books, it was a sign that they were doing poorly because they tried to avoid the cost of updating an army.
When GW does update army books, it is a sign that they are doing poorly because they are in panic mode to get more sales.

The truth is that slow codex update schedule was something players complained for years. Now that GW has rectified the situation, the people complain again - often very selfsame people...

It should be noted that Backfire, when contributing to said threads, provides no real data for his 'contrary to the facts' position.

LOL. OK, I admit it is completely unproven that most of the playerbase didn't prefer the old release schedule. Maybe they secretly liked it and all the complaint threads here were not representative of the actual feelings of the playerbase? I mean, it's POSSIBLE.

 TheKbob wrote:

Even this statement lacks the granularity of the situation of massed releases being thrown out at low quality with higher prices, such as they are now, and still having a major reduction of profits.

...but of course YOU can go throw out statements like this, and it goes without saying that they are factual, right?
I mean, is, for example, new Space Marine Tactical Squad worse quality than the old, cheaper one? Or how about the new 7th edition rulebook compared to the 5th or 6th edition BRB's?

 TheKbob wrote:

All while the company has cut costs to as low as possible without further cutting production capabilities, or better known as the ability to continue making revenue as they are.

Production, likely yes, especially as there has been occasional reports that they struggle to produce enough new stuff for sale . But they can cut other stuff if push comes to shove. Retail, most notably.

 TheKbob wrote:

Essentially, the economics right now all point to GW being in a bad position and, without any major changes to their actions or a huge up swell in the player base, are very likely in a "death spiral" (actual econ term) and can easily fold within 18-24 months.

No, 'death spiral' is actually figure skating term.

 TheKbob wrote:

This is my parroting from the folks who are versed in corporate finance.

People who are versed in corporate finance and invest on GW seem to disagree. The markets do not appear to believe GW will go under in 18 to 24 months. It would show in share price in quite dramatic fashion.

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 06:26:54

Post by: Jancoran

 MWHistorian wrote:

Here's someone without a dog in the fight that knows a lot more about business than either of us. He says the future of GW isn't pretty at all. They're going down. They're doing nothing to stop that descent.

http://masterminis.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-future-of-games-workshop-part-15.html

I'm a business owner and I say no. He's a biz guy and he says yes. Whatever. I am in the financial field. I think I know more about business than this dude on... what is it? Masterminis.net? Lol. Come on.

But this isn;t an exercize in measure biological protrusions. Here's how things actually work: Dividends come from profits. No profits, no dividends. Now go look at the Dividends and be awed.

So while their STOCK (which is no more than a reflection of investor confidence and only matters to those WITH it, which may or may not even include the company itself) did crash and crash hard a year into 6E, it is already recovering. Meanwhile, anyone with a Browser can go view the mammoth Dividends for themselves. And here's the winner for ya: people LIKE 7E a lot more and it, like 5E D&D, is already winning people back.

So while I dont wanna' dis this guy you're citing, All he's doing is looking at the same report Ive seen and making snide overly simplistic comments about it... but he's not analyzing it and he SURE as hell doesnt know context.

Reply by: Ferrum_Sanguinis - click to view full reply 

57815

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 06:41:37

Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis

 Sir Arun wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
Yeah well this is ridiculous.

I dig that IG and the occasional Smurf wants to have an Assassin at his side as well. But stripping the assassins away from the GK codex (which otherwise already is pretty mundane without additional flavor) and selling it separately as an army book that contains 4 units is plain money robbing

Nothing new here. Assassins have been in a strange place ever since 3rd edition.

Goes back further than that. Assassins were just "imperial agents" in 2nd Edition.

Tying them into the Grey Knights was what was weird and out of character for 40K. Not taking them away from it.

At the same time it was also what elevated GKs from a niche army barely anyone played, to a "full" army like Smurfs, Eldar, Tau etc.

I thought that had more to do with the awesome models GW released for the GK 5e dex, which remain IMO the best PA and TDA models they've ever made (and yes, I like the DK).

Reply by: Noir - click to view full reply 

33816

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 06:55:12

Post by: Noir

Backfire wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Backfire wrote:


No, it is complete hyperbole that GW could go under in 2 years. Maybe 5 years, yes, if they do real bad. Most companies that go bankrupt DO look that way years advance - I don't know where do you get the idea that they don't.

When GW did not update army books, it was a sign that they were doing poorly because they tried to avoid the cost of updating an army.
When GW does update army books, it is a sign that they are doing poorly because they are in panic mode to get more sales.

The truth is that slow codex update schedule was something players complained for years. Now that GW has rectified the situation, the people complain again - often very selfsame people...

It should be noted that Backfire, when contributing to said threads, provides no real data for his 'contrary to the facts' position.

LOL. OK, I admit it is completely unproven that most of the playerbase didn't prefer the old release schedule. Maybe they secretly liked it and all the complaint threads here were not representative of the actual feelings of the playerbase? I mean, it's POSSIBLE.

Since the majority don't post on forums, very possible. doesn't really matter as their report show sell are down even with the faster releases.

Backfire wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Even this statement lacks the granularity of the situation of massed releases being thrown out at low quality with higher prices, such as they are now, and still having a major reduction of profits.

...but of course YOU can go throw out statements like this, and it goes without saying that they are factual, right?
I mean, is, for example, new Space Marine Tactical Squad worse quality than the old, cheaper one? Or how about the new 7th edition rulebook compared to the 5th or 6th edition BRB's?

The book hand down worse, it is sad when people are willing blind to it doesn't change the fact.

Backfire wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:

Essentially, the economics right now all point to GW being in a bad position and, without any major changes to their actions or a huge up swell in the player base, are very likely in a "death spiral" (actual econ term) and can easily fold within 18-24 months.

No, 'death spiral' is actually figure skating term.

No it used in both, not a great evade there.

Reply by: jonolikespie - click to view full reply 

32159

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 08:46:30

Post by: jonolikespie

 Jancoran wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Here's someone without a dog in the fight that knows a lot more about business than either of us. He says the future of GW isn't pretty at all. They're going down. They're doing nothing to stop that descent.

http://masterminis.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-future-of-games-workshop-part-15.html

I'm a business owner and I say no. He's a biz guy and he says yes. Whatever. I am in the financial field. I think I know more about business than this dude on... what is it? Masterminis.net? Lol. Come on.

