Paints will be going up 25 cents a pot
Hobby tools 3~10% up in price
Glue up 35 cents
Spray paints up $1.25 a can
Aegis defense line will be $37
Realm of battle board going up to $330
Realm of battle board imperalis $363 June 1st

This is accoriding to my flgs

Because you know, when the company is losing sales, the best thing to increase demand is raise prices!!!

(seriously, GW has no business sense, no idea who their customers are, or what they really sell.).

I don't doubt you but their hobby tools are already 2-3x thf price of every competitor.
The ruined imperialis board is not really a hot seller at $330 and Several major competitors boards or mats released. I kinda wanted one for a city fight themed board but even with 25% off online retailers at $330 base price ot was a stretch. Guess I'll stick with fat mats instead. Paints spray and aegis should be fine with the new prices. Thier glue has always been awful.

gungo wrote:
I I don't doubt you buy thier hobby tools are already 2-3x thf price of every competitor.
The ruined imperialis board is not really a hot seller at $330 and Several major competitors boards or mats released. I kinda wanted one for a city fight themed board but even with 25% off online retailers at $330 base price ot was a stretch. Guess I'll stick with fat mats instead.

Good points. Considering board 'alternatives' are getting better and better, you would think they would discount theirs.

The problem is the culture from the old leadership down - kirby thought they had no competition - he was very wrong.
Competition is anything his potential customers might spend their money and time on, not just other games - and with these prices and practices - I have seen a lot of friends drop, and the pace of new people join, slow considerably.

 Chute82 wrote:
Paints will be going up 25 cents a pot
Hobby tools 3~10% up in price
Glue up 35 cents
Spray paints up $1.25 a can
Aegis defense line will be $37
Realm of battle board going up to $330
Realm of battle board imperalis $363 June 1st

This is accoriding to my flgs

Hmmm lets see

Paint: I use valljeo so lel
Hobby tools: I dont use any of theirs so lel
Glue: roflmao... no
Spray Paints: Nope
ADL: While it kinda sucks that they are going up in price i dont really need another one so lel
RoBB and RoBBI: Was expensive already and now i really dont need to get one.

I can build a full 6'x6' board for cheaper so I was not going to buy theirs anyway. This just extended the 8' pole to a 10' pole that I wouldn't touch the Realm of Battle boards with.

About the only thing I bought, other than some models here and there, was the hobby materials; paints, primers, tools, etc. But I have been moving over to PP and Armypainter for the past year, this was the last push I needed to be completely past the GW line.

Anyo else think a 10% or so price rise will mean a 20% fall in profits on the upcoming financial report?

In response to a competitor making a cheaper modular plastic tile board, they raise the price of the one they have that doesn't sell.

Oh GW, you slay me.

Well you are wrong -Loki- Gw's closest competitors make pokemon games and playing cards and even that it's a passing thing. Who will remember Nintendo next year?

So Kirby said.
So say we all.

M.

By the power vested in my by...

I dunno, Lego maybe?

I do move this to the News and Rumors Section where all may gaze in wonder upon this great news!

Early GW-fan hottake:

GW appears to have hit rock bottom and continued digging.

Really?

GW Management: *shrugs* "Gotta raise prices on something, it's tradition."

wow this is beyond stupid

guess I'll go buy an aegis defense line next week

This is great news!

Now we all have extra incentive to try out new paint lines and hobby tools!

I am excited to see what other price increases our Plastic Liege will bestow upon us. We must be diligent, and pay the shortcomings of the heretics who have abandoned our great cause. For our Astromomicon runs not only on our souls, but by our cash is it sustained!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miguelsan wrote:
Well you are wrong -Loki- Gw's closest competitors make pokemon games and playing cards and even that it's a passing thing. Who will remember Nintendo next year?

So Kirby said.
So say we all.

M.

So we say.

I thought GW were done with the across-the-board price-increase nonsense in favour of just increasing the cost of each item as it was released?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought GW were done with the across-the-board price-increase nonsense in favour of just increasing the cost of each item as it was released?

I've always thought you've said it best: "The only pattern GW has is that they have no pattern" (or something similar to that effect )

Walmart acrylic paints .99 cents
Rustolium Spray can primer $3
superglue $3
Full army of Warzone Resurrection models $250

So suck it GW. You aren't the only game in town anymore.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I thought GW were done with the across-the-board price-increase nonsense in favour of just increasing the cost of each item as it was released?

I guess GW couldn't hold out until Codex: Paint Pot, and Codex: Sprue Cutter made their way into the rotation. Shame, I was so looking forward to the tournament breaking cheese those would bring.

These seem to be minor increases in a relatively specific categories.

But that they choose things like paint and hobby tools - where they are already far and away the most ridiculously overpriced choice in a fairly competitive field is baffling.

Reaper, Vallejo and P3 paints are all just as good (if not better) than GW paints - and they already clock in a good, what 30% cheaper per ounce?

Boy do the ArmyPainter Warpaints look better and better. Especially as I liked the old Coat D'Arms GW colors.

The great name change also really hurt, I mean if even a grey-breaded fan like has no @#$%ing idea what those colors mean, why would anyone seek out GW paints?

"If we don't raise prices regularly, how will we maintain our status as a premium luxury hobby?"

Keep digging GeeDub... Keep digging.

You still pay much less then we do.

You still pay much less then we do.

Can't really argue with that, though i like to think that GW turns their noses up at all of us equally at the thought of our grubby paws on such a premium product. God forbid those of us that like to talk about the "good old days" of the late 90's and very early 2000's.

Is anything else going up?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The great name change also really hurt, I mean if even a grey-breaded fan like has no @#$%ing idea what those colors mean, why would anyone seek out GW paints?

Yeah, I'm 100% anal retentive about paint names. Don't know why but I have this need that my Khaki is called something like that and not yxz799

M.

Thachng wrote:
Is anything else going up?

That's all the store posted on their Facebook page. If I find anything else out I will be sure to post it

I heard about the paint a while ago. Already have 2 ADL and an Imperialis board, so not really a biggie. But why ever did they increase the price of ADL? O.o

 Talys wrote:
I heard about the paint a while ago. Already have 2 ADL and an Imperialis board, so not really a biggie. But why ever did they increase the price of ADL? O.o

I remember buying 3 aegis lines in the closing days of 5th to make rifleman dreds. I dont think i paid more than 15 bucks per kit.

It is amazing watching GW digging their own grave with a garden trowel, inch by inch, year by year.

 Talys wrote:
I heard about the paint a while ago. Already have 2 ADL and an Imperialis board, so not really a biggie. But why ever did they increase the price of ADL? O.o

I suppose they have an upcoming Space Marine base detachment that require you get an ADL
No love for fortifications in these days of formations within formations. Perhaps they will fix that -agressively.

 Cruentus wrote:

I guess GW couldn't hold out until Codex: Paint Pot, and Codex: Sprue Cutter made their way into the rotation. Shame, I was so looking forward to the tournament breaking cheese those would bring.

Nah, but wait until you see Codex: D Hammer. 15 pages hardback for $99. The army consists of a detachment of 1-"how ever many you please" Hammers that each strike 1d6 (to keep the random tradition alive) enemy units during your turn. People using this codex will make G-Dubs life better by forcing people to replace their smashed models at a rapid rate. The Hammer itself will consist of whatever they find in the back Dumpster, then spray painted white. Each for the simple premium of $159 (you know, so they fit in with other LOW and knights)

Or maybe Codex: I win? Flip a coin, win on heads
GW coin model costs $50, all are recycled pennies

 Fayric wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I heard about the paint a while ago. Already have 2 ADL and an Imperialis board, so not really a biggie. But why ever did they increase the price of ADL? O.o

I suppose they have an upcoming Space Marine base detachment that require you get an ADL
No love for fortifications in these days of formations within formations. Perhaps they will fix that -agressively.

You could be right! It might be upcoming with AM, too.

We play with tons of scenery/fortifications. Sometimes, it's just to look pretty (a Basilica Administratum is just a building and a source of cover, for example), but a lot of stuff like Wall of Martyrs is highly functional and great for scenario-building.

You know, they could **really** buff AM (who can use some real love) by adding a 0-5 fortification Auxiliary into a Decurion/warhost style setup. And heck, all the fortification pieces are already have imperial eagles everywhere

 shasolenzabi wrote:
It is amazing watching GW digging their own grave with a garden trowel, inch by inch, year by year.

Another hundred years or so and they'll be kaput!

I've never seen a forum so full of financial experts

As with most on here it's mainly stuff I don't use, although the new brushes are very good so might grab one or two this week.

Another price increase?[i]

Just in case there was anyone left still buying this stuff....

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I've never seen a forum so full of financial experts

As with most on here it's mainly stuff I don't use, although the new brushes are very good so might grab one or two this week.

I am looking forward to their financial report showing that the loss of revenue is all good news!

Meh, not really anything vital there except the paint but I have enough of that at this point.

I must confess to have bought a pair of their clippers recently and they are fething brilliant (seriously better than any clippers I have bought and broken before) but they were steep before not sure about now.

Well in 2013/2014 GW suffered a 11.09 million pounds decline in sale wiping out the two previous years which were increased sales.

I have it on good authority that GW is bleeding 1.1 million pounds per 4 weeks in declining sales since the last full year financial report. GW is expected to announce a further 14.4 million pounds in decreased sales.

You gotta love GW a gift that keeps on giving

 notprop wrote:
Meh, not really anything vital there except the paint but I have enough of that at this point.

I must confess to have bought a pair of their clippers recently and they are fething brilliant (seriously better than any clippers I have bought and broken before) but they were steep before not sure about now.

Yeah I got a pair of those, was suprised at how good they were.

I know a few ways they can turn their fortunes around:

-more limited editions for codex and supplements!
-a new edition of 40k!
-wedding after wedding after wedding!

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I've never seen a forum so full of financial experts

I know you're joking but there are a couple actually, not to mention the boys over at painting Buddha and their lovely little series of articles about the future of games workshop.

I don't mind these specific price raises, i have a lot of paint and also use other paints (Valleyo) for many projects.
I do use and like the spray-cans though...

But it is not good news at all.
It implies that GW has not found a way to stay in the game instead of raising prices, which is the way to get out of the game.
The animo for GW games and miniatures/models is the lowest i have seen in more than 15 years.

I live in the Netherlands a.k.a. Holland and play since about 1990, when it more or less started.
It started small, but around 2000 GW was a lot bigger here in the wargaming community than it is now.

And i hear only one complaint from everyone that quits or does not (re-)start: the prices, the cost.

 jonolikespie wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I've never seen a forum so full of financial experts

I know you're joking but there are a couple actually, not to mention the boys over at painting Buddha and their lovely little series of articles about the future of games workshop.

You mean the guys who just auctioned off tons of their private stuff in a desperate bid to keep their own failing business afloat for another month or so?

 Achaylus72 wrote:
Well in 2013/2014 GW suffered a 11.09 million pounds decline in sale wiping out the two previous years which were increased sales.

I have it on good authority that GW is bleeding 1.1 million pounds per 4 weeks in declining sales since the last full year financial report. GW is expected to announce a further 14.4 million pounds in decreased sales.

You gotta love GW a gift that keeps on giving

When do the stocks start falling?

In consideration though most of the item listed are probably outsourced (not ADL, but probably the RoB boards which I suspect are made by subcontractors?). These will be minor sellers that are more susceptible to inflation.

By which I mean to say at least this rise isn't on the main ranges that people actually buy!

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
By the power vested in my by...

I dunno, Lego maybe?

I do move this to the News and Rumors Section where all may gaze in wonder upon this great news!

GW raising prices is hardly news.

Fortunately, I'm impervious to them all.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The great name change also really hurt, I mean if even a grey-breaded fan like has no @#$%ing idea what those colors mean, why would anyone seek out GW paints?

Some of them are nice. The main difference is that for years now the GW paints have been a supplement to my Vallejo and AP/CDA/etc rather than the other way 'round, and the new range has just firmed up that situation


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The great name change also really hurt, I mean if even a grey-breaded fan like has no @#$%ing idea what those colors mean, why would anyone seek out GW paints?

Yeah, I'm 100% anal retentive about paint names. Don't know why but I have this need that my Khaki is called something like that and not yxz799

Hey!

IG-88 is one of my favourite Citadel colours these days! I just bought two more!

 Radiation wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
Well in 2013/2014 GW suffered a 11.09 million pounds decline in sale wiping out the two previous years which were increased sales.

I have it on good authority that GW is bleeding 1.1 million pounds per 4 weeks in declining sales since the last full year financial report. GW is expected to announce a further 14.4 million pounds in decreased sales.

You gotta love GW a gift that keeps on giving

When do the stocks start falling?

They did. It was announced in the last report and GAW stock dropped but has recovered to a certain extent. Ultimately GW remains a profitable company that has cut its cloth accordingly. Next report but one should make interesting reading, I find I hard to reconcile reduced sales when GW have released some of their best model kits for a decade.

 notprop wrote:
They did. It was announced in the last report and GAW stock dropped but has recovered to a certain extent. Ultimately GW remains a profitable company that has cut its cloth accordingly. Next report but one should make interesting reading, I find I hard to reconcile reduced sales when GW have released some of their best model kits for a decade.

So what you're saying is:




Such optimism in the face of such evidence.

I feel as though GW doesn't realise that demand is not quite the problem...even at their astronomical prices people still buy their stuff.

So how about they cut production costs or increase productivity to make it cheaper and increase supply, the demand is already there and is strong, just not quite so at those prices.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The great name change also really hurt, I mean if even a grey-breaded fan like has no @#$%ing idea what those colors mean, why would anyone seek out GW paints?

Some of them are nice. The main difference is that for years now the GW paints have been a supplement to my Vallejo and AP/CDA/etc rather than the other way 'round, and the new range has just firmed up that situation


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The great name change also really hurt, I mean if even a grey-breaded fan like has no @#$%ing idea what those colors mean, why would anyone seek out GW paints?