I really hope that is sarcasm.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 09:06:21

Post by: nosferatu1001

Noir - wait, the 7th edition BRB is worse than the 5th and 6th? Its better laid out, significantly better organised into the three books, and the artwork is superior, in my opinion.

So why is it "hand [sp] down worse"?

Reply by: Blacksails - click to view full reply 

34243

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 09:45:30

Post by: Blacksails

 Jancoran wrote:


Sorry but thats just a lot of if's. they're not going under. So.

Sorry, but thats just a lot of nothing. So.

Reply by: Backfire - click to view full reply 

15717

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 11:09:00

Post by: Backfire

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Noir - wait, the 7th edition BRB is worse than the 5th and 6th? Its better laid out, significantly better organised into the three books, and the artwork is superior, in my opinion.

So why is it "hand [sp] down worse"?

Yeah, that's a puzzling statement. The format is better, the paper feels better quality, the art and layout and pics are just as good as in earlier editions.
I mean, at worst you could argue that the format changes are not worth of 4€ price increase, though I'd personally disagree.

It is true that companies who are in financial trouble often begin cut corners on quality. However what they usually do is that they change to worse materials and keep charging equivalent prices. I guess it could be said that Finecast is an example of this, but that is not a recent development. 7th edition BRB is pretty poor example however as I am sure that it cost more for GW to produce than earlier edition rulebooks.

Reply by: Sir Arun - click to view full reply 

78925

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 11:11:22

Post by: Sir Arun

Well for one the 7th edition rulebook looks like a 5 year old with ADHD was in charge of its formatting and couldnt help himself but paste a big shiny pic of painted models almost every single page, pics that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the rules being presented on that particular page.


In a rulebook, when I see pictures, I expect them to only display situations the rules are mentioning.

At least when reading the rule books of older 40k editions, I didnt feel like there was someone next to me saying "ooh ooh ooh btw. look at this cool army right here!"

Reply by: Backfire - click to view full reply 

15717

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 11:19:01

Post by: Backfire

It actually caught my eye too that some of the pics seemed just kinda pointless and did little to nothing to clarify the rules talked about in the text. However, that comes down to artistic preference, and has nothing to do with production quality which by every measure is equal or better than in previous editions.

Reply by: Musashi363 - click to view full reply 

75478

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 11:57:21

Post by: Musashi363

7th edition is already winning players back?? LOL! Where in their finincial report would you find that empirical evidence?

Reply by: Mechanical Crow - click to view full reply 

88018

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 12:03:44

Post by: Mechanical Crow

Backfire wrote:
It actually caught my eye too that some of the pics seemed just kinda pointless and did little to nothing to clarify the rules talked about in the text. However, that comes down to artistic preference, and has nothing to do with production quality which by every measure is equal or better than in previous editions.

Other then some of the models being unfinished or drybrushed that's a quality thing.

Reply by: nosferatu1001 - click to view full reply 

11268

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 12:37:11

Post by: nosferatu1001

 Sir Arun wrote:
Well for one the 7th edition rulebook looks like a 5 year old with ADHD was in charge of its formatting and couldnt help himself but paste a big shiny pic of painted models almost every single page, pics that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the rules being presented on that particular page.


In a rulebook, when I see pictures, I expect them to only display situations the rules are mentioning.

At least when reading the rule books of older 40k editions, I didnt feel like there was someone next to me saying "ooh ooh ooh btw. look at this cool army right here!"

Formatting issues can be blamed for that

What do you propose they put in the gap? Just a grot whistling, saying nothing to see here? Page layout, and rule layout requirements, mean you are always going to have some white space. What do you propose they fill it in with? The grot, as above? Or a pretty picture of a model, for this model-defined hobby?

Still not "hand [sic] down" worse.

Reply by: MWHistorian - click to view full reply 

74682

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 13:04:17

Post by: MWHistorian

Id say that the GK dex is an example of cutting corners while charging more.

Reply by: Chute82 - click to view full reply 

53516

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 13:23:52

Post by: Chute82

It's printed in china.. I would not mind the price if it was printed in a country that pays fare wages. Sorry I am a union guy

Reply by: Mechanical Crow - click to view full reply 

88018

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 13:47:02

Post by: Mechanical Crow

 MWHistorian wrote:
Id say that the GK dex is an example of cutting corners while charging more.

The EA approach. Copy paste, make it pretty and charge more. It's like used car salesmen rolling back odometers and adding a new paint job while knowing its going to break down in a 100km.

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 17:52:27

Post by: Jancoran

 Blacksails wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


Sorry but thats just a lot of if's. they're not going under. So.

Sorry, but thats just a lot of nothing. So.

For those who dont know context, yes. it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Musashi363 wrote:
7th edition is already winning players back?? LOL! Where in their finincial report would you find that empirical evidence?

Im on a pretty good numebr of forums and have seen the evidence Impirically. It is a fact that people are returning to this hobby after long Hiatus. This very forum contains many a post from people returning to it but there are so many others and the trend is quite noticeable.

Reply by: filbert - click to view full reply 

18410

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 18:18:46

Post by: filbert

I think the word you are looking for there then is 'anecdotal' not empirical.

Reply by: daddyorchips - click to view full reply 

67390

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 18:38:21

Post by: daddyorchips

so is this codex any good at all? any new fluff? any pretty pictures?

Reply by: Super Newb - click to view full reply 

69128

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 18:41:16

Post by: Super Newb

 Blacksails wrote:
Its not like the GK codex took any work or effort.

Might as well burn $30, tear out pages from your existing book that no longer exist in the new one, and sharpie the new points costs.

Yup. I'm shocked more people aren't annoyed.

Reply by: Blacksails - click to view full reply 

34243

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 18:48:30

Post by: Blacksails

 Jancoran wrote:


For those who dont know context, yes. it is.

Care to enlighten us about this 'context'?

I'd be interested in seeing a viewpoint about how healthy GW is, especially if it was backed by some sort of data.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Super Newb wrote:


Yup. I'm shocked more people aren't annoyed.

There are plenty who are annoyed.

There are people who are saying that this is a good move.

I'd be more inclined to agree if the GK book was ~$20, Inq ~$5, and Assassins ~$5. Paying some ~$100 for what used to be in a $30 book is not a good thing.