Yeah, I'm 100% anal retentive about paint names. Don't know why but I have this need that my Khaki is called something like that and not yxz799

Hey!

IG-88 is one of my favourite Citadel colours these days! I just bought two more!

As above I don't have the slightest idea what color is that one. But then I neither know what shade is The Fang supposed to be.

M.

And I too still buy their miniatures.
I love all the recent 40k models, but i am glad that i already have most armies, so i can add new detachments, not build new armies all the time, because i don't have enough money for that.

And the price per model for GW units is not even that high compared to most competitors. And no competitor has sprus with so many options, great stuff for people who like converting etc.

As always with these threads, it falls upon me to remind people of the wisdom of Kirby:

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?"

People have been predicting GW's death for years, but like a tapeworm in the colon, they cling on.

We'll be back in ten years having this discussion. Yes, their business model is a mess, and they're losing money like there's no tomorrow.

But never underestimate GW's durability.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 notprop wrote:
They did. It was announced in the last report and GAW stock dropped but has recovered to a certain extent. Ultimately GW remains a profitable company that has cut its cloth accordingly. Next report but one should make interesting reading, I find I hard to reconcile reduced sales when GW have released some of their best model kits for a decade.

So what you're saying is:




Such optimism in the face of such evidence.

Evidence of what pray tell?

Inflation is the way of things in the global economy, indeed it is desired or are you happy for wages to stagnate?

You must be very creative to see optimism in that statement.

The reality is that an investor will see a company with failing sales but profitability as one that may be likely to recover. If that company is making good product and they are IMO (Knights, AD Mech, FW for example) ordinarily you might expect them to turn things around at some point.

Or are you telling me that all is doomed because a few quid pot of paint will cost me a few pence more?

 notprop wrote:
Inflation is the way of things in the global economy, indeed it is desired or are you happy for wages to stagnate?

The reason wage increases are good is not because you have a bigger number next to the dollar sign, it's because it increases your buying power. Inflation does not increase your buying power, it decreases it: it makes you pay more for goods and services, which means you need to get a pay rise just to keep up. If you want the good kind of wage increase - the sort that actually lets you buy more stuff - you need improved efficiency, not inflation. If you become more efficient at turning time into resources - whether by making more things faster, making better things, or by using less stuff to make those things - then you can better convert your work week into the goods and services you want to buy.

 notprop wrote:
Or are you telling me that all is doomed because a few quid pot of paint will cost me a few pence more?

What he's saying is that this....

 notprop wrote:
Next report but one should make interesting reading, I find I hard to reconcile reduced sales when GW have released some of their best model kits for a decade.

....has been happening for at least 12 months and key metrics are still heavily in decline.

There's no objective reason to believe that the current 6-month reporting period will be any different to the three that proceeded it.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 notprop wrote:
Inflation is the way of things in the global economy, indeed it is desired or are you happy for wages to stagnate?

The reason wage increases are good is not because you have a bigger number next to the dollar sign, it's because it increases your buying power. Inflation does not increase your buying power, it decreases it: it makes you pay more for goods and services, which means you need to get a pay rise just to keep up. If you want the good kind of wage increase - the sort that actually lets you buy more stuff - you need improved efficiency, not inflation. If you become more efficient at turning time into resources - whether by making more things faster, making better things, or by using less stuff to make those things - then you can better convert your work week into the goods and services you want to buy.

I can't speak directly to Australia, but in North America and Europe, over the last 30 years median wages have not nearly kept up with inflation. The buying power of an hour's work for unskilled labour has tanked and the buying power of skilled labour has flagged significantly. On the other hand, the purchasing power of highly skilled labour, specialist positions, and upper management has skyrocketed by orders if magnitude.

In most companies, prices are raised, wage increases are doled out, and then jobs are cut as efficiencies are found or work is outsourced.

The price increases of GW product can be blamed on GW, but taking a macro view (from 1985 - 2015), GW product prices really aren't very much more than the rate of Inflation. But most people can afford less now than then (in general), and that is not GW's fault. .

It's not GWs fault that in general people can afford less. However, if they expect to sell things to people who can afford less, they'll either need to price it competitively, or increase the quality of the product (rules, looking at you here...) or people will stop buying.

 Chute82 wrote:
Paints will be going up 25 cents a pot
Hobby tools 3~10% up in price
Glue up 35 cents
Spray paints up $1.25 a can
Aegis defense line will be $37
Realm of battle board going up to $330
Realm of battle board imperalis $363 June 1st

This is accoriding to my flgs

Hm...lets see.

Paint - Mostly use Valejo nowadays. Any GW paint I still have will just be used up and replaced by valejo alternative.
Hobby tools - got the big Citadel toolcase thrown in effectively for free with an ebay auction because I asked nicely. No damand there.
Glue - I use 1€ superglue. Get 5 tubes (1-2 ml each I think) that last me for ages.
Spray paints - huh, guess I'll see if I can get the spray cans from competitors now...? Got a big batch of DKoK waiting to be primed, let's see if army painter has something like dark grey...
ADL - uuh... okay?
Battleboard - because I'll definitely want to spend 300+€ on stuff I can build myself for a fraction of the price. May not look all that professional, but if it saves me 250 bucks im not omplaining.

The Army Painter sprays are great, I use them for everything bar WW2 where I use Plastic Soldier Company for the more appropriate colours.

 ImAGeek wrote:
It's not GWs fault that in general people can afford less. However, if they expect to sell things to people who can afford less, they'll either need to price it competitively, or increase the quality of the product (rules, looking at you here...) or people will stop buying.

We'll see soon what the rules are going to cost once WHFB 9th edition drops sometime this year. My guess it's going to cost $100 for the brb.

So yesterday I was on the phone with my GW rep. Since I own a business I'll share how this price increase affects me. Most of my products are discounted, most GW is by 10% (some competition within an hour away does 25%) So my first thought with paint increase was maybe I could keep it at $4.00. NOPE they increased my cost by .66 cents! WTF thats not even 55% of the cost anymore. If I keep it at $4.00 I'd only make around .50 Cents of profit per pot of paint. So unfortunately I have to increase the price to $4.25. So last night I started telling my customers to pick up as much GW paint as you can afford cause it will go up in price. So as I read this forum this morning something clicked in my head. Maybe this increase is to spike sales. Think about it, if you know something is going to go up in price and you kinda wanted it, wouldn't you buy as much as you can before it does? Now is the time and such. Anyways.

So effects on a young Business.
Paints: not my biggest seller since most customers buy my Reaper or Valejo line. Washes and Metallics are really the only pots that sale.
Tools: Army painter is cheaper and you can go to Hobby Lobby.
Brushes: HA! no one touches GW's. They buy reaper or go to Hobby Lobby.
Tables: I have 8' x 4" tables so wouldn't work, plus most people in DFW like the roll out mats.
Glue: neh not really bought, except by gw fan boys. GF9 and P3 are cheaper and same level. I never owned any GW glue till I opened up a store.
Spray Paint: Army Painter does the job.

So what hasn't been selling will continue not to sell, except for GW fan boys picking up what they don't have right before the price increase. The sting is the increase cost to the owners that is way more than the actual increase cost of the item.

So you could argue stop carrying GW. Look up Lonestar Comics. They had nine large locations in DFW. Several years ago the owner told GW he wanted a better discount, that he shouldn't have to keep paying such an increase of cost to his business. GW of course said no. He claimed if he didn't carry it GW would die in DFW. Hindsight it kinda did but not from that issue alone. So Lonestar Comics stopped carrying GW. They then took it a step to far and kicked out the GW players, if they didn't sell it, you couldn't play it there. 2 years ago Lonestar Comics closed all its doors and sold its inventory and lease to two different companies. Even my store is next to where a Lonestar Comics use to be.

 FSWG wrote:

So you could argue stop carrying GW. Look up Lonestar Comics. They had nine large locations in DFW. Several years ago the owner told GW he wanted a better discount, that he shouldn't have to keep paying such an increase of cost to his business. GW of course said no. He claimed if he didn't carry it GW would die in DFW. Hindsight it kinda did but not from that issue alone. So Lonestar Comics stopped carrying GW. They then took it a step to far and kicked out the GW players, if they didn't sell it, you couldn't play it there. 2 years ago Lonestar Comics closed all its doors and sold its inventory and lease to two different companies. Even my store is next to where a Lonestar Comics use to be.

Conversely look at miniaturemarket.com. So, yeah...

Conversely look at miniaturemarket.com. So, yeah...

No worries, I don't use any of this anyway.

So is this in Discussions because it's not news?


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Someone moved the thread!

sucks there paint is going up in price. I use badger most of the time but i still like using there paint as well.

I'd expect sales to fall again this year. I love the Adeptus Mech like a second cousin (seriously I've been waiting for this army since like 1994) but Adeptus Mech alone (even with the 2-3 codex shennanigans) can't possibly make up for the implosion of Fantasy and the disintigration of LotR/Hobbit sales.

I mean GW is pulling every short term trick they can to pump up 40k sales, a new edition after 2 years?? A new SM codex and Eldar codex after 2 years??

Unless the new Fantasy manages to catch or exceed the previous editions' sales they're in real trouble.

They'll pump up fantasy too it seems with 3 different variants, each sold seperately. So either Fantasy players will have to pay up...

Or drop out.

And the answer to that will decide if GW survives.

malfred wrote:So is this in Discussions because it's not news?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Someone moved the thread!

Do try to keep up old man.

the only thing this will affect me on is the technical paints, which are the only new ones i buy anyway.

privateer4hire wrote:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
It is amazing watching GW digging their own grave with a garden trowel, inch by inch, year by year.

Another hundred years or so and they'll be kaput!

No, no, no! In another hundred years they've dug enough to wind up in New Zealand, they'll wind up in the loo at Battlefront Miniatures and yell "Brothers!!!"...

I'm curious if this is all or that there is more that is going up in price. Also curious whether this will also affect the UK and/or EU.

GW paint €3,20
Zombicide Armypainter paint €2,75
Vallejo paint €2,25

Honestly, the more expensive GW paint isn't that much of an issue if I need a specific color from GW, but I won't be buying the entire range (already bought the two Vallejo air brush ranges).

Realms of Battle getting more expensive is a pain imho, but that gives Tablescapes more of an opportunity to penetrate the market here in Europe... But the old RoB board is currently at discount cheaper then the Tablescapes tiles at discount (inc. shipping). The new one isn't, but not enough to make a huge difference (~10%).

 ImAGeek wrote:
It's not GWs fault that in general people can afford less. However, if they expect to sell things to people who can afford less, they'll either need to price it competitively, or increase the quality of the product (rules, looking at you here...) or people will stop buying.

It's not that people can afford less, they clearly have got money to spend... they're just not buying GW. Other companies are growing all over, this is not a shrinking market.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I've never seen a forum so full of financial experts

As with most on here it's mainly stuff I don't use, although the new brushes are very good so might grab one or two this week.

I don't know about others but I'm in charge of about the annual revenue of GW as part of my day-to-day. Really, think about it; at some point the only people that will be able to afford GW products are people like me with fairly robust incomes.

I remember buying a whole squad of 5 metal Howling Banshees in a blister pack for $7.99

Those were the days.

ARE YOU FETHING KIDDING ME?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Oh no, oh no, there's NO WAY This can be right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope this does not follow through.

 Radiation wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
Well in 2013/2014 GW suffered a 11.09 million pounds decline in sale wiping out the two previous years which were increased sales.

I have it on good authority that GW is bleeding 1.1 million pounds per 4 weeks in declining sales since the last full year financial report. GW is expected to announce a further 14.4 million pounds in decreased sales.

You gotta love GW a gift that keeps on giving

When do the stocks start falling?

When they are unable to pay dividends and the institutional investors, which own a majority of the shares, decide to bail.

 agnosto wrote:

 Radiation wrote:

 Achaylus72 wrote:
Well in 2013/2014 GW suffered a 11.09 million pounds decline in sale wiping out the two previous years which were increased sales.

I have it on good authority that GW is bleeding 1.1 million pounds per 4 weeks in declining sales since the last full year financial report. GW is expected to announce a further 14.4 million pounds in decreased sales.

You gotta love GW a gift that keeps on giving

When do the stocks start falling?

When they are unable to pay dividends and the institutional investors, which own a majority of the shares, decide to bail.

which then brings the BIG question: Are they gonna shut down if they don't get good sales out of this?

 Grimtuff wrote:

 FSWG wrote:

So you could argue stop carrying GW. Look up Lonestar Comics. They had nine large locations in DFW. Several years ago the owner told GW he wanted a better discount, that he shouldn't have to keep paying such an increase of cost to his business. GW of course said no. He claimed if he didn't carry it GW would die in DFW. Hindsight it kinda did but not from that issue alone. So Lonestar Comics stopped carrying GW. They then took it a step to far and kicked out the GW players, if they didn't sell it, you couldn't play it there. 2 years ago Lonestar Comics closed all its doors and sold its inventory and lease to two different companies. Even my store is next to where a Lonestar Comics use to be.

Conversely look at miniaturemarket.com. So, yeah...

You mean the company that doesn't sell GW?

 lord marcus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 FSWG wrote:

So you could argue stop carrying GW. Look up Lonestar Comics. They had nine large locations in DFW. Several years ago the owner told GW he wanted a better discount, that he shouldn't have to keep paying such an increase of cost to his business. GW of course said no. He claimed if he didn't carry it GW would die in DFW. Hindsight it kinda did but not from that issue alone. So Lonestar Comics stopped carrying GW. They then took it a step to far and kicked out the GW players, if they didn't sell it, you couldn't play it there. 2 years ago Lonestar Comics closed all its doors and sold its inventory and lease to two different companies. Even my store is next to where a Lonestar Comics use to be.

Conversely look at miniaturemarket.com. So, yeah...

You mean the company that doesn't sell GW?

The company that does not sell GW is a company that GW probably does not know about.

That time of year already? I could practically mark it on my calendar by now. 'June. GW Price Increase'.

GW:



Man, am I so glad I got off that carousel.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
GW:



Man, am I so glad I got off that carousel.

Uh, what?

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:


Uh, what?

The ride never ends. (he is saying he got out of GW stuff)

This is good news.

Every time I buy Vallejo I can feel even more smug.

 Riquende wrote:
This is good news.

Every time I buy Vallejo I can feel even more smug.

How is this Good News???

I love GW.

ORicK wrote:
And the price per model for GW units is not even that high compared to most competitors.

Untrue.

Unless all the "most competitors" you know is Privateer Press.

Virtually everyone else is producing

a) high-quality resin models that are priced the same or a bit higher than GW plastics.
b) models cheaper than GW.

I swear watching GW is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
Their hobby supplies were already ridiculously expensive, far far higher than their competition.
"We're already bat gak crazy, might as well just go all the way!" - GW.

 lord marcus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 FSWG wrote:

So you could argue stop carrying GW. Look up Lonestar Comics. They had nine large locations in DFW. Several years ago the owner told GW he wanted a better discount, that he shouldn't have to keep paying such an increase of cost to his business. GW of course said no. He claimed if he didn't carry it GW would die in DFW. Hindsight it kinda did but not from that issue alone. So Lonestar Comics stopped carrying GW. They then took it a step to far and kicked out the GW players, if they didn't sell it, you couldn't play it there. 2 years ago Lonestar Comics closed all its doors and sold its inventory and lease to two different companies. Even my store is next to where a Lonestar Comics use to be.

Conversely look at miniaturemarket.com. So, yeah...

You mean the company that doesn't sell GW?

Indeed.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Riquende wrote:
This is good news.

Every time I buy Vallejo I can feel even more smug.

How is this Good News???

I love GW.

And? Means nothing to me who loves GW, more fool them. GW are a company, not your family.

Disappointed in the spray can increases, use them regularly. Rest is shrug, does anyone honestly buy gw glue?

And isnt it possible the price increases are due to material and input costs rather than a moneygrab. The products are non model afterall bar the robg.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

The company that does not sell GW is a company that GW probably does not know about.

Only because they don't research the market.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 lord marcus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 FSWG wrote:

So you could argue stop carrying GW. Look up Lonestar Comics. They had nine large locations in DFW. Several years ago the owner told GW he wanted a better discount, that he shouldn't have to keep paying such an increase of cost to his business. GW of course said no. He claimed if he didn't carry it GW would die in DFW. Hindsight it kinda did but not from that issue alone. So Lonestar Comics stopped carrying GW. They then took it a step to far and kicked out the GW players, if they didn't sell it, you couldn't play it there. 2 years ago Lonestar Comics closed all its doors and sold its inventory and lease to two different companies. Even my store is next to where a Lonestar Comics use to be.

Conversely look at miniaturemarket.com. So, yeah...

You mean the company that doesn't sell GW?

The company that does not sell GW is a company that GW probably does not know about.

They sold GW stuff up to about a year and half ago

GW Just sent me this:

Hello [my real name here]

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. We have not been made aware of any changes happening in June.

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.



Games Workshop
North America Customer Services

Curious.

 Korinov wrote:

ORicK wrote:
And the price per model for GW units is not even that high compared to most competitors.

Untrue.

Unless all the "most competitors" you know is Privateer Press.

Virtually everyone else is producing

a) high-quality resin models that are priced the same or a bit higher than GW plastics.
b) models cheaper than GW.

This, so much. You have to get out of the blinkered view of 'the competition' consisting of the other handful of premium-price sf/f manufacturers (which call for a far smaller count of expensive minis in their games anyway) when a lot of other companies producing plastics sell them for about 50p a figure, and even a lot of metal minis sell for as much or less than GW plastics.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
GW Just sent me this:

Hello [my real name here]

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. We have not been made aware of any changes happening in June.

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.



Games Workshop
North America Customer Services

Curious.

It would help us if you posted what you sent them, you know, for context.

I'm guessing it was a question about the price increase, but for future posts, just posting a reply with no context doesn't exactly tell us much.

On topic, I've used the GW sprays for some time, but I recently bought some army painter instead for the wider colour assortment. I already have an ADL, so I'm set there. Still funny watching the annual price increase.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
GW Just sent me this:

Hello [my real name here]

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. We have not been made aware of any changes happening in June.

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.



Games Workshop
North America Customer Services

Curious.

That's because June is 2 weeks away. Not close enough yet.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:


which then brings the BIG question: Are they gonna shut down if they don't get good sales out of this?

I don't expect so, anytime soon. GW's in a nearly textbook death spiral as a company but there are always ways to pull out of these things or prolong the sometimes inevitable crash and burn. I fully expect this report to mirror the previous 3 reports and show a large and increasing loss of revenue, year on year but that the company will maintain a facade of health due to all the previous years' cost-cutting and efficiency improvements. My warning is that those days are done; GW has trimmed all of the corporate fat possible and all that's left is cutting bone (core elements of the business).

GW will pay a dividend if it is remotely possible to do so, because the people in charge are fully aware that the semblance of profitability combined with a healthy return to investors is the only thing that's shoring up their share price.

If they are unable to pay a dividend, those large, institutional investors will begin looking at the actual health of the company and the end result will likely make the January 2014 sell-off look like a cake walk.

So, what happens in the worst-case scenario of weak stock? The obvious result is it starts to make GW an attractive target for a hostile takeover if any large companies are shopping.

 Riquende wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Riquende wrote:
This is good news.

Every time I buy Vallejo I can feel even more smug.

How is this Good News???

I love GW.

And? Means nothing to me who loves GW, more fool them. GW are a company, not your family.

Ouch! Bit harsh, but... yeah, agreed with the last bit. Don't get too attached to them, Badrukk. Take at least a look at other games. (Not just Warmachine and Infinity, either) GW might seem like the be-all, end-all to you now, but it'll help not to be too dependent on them when the novelty eventually fades. (After they have a bunch more price increases and so on. )

I skipped a page, but we're basing this all on what one person's store is saying? They could just be, I dunno, wrong.

 agnosto wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:


which then brings the BIG question: Are they gonna shut down if they don't get good sales out of this?

I don't expect so, anytime soon. GW's in a nearly textbook death spiral as a company but there are always ways to pull out of these things or prolong the sometimes inevitable crash and burn. I fully expect this report to mirror the previous 3 reports and show a large and increasing loss of revenue, year on year but that the company will maintain a facade of health due to all the previous years' cost-cutting and efficiency improvements. My warning is that those days are done; GW has trimmed all of the corporate fat possible and all that's left is cutting bone (core elements of the business).

GW will pay a dividend if it is remotely possible to do so, because the people in charge are fully aware that the semblance of profitability combined with a healthy return to investors is the only thing that's shoring up their share price.

If they are unable to pay a dividend, those large, institutional investors will begin looking at the actual health of the company and the end result will likely make the January 2014 sell-off look like a cake walk.

So, what happens in the worst-case scenario of weak stock? The obvious result is it starts to make GW an attractive target for a hostile takeover if any large companies are shopping.

People have been saying GW is in a death spiral for like a decade now. At this rate the spiral will end when I'm too old to paint anymore.

 Vermis wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

ORicK wrote:
And the price per model for GW units is not even that high compared to most competitors.

Untrue.

Unless all the "most competitors" you know is Privateer Press.

Virtually everyone else is producing

a) high-quality resin models that are priced the same or a bit higher than GW plastics.
b) models cheaper than GW.

This, so much. You have to get out of the blinkered view of 'the competition' consisting of the other handful of premium-price sf/f manufacturers (which call for a far smaller count of expensive minis in their games anyway) when a lot of other companies producing plastics sell them for about 50p a figure, and even a lot of metal minis sell for as much or less than GW plastics.

It doesn't make sense to compare GW models with anyone other than scifi-fantasy miniature manufacturers. Who cares what the price of a WW2 infantryman costs, or a civil war dude with a bayonet, or a SR-71 scale model or a bi-plane. Or a catamaran or man-o-war, for that matter. These things appeals to a totally different audience.

Without discussing quality and aesthetic, since these are highly personal and subjective in nature, Mantic and Reaper sell reasonably complete scifi/fantasy miniatures at prices that are cheaper than GW. Infinity sells a small but high quality line of infantry-sized miniatures that are price-competitive, but not cheaper, than GW. Privateer Press sells a reasonably complete line of miniatures that are as expensive or more expensive than GW. DUST is kind of incomplete, and has little model variety.

The other companies that produce scifi/fantasy can't really compete with GW in the breadth or depth from a modelling perspective. They just don't have a collection that you can really dig into. I'm not saying that there aren't good companies that have some great models; but if your thing is modelling futuristic armies with some reasonable variety of troops, vehicles, and stompy robots, the options are very limited. Guys like Anvil Industries are great, but you can't really build something substantial with them.

Also: HIPS is generally the most desirable material for hobby now, not metal. Producing metal minis is great for nostalgia, and single-piece metal makes it easy to paint, but for modelling purposes, HIPS is vastly superior to white metal. Plus, good luck trying to build something like an Imperial Knight (a 200+ piece kit), made out of metal. If you don't like kits that are 75-300 pieces that take a lot of time and care to build, stay away from GW for any sort of gaming, because every current, major faction has them (I'm not including Sisters or Inquisition or Assassins...), and practically requires them to play an averageish game, casual or otherwise.

Also, many people who have the hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands of hours to throw at hobby necessary to build such armies to resemble anything remotely like GW's vision of what a table should look like will also often have significant disposable income. Obviously, GW is catering to them, at the expense of customers who wish, for example, to just buy a few models and play a game.

Requizen wrote:
I skipped a page, but we're basing this all on what one person's store is saying? They could just be, I dunno, wrong.

On page 3 there is a store owner who talks about the price increase. If you still don't believe us wait till June

 Talys wrote:


I'm not saying that there aren't good companies that have some great models; but if your thing is modelling futuristic armies with some reasonable variety of troops, vehicles, and stompy robots, the options are very limited.

Um.....not sure that's exactly true.



Not sci-fi but...

Oh, GW will have an easy fix to prevent jumping ship:

- Sprues will have a weird dogleg at each connection to a part and you will need their special side cutters to trim the parts off safely.

- GW will change the plastics to a new "'Ard Carapace (tm)" plastic that is impervious to bonding of traditional glues but their "'Ard Bond (tm)" glue is the only one specially formulated to work.

- Oddly only their primer "'Ard Cover (tm)" will stick to the plastic as well.

I see a bright quarter for GW with the coming changes...

Curious to see the impact of WFB and LOTR on the report... Not sure if 40k can take it all even with such aggressive agenda.

 Talizvar wrote:
Oh, GW will have an easy fix to prevent jumping ship:

- Sprues will have a weird dogleg at each connection to a part and you will need their special side cutters to trim the parts off safely.

Why not just make that "Ard Carapace" plastic only cuttable by their new clippers?

 -Loki- wrote:
In response to a competitor making a cheaper modular plastic tile board, they raise the price of the one they have that doesn't sell.

Oh GW, you slay me.

Which board alternative are you referring to?

 Chute82 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
I skipped a page, but we're basing this all on what one person's store is saying? They could just be, I dunno, wrong.

On page 3 there is a store owner who talks about the price increase. If you still don't believe us wait till June

My local store just confirmed a price increase happening this June 1st.

Terror from the Deep wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
In response to a competitor making a cheaper modular plastic tile board, they raise the price of the one they have that doesn't sell.

Oh GW, you slay me.

Which board alternative are you referring to?

I'm guessing it's the Secret Weapon ones.
http://www.secretweaponminiatures.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=125

Their basic one costs $250 and doesn't include shipping (or a crazy amount of skulls)
GW's basic realm of battle costs $290 and to my knowledge qualifies for free shipping (and does have a crazy amount of skulls).
Comparing those two basic sets, assuming the GW one ships free, is probably pretty close price wise---since it costs me $15 alone to send just about any game-related package via USPS nowadays.

 Talys wrote:
It doesn't make sense to compare GW models with anyone other than scifi-fantasy miniature manufacturers. Who cares what the price of a WW2 infantryman costs, or a civil war dude with a bayonet, or a SR-71 scale model or a bi-plane. Or a catamaran or man-o-war, for that matter. These things appeals to a totally different audience.

Even if compared to other sci-fi and fantasy miniature manufacturers, as far as my opinion goes, GW still loses to most of them in terms of quality/price.

Without discussing quality and aesthetic, since these are highly personal and subjective in nature, Mantic and Reaper sell reasonably complete scifi/fantasy miniatures at prices that are cheaper than GW. Infinity sells a small but high quality line of infantry-sized miniatures that are price-competitive, but not cheaper, than GW. Privateer Press sells a reasonably complete line of miniatures that are as expensive or more expensive than GW. DUST is kind of incomplete, and has little model variety.

The other companies that produce scifi/fantasy can't really compete with GW in the breadth or depth from a modelling perspective. They just don't have a collection that you can really dig into. I'm not saying that there aren't good companies that have some great models; but if your thing is modelling futuristic armies with some reasonable variety of troops, vehicles, and stompy robots, the options are very limited. Guys like Anvil Industries are great, but you can't really build something substantial with them.

As I've already told you in the past, what's "very limited" here is your scope and knowledge on this matter.

The miniature market is growing, with more and more companies offering more and more products. The only thing a "hobbyist" needs nowadays is to have a bit of interest and free time to look things up. Do it and you may be surprised at what you may find.

Example? I'm getting these in a few days. 20€. From a new manufacturer that works with hard resin. As far as reviews go, they're quality-wise on the same level as GW's plastic kit (a bit old plastic kit now, but still from the golden age of Fantasy, head and shoulders over many of the fantasy kits GW has released in the last decade).

Also the whole "metal is for the nostalgic ones, it's outdated", I feel forced to claim BS. Have you seen the russian alternative chaos dwarves? All metal, at 2.5€ per model. Top stuff. I agree for vehicles plastic is more practical, but not really buying the Imperial Knight argument, IMO that doesn't even qualify as a "miniature".