Reply by: Super Newb - click to view full reply 

69128

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 19:05:10

Post by: Super Newb

 Blacksails wrote:

Super Newb wrote:


Yup. I'm shocked more people aren't annoyed.

There are plenty who are annoyed.

There are people who are saying that this is a good move.

I'd be more inclined to agree if the GK book was ~$20, Inq ~$5, and Assassins ~$5. Paying some ~$100 for what used to be in a $30 book is not a good thing.

Nope it definitely isn't a good thing. Which is why I am shocked that more people aren't annoyed. Plenty are, sure, but I don't understand those who aren't. Losing half the options and charging more money for less options should be supported by approximately 0% of players.

Reply by: TheKbob - click to view full reply 

53985

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 19:14:15

Post by: TheKbob

Most of what Backfire responded with had already been dismissed in the larger thread, so I'm not rehashing. Long story short, he's wrong.

As for 7E being a great success, I'll ssay, as well, prove it. We have evidence in financials, distributors saying its being outsold by other game companies, a marked uptick in army sell offs on eBay, polls here showing its least favored over previous editions, and more. Some hard evidence, some anecdotal, all though pointing towards the same answer; 7E is a bad game. But anyone who even dabbles in game design and theory knows this. And before someone says "buy I like it!" Liking something and it being bad are two separate issues.

Reply by: BlaxicanX - click to view full reply 

51881

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 20:05:50

Post by: BlaxicanX

Backfire wrote:
IHowever, that comes down to artistic preference, and has nothing to do with production quality which by every measure is equal or better than in previous editions.

Disagree. It's a formatting issue that objectively brings the book down. Those big ass pictures of irrelevant models could have been replaced with actual text and rules, making the sections more compact and requiring less flipping around.

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 20:47:50

Post by: Jancoran

This forum is NOT equipped to deal with an in depth discussion of investments, It's not a place where we can possible plumb the depths of comparing this performance to say...anyone elses? No. This is not the place. Most people here glaze over when you explain how it all works and then respond with "nuh uh" or even worse, try to use big words. That's the worst, because honestly, people believe more stupid things for reasons that SOUND good than they ever do for GOOD SOUND reasons.

So instead of getting baited into an argument that this forum cant handle, and it cant, here's what I'll say instead.

This is unprecedented. it's what people asked for for more than a decade since the first Dark eldar codex dropped: "Faster Updates!" You got it. "More frequent FAQ's". You got it. "Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything). "Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it. "Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it. "Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

UNprecedented indeed. And there's more coming. They give stores Prize support in the new contract. Most shop owners greedily steal it (literally) and tell you "I contribute tables and shop space" if you dare ask for it. But some are above board and actually let TO's use it.

And they EVEN gave you online versions to buy. You dont have to. I HATE using electronic versions. But it's there.

You asked. they delivered. And we still cant stop being the whiney little beeaches we are about it because when it comes down to it, there will always be some d-bag whose out there hating (all the while cluttering up their shelves with it in a fit of HYPOCRICY).

If you don't play, shut up. If you do play, then you love the game so stop bitching. Neither group is going to crash GW this year so... Just stop.

Reply by: Backfire - click to view full reply 

15717

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 21:01:45

Post by: Backfire

 TheKbob wrote:
Most of what Backfire responded with had already been dismissed in the larger thread, so I'm not rehashing. Long story short, he's wrong.

Well, I say that I am right and you are wrong. To infinity +1.

About 7th edition, objectively it's essentially same game as 6th with some slight improvements, so it is a better game. My only signifant issue with it is that they could have fixed more things what were wrong with 6th, but missed their opportunity.

Reply by: Blacksails - click to view full reply 

34243

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 22:22:39

Post by: Blacksails

 Jancoran wrote:


"Faster Updates!" You got it.

Yes, faster updates are a good thing. Those updates should have always been better, instead of waiting 5+ years. I think its a little disingenuous to praise them for going from a completely unacceptable gap in updating books to what every other company does standard.

"More frequent FAQ's". You got it.

Of questionable nature. This also ignore the part where the books that get released require a FAQ so soon. You'd think a book could be released and not need a FAQ to function properly. But this goes to the quality of their rules, which doesn't exactly set any gold standards.

"Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything).

Which ignores the problems with 7th that people are also unhappy about. Claiming 7th is all around better is questionable, as there were aspects of 7th that were introduced that are pretty poor examples of game design, and didn't address other issues people had with 6th in the first place. I wouldn't call 6th fixed by 7th, rather sidegraded.

"Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it.

Sure, in isolation having more cool models is a good thing. Take the Knight; that's a cool model. However, when you consider the cost of the book and quality of the rules with it, it looks not so ideal. Other models are a question of taste, like Santa Grimnar, but overall, GW's plastics are still excellent, a point which no one is really contesting anyways.

"Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it.

I don't recall this being a big issue before, but yeah, as above, GW's plastics are still good. Now the price though...

"Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

I don't think people wanting a lowering of points cost so much as they wanted a balanced game. To that end, they're still pretty far out. The last few books from my understanding are at least better internally and externally balanced than say Tau, Eldar or Chaos, but that's not anything to be proud of.

What your post misses that people are upset about and leaving the game over is the constant upping of price for less content, both in plastic and in the books. Cutting the GK book into three parts, and upping the cost of the book by double isn't anything to get excited about. The release of 7th just prior to the financial end year window two years earlier than most of their edition cycles, and with an increased price is also not exactly a good move.

For all the good GW has done, they've also done as much bad. They have admitted they do no research, nor care what the market (us) wants. The cost to get into the game is higher than it ever has been, and the rules still aren't on par with anything else on the market. To further this, the fluff hasn't exactly been improved upon in any way, and with examples like Murderclaw, it doesn't speak well to their general concern for maintaining and improving upon their decades of work fluffing out a very cool universe.

Seriously though, none of these changes are a result of their close analysis of market trends or research into what people want. They admitted as such.

You can call it hating and bitching all you want, but it doesn't make you more right than anyone else. It'd also help your point not to insult other people when making your points. You also sound quite worked up about this.

Cheer up, you can discuss things like a miniatures company without feeling like your faith is being attacked.

Reply by: Crimson Devil - click to view full reply 

199

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 22:26:07

Post by: Crimson Devil

 Jancoran wrote:
This forum is NOT equipped to deal with an in depth discussion of investments, It's not a place where we can possible plumb the depths of comparing this performance to say...anyone elses? No. This is not the place. Most people here glaze over when you explain how it all works and then respond with "nuh uh" or even worse, try to use big words. That's the worst, because honestly, people believe more stupid things for reasons that SOUND good than they ever do for GOOD SOUND reasons.

So instead of getting baited into an argument that this forum cant handle, and it cant, here's what I'll say instead.

This is unprecedented. it's what people asked for for more than a decade since the first Dark eldar codex dropped: "Faster Updates!" You got it. "More frequent FAQ's". You got it. "Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything). "Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it. "Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it. "Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

UNprecedented indeed. And there's more coming. They give stores Prize support in the new contract. Most shop owners greedily steal it (literally) and tell you "I contribute tables and shop space" if you dare ask for it. But some are above board and actually let TO's use it.

And they EVEN gave you online versions to buy. You dont have to. I HATE using electronic versions. But it's there.

You asked. they delivered. And we still cant stop being the whiney little beeaches we are about it because when it comes down to it, there will always be some d-bag whose out there hating (all the while cluttering up their shelves with it in a fit of HYPOCRICY).

If you don't play, shut up. If you do play, then you love the game so stop bitching. Neither group is going to crash GW this year so... Just stop.

Wow, you've got balls. You change the rules of the debate so you can have the final word and then tell everybody to shut up.

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 22:47:37

Post by: Jancoran

No. i told people who dont play to shut up...actually...

Reply by: TheKbob - click to view full reply 

53985

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 22:55:26

Post by: TheKbob

Backfire wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
Most of what Backfire responded with had already been dismissed in the larger thread, so I'm not rehashing. Long story short, he's wrong.

Well, I say that I am right and you are wrong. To infinity +1.

About 7th edition, objectively it's essentially same game as 6th with some slight improvements, so it is a better game. My only signifant issue with it is that they could have fixed more things what were wrong with 6th, but missed their opportunity.

Cool, go to said thread, repost what you did here, and we can continue the discussion there. Long story short, you'll still be wrong based on what you've been repeating with zero factual basis.

You're right that 7E is the same game, but "improvements" is a loose term and all the data says "No, its not." Sales, polls, game design critiques, etc.

Jancoran wrote:This forum is NOT equipped to deal with an in depth discussion of investments, It's not a place where we can possible plumb the depths of comparing this performance to say...anyone elses? No. This is not the place. Most people here glaze over when you explain how it all works and then respond with "nuh uh" or even worse, try to use big words. That's the worst, because honestly, people believe more stupid things for reasons that SOUND good than they ever do for GOOD SOUND reasons.

So instead of getting baited into an argument that this forum cant handle, and it cant, here's what I'll say instead.

This is unprecedented. it's what people asked for for more than a decade since the first Dark eldar codex dropped: "Faster Updates!" You got it. "More frequent FAQ's". You got it. "Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything). "Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it. "Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it. "Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

UNprecedented indeed. And there's more coming. They give stores Prize support in the new contract. Most shop owners greedily steal it (literally) and tell you "I contribute tables and shop space" if you dare ask for it. But some are above board and actually let TO's use it.

And they EVEN gave you online versions to buy. You dont have to. I HATE using electronic versions. But it's there.

You asked. they delivered. And we still cant stop being the whiney little beeaches we are about it because when it comes down to it, there will always be some d-bag whose out there hating (all the while cluttering up their shelves with it in a fit of HYPOCRICY).

If you don't play, shut up. If you do play, then you love the game so stop bitching. Neither group is going to crash GW this year so... Just stop.

Not only do you insult everyone who'd attempt to have a critical opinion, you create a black and white that's so far from reality that's your argument is insufferable and asinine
And you state that we are all so simple and pedantic that we could never discuss something like a companies financials. Basically you shut down any form of opposing argument not with facts,but by throwing a huge hissy fit.

*inset billy-madison.avi here*

Reply by: Blacksails - click to view full reply 

34243

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 23:09:41

Post by: Blacksails

 Jancoran wrote:
No. i told people who dont play to shut up...actually...

Which is so much better.

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/20 23:53:58

Post by: Jancoran

 Blacksails wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No. i told people who dont play to shut up...actually...

Which is so much better.

It is. Literally.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:

Not only do you insult everyone who'd attempt to have a critical opinion, you create a black and white that's so far from reality that's your argument is insufferable and asinine
And you state that we are all so simple and pedantic that we could never discuss something like a companies financials. Basically you shut down any form of opposing argument not with facts,but by throwing a huge hissy fit.

*inset billy-madison.avi here*

Well TheKBob, not EVERYONE is pedantic and simple minded...

I'll write down all these screen names and in a year, I am going to let you all know what happened in 2015 for GW. How bout we talk again January 2016? Sound good TheKBob? I'll cut and paste this stuff into a document so we wont, you know, "misquote" anyone.

I'm right, in which case you need to just say so and stop acting affronted (no one loves a Prima Donna)... Or I'm wrong in which case January 2016, I'll have some crow to eat. But you know... I doubt I will be doing that. I think you know I won't have to. Just a guess.

In either case, this isn't the place for this. Really not. Thats my opinion.

Reply by: Blacksails - click to view full reply 

34243

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 00:01:24

Post by: Blacksails

 Jancoran wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
No. i told people who dont play to shut up...actually...

Which is so much better.

It is. Literally.

Which doesn't make it good.

Reply by: TheKbob - click to view full reply 

53985

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 00:04:20

Post by: TheKbob

Cool. Take your opinion based on nothing but anecdotes, it seems, to the Dakka discussions thread, make your claim and "move on".

And you've posted nothing to the contrary of said facts of the matter. Not being a prima Donna (more ad hominem...), Im pointing out the massive fallacy that is your post(s).

won't need to wait until Jan 16, we'll have two financial statements to cull from. Given no signs of changing, and unless they do change, it's an easy prediction of declining revenues, little costs cutting left resulting in lower to no profits.

Reply by: jonolikespie - click to view full reply 

32159

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 00:43:20

Post by: jonolikespie

Jancoran wrote:This forum is NOT equipped to deal with an in depth discussion of investments, It's not a place where we can possible plumb the depths of comparing this performance to say...anyone elses? No. This is not the place. Most people here glaze over when you explain how it all works and then respond with "nuh uh" or even worse, try to use big words. That's the worst, because honestly, people believe more stupid things for reasons that SOUND good than they ever do for GOOD SOUND reasons.