@MWHistorian - I didn't say that SciFi and fantasy models don't exist (in whatever size), and I specifically said that lots if other companies gave great work.

What I said us that other than the companies I listed, none produce a collection of the depth and breadth of GW -- dozens of factions, thousands of kits, nearly infinite (hundreds of millions of combinations) kitting mix-and-match compatibility. It is possible, and relative to other modeling hobbies like trains and RCs, not especially expensive, to build a futuristic playable table with a a hundred to a couple of hundred distinctive, yet themed models doing battle. This is not possible with most companies that produce miniatures.

I specifically named Mantic, Reaper, and PP as reasonable alternatives for smaller scale modeling, and Infinity and DUST as limited options (as they have gaping holes in their offerings). For those with less time, these may satisfy your needs, possibly at a lower price (not really PP). If you think another company produces army-sized (in terms of distinct kits, builds, and models) SciFi miniatures, at least to the scale of PP or Mantic, I would love to hear what you had in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Korinov - I offer you the same challenge. Direct me to a company that has a catalogue that enables me to build a collection similar in scope and variety to an Apocalypse sized 40k army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Korinov - YOU may not think the Imperial knight is a miniature, but it was Games Workshop's most popular miniature of 2014. Is a scale SR-71, Blackhawk, or Millenium Falcon a miniature?

Regarding HIPS -- the majority would disagree with you. Just read most modeling boards; it's simply the most popular because it's very consistent, easiest to work with material. They are also by far the easiest to customize -- I like infinity models, but paint 'em once and that's it. I'll never buy a duplicate model/kit. I have not explored Russian alternative model sites. I'm not really interested in companies that have limited catalogues except for bits, bases, and that kind of thing.

 Talys wrote:

What I said us that other than the companies I listed, none produce a collection of the depth and breadth of GW -- dozens of factions, thousands of kits, nearly infinite (hundreds of millions of combinations) kitting mix-and-match compatibility. It is possible, and relative to other modeling hobbies like trains and RCs, not especially expensive, to build a futuristic playable table with a a hundred to a couple of hundred distinctive, yet themed models doing battle. This is not possible with most companies that produce miniatures.

I specifically named Mantic, Reaper, and PP as reasonable alternatives for smaller scale modeling, and Infinity and DUST as limited options (as they have gaping holes in their offerings). For those with less time, these may satisfy your needs, possibly at a lower price (not really PP). If you think another company produces army-sized (in terms of distinct kits, builds, and models) SciFi miniatures, at least to the scale of PP or Mantic, I would love to hear what you had in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Korinov - I offer you the same challenge. Direct me to a company that has a catalogue that enables me to build a collection similar in scope and variety to an Apocalypse sized 40k army.

Your entire argument seems to be down to GW having a larger product line than any other company.

My counter argument is that that means nothing if those models are poorer quality at a higher price.

My dreamforge leviathans are 20% larger than a Knight ans the technical complexity blows anything GW has ever done out of the water. It cost me the same as a knight would have. I don't care that GW have 4 or 5 variants of a knight if you can't even pose their legs.

I bought a full infinity army for the same price as the 40k core rulebook. It means absolutely nothing to me that 40k has more factions than infinity does.

@MWHistorian -- First off, I do not agree that GW models are inferior to any other companies. I happen to like 95% of their releases quite a lot. They produce a style that is aesthetically highly pleasing to me.

That being said, the depth and breadth argument IS central to me. I want to model ARMIES, and you can't model an army if he collection is missing the pieces you'd expect to see in an army.

I own 2 Dreamforge leviathans and about 30ish Infinity models. They are cool! But, armies they are not and I have zero incentive to keep buying and modeling their stuff, because it just turns repetitive.

Wait so for paints it is going to cost me an extra like 5 dollars a year at the rate I use up paints? Lord have mercy that's enough to drive me out of the hobby I tell you what

 Talys wrote:
@MWHistorian -- First off, I do not agree that GW models are inferior to any other companies. I happen to like 95% of their releases quite a lot. They produce a style that is aesthetically highly pleasing to me.

That being said, the depth and breadth argument IS central to me. I want to model ARMIES, and you can't model an army if he collection is missing the pieces you'd expect to see in an army.

I own 2 Dreamforge leviathans and about 30ish Infinity models. They are cool! But, armies they are not and I have zero incentive to keep buying and modeling their stuff, because it just turns repetitive.

I wasn't talking about style aesthetics, I was talking about quality of sculpts, detail, composition and assembly.
EXP 1. Malifaux makes higher quality plastic figures, but you may not like the style. They have more detail, are cheaper, are beautiful in their lively character and movement. They're amazing and go together very well. (with some fiddly bits)
EXP 2. Infinity. The level of detail is insane in these things. On an individual basis I'd put them high above anything GW does. You may not like metal minis, I kind of don't, but once they're assembled, it makes it all worth it. The individualism in each figure is very good. And CB knows how to make human faces...especially female faces. Something GW still hasn't quite got down yet.

Now, you may not like collecting them because they're not your thing, but you can't say that GW's quality beats everyone.

 Leth wrote:
Wait so for paints it is going to cost me an extra like 5 dollars a year at the rate I use up paints? Lord have mercy that's enough to drive me out of the hobby I tell you what

If you saw $5 on the ground Iam sure you would pick it up.

@MWHistorian - when did I ever say that GW's quality beats everyone else's? I never made that claim.

I think the latest GW kits aren't inferior to anyone else's. The level of detail and complexity of the Skitarii are every bit as good as any other model on the market. But some of that is subjective. I also far prefer posable models.

I love my Infinity models, and I have a small collection of Malifaux. They are cool. They are also not capable of being assembled into an army -- which is fine, but doesn't match up to what I'm looking for as my primary hobby which really needs to be of a grander scale. New releases for stuff like infinity is like, a casual weekend hobby, and then it's done and finds a comfy spot somewhere in a display case.

 Talys wrote:
@MWHistorian - when did I ever say that GW's quality beats everyone else's? I never made that claim.

You did.
Right here.

First off, I do not agree that GW models are inferior to any other companies.

 Chute82 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Wait so for paints it is going to cost me an extra like 5 dollars a year at the rate I use up paints? Lord have mercy that's enough to drive me out of the hobby I tell you what

If you saw $5 on the ground Iam sure you would pick it up.

Sure, and I could afford the difference by buying 5 less boxes of Pasta, or being more fuel efficient on my driving for 2 gallons worth of gas.

You can throw around percentages and statistics to try and make it seem like its a big deal. It's a quarter. I lose more than that to broken Washing machines every year

 Leth wrote:

 Chute82 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Wait so for paints it is going to cost me an extra like 5 dollars a year at the rate I use up paints? Lord have mercy that's enough to drive me out of the hobby I tell you what

If you saw $5 on the ground Iam sure you would pick it up.

Sure, and I could afford the difference by buying 5 less boxes of Pasta, or being more fuel efficient on my driving for 2 gallons worth of gas.

You can throw around percentages and statistics to try and make it seem like its a big deal. It's a quarter. I lose more than that to broken Washing machines every year

Okay, but why would you spend more for the same product?
Other companies' paints are just as good but cheaper. Why knowingly pay more for no gain?

 Leth wrote:

Sure, and I could afford the difference by buying 5 less boxes of Pasta, or being more fuel efficient on my driving for 2 gallons worth of gas.

Are we getting back onto the 'GW products are cheap because they cost less than a car' thing?

I'll bet if you started losing 75 cents to broken washing machines, you'd complain louder too.

 Vermis wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Sure, and I could afford the difference by buying 5 less boxes of Pasta, or being more fuel efficient on my driving for 2 gallons worth of gas.

Are we getting back onto the 'GW products are cheap because they cost less than a car' thing?

I'll bet if you started losing 75 cents to broken washing machines, you'd complain louder too.

Not if I only washed my clothes once every few months.

Seriously, do you guys buy paint twice a week or something? I buy one every couple of months, maaaybe more if I'm using a lot of one and am in a crazy painting mood. I probably find enough loose change in the meantime to fund the difference.

 Vermis wrote:

 Leth wrote:

Sure, and I could afford the difference by buying 5 less boxes of Pasta, or being more fuel efficient on my driving for 2 gallons worth of gas.

Are we getting back onto the 'GW products are cheap because they cost less than a car' thing?

Guys my hobby is collecting classic cars and rebuilding them using parts only made of diamond studded gold so that they look extra good when I blow them up.
No one has a right to complain their yachting hobby is expensive

 jonolikespie wrote:

No one has a right to complain their yachting hobby is expensive

Easy there.

You should know how much I paid for my yacht. The docking fees alone are absurd.

Sometimes I even pay for a caterer for long voyages.

 Blacksails wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

No one has a right to complain their yachting hobby is expensive

Easy there.

You should know how much I paid for my yacht. The docking fees alone are absurd.

Sometimes I even pay for a caterer for long voyages.

Must be nice

I never said it was cheap, I was addressing the actual significance of the price change

it's simple economics. While the price is less than what it is worth to me I am willing to buy it. When it is more I won't.

I want the nagash model. However because I won't use it the price is not worth it so I don't buy it. However I will instead invest that same money into a skitarii army that I will use.

Do I wish I could pay less? Of course, no one likes paying more than they have to. But while the personal value is worth it I will continue to use it.

Cost is not simply monetary, there is space taken up, trial and error with a new line of paints, matching of paints, not supporting my local store, etc. So yes while it does cost more money, the actual cost difference does not justify switching lines

 Chute82 wrote:


Must be nice

Its hard being this wealthy.

Do you know how costly a good cleaning person is?

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Talys wrote:
@MWHistorian - when did I ever say that GW's quality beats everyone else's? I never made that claim.

You did.
Right here.

First off, I do not agree that GW models are inferior to any other companies.

I don't see how that quote means Talys says GW quality beats everyone else's. It says they are not worse than everyone else's.

 durecellrabbit wrote:


I don't see how that quote means Talys says GW quality beats everyone else's. It says they are not worse than everyone else's.

So...semantics?

 Leth wrote:
I never said it was cheap, I was addressing the actual significance of the price change

it's simple economics. While the price is less than what it is worth to me I am willing to buy it. When it is more I won't.

And we're saying the paints are not worth the new price to us (or aren't worth the price now) as they are some of the most expensive on market already.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I never said it was cheap, I was addressing the actual significance of the price change

it's simple economics. While the price is less than what it is worth to me I am willing to buy it. When it is more I won't.

And we're saying the paints are not worth the new price to us (or aren't worth the price now) as they are some of the most expensive on market already.

Yep, I was never saying anyone was wrong. Personal value is personal value. I just hate when people manipulate numbers and statistics to make it seem like a bigger deal than it is

 Talys wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

ORicK wrote:
And the price per model for GW units is not even that high compared to most competitors.

Untrue.

Unless all the "most competitors" you know is Privateer Press.

Virtually everyone else is producing

a) high-quality resin models that are priced the same or a bit higher than GW plastics.
b) models cheaper than GW.

This, so much. You have to get out of the blinkered view of 'the competition' consisting of the other handful of premium-price sf/f manufacturers (which call for a far smaller count of expensive minis in their games anyway) when a lot of other companies producing plastics sell them for about 50p a figure, and even a lot of metal minis sell for as much or less than GW plastics.

It doesn't make sense to compare GW models with anyone other than scifi-fantasy miniature manufacturers. Who cares what the price of a WW2 infantryman costs, or a civil war dude with a bayonet, or a SR-71 scale model or a bi-plane. Or a catamaran or man-o-war, for that matter. These things appeals to a totally different audience.

Without discussing quality and aesthetic, since these are highly personal and subjective in nature, Mantic and Reaper sell reasonably complete scifi/fantasy miniatures at prices that are cheaper than GW. Infinity sells a small but high quality line of infantry-sized miniatures that are price-competitive, but not cheaper, than GW. Privateer Press sells a reasonably complete line of miniatures that are as expensive or more expensive than GW. DUST is kind of incomplete, and has little model variety.

The other companies that produce scifi/fantasy can't really compete with GW in the breadth or depth from a modelling perspective. They just don't have a collection that you can really dig into. I'm not saying that there aren't good companies that have some great models; but if your thing is modelling futuristic armies with some reasonable variety of troops, vehicles, and stompy robots, the options are very limited. Guys like Anvil Industries are great, but you can't really build something substantial with them.

Also: HIPS is generally the most desirable material for hobby now, not metal. Producing metal minis is great for nostalgia, and single-piece metal makes it easy to paint, but for modelling purposes, HIPS is vastly superior to white metal. Plus, good luck trying to build something like an Imperial Knight (a 200+ piece kit), made out of metal. If you don't like kits that are 75-300 pieces that take a lot of time and care to build, stay away from GW for any sort of gaming, because every current, major faction has them (I'm not including Sisters or Inquisition or Assassins...), and practically requires them to play an averageish game, casual or otherwise.

Also, many people who have the hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands of hours to throw at hobby necessary to build such armies to resemble anything remotely like GW's vision of what a table should look like will also often have significant disposable income. Obviously, GW is catering to them, at the expense of customers who wish, for example, to just buy a few models and play a game.

A few problems with your post I have noticed, the first real big thing is all those companies produce complete miniature lines too their own games. 28mm simply does not work on a massive scale with vehicles and all this is simply an indoctrinated view some gamers have created by GW. 28mm works for skirmish games and RPGS if you want a large scale game like what you are describing you need to look at doing a smaller scale 15mm and smaller. This is why their are next to no companies that due such large scale games in 28mm it simply doesn't work, is too costly and risky of an investment, also the market is moving towards faster to play games, that means in 28mm you want to be doing a game that does not require a lot of painting and a large amount of miniatures to move around hence lowering game length.

second big thing is HIPS is an inferior material far as I am concerned, do you know how much it costs to produce a single mold for the material? 5K - 20K not including currency exchange rates. The material has short comings in casting, and detail quality. further more because of the high costs you limit the diversity of your range and ability to keep up with new range expansions due too the high costs. Unless you want to become reliant on kickstarter every time you want to expand your range ( like certain companies out their that produce in HIPS have become) you need to look at more reasonable cost effective materials. Metal is a fantastic material for casting mold costs are a huge difference from HIPS , resin is also the best material for casting detailed miniatures and metal is right up their as well. metal miniatures also can be melted down when you update a old sculpt ( this is exactly what infinity does and one of the main reasons they use purely metal only in their range).