So instead of getting baited into an argument that this forum cant handle, and it cant, here's what I'll say instead.

This is unprecedented. it's what people asked for for more than a decade since the first Dark eldar codex dropped: "Faster Updates!" You got it. "More frequent FAQ's". You got it. "Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything). "Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it. "Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it. "Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

UNprecedented indeed. And there's more coming. They give stores Prize support in the new contract. Most shop owners greedily steal it (literally) and tell you "I contribute tables and shop space" if you dare ask for it. But some are above board and actually let TO's use it.

And they EVEN gave you online versions to buy. You dont have to. I HATE using electronic versions. But it's there.

You asked. they delivered. And we still cant stop being the whiney little beeaches we are about it because when it comes down to it, there will always be some d-bag whose out there hating (all the while cluttering up their shelves with it in a fit of HYPOCRICY).

If you don't play, shut up. If you do play, then you love the game so stop bitching. Neither group is going to crash GW this year so... Just stop.

There is so much wrong there I really don't know where to begin.

For starters yes, this forum can handle serious discussions.. there have been several in Dakka Discussions which have had quite a bit of depth to them as well as coherent, well reasoned responses. They have also had EVIDENCE presented, something you have still failed to do.

Faster updates is good, but people assumed the quality would still be there when they asked for that. FAQs are abysmal by any standards of the industry, and from what I have seen aren't faster at all, there is just one to fix things that should never have made it to print and are all then forgotten about. Hell, I think GKs still have vindicators and predators according to their FAQ. The rest of that is all subjective, many of us don't think they have fixed 6th at all with 7th.

Also where is this prize support, I've not heard a word about it in years since, you know, GW themselves don't even run proper events anymore and it's all left to the individual managers to arrange prizes in their own store. Plus that stuff about store managers stealing it. I call BS on that whole statement, please provide some sort of evidence.

You then attack other posters again instead of their arguments. Not cool. Any don't bypass the swear filter, it is there for a reason.

And lastly no, our options are not 'shut up' if you don't play or 'stop complaining if you do, because you're still clearly loving it'.

Jancoran wrote:No. i told people who dont play to shut up...actually...

Which I still breaking Rule 1. Literally.



While I'm at it I'll ask again, was that sarcasm when you said you are a business man so you know more about the bitz seller at Masterminis?

Reply by: ausYenLoWang - click to view full reply 

68672

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 01:14:53

Post by: ausYenLoWang

 Musashi363 wrote:
7th edition is already winning players back?? LOL! Where in their finincial report would you find that empirical evidence?

late to this one but... wait a sec... you want 7th in the financial report? its PRE release was in it and thats it... it wasnt around to be in the damn report lol

Reply by: Blacksails - click to view full reply 

34243

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 01:21:27

Post by: Blacksails

 Jancoran wrote:


So now we're onto the "big words" phase. Okay boyo. Lets test your knowledge.

With that level of unnecessary condescension, I'd be surprised if anyone wants to discuss anything with you.

Reply by: jonolikespie - click to view full reply 

32159

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 01:26:33

Post by: jonolikespie

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
7th edition is already winning players back?? LOL! Where in their finincial report would you find that empirical evidence?

late to this one but... wait a sec... you want 7th in the financial report? its PRE release was in it and thats it... it wasnt around to be in the damn report lol

There was a week of sales as well as the preorders and the sales to trade customers. That all does make up a very significant portion of the total sales GW expects to see for any given product.

Reply by: TheKbob - click to view full reply 

53985

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 01:28:07

Post by: TheKbob

 Jancoran wrote:


So now we're onto the "big words" phase. Okay boyo. Lets test your knowledge.

What is the dividend a company gives when it makes zero dollars in profits? Great. What were the total dividends per shapre given out since 2010.

Get back to me and let me know what you find, smart guy.

I'm going to enjoy this.

Did I say I was an econ expert? Or are you narrowly trying to focus on one issue? Why not take it up in the actual thread discussing the matter if you're the smart one?

I know what dividends GW gave out in their last financial statement. Zero. Go read that thread and debate with the folks who have the finance knowledge that I research from, but then again they probably are just "know nothing liars" right?

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 01:33:30

Post by: Jancoran

 jonolikespie wrote:


For starters yes, this forum can handle serious discussions...They have also had EVIDENCE presented, something you have still failed to do.

Faster updates is good, but...

Also where is this prize support, I've not heard a word about it in years since, you know, GW themselves don't even run proper events anymore and it's all left to the individual managers to arrange prizes in their own store. Plus that stuff about store managers stealing it. I call BS on that whole statement, please provide some sort of evidence.

You then attack other posters again instead of their arguments. Not cool. Any don't bypass the swear filter, it is there for a reason.

And lastly no, our options are not 'shut up' if you don't play or 'stop complaining if you do, because you're still clearly loving it'.

While I'm at it I'll ask again, was that sarcasm when you said you are a business man so you know more about the bitz seller at Masterminis?

What Im hearing is a lack of knowledge. Let me enlighten you.

1. Games wroskshop provides $800 in prize support to a store each year when they are of a certain buying tier. That you dont KNOW this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Your lack of understanding is THE issue Im talking about.

2. You illustrate it FURTHER by demanding that I provide YOU evidence...a waste of time for me and an unnecessary step. I ALREADY told you what to look at. You just didn't do it. Go back and read. You don't need it from me; and me telling you isnt going to have the desirable effect this will. Before opening your mouth to argue something you arent equipped to, tell me what the dividend was since 2010 at GW. Just...you know...get back to me. I already know the answer. Google it if you dont know. Make sure you look all the way back and add them together. You'll Google it, you;ll find it. then you can go look at um...well almost any other stock. Tell me what theirs was. Lol. Yeah.

3. Im not insulting everyone. Just self righteous types who like to pretend they never insult anyone and also those who predict some colossal collapse in the next year or two. That's just dumb, and not based in ANY kind of reality. Im sorry you don't like hearing it. That you dont like hearing it doesn't make it less true.

4. And yes. I think I can claim more business savvy than some guy who has an internet guy who posts bitz for him. No offense to him, I love entrepreneurial spirit. But his post and more like it are missing ABSOLUTELY critical information. absolutely. And you are too.

If you knew business, you'd know, that you can lose a LOT of money and be better for it. Look up the operating profit of Amazon since it BEGAN. You'll be shocked. It's made nothing. Yes Amazon. Large Cap Growth Stock. what did you expect from a company that has done nothing but be a debt machine since it started?

And not only did GW NOT lose money but they also did NOT put themselves in a worse position moving forward. So some are busy selling that snake oil (such as online retailers who hate and fear the GW legal team), but I'm busy wondering why you don't understand THAT motivation to print crap like that?

If someone wants to have a SERIOUS convo about this, PM me and we can lose the grandstanding for public consumption act. Most of you are just trying to play the good guy role and thats fine. Itsa forum and people play little games like that. But when and if anyone here ACTUALLY wants to talk in good faith, I'll do it. Not here.

Also: no idea about what you're talking about on the filter. but whatever.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ausYenLoWang wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
7th edition is already winning players back?? LOL! Where in their finincial report would you find that empirical evidence?

late to this one but... wait a sec... you want 7th in the financial report? its PRE release was in it and thats it... it wasnt around to be in the damn report lol

Dont explain time continuums to him! Bad form.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


So now we're onto the "big words" phase. Okay boyo. Lets test your knowledge.

With that level of unnecessary condescension, I'd be surprised if anyone wants to discuss anything with you.

So you dont have an answer?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


So now we're onto the "big words" phase. Okay boyo. Lets test your knowledge.

What is the dividend a company gives when it makes zero dollars in profits? Great. What were the total dividends per shapre given out since 2010.

Get back to me and let me know what you find, smart guy.

I'm going to enjoy this.

Did I say I was an econ expert? Or are you narrowly trying to focus on one issue? Why not take it up in the actual thread discussing the matter if you're the smart one?

I know what dividends GW gave out in their last financial statement. Zero. Go read that thread and debate with the folks who have the finance knowledge that I research from, but then again they probably are just "know nothing liars" right?

this is so easy to look up. They gave one on JUNE 6 man! You're just so wrong. What else can I tell you?

Reply by: TheKbob - click to view full reply 

53985

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 01:40:01

Post by: TheKbob

All I see is raving. How about calmly posting your own facts and making a detailed argument. It seems like you actually have none and would rather go off on people quite rudely.

We're all wrong? Great! Prove it. Point to facts, lay it out. We have a whole thread about it:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/607499.page

And I'm not wrong. The post zero dividends on their annual financial report. They paid them specifically out of surplus cash, from the fifth page of the 2014 annual report:

Spoiler:

Dividends
We followed our principle of returning truly surplus cash to shareholders. Dividends of 16 pence per share were paid during the year
(£5.1 million).

Also from the report:

Spoiler:

Beyond next year, the business ought to be able to increase sales (single digit growth, not more) for many years and to provide owners
with a steady flow of dividends. I say ‘ought to’ because no plan survives contact with the enemy and we will not promise what we
cannot deliver — in particular our policy of only returning surplus cash as dividends will remain. We will not borrow (nor engage in fancy
financial engineering) to pay a coupon.
Nevertheless, with or without growth, I expect to see dividends. I am not planning to sell any of my shares.

Please let me know how a 42% reduction in profits with nearly across the board drop of revenue during the highest volume of releases to date to include poster boys and a new edition of their biggest game is a good indicator. Let me see the error of logic. And again, post it in that thread linked above if you think you're actually correct.

Reply by: motyak - click to view full reply 

47598

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 01:47:23

Post by: motyak

Ok, Rule 1 is actually important on this site. You all agreed to play by it, so please do so.

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 01:50:16

Post by: Jancoran

 TheKbob wrote:
All I see is raving. How about calmly posting your own facts and making a detailed argument. It seems like you actually have none and would rather go off on people quite rudely.

We're all wrong? Great! Prove it. Point to facts, lay it out. We have a whole thread about it:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/607499.page

And I'm not wrong. The post zero dividends on their annual financial report. They paid them specifically out of surplus cash, from the fifth page of the 2014 annual report:

Spoiler:

Dividends
We followed our principle of returning truly surplus cash to shareholders. Dividends of 16 pence per share were paid during the year
(£5.1 million).

Also from the report:

Spoiler:

Beyond next year, the business ought to be able to increase sales (single digit growth, not more) for many years and to provide owners
with a steady flow of dividends. I say ‘ought to’ because no plan survives contact with the enemy and we will not promise what we
cannot deliver — in particular our policy of only returning surplus cash as dividends will remain. We will not borrow (nor engage in fancy
financial engineering) to pay a coupon.
Nevertheless, with or without growth, I expect to see dividends. I am not planning to sell any of my shares.

Please let me know how a 42% in profits with nearly across the board drop of revenue during the highest volume of releases to date to include poster boys and a new edition of their biggest game is a good indicator. Let me see the error of logic. And again, post it in that thread linked above if you think you're actually correct.

June 6th. Dividend. YOU look it up. I gave you the ewxact date. And you know what? There will be another. Not shocking for a PROFITABLE company.

Reply by: TheKbob - click to view full reply 

53985

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 01:53:49

Post by: TheKbob

You just ignored the facts I posted and further didn't prove anything. Please stop being rude and posting trivial posts. If you want to continue this little squabble, again, trot on over to the linked thread, post your arguments there, and see if you can prove if you're right. Your arguments are to the contrary of all logic involved in the scenario, so be prepared to have actual evidence.

And for being so business savvy, you're failing to realize that being profitable doesn't mean you're strong just as you previously stated that not being profitable doesn't mean the company is failing. Though, comparing Amazon, a Web 2.0 giant, to that of Games Workshop is as laughable as Tom Kirby comparing himself to Steve Jobs. Have you actually read the annual financial report? Please tell me the business sense in not performing market research, for one.

Reply by: SHUPPET - click to view full reply 

77474

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:10:02

Post by: SHUPPET

 Jancoran wrote:
This forum is NOT equipped to deal with an in depth discussion of investments, It's not a place where we can possible plumb the depths of comparing this performance to say...anyone elses? No. This is not the place. Most people here glaze over when you explain how it all works and then respond with "nuh uh" or even worse, try to use big words. That's the worst, because honestly, people believe more stupid things for reasons that SOUND good than they ever do for GOOD SOUND reasons.