Imperial Knights are ridiculous miniatures to begin with and do not fit in a 28mm scale game, they would be much better represented in something like Epic ( which they killed off and never supported ). that is why you don't see more reasonable companies producing things such as that, they are silly and way oversized , harming the game scale and any form of sensibility in a games scale of combat.

The market is going towards games that can be played in a little under or over an hour , not for games that go on for several hours in one go. This is why skirmish games, miniature / board game hybrids are becoming so dominant. Resin and Metal are fantastic materials and will continue to stay the dominant, look at wrath of kings right now they have released a plastic range, had that held up because the only somewhat less expensive place to do plastic miniatures is China and hence got held in port with delays. They now have to sell a lot of miniatures to make up enough money to be able to produce anything new in their range if they want to keep with plastic miniatures. Which is not a very good idea for doing a skirmish game ( which usually rely on having a high miniature diversity) , I think their good miniatures but I think doing that is going to really hurt them in the long run, when we have companies like Dark Age who are producing in metal, who are able to produce a lot more miniatures vs those who go with highly expensive plastic ones, and as we have seen it requires so many sales to be able to produce a new HIPS miniature were those of us who produce in the other two materials can get many more miniatures produced for much less of the price it takes to produce a HIPS miniature.

As I have said many times we need innovation in casting as with digital and traditional sculpting have out done what we can cast, had Restic been a better quality material HIPS would have very well become nearly none existent outside of GW as their would be zero reason to use HIPS. as it sits right now the only time I myself would ever , ever consider HIPS is for a starter box and that would be the limit of what I would ever consider doing miniatures in HIPS, it is simply too expensive for a mold vs the other two materials and you cannot get as near as good detail as the other two materials and I am supporting local casters instead of commissioning my work over to china were the workers are being paid low wages.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Talys wrote:
@MWHistorian - when did I ever say that GW's quality beats everyone else's? I never made that claim.

You did.
Right here.

First off, I do not agree that GW models are inferior to any other companies.

No. Not inferior is not the same as BETTER. It actually means, NOT WORSE.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Okay, but why would you spend more for the same product?
Other companies' paints are just as good but cheaper. Why knowingly pay more for no gain?

1. Because the colors are NOT the same
2. Because the paints are NOT the same
3. Because droppers are pain with wet palettes, and p3 paints are limited in colors
4. Because some people like the convenience of being able to buy paint at a nearby store, and that store happens to carry citadel
5. Because not everyone has the same animosity for GW as you
6. Because some people actually like GW and their products. I know, wow, huh?

 Talys wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Talys wrote:
@MWHistorian - when did I ever say that GW's quality beats everyone else's? I never made that claim.

You did.
Right here.

First off, I do not agree that GW models are inferior to any other companies.

No. Not inferior is not the same as BETTER. It actually means, NOT WORSE.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Okay, but why would you spend more for the same product?
Other companies' paints are just as good but cheaper. Why knowingly pay more for no gain?

1. Because the colors are NOT the same
2. Because the paints are NOT the same
3. Because droppers are pain with wet palettes, and p3 paints are limited in colors
4. Because some people like the convenience of being able to buy paint at a nearby store, and that store happens to carry citadel
5. Because not everyone has the same animosity for GW as you
6. Because some people actually like GW and their products. I know, wow, huh?

You're still saying there's not a single miniature range that is better than GW. All my points still stand.,
As for your paint points.

1.Colors might not be the same, true. And I can see buying the same color to match previously painted models...until GW changes it all again.
2. Umm...what?
3. Some other companies sell pots...for cheaper.
4. So, "it's your only choice" isn't a good defense and does nothing to answer "why pay more?"
5. What does that have to do with answering "Why pay more?" You're letting your emotions ruin your reason here.
6. Same point as 5 and same response.

Besides "it's their only choice" you haven't answer, "Why pay more?"

I... Wat?
Droppers are FAR better than flip tops for a wet pallet..

 jonolikespie wrote:
I... Wat?
Droppers are FAR better than flip tops for a wet pallet..

Agreed. I blend colors a lot and hate pots.

@underfire wargaming -- I'm happy for the people who like quick, sort games requiring little investments and small models. They should stay far, far away from GW, as they will not be happy with it.

As I mentioned, IK was the most popular and best selling 40k kit last year. So while it isn't your idea of fun to toss in a giant, stompy, nigh impossible to kill robot onto the battlefield, a lot of 40k disagree. Different priorities, man.

For people like me, I want an immersive experience shared with hobbyists who likewise wish immersive experiences. We have TONS of models, and happily buy little models, jets, and gigantic models. For us, 40k is perfect, and we would not enjoy it as a wee skirmish game.

If all the people who want little skirmish games leave 40k, I could care less. There are enough people who want the opposite that GW will stay on business and service these people in some way. I also don't really care if GW makes hundreds of millions or shrinks to a smaller company; makes no difference to me.

My only real experience wit restic is PP, and I hare those. As I said, I enjoy large models as well as small, and HIPS is ideal for that. Also, love them or ate them, the multipart plastic kits largely eliminate undercuts, which is virtually unavoidable with metal. Oh yeah, remember drilling out gun barrels on metal minis? :|

Requizen wrote:
Not if I only washed my clothes once every few months.

Seriously, do you guys buy paint twice a week or something? I buy one every couple of months, maaaybe more if I'm using a lot of one and am in a crazy painting mood. I probably find enough loose change in the meantime to fund the difference.

Well, there's also the issue of a newbie who has to stock up in one go; the hobbyist who has to buy a bunch of different paints for that new army and new paint scheme; the fanboy who has to keep up when the entire paint range and it's colors change almost overnight...

For guys with an established 'collection', a few cents each time adds up, and I'm not just talking about miniatures paints. It's just one extra expense in general that isn't really necessary, especially if you consider the disparity between those 12ml pots and 17-18ml of comparable or superior paints in pots and bottles that don't cause them to constantly dry out. In that case it and it's implications (confirmations?) about GW's overall attitudes are also kind of insulting, a few cents as it may be.

Just turning my head to look at my collection of 200+ mini paints. (I have a sickness) A lot of them are Ral Partha Miniature Paints, bought within a relatively small window of time when they were 85p for a 15ml pot. I think about that time, GW paints were £2.25? Going by number of pots, all-MP would've cost over £170, and all-GW over £450. Going by total ml of the MP pots, GW would've cost over £550 at the time. Now obviously this is a bit unrealistic, as that number of paints is probably a tad excessive for the average hobbyist; I don't buy just one brand (and definitely not at 85p a pot, anymore); and even buying lots at the time I didn't buy 200 pots in one fell swoop. Even so, I don't think the potential saving in my case, even if the number of pots were halved, would've been much to sniff at.

 jonolikespie wrote:
I... Wat?
Droppers are FAR better than flip tops for a wet pallet..

No. Any paint I don't use up makes a mess (spreads out) overnight, doubly so if you use flo-aid or medium.

With a dropper, one drop is like... 5x more paint than I often want. So I end up wiping away all my unused paint. I far prefer to grab the right amount of paint from a fliptop.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vermis wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Not if I only washed my clothes once every few months.

Seriously, do you guys buy paint twice a week or something? I buy one every couple of months, maaaybe more if I'm using a lot of one and am in a crazy painting mood. I probably find enough loose change in the meantime to fund the difference.

Well, there's also the issue of a newbie who has to stock up in one go; the hobbyist who has to buy a bunch of different paints for that new army and new paint scheme; the fanboy who has to keep up when the entire paint range and it's colors change almost overnight...

For guys with an established 'collection', a few cents each time adds up, and I'm not just talking about miniatures paints. It's just one extra expense in general that isn't really necessary, especially if you consider the disparity between those 12ml pots and 17-18ml of comparable or superior paints in pots and bottles that don't cause them to constantly dry out. In that case it and it's implications (confirmations?) about GW's overall attitudes are also kind of insulting, a few cents as it may be.

Just turning my head to look at my collection of 200+ mini paints. (I have a sickness) A lot of them are Ral Partha Miniature Paints, bought within a relatively small window of time when they were 85p for a 15ml pot. I think about that time, GW paints were £2.25? Going by number of pots, all-MP would've cost over £170, and all-GW over £450. Going by total ml of the MP pots, GW would've cost over £550 at the time. Now obviously this is a bit unrealistic, as that number of paints is probably a tad excessive for the average hobbyist; I don't buy just one brand (and definitely not at 85p a pot, anymore); and even buying lots at the time I didn't buy 200 pots in one fell swoop. Even so, I don't think the potential saving in my case, even if the number of pots were halved, would've been much to sniff at.

It's just preference. It is a pointless exercise trying to convince someone who is happy using Vallejo, reaper, P3 or citadel that their favorite paint is not good value. One thing is for sure -- don't commoditized them, because they are not all 'the same'. Just like paintbrushes and airbrushed are not all 'the same'

I like dropper for airbrush and pot for paintbrush.

Talking with reasonable arguments doesn't work.

It comes down to this;
rule 1 : Other companies, make better quality miniatures at a cheaper price but it is not GW.
rule 2 :Other hobbies are also expensive so GW being expensive is OK.
Honorable mention;
rule 3: GW is not for peasants (ergo poor people should stick to little green men)

so product x is better than GW product y retaliate with rule 1
But the GW one is more expensive! retaliate with rule 2 (or rule 3).

Damn that forgeworld warlord titan doesn't fit in my Ferrari

Some fascinating comments....

Regardless of how much anyone loves GW's product or not...the fact remains.

If your company is losing sales (demand) and profit - the worst possible answer is to raise prices.

Only time will tell. Hopefully, the new CEO will make changes in policy and culture before he is required to step down as well....or worse.

4. GW has lost its core target base and is making a money grab at a slowly dwindling market.

TSR learned the same lesson the hard way.

You die hard do know that this "price increase" is an ongoing issue, right? It doesn't stop with silly things like paint and expensive modeling tools?

Personally, I love GW and won't play any other game. I'm just not interested in any others.
The nice thing is, the rules are there, minis can be bought, so even if GW goes under I will still be able to enjoy their great games.

I think their high prices have pushed others like me to get the minis by other means, such as Ebay where we can at least try to get them cheaper and a lot of times at a great deal.

My opinion is that GW needs to just simply drop the paint/tools/hobbit/lotr/etc and just simply focus on what made them great to begin with - 40k and whfb. Bring back the old board games like space hulk, tyranid attack, hero quest, etc. and bring their prices back down.

They need to draw people back and get them buying more. People will tend to buy more if they feel they are getting a good deal.

*edit*
1 suggestion I had sent GW a number of years ago and I believe would have made a huge difference in sales, was when they were releasing the core game in a box set which came with the rules and 2 armies. My suggestion was simple:
say you plan on releasing 10k copies of the game in the box set form, and say you have 10 different factions/armies in your product line.
The create 5 different box sets, each with 2 different starting armies. That way any player would be more than happy to buy the box set because they would be able to choose 1 that contained pieces for his/her army. Thus increasing the amount of total sales of the box set instead of just the rules.

kaotkbliss wrote:
Personally, I love GW and won't play any other game. I'm just not interested in any others.
The nice thing is, the rules are there, minis can be bought, so even if GW goes under I will still be able to enjoy their great games.

I think their high prices have pushed others like me to get the minis by other means, such as Ebay where we can at least try to get them cheaper and a lot of times at a great deal.

My opinion is that GW needs to just simply drop the paint/tools/hobbit/lotr/etc and just simply focus on what made them great to begin with - 40k and whfb. Bring back the old board games like space hulk, tyranid attack, hero quest, etc. and bring their prices back down.

They need to draw people back and get them buying more. People will tend to buy more if they feel they are getting a good deal.

The problem is GW don't understand any of this, they have stated, in front of a judge and jury no less, that they think their customers favourite part of the GW hobby is buying GW products.

 jonolikespie wrote:

The problem is GW don't understand any of this, they have stated, in front of a judge and jury no less, that they think their customers favourite part of the GW hobby is buying GW products.

In a way that's true, we purchased GW models to expand our armies. Then we purchased more models to convert them. Then we purchased more models to try new armies and we hand made scenery to complement our armies on the battlefield

kaotkbliss wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

The problem is GW don't understand any of this, they have stated, in front of a judge and jury no less, that they think their customers favourite part of the GW hobby is buying GW products.

In a way that's true, we purchased GW models to expand our armies. Then we purchased more models to convert them. Then we purchased more models to try new armies and we hand made scenery to complement our armies on the battlefield

That's...kinda sad. I don't meant that derogatorily, but saying your favorite part of the hobby is buying the product says very little good about the hobby itself.

No, it's not my favorite part, but it is fun building up my army, putting together new models and painting them up and such.

There is one thing that GW can't fix: people have less disposable income, and less free time now.

By the way, saying that 40k is not expensive compared to hobbies like RCs and train sets, or sports like ski or golf, or even entertainment per hour like movie theatres is not elitist. It is a simple statement of fact.

40k is a large scale, collectible hobby that eats up gobs of time and is expensive. So are many other non-digital niche hobbies. I now have lots of hobby time, but when I had less, the fact is 40k was far less ideal either as a hobby or game. 40k is a hobby that is best enjoyed obsessively, rather than casually. It's a lousy casual hobby, because there is so much of everything and it is so time consuming that you never get to enjoy it if you don't have the spare time.

 Leth wrote:
I never said it was cheap, I was addressing the actual significance of the price change

it's simple economics. While the price is less than what it is worth to me I am willing to buy it. When it is more I won't.

I want the nagash model. However because I won't use it the price is not worth it so I don't buy it. However I will instead invest that same money into a skitarii army that I will use.

Do I wish I could pay less? Of course, no one likes paying more than they have to. But while the personal value is worth it I will continue to use it.

Cost is not simply monetary, there is space taken up, trial and error with a new line of paints, matching of paints, not supporting my local store, etc. So yes while it does cost more money, the actual cost difference does not justify switching lines

All this really demonstrates is that you don't understand the concept of principles. $5 is obviously not breaking anyone's bank. Whether it's an expensive price increase or not isn't really the point.

kaotkbliss wrote:
No, it's not my favorite part, but it is fun building up my army, putting together new models and painting them up and such.

Yes, me too and I love adding to my armies. That's the thing: I don't want any of my armies to *ever* be done, even if I give them a huge break (years).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Cost is not simply monetary, there is space taken up, trial and error with a new line of paints, matching of paints, not supporting my local store, etc. So yes while it does cost more money, the actual cost difference does not justify switching lines

All this really demonstrates is that you don't understand the concept of principles. $5 is obviously not breaking anyone's bank. Whether it's an expensive price increase or not isn't really the point.

By the way, I don't think any of my local stores are actually increasing their prices, at least not yet.

I'm taking this with salt! =)

 Talys wrote:
There is one thing that GW can't fix: people have less disposable income, and less free time now.

By the way, saying that 40k is not expensive compared to hobbies like RCs and train sets, or sports like ski or golf, or even entertainment per hour like movie theatres is not elitist. It is a simple statement of fact.

40k is a large scale, collectible hobby that eats up gobs of time and is expensive. So are many other non-digital niche hobbies. I now have lots of hobby time, but when I had less, the fact is 40k was far less ideal either as a hobby or game. 40k is a hobby that is best enjoyed obsessively, rather than casually. It's a lousy casual hobby, because there is so much of everything and it is so time consuming that you never get to enjoy it if you don't have the spare time.

But the Hobby is growing and has been for a long time. In North America its estimated to have more than doubled since '08.
GW is the exception by making less money, not the rule.

As well the reason we were joking about comparing it to other hobbies like boating or collecting cars is because people trying to justify the expense will never compare it to other miniature wargames, as you have just done. Its always either 'miniatures are expensive' or 'but not as expensive as sports cars'. People defending GWs prices never look at the most relevant information, the price of other miniatures in the same market (which includes 15mm wwii because if you start demanding people compare 40k to other companies army level 28mm, SiFi gothic inspired d6 based game then you're deliberately derailing the conversation).

Unfortunately the people this will hit will be new entrants. Most long term gamers rarely buy GW paints, tools or glues but the kids starting out do. They continue to push the game towards a hobby for the rich. I'm 37 I buy mostly FW because I can afford it and I usually only buy one order a year as I wouldn't have time to work on any more. But my kids are young and I genuinely don't want to take up the game which is sad. I would hate to see them plough large sums of their cash into it in their late teens and early 20's. I know all the arguments about the cost of golf, video games blah blah but it's not the same. the cost is huge, if you don't think so I'm sorry but you have little to contribute to a conversation with 90% of the population.

That I imagine is the point. It *hurts* the new people into the hobby.

(This is completely full of idle speculation)

I imagine their business strategy is to extract as much money from people coming into the hobby as possible. Its when people spend the most, probably.

So in a flurry of new found addiction, coupled with newbie ignorance, a person completely overspends on the stuff no veteran buys.

This way, veterans, (after their usual grumbling) keep buying as they always would. And the newbie? Well.. if he hangs around, great, he'll keep buying miniatures. And if he doesn't hang around, well at least we got as much money from him as we could before he bailed.

After a year break, GW has forgotten why their stock is slipping so bad it seems.

The codex blitz + price increase will keep them afloat for a few more years.

Anyone else here find it funny that we've discussed which paints are better here but looking in the other thread about the FW paints they use the PP bottles. I don't think anyone here would argue FW aren't as good as GW proper, so does that mean PPs pots are superior to GWs, or are we expected to believe GWs are inferior to GWs?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I never said it was cheap, I was addressing the actual significance of the price change

it's simple economics. While the price is less than what it is worth to me I am willing to buy it. When it is more I won't.

I want the nagash model. However because I won't use it the price is not worth it so I don't buy it. However I will instead invest that same money into a skitarii army that I will use.

Do I wish I could pay less? Of course, no one likes paying more than they have to. But while the personal value is worth it I will continue to use it.

Cost is not simply monetary, there is space taken up, trial and error with a new line of paints, matching of paints, not supporting my local store, etc. So yes while it does cost more money, the actual cost difference does not justify switching lines

All this really demonstrates is that you don't understand the concept of principles. $5 is obviously not breaking anyone's bank. Whether it's an expensive price increase or not isn't really the point.

I guess I save my principles concerns for things that I actually care about versus a small increase in my luxury hobby item

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Whether it's an expensive price increase or not isn't really the point.

Exactly.

It's a matter of value, value isn't always synonymous with price.

 jonolikespie wrote:

But the Hobby is growing and has been for a long time. In North America its estimated to have more than doubled since '08.
GW is the exception by making less money, not the rule.

As well the reason we were joking about comparing it to other hobbies like boating or collecting cars is because people trying to justify the expense will never compare it to other miniature wargames, as you have just done. Its always either 'miniatures are expensive' or 'but not as expensive as sports cars'. People defending GWs prices never look at the most relevant information, the price of other miniatures in the same market (which includes 15mm wwii because if you start demanding people compare 40k to other companies army level 28mm, SiFi gothic inspired d6 based game then you're deliberately derailing the conversation).

I'm not sure who ever compared boats or cars to toy soldiers. That's pretty silly. I mean, why stop there. Boats and cars are chump change compared to vacation properties in Monte Carlo, Hong Kong, and Vancouver. And those Gulfstreams make even the really nice penthouses look like a steal -- never mind the pilot.

Let's be clear: we're talking about principally about nerd-centric hobbies and activities for people who have spare time; not "everything that can be purchased on Earth". Things that appeal to folks who could tell you the difference between NCC-1701, NCC-1701-C, and NX-01 without googling it. Or why the Enterprise would win against the Death Star (or lose).

I don't know what the overlap is in customer base for historicals. None of my 40k friends have even the tiniest interest in historical or scale models, and at my local hobby shop, the crowds do not much mingle. You don't see civil war buffs play Malifaux on the odd weekend. For me, a scale X-Wing Fighter? Yes! Giant Millenium Falcon? Sure thing! Warlord Titan?!?! OMG. I wish I had one (and that my wife wouldn't kill me for parking it in our living room). A scale Sherman or F-14? Not if someone paid me. So the price is irrelevant to me. To someone who might choose between the two, sure, it's relevant.

Also, it isn't at all derailing the conversation, because you are totally missing out on why people who love 40k do. It is BECAUSE of a gothic inspired d6 scifi shooter wargame with space marines versus space elves, space orks versus huge robots, flying jets, and guys that hurl insulting taunts. It's all about bolter porn, man. If this isn't your thing? Stay away from 40k, because there are plenty of other things to do!

Thankfully, there are many miniature-related hobbies, from a little number of models (like Infinity) to quite a few (like Warmachines) to monstrosity (like 40k). So pick your poison. Or go back to cars and boats. The sign of a true hobbyist is one who prefers spending the night fiddling with a model over zipping around in a sports car.

Besides: do you have any idea how uncomfortable a Ferrari is, how noisy they run, what a terrible ride they are, and how much they break down? ^.^ Piece of junk, if you ask me. Would take a Trukk (or a Land Raider) any day!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:
Anyone else here find it funny that we've discussed which paints are better here but looking in the other thread about the FW paints they use the PP bottles. I don't think anyone here would argue FW aren't as good as GW proper, so does that mean PPs pots are superior to GWs, or are we expected to believe GWs are inferior to GWs?

They are *different*. I have almost all of my GW paints also in dropper bottles with airbrush thinner, to use in the airbrush. I also have about half my Vallejo paints in fliptops (as well as droppers) so that I can easily use them with a paintbrush. When I'm painting a large model, like a building, I often prefer to decant from a dropper (onto a dry palette); for a small model like infantry, I often prefer a fliptop (onto a wet palette).

When I'm drybrushing I ALWAYS prefer a fliptop.

Talys, I want to thank you for being a very reasonable and well-spoken voice in this thread. I completely agree with most of your points, and not once have you taken to fanboyish arguments. Great job!

 Talys wrote:

Also, it isn't at all derailing the conversation, because you are totally missing out on why people who love 40k do. It is BECAUSE of a gothic inspired d6 scifi shooter wargame with space marines versus space elves, space orks versus huge robots, flying jets, and guys that hurl insulting taunts. It's all about bolter porn, man. If this isn't your thing? Stay away from 40k, because there are plenty of other things to do!

Thankfully, there are many miniature-related hobbies, from a little number of models (like Infinity) to quite a few (like Warmachines) to monstrosity (like 40k). So pick your poison. Or go back to cars and boats. The sign of a true hobbyist is one who prefers spending the night fiddling with a model over zipping around in a sports car.

Besides: do you have any idea how uncomfortable a Ferrari is, how noisy they run, what a terrible ride they are, and how much they break down? ^.^ Piece of junk, if you ask me. Would take a Trukk (or a Land Raider) any day!!

I play historicals, I play Warhammer from time to time, amongst a slew of other games (and love sports cars and motorbikes as well actually!) While I do know of gamers that play a single game exclusively, I think there is probably a lot of crossover and as such GW's prices (going back to the OP here, sorry if this is outlandish! ) certainly do matter.

I have friends who have built up their WFB with Mantic minis and Perry historicals. Others who have moved on to X-Wing from 40k because they weren't willing to keep on top of the game in terms of the finances involved. I think a lot more people are attracted to the concept of wargaming, of painted miniatures on cool terrain and it's strategic elements, than just the specific elements of WFB, 40k or whatever game, and will not necessarily just look in one place for it.

Your first paragraph I have quoted there is great by the way! Very well written, you're certainly right though that if there are certain things that you want, certainly in the case of 40k, you have to go to GW for them. But, the higher those prices go, the more that 'value' test that Insaniak mentioned some posts above gets challenged. There will always be one guy who will spend a $100 on a box of tactical marines, they probably post on this forum, but in the meantime every year the line on the graph for the company dips. While the universe GW has created is awesome, it's not the only one. Speaking personally, I'm really enjoying the background of Infinity, it's got a vibrancy about it and after twenty years of reading the same tale of the genetically engineered guys it started to get a bit stale for me. But, of course YMMV..

As a final though though I would still maintain that for the traditional 40k hobbyist, huge robots and flying jets are not core components of the game, and have actually detracted from the experience somewhat since their introduction. Those were always done much better in 6mm

 Leth wrote:
I guess I save my principles concerns for things that I actually care about versus a small increase in my luxury hobby item

Ambivalence toward being taken advantage of doesn't mean you aren't being taken advantage of.

People in Australia are expecting paint to be $8, up from $6. I laughed.

Meanwhile I got some 75g tube paint from the local Bunnings for less than $2 each that Im using for terrain.

Also got enough miniature paint left for ages for what little miniature painting I do. Walked into a shop that had some GW boxes they were getting rid of for half aussie retail and some were the old high elf paint starter.

 Talys wrote:

I don't know what the overlap is in customer base for historicals. None of my 40k friends have even the tiniest interest in historical or scale models, and at my local hobby shop, the crowds do not much mingle. You don't see civil war buffs play Malifaux on the odd weekend. For me, a scale X-Wing Fighter? Yes! Giant Millenium Falcon? Sure thing! Warlord Titan?!?! OMG. I wish I had one (and that my wife wouldn't kill me for parking it in our living room). A scale Sherman or F-14? Not if someone paid me. So the price is irrelevant to me. To someone who might choose between the two, sure, it's relevant.

All the historics players I know from my local club tend to also have factions for smaller fantasy (X-Wing, Malifaux, Mordheim, Blood Bowl, etc) and historics (Saga, Bolt Action, etc) because they are better for pick-up games and short club evening games. I bet most of them have at least one 40K army as well gathering dust. They then play huge (300+ minis a side) historic games over a Saturday.

The one game/company/ruleset really only applies to GW for some reason (market dominance and brilliance 20 years ago I imagine). Most other gamers tend to play quite a mix of periods / scales / games / rules and will more likely pick up a new game for a project than a new army for an existing game. Because who ever said variety was a bad thing?

In the grand scheme of things is a small increase in paint costs a big deal? Not really, the paint lasts pretty well. Does it manage to make GW paints look like even worse value than it's competitors? Definitely. It's already more expensive than the rest, which often contain more paint in dropper bottles. It's also much more expensive than Coat d'Arms who made the last Citadel paint range and still provides colour matches (I don't know if they also make the current one). I used to buy GW paints exclusively, and I still buy them from time to time (I too prefer pots for painting a single mini as the droppers seem wasteful), but in the last couple of years since I got into historics my paint collection has gone from 100% citadel to 45% Citadel, 50% Vallejo, 5% Other, and I'll continue to replace GW paints with Vallejos in the future because the value is so much better. 20% less per bottle, with 20% more in them (18ml Vs 15ml?)

Herzlos wrote:
20% less per bottle, with 20% more in them (18ml Vs 15ml?)

Its only 12ml in a GW paint so you get 33% less paint or 50% more depending which way you look at it before factoring in the price.

The argument about new entrants to the hobby is a sound one. I think its effect is being hugely exaggerated, but it will have an influence over time.

Our main 40k player is my son; I help him customise stuff and paint when there's a deadline approaching, like his upcoming Apocalypse match in 10 days.