So instead of getting baited into an argument that this forum cant handle, and it cant, here's what I'll say instead.

This is unprecedented. it's what people asked for for more than a decade since the first Dark eldar codex dropped: "Faster Updates!" You got it. "More frequent FAQ's". You got it. "Fix 6E" You got it (to the extent any nerd will ever be happier about anything). "Models! More toys and BETTER toys!". You got it. "Kits I dont have to destroy to play as two versions of something". You got it. "Lower the points on over costed units". You got it (hell yeah you REALLY got it but as in all things its an economy of scale so all they did was really make you FEEL better about it and sell more models...kidos to them)

UNprecedented indeed. And there's more coming. They give stores Prize support in the new contract. Most shop owners greedily steal it (literally) and tell you "I contribute tables and shop space" if you dare ask for it. But some are above board and actually let TO's use it.

And they EVEN gave you online versions to buy. You dont have to. I HATE using electronic versions. But it's there.

You asked. they delivered. And we still cant stop being the whiney little beeaches we are about it because when it comes down to it, there will always be some d-bag whose out there hating (all the while cluttering up their shelves with it in a fit of HYPOCRICY).

If you don't play, shut up. If you do play, then you love the game so stop bitching. Neither group is going to crash GW this year so... Just stop.

Attitudes like this is what gives wargamers a bad name.

"I am right and you are wrong, If you quit the game and have reason for it completely on the subject, well that's not even worth acknowledging, you lost your stake in the game by quitting. If you do still play that means if you have any criticism your a whiny little hating douchebag who is a complete hypocrite for continuing to play in spite of these issues."

I've got no issue with people defending GW or people ragging on it, but sheesh... when you need to be so obnoxious to the extent that you have just blindly pushed everyone on the other side of the argument into one of two categories, and then expressed how neither group should be entitled to a voice or opinion, it's like... is this your ACTUAL standpoint on the matter? You believe that GW is great by "default" because EVERYONE with a possible argument against you have opinions that are so poorly conceived (due to no real hole in the opinion itself, just the description of the people stating it) that the people stating it should just be muted, and thus there is nothing left but positive to be said about GW proving you immeasurably right?

Some people in here are arguing your point of view intelligently. This breeds good discussion, and allows onlookers reading to form their own opinions based on responses and discussions to the holes in either argument. The quoted post is not one of these, instead trying to devolve an argument to a level that anyone with any stake in good discussion even those on your side) can not sensibly support. This isn't a forum of children in a schoolyard, where you beat up the guy you were arguing with so that he runs away and you can strut about after hes left convincing all the other kids how the lack of a current counter-argument means you are right. Most people on here are intelligent adults, hence the emphasis on open discussion around these parts.


SIDENOTE: There's plenty of multiplayer games I play that I don't love. Theres a social aspect to it and playing the jankiest cheapest game in the world with friends is worse than sitting home eating an orange by yourself just because "grumblegrumble rulesets! I want to have an opinion but I know if I play the game jancoran will tell me it's invalid because it means I love the game grumblegrumble"

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:12:21

Post by: Jancoran

 TheKbob wrote:
All I see is raving. How about calmly posting your own facts and making a detailed argument. It seems like you actually have none and would rather go off on people quite rudely.

Please let me know how a 42% reduction in profits with nearly across the board drop of revenue during the highest volume of releases to date to include poster boys and a new edition of their biggest game is a good indicator. Let me see the error of logic. And again, post it in that thread linked above if you think you're actually correct.

OK, since you asked o nicely (lol) I will explain it.

Profits are...profits. So the first thing is: they made one. Secondly: they made SIGNIFICANT investments. For example, my Contact Manager is an investment. I pay into her in order to get a return on my investment. But she is a cost. and like all overhead, she REDUCED my profits this year. What she ALSO does is creates a renewable income stream for me that, a year after I paid into that investment and sometimes 18 months after, I start to see a repeating return on work she did... A return I would NOT have seen had i NOT paid into her for 18 months. Now I lost money and it could take 24 months for the profits to pay me back before I make a TRUE profit. But cash flow wise, i have dramatically hellped myself much sooner. Cash flow is another issue. sometimes a business will do things to create immediate flow that is not actually profit. The money is coming In BUT only to justify the cost of creating the funnel as in my example. Sometimes that flow does nothing for you EXCEPT keep a valuable employee employed until a different part of the business can use her.

For example, My CSR is overhead, like all employees are. You dont want to hear it, but you are. She does not produce new business, but what she does for us adminstratively is critical. so she is not a PRODUCING overhead but she IS one we need. So we do certain things that even though they dont really create profit (ever) they do create enough FLOW so that she creates no drag on the system.

At some points a business has to invest in creating their income streams and renewing old ones or replacing ones that dont work anymore. Its just like changing parts out on a car. This is what GW did. they poured a ton of money into operations and cut costs where they could on stores to compensate but ultimately the change in strategy cost them money even though it REDUCED THEIR DRAG over the long term. So two things happen.

1. You lose profitability.
2. You can actually lose sales, as moneys are diverted from marketing to more core concerns (development has CLEARLY been their focus in the last 24 months)
3. Once this is done, you make money. Profits increase from reduced drag AND from now the income Streams you spent a ton of money creating.

Ive done this cycle three times in my own business and twice while running others. It's just a cycle. You p[lateau and then you HAVE to invest again. Its a necessary evil. When you do it you lose BOTH productivity (sales) and profits simultaneously. Its inevitable. Any biz owner can tell you if they've gone through a plateau. You just do. And like Amazon, you can loe money for a long time as long as the plan is solid and you can even create those pass through cash flow creators (or as retail calls them, loss leaders) in order to keep capacity up even when capacity isnt being used.

So in answer to your question, GW did EXACTLY this. they went into massive development mode AND cut their sales by getting rid of stores. those stores DID make sales. But they werre the pass through types. they were not :good calories" so to speak. So even though sales appeared lower, this was intentional. but with those sales losses they also removed drag and the new product, 7E is now allowing them to replace the sales without the overhead through the enthusiasm and increased engagement of people both returning to the hobby, renewing their interest in new armies and generally helping retailers offer prize support and other things.