The basic hobby is not expensive for kids. I mean it, not expensive. He's building an Ork army, and probably spends £30 every three months or so, supplemented with more stuff at birthdays and Christmas. It takes those three months to paint all the items. (We are lucky, we're near Dark Sphere, so that significantly affects the price dimension0

Compare that with other stuff 14-year olds buy: Destiny was around £45. Was used for a month or two. Most Xbox One games are over £40, the console itself is £300 plus. These days, most of his friends have their own iPads, £240 and up, many of them have new iPhones. Even in low-income families, parents tend to buy their kids expensive stuff. Many parents would be happy about paying those kinds of sums for a hobby that doesn't involve staring at a screen for hours on end.

that said, GW are pushing too hard on prices and it will have an effect. The AOBR starter game was £40 in 2009 - if it had kept pace with inflation it would be £48-50 today. Altho staff in some GW stores are great, he used to play at Bluewater, and would often see parents walk in, become resigned to paying £75 for a starter box... then walk out in horror once they got the hard sell on a £50 paint set.

The concerns of older players, like many on dakkadakka, are probably largely irrelevant to GW's future, but if they don't address recruitment, with a coherent strategy, they will wither and die over the next decade.

I think GW shot themselves in the foot a tad by extending the paint range so much. There's a lot of overlap now and newbies are going to buy the paints they need and only the paints they need whilst veterans are restocking equivalents to trusted colours. GW are left with higher levels of stock to carry and greater space used up in stores for the paint range. They'd have been so much better off actually reducing the range down to a core range and selling more. Kind of like how Lidl can undercut Tesco by not stocking huge ranges of beans.

I don't see that they can continue to sustain a range of 130 paints. I'm kicking myself for buying Russ Grey as well as Fenrisian Grey, and I'm sure there are many examples of overlap elsewhere. Of course, if and when they do reduce that range down to about 60, they'll be heralded as some sort of 'best of' collection and marked up 50% but that's why we love GW, isn't it?!

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

The basic hobby is not expensive for kids. I mean it, not expensive. He's building an Ork army, and probably spends £30 every three months or so, supplemented with more stuff at birthdays and Christmas. It takes those three months to paint all the items. (We are lucky, we're near Dark Sphere, so that significantly affects the price dimension0

Compare that with other stuff 14-year olds buy: Destiny was around £45. Was used for a month or two. Most Xbox One games are over £40, the console itself is £300 plus. These days, most of his friends have their own iPads, £240 and up, many of them have new iPhones. Even in low-income families, parents tend to buy their kids expensive stuff. Many parents would be happy about paying those kinds of sums for a hobby that doesn't involve staring at a screen for hours on end.

Newp, sorry, we've already talked about the 'cheap in comparison to expensive tech' thing. Some of us find it wanting.

Also:

The basic hobby is not expensive for kids. I mean it, not expensive...
parents tend to buy their kids expensive stuff.

Yyyeah. I don't wonder that you don't think it's expensive for kids.

 Vermis wrote:

Newp, sorry, we've already talked about the 'cheap in comparison to expensive tech' thing. Some of us find it wanting.

Sorry if my post was too nuanced for you. Blithely dismissing a comparison doesn't make it invalid.

The fact remains that most 14 year old boys spend a lot on xbox games, with an average of around six hours a week spent playing. It's undeniable that this is the main competition for a teenagers pounds/dollars, and they spend a lot. Again, that doesn't mean GW won't have a problem with recruitment if they keep increasing prices by three times the inflation rate.

At the end of the day, any purchase is boiled down to perception of value. Is the dollar amount I'm going to spend on this translate to an acceptable amount of entertainment?

For me at least, lately, video games have become a higher value/dollar purchase than wargaming stuff. Video games may have a shorter shelf life, but allow for immediate gratification for someone with far less free time.

Wargaming stuff requires a good place to play (and even a community). They require significant time investment to prepare the game to play, from the game's setup to the miniature's painting and construction. The barrier to entry is insanely high now thanks to incredibly expensive revolving door rules and minimum point requirements to play an interesting game (people look at me funny if I even ask to play a 1500 game. They can't bring 5 knights...)

And finally, GW's own behavior has massively tipped the scales against their product being an acceptable value/dollar ratio.

Well I buy from an Independant Retailer and they have everything WAY more expensive, like plain skaven clanrats are 40 francs, which is 45 Dolores.

Ember

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

Newp, sorry, we've already talked about the 'cheap in comparison to expensive tech' thing. Some of us find it wanting.

Sorry if my post was too nuanced for you. Blithely dismissing a comparison doesn't make it invalid.

The fact remains that most 14 year old boys spend a lot on xbox games, with an average of around six hours a week spent playing. It's undeniable that this is the main competition for a teenagers pounds/dollars, and they spend a lot. Again, that doesn't mean GW won't have a problem with recruitment if they keep increasing prices by three times the inflation rate.

Time and again this occurs, and time and again it is shown to be fallacious. The " GW isn't expensive because other things cost money" argument is not a valid one. Value is subjective, and therefore you cannot compare relative value across different activities and draw any meaningful conclusions. It may take 3 months to paint £30 of minis for you, and a game may last days or weeks, but equally I'm sure there's other 14 year olds out there who may simply glue and base coat their minis in no time yet spend weeks and weeks exploring and completing all the sub quests and achievements on a game, and as far as I'm aware their is no scientific measure for fun, so short of a massive survey of everyone who fits the particular criteria (and the recent election has shown how meaning that sort of activity can be) one cannot objectively measure the enjoyment obtained by the two activities by two different people.

No, the only thing to do is to compare the pricing of similar products by similar companies intended for a similar purpose, and in this case GW nearly always come up wanting, frequently it's only a question of how much.

Also, a price rise that comes into effect 2 weeks after the UK economy reports negative inflation for the first time in over half a century just seems to illustrate that the majority of any commercial pressures GW is subject to are self generated.

What I personally find interesting (and not in a positive way) is the notion that GW games are something other than just a facet of miniature wargaming in general. Warhammer is just one of many aspects of that hobby, not a hobby in and of itself. This argument of "GW games require a lot of money and time" isn't exclusive to GW in any way, shape or form. Miniature wargaming requires a lot of money and time, and GW still falls on the more expensive end of that spectrum.

Also, I repeatedly see this "nothing else compares" mindset only from GW/Warhammer players. Other gamers tend to have an open mind - even oldschool grognard historical gamers might have their preference for settings and games but be open to looking at other things in different settings; it's only the Warhammer crowd that immediately points out why X game can't compare to Warhammer, often for reasons that don't exactly paint Warhammer in a good light (e.g. the common "But Warhammer has LARGE armies!" argument. Yes, it does. And the game is not built for large armies and suffers accordingly).

I continually see that closed-minded, insular mentality among Warhammer players only.

 Azreal13 wrote:
The " GW isn't expensive because other things cost money" argument is not a valid one. Value is subjective, and therefore you cannot compare relative value across different activities and draw any meaningful conclusions.

The rival for mature gamers' attentions is doubtless other figure based-games. But it's pretty unarguable (unless you're Tom Kirby) that for 14 years olds, the main rival to 40k tends to be video games.

Nobody's arguing in favour of 40k increases - which will ultimately have an effect and cut off recruitment, which is what drives GW's business. But if you're looking at how this will affect GW long-term, you have to look in a wider context. Parents get annoyed with the outrageous prices of a lot of items, not just 40k.

You'll get no argument that video games are a substantial draw on a 14 year olds free time, in fact, they're probably the thing that any other product wishing to make an impact with that market has to compete with.

The issue is that trying to draw comparisons between the price of products from two completely different sectors is futile and comparing the value totally subjective, saying x price is ok because y costs z doesn't apply when one is subject to totally different costs and commercial pressures than the other, and some people will derive greater enjoyment per £ spent from y than they will x, while in other cases the reverse will be true.

The competition for the hearts and minds of 14 year old boys is a fierce one, and yes I also agree that it is one that GW are losing, but it isn't as simple as a comparison of what things cost relative to one another.

WayneTheGame wrote:
What I personally find interesting (and not in a positive way) is the notion that GW games are something other than just a facet of miniature wargaming in general. Warhammer is just one of many aspects of that hobby, not a hobby in and of itself. This argument of "GW games require a lot of money and time" isn't exclusive to GW in any way, shape or form. Miniature wargaming requires a lot of money and time, and GW still falls on the more expensive end of that spectrum.

Also, I repeatedly see this "nothing else compares" mindset only from GW/Warhammer players. Other gamers tend to have an open mind - even oldschool grognard historical gamers might have their preference for settings and games but be open to looking at other things in different settings; it's only the Warhammer crowd that immediately points out why X game can't compare to Warhammer, often for reasons that don't exactly paint Warhammer in a good light (e.g. the common "But Warhammer has LARGE armies!" argument. Yes, it does. And the game is not built for large armies and suffers accordingly).

I continually see that closed-minded, insular mentality among Warhammer players only.

I have encountered that same mindset elsewhere -

In miniature gaming I have met a few Warmahorde players that take that extreme. (Not many, but they exist.)

In RPGs... D&D - with wars between editions (most especially 4th edition) and with GURPS. (For a while I hated GURPS - not because of the mechanics, but because of the local players.)

The Auld Grump - D&D being a special case, where the opening salvo of the battle between 4th edition and 3.X was fired by the publisher.... (I rejoiced when Pathfinder overtook 4th edition D&D... I am as guilty as many others.)

Kinda glad I've been moving over and trying out other paint ranges, although sometimes I think I'll still find myself buying a specific GW paint because I'm too lazy to mix it.

That's ok though, deciding to pay a premium for a product because you've made the conscious decision that you'd rather do that than spend time and effort to achieve the same result isn't the same as buying that product because you're not prepared to look at, or even acknowledge, alternatives because reasons.

I'm wondering if future price rises will mainly serve to increase prices on items that aren't part of army releases. The demise of the old annual price increase lead to armies being largely bumped up in cost every time a new codex is released (helping push, in my opinion, the quickened release cycle with books that offer little to no new content, aka Grey Knights).

However, most of these items aren't connected to any specific release cycles, so perhaps we'll now see the annual cycle of incidental items.

WayneTheGame wrote:
What I personally find interesting (and not in a positive way) is the notion that GW games are something other than just a facet of miniature wargaming in general. Warhammer is just one of many aspects of that hobby, not a hobby in and of itself. This argument of "GW games require a lot of money and time" isn't exclusive to GW in any way, shape or form. Miniature wargaming requires a lot of money and time, and GW still falls on the more expensive end of that spectrum.

Also, I repeatedly see this "nothing else compares" mindset only from GW/Warhammer players. Other gamers tend to have an open mind - even oldschool grognard historical gamers might have their preference for settings and games but be open to looking at other things in different settings; it's only the Warhammer crowd that immediately points out why X game can't compare to Warhammer, often for reasons that don't exactly paint Warhammer in a good light (e.g. the common "But Warhammer has LARGE armies!" argument. Yes, it does. And the game is not built for large armies and suffers accordingly).

I continually see that closed-minded, insular mentality among Warhammer players only.

I can't speak for other people. For myself, I've modelled almost every scifi game system with more than 50 miniatures (that's a pretty low threshold, right? ). The problem with games with small collections isn't that they aren't fun to model, it's that I can model everything the company produces in a couple of weeks, and then I lose interest waiting 6 months for the next release.

Now, I'm happy to concede that I have more time for hobby than most -- including younger versions of myself -- but even when I was working 70+ hours a week, I still found about 10 hours for hobby every week, and even then, games with few models ran out of steam fast.

To give you an idea, if I really like a game, I can easily model 10-15 infantry sized models to a standard like this in a week or so:



Those are models that require some time in building, too. So, a game like Infinity, **in less than a month** I've painted everything the company produces to a pretty reasonable standard. It's MONTHS before they come out with anything new to model. It feels like centuries. Could I go and do some malifaux, and jump to some Cyngar, and then work on Retribution? Sure, I could. I've done it before in the past, and get urges to model PP stuff every now and then. What ends up happening is, I'm itching to add to an army, and there's nothing left for me to purchase and add on that's intelligent. I end up buying repetitive, useless junk, like 8 Major Victoria Haleys >.<

With 40k, there is *never* nothing to add on. Between Grey Knights, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Blood Angels (my current armies) and Orks, Space Wolves, Tyranids Ultramarines, Necron and Imperial Guard (my broken/incomplete collections), I can always find something to add on that I want. Another scout squad, bike squad, wave serpent, rhino, land raider, hero, wraithknight... even another tactical squad. Each one is unique, each one has character and flavor, and can be a 5 hour job or 50 hour job, and add to my collection. They're not only fun to build, but also nice on the shelf, and useful in a game. And, every couple of weeks, I share what I've finished up with my buddies who have done the same with their armies. Even within *one faction* I can keep myself busy for as long as I want -- a few years if I so choose -- and then afterwards, I can step back with satisfaction and say, "okay, these guys are awesome. Mission accomplished for now!" and then come back in a few years and tweak and add to them. This is my definition of 'fun' and 'hobby'.

So yes, really, "nothing compares" to 40k. Not because I haven't tried it, but because I've repeatedly exhaust alternatives. I do not model historicals because they hold no interest to me -- and really, I have far less interest in fantasy miniatures than I do scifi, though occasionally, I enjoy a nice dragon or mage here and there

@Talys,
All very valid points but you have to realize that you're not the norm, right?

 agnosto wrote:
@Talys,
All very valid points but you have to realize that you're not the norm, right?

I think the point wasn't that everyone should buy and paint everything, but rather that he knows from experience that all the alternatives that people recommend or say are going to "overtake" GW (or whatever) don't compare to the range that GW has.

I believe the next closest companies with model count approaching GWs range are PP and Mantic. And they're still decently far behind, but closing the gap.

Requizen wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
@Talys,
All very valid points but you have to realize that you're not the norm, right?

I think the point wasn't that everyone should buy and paint everything, but rather that he knows from experience that all the alternatives that people recommend or say are going to "overtake" GW (or whatever) don't compare to the range that GW has.

Yeah it's a nice, broad range. Also, 40k is not for everyone -- I talk LOTS of people out of it, because I know they'll be unhappy with it as a hobby or game.