GW has made so many mistakes. Im not telling you otherwise. THEY might not even tell you otherwise. But despite their gaffe's, they made money. They made money BEFORE 2010, but then dividends got much better after and the ups and downs of the STOCK does not reflect the actual dividend performance. The stock lost almost half its value a year after 6E came out. but. Made. A. Profit. and one can easily sayt 6E was their biggest mistake ever as a company. they survived it, corrected for it at great expense and are stronger for it. No wonder the CEO left though. Imagine buying that stock when it was in the 800's and now... Well at least there's dividends. Lol.

The stock price is perception, the dividends are the reality. I think GW has just a little further to go before they finish this plan of theirs and I DONT think that they will REALLY be done until January. I anticipate that is when the codex's will be out and the drain will be over with. Layoffs seem inevitable too once that production cue gets to its logical conclusion. We'll see.

But the idea that they will turn to mist is utter ridiculum based on no reality and it shouldnt take a post like this to explain that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:
You just ignored the facts I posted and further didn't prove anything. Please stop being rude and posting trivial posts. If you want to continue this little squabble, again, trot on over to the linked thread, post your arguments there, and see if you can prove if you're right. Your arguments are to the contrary of all logic involved in the scenario, so be prepared to have actual evidence.

And for being so business savvy, you're failing to realize that being profitable doesn't mean you're strong just as you previously stated that not being profitable doesn't mean the company is failing. Though, comparing Amazon, a Web 2.0 giant, to that of Games Workshop is as laughable as Tom Kirby comparing himself to Steve Jobs. Have you actually read the annual financial report? Please tell me the business sense in not performing market research, for one.

Of course I read it.

Reply by: jonolikespie - click to view full reply 

32159

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:16:22

Post by: jonolikespie

Alright I was all ready to continue this since I'm off sick today but TheKbob is right, if you want to continue this discussion you'll have to actually discuss it, preferably in the correct thread in Discussions rather than here, rather than continuing to act condescending towards everyone and just throwing out words.

This part I do have to touch on though for the benefit of anyone else reading as I'm not sure everyone who has seen the Future of Games Workshop articles understands this.

 Jancoran wrote:
4. And yes. I think I can claim more business savvy than some guy who has an internet guy who posts bitz for him. No offense to him, I love entrepreneurial spirit. But his post and more like it are missing ABSOLUTELY critical information. absolutely. And you are too.

I have no idea where you got the idea he has anything to do with bitz but I'd wager Michael Bartels has more buisness experience than you. This is from his very first article in the series:

And if you think "Who is this overweight, bold-headed, bearded hobo (that would be me), who thinks he can talk to me about the future of GD & GW", just a quick few lines about myself:

I have been #1 (HUEHUE) Games Workshop and Forge World fan-boy since 1991, when I set my foot into the GW store on Oxford Street, London. In my previous life I worked as the Global CIO of the ALDI Süd group, an international discount retailer with over 4000 stores worldwide. [according to wikipedia that is now actually over 8000 stores] Many of you know them. Now I 'retired' as a full-time nerd, age 42, working only for you . My hobby room holds about as much stock as a small GW store.

Reply by: Super Newb - click to view full reply 

69128

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:20:37

Post by: Super Newb

Boy, this thread went completely down the tubes didn't it.

Reply by: jonolikespie - click to view full reply 

32159

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:26:41

Post by: jonolikespie

Oh, I'll also put it out there that the only results I got from Google about that whole $800 prize support thing was a blog post or two from 2012 saying GW have cut off prize support and a tourney being advertised with $800 worth of prizes in the form of what must be coupons or something with no mention of it coming from GW.

Reply by: lliu - click to view full reply 

87301

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:27:35

Post by: lliu

Brace yourselves, the end is near battle-brothers.

Reply by: Jancoran - click to view full reply 

3314

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:29:36

Post by: Jancoran

 jonolikespie wrote:


I have been #1 (HUEHUE) Games Workshop and Forge World fan-boy since 1991, when I set my foot into the GW store on Oxford Street, London. In my previous life I worked as the Global CIO of the ALDI Süd group, an international discount retailer with over 4000 stores worldwide. [according to wikipedia that is now actually over 8000 stores] Many of you know them. Now I 'retired' as a full-time nerd, age 42, working only for you . My hobby room holds about as much stock as a small GW store.

 jonolikespie wrote:
Oh, I'll also put it out there that the only results I got from Google about that whole $800 prize support thing was a blog post or two from 2012 saying GW have cut off prize support and a tourney being advertised with $800 worth of prizes in the form of what must be coupons or something with no mention of it coming from GW.

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:33:27

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:33:46

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:35:07

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:51:59

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:52:18

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 02:54:07

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 03:00:20

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 03:00:24

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 03:11:04

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 03:12:31

 Sir Arun wrote:
I dont think there ever has been a time in the 25 year history of Warhammer 40k where two main army codexes were released in such short manner.

I once bought a single GW book at got four army lists. Was even under $20.

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 03:13:57

 Kojiro wrote:

 Sir Arun wrote:
I dont think there ever has been a time in the 25 year history of Warhammer 40k where two main army codexes were released in such short manner.

Spoiler:

I once bought a single GW book at got four army lists. Was even under $20.

I'm new to the game, but I once bought a single GW book and little did I know, I too got three army lists! And it was only $33.

Spoiler:

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 03:20:30

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/21 03:28:07

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Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/22 01:47:20

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Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/22 03:32:47

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/22 04:23:37

Shocker, but I say negative things about other companies from time to time. And in those discussion with fans, more or less what Accolade says "Yea, that sucks, I choose not to support that" or "yep, it's dumb, but I'm buying it."

It still doesn't make sense, but there's another layer of incredulity and denial in the Warhammer 40k community directly bred from the fission between gamers of different types. Usually other games are far more clear cut and attracts on audience in majority of a certain type or there's a lot less emotional bias spurred by massive sunk costs.

I also have a lot of positive to say about other game companies, but if you ever put liking another game or game company in the same post about something bad about Games Workshop, you're automatically a fanboy of the opposing game and/or company. It's essentially the same logic that goes into video game console wars, but the division isn't between consoles but within the very same game.

Spoiler:

PS:

/sarcasm

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/22 06:40:54

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/22 21:34:32

Unprecedented in the history of Warhammer 40k releases?  @ 2014/08/22 21:44:22