From a hobby perspective, it's really nice to have a company that produces a collection that you can keep adding to your armies to without getting to the point where you have nothing to model or get silly being repetitive. Of course, not everyone feels this way, and I'm sure there are people that would rather model something like Infinity, and have it done with, and then model some other game, too. I was really just trying to address WayneTheGame's point that 40k fans are all somehow close-minded and explain why I, personally, run out of steam with other settings. I mean, personally, love all scifi models and welcome the WMH universe to grow and flourish.

And no, I fully recognize that I probably paint a lot faster than the average gamer, and spend more time modelling than the average hobbyist, though I'm sure there are tons of people who are faster, more skilled, and with much larger collections than me. But really, all that just comes with time. If you really love the hobby and spend time at it, the speed comes naturally, and eventually it's all about finding your fun, whether it's being creative, or building armies, or even writing up character sheets and backgrounds for all your space marines.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I believe the next closest companies with model count approaching GWs range are PP and Mantic. And they're still decently far behind, but closing the gap.

I agree!! And I hope their range increases and that both companies succeed. I own a lot of Mantic scenery boxes, actually. I use it to make custom Necron stuff

I also hope that PP and Mantic go multipart, posable. That greatly decreases army repetitiveness. Plus, bits are just fun.

Welllll lets just say that GW is not as reliable as it used to be in therms of continuity of a established games. Yet to be seen but WFB is rumored to be changing/shrinking down considerably, LOTR is kind of dead so I really do hope that the new dex spam spree pays off for 40k, because if it doesn't your vast catalogue may well shrink. Hence the price increase discussion and what potential problems it generates.

Personally I cannot measure things in such a way also I do not believe 40k is only for those with incredible amounts of time because, well, the definition of hobby is what activity you choose to do with your free time... regardless if its painting 1 mini or 1000 per day. You may be all happy in your personal achievements but I can as well enjoy 40k as much if not more than you by completing 1 mini per week. Everyone is different thank you sir.

The latest rumors are 3 game modes for WHFB, one of which is low model count. But who knows.

If you enjoy 40k doing one space marine a week, great!! You can also paint Menoth and never run out, too. I think most people who play 40k would be unhappy at that rate for their first army of most factions, though.

I think you misunderstood me: Hobbyists who want to build SciFi large SciFi armies and paint up a large volume if models can run out of stuff in other settings, but are unlikely to in 40k. That doesn't mean there aren't other sorts of hobbyists who like 40k for many other reasons. Or, golden daemon winners that spent 700 hours un 1 year for 1 model.

 Talys wrote:


If you enjoy 40k doing one space marine a week, great!! You can also paint Menoth and never run out, too. I think most people who play 40k would be unhappy at that rate for their first army of most factions, though.

See I do not know what most people in 40k are happy with and I do not even try to go there. Because you seem to have a predetermined definition to who does fit or not into 40k it compromises your neutral analysis. To the point like you said that you even discourage your friends to get into 40k if you believe they do not fit. That my friend Talys is something I find hard to agree with.

 Talys wrote:

I think you misunderstood me: Hobbyists who want to build SciFi large SciFi armies and paint up a large volume if models can run out of stuff in other settings, but are unlikely to in 40k. That doesn't mean there aren't other sorts of hobbyists who like 40k for many other reasons. Or, golden daemon winners that spent 700 hours un 1 year for 1 model.

Probably I did? I mean I understand your measurement for enjoyment is strongly based on how many minis you have available to paint in a short time frame and large quantities of spacemarines and other factions is what floats your boat.... If that is correct then I still need to reaffirm that is not how I measure my enjoyment sorry.

 Talys wrote:

From a hobby perspective, it's really nice to have a company that produces a collection that you can keep adding to your armies to without getting to the point where you have nothing to model or get silly being repetitive. Of course, not everyone feels this way, and I'm sure there are people that would rather model something like Infinity, and have it done with, and then model some other game, too. I was really just trying to address WayneTheGame's point that 40k fans are all somehow close-minded and explain why I, personally, run out of steam with other settings. I mean, personally, love all scifi models and welcome the WMH universe to grow and flourish.

And no, I fully recognize that I probably paint a lot faster than the average gamer, and spend more time modelling than the average hobbyist, though I'm sure there are tons of people who are faster, more skilled, and with much larger collections than me.

You, sir, appear to be a prolific modeller and painter; let me know when you run out of things to paint (not likely to happen anytime soon), I have a backlog that my 11 month old's sleeping habits won't let me get to....that and your skills FAR surpass what I call "painting".

I agree completely with your points regarding the depth of GW's product line, there is so much variety and it just continues to grow.

I think there needs to be a delineation drawn between "depth" and "volume." Remove all the "Malibu Stacie: With New Hat!!" duplicates and it isn't as large as it at first appears.

In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

And reaper has them all beat, by magnitudes.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there needs to be a delineation drawn between "depth" and "volume." Remove all the "Malibu Stacie: With New Hat!!" duplicates and it isn't as large as it at first appears.

C'mon, be fair here; you can't be in business as long as GW without producing a lot of merchandise for each army....ok most armies....some?

If you like humans, there's tons of depth, if you're into aliens....not so much.

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

And reaper has them all beat, by magnitudes.

I don't know much about Infinity, but isn't it pretty small? Like, 6-8 factions with a handful of units in each, most of which being humanoids with guns/swords?

Requizen wrote:

I don't know much about Infinity, but isn't it pretty small? Like, 6-8 factions with a handful of units in each, most of which being humanoids with guns/swords?

So just like 40k then.

 agnosto wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there needs to be a delineation drawn between "depth" and "volume." Remove all the "Malibu Stacie: With New Hat!!" duplicates and it isn't as large as it at first appears.

C'mon, be fair here; you can't be in business as long as GW without producing a lot of merchandise for each army....ok most armies....some?

If you like humans, there's tons of depth, if you're into aliens....not so much.

The Tyranid line is pretty varied imo. Eldar units all feel different, as do a lot of DEldar. Most of the Daemons (though not technically xenos, but non-human) all feel distinct from one to the other. I think there's plenty of variety, in fact, most of the human factions feel the least varied to me.

Requizen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

And reaper has them all beat, by magnitudes.

I don't know much about Infinity, but isn't it pretty small? Like, 6-8 factions with a handful of units in each, most of which being humanoids with guns/swords?

A lot more than "a handful." Check out their website. It's pretty cool and you might be surprised. Giant power armor, bikers, drones, werewolves, etc.

Requizen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

And reaper has them all beat, by magnitudes.

I don't know much about Infinity, but isn't it pretty small? Like, 6-8 factions with a handful of units in each, most of which being humanoids with guns/swords?

A dozen or so models is a decent force yes.

But its been going 10 years, they release a new model every month for each faction. With a few basic line troops as exceptions, each model is an individual type of unit in the game with its own rules (some are variants of a type distinguished by weaponry, but there is a huge number of individual units available).

My Panoceania certainly has more individual uni types than my Blood Angels, probably more than double, as an example.

Requizen wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there needs to be a delineation drawn between "depth" and "volume." Remove all the "Malibu Stacie: With New Hat!!" duplicates and it isn't as large as it at first appears.

C'mon, be fair here; you can't be in business as long as GW without producing a lot of merchandise for each army....ok most armies....some?

If you like humans, there's tons of depth, if you're into aliens....not so much.

The Tyranid line is pretty varied imo. Eldar units all feel different, as do a lot of DEldar. Most of the Daemons (though not technically xenos, but non-human) all feel distinct from one to the other. I think there's plenty of variety, in fact, most of the human factions feel the least varied to me.

The daemons have 37 different models, including kits that make more than one model (skullthrone, chariot) and named characters and books and bundles.

I got lazy and didn't count the Tyranids but there are 37 entries in the website, including bundles and books which aren't separate models of course.

Dark Eldar? 31, same as with Tyranids, too lazy to pull out the books and bundles.

That's not infinite depth. If we're talking distinct models, other games have 40k beat. Warmachine and Infinity in particular apparently do at a quick glance and I don't even play those games (so correct me if I'm wrong).

Where 40K excels(?) is in the number of models required to play when compared to these other games. This means that where you'd buy 4 or 5 of one model for another game, you're buying 20 for 40K. This will keep someone busy modeling and painting to their heart's content.

To me it is hilarious that you guys are arguing about which company this or that.

I am not confined to company A or B. I could give a rat's ass if my models are all made by Shinymodels Inc.

If I want variety, I order from Mad Robot, Puppetswar, Dreamforge, Maxmini, Heresy, Reaper, Hasslefree, Victoria, etc.

As a matter of fact, my Killzone army has products from about a dozen different companies (yeah.. I need to update that army log).

To me, this is like those people who go to a mall food court and think they have to get all their food from one of the restaurants.. Screw that.. I'm getting fries from BK, a slushy from DQ, and some Teriyaki Chicken from China Wok or whatever..

As for the prices.. lol..
yeah..
If I'm not priming with an airbrush, I'm using $3 a can hardware store primer. As for tools.. I typically use Testors or other fine grade military modeling tools. Better and cheaper.

For battle board type stuff..
Someone already mentioned Secret Weapon, there's also
http://www.kobblestone.ca/catalogue/terrain-boards/index.htm
and
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/

There's also G&G battleboards but as I have not yet received mine, I can't attest to it's quality or value.

Ainsty and a few others also have systems for covering a table but I think it might only be marginally cheaper.. but I could be mistaken.

Aegis Defense
Mr Dandy or a few others. I am not sure if Chapterhouse got theirs up and running or what.. but it's pretty easy to figure this one out without the big geedub's help.

 MLaw wrote:
To me it is hilarious that you guys are arguing about which company this or that.

I am not confined to company A or B. I could give a rat's ass if my models are all made by Shinymodels Inc.

If I want variety, I order from Mad Robot, Puppetswar, Dreamforge, Maxmini, Heresy, Reaper, Hasslefree, Victoria, etc.

As a matter of fact, my Killzone army has products from about a dozen different companies (yeah.. I need to update that army log).

To me, this is like those people who go to a mall food court and think they have to get all their food from one of the restaurants.. Screw that.. I'm getting fries from BK, a slushy from DQ, and some Teriyaki Chicken from China Wok or whatever..

As for the prices.. lol..
yeah..
If I'm not priming with an airbrush, I'm using $3 a can hardware store primer. As for tools.. I typically use Testors or other fine grade military modeling tools. Better and cheaper.

For battle board type stuff..
Someone already mentioned Secret Weapon, there's also
http://www.kobblestone.ca/catalogue/terrain-boards/index.htm
and
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/

There's also G&G battleboards but as I have not yet received mine, I can't attest to it's quality or value.

Ainsty and a few others also have systems for covering a table but I think it might only be marginally cheaper.. but I could be mistaken.

Aegis Defense
Mr Dandy or a few others. I am not sure if Chapterhouse got theirs up and running or what.. but it's pretty easy to figure this one out without the big geedub's help.

Yep, have had little to do with parts or tools or paints, etc many other places for troops and vehicles out there now, and if someone will only face a strictly GW army or the tourney only supports GW models and won't let5 me p0lay, well, I can find opponents and such where I will have someone willing to play me. Oh and MLaw I will exalt this post of yours for stating what you have....

"They may take our dollars, our credits, but they cannot take our freedom!"

 MLaw wrote:
To me it is hilarious that you guys are arguing about which company this or that.

I am not confined to company A or B. I could give a rat's ass if my models are all made by Shinymodels Inc.

If I want variety, I order from Mad Robot, Puppetswar, Dreamforge, Maxmini, Heresy, Reaper, Hasslefree, Victoria, etc.

As a matter of fact, my Killzone army has products from about a dozen different companies (yeah.. I need to update that army log).

To me, this is like those people who go to a mall food court and think they have to get all their food from one of the restaurants.. Screw that.. I'm getting fries from BK, a slushy from DQ, and some Teriyaki Chicken from China Wok or whatever..

As for the prices.. lol..
yeah..
If I'm not priming with an airbrush, I'm using $3 a can hardware store primer. As for tools.. I typically use Testors or other fine grade military modeling tools. Better and cheaper.

For battle board type stuff..
Someone already mentioned Secret Weapon, there's also
http://www.kobblestone.ca/catalogue/terrain-boards/index.htm
and
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/

There's also G&G battleboards but as I have not yet received mine, I can't attest to it's quality or value.

Ainsty and a few others also have systems for covering a table but I think it might only be marginally cheaper.. but I could be mistaken.

Aegis Defense
Mr Dandy or a few others. I am not sure if Chapterhouse got theirs up and running or what.. but it's pretty easy to figure this one out without the big geedub's help.

What if I want Blood Angels, Eldar, Imperial Knights, Skitarrii and Cult Mechanicus, Storm Eagles, Xyphers, and Sicarrans because I happen to think the models are awesome? Why is that bad?

I do understand that models can be expensive. To me though, nothing is more valuable than my time, so I would rather pay more to model what I want than to settle for something that is close to, but not quite what I want.

I have both SWM and RoB battle boards, by the way, and a couple of FW pieces. While it's expensive, the Sector Imperialis really is awesome for a city board if 40k themed is your thing.

Back on to the original topic, I confirmed with my FLGS that most items are not being price adjusted.

 Talys wrote:
I heard about the paint a while ago. Already have 2 ADL and an Imperialis board, so not really a biggie. But why ever did they increase the price of ADL? O.o

Do you think the imperialis board is worth it? Wondering if I should put in my order now with my online 25% discount store or save the cash.

gungo wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I heard about the paint a while ago. Already have 2 ADL and an Imperialis board, so not really a biggie. But why ever did they increase the price of ADL? O.o

Do you think the imperialis board is worth it? Wondering if I should put in my order now with my online 25% discount store or save the cash.

I personally love Cities of Death theme. I like all the buildings, which fit perfectly to the ground tiles and sidewalks. At $50 per board (less 25%) I think they are a good price. Most of the GW scenery, like Bastion and Skyshield, for right in, and of course thematically it is great.

As a negative, you get 3 each of 2 patterns (2 each of 3 would have been better), and they are so Imperium themed I wouldn't use them for another game. Also, 2' boards are harder to paint tha 1' boards, but on the plus side, there are a lot less seams. Finally, the carrying case is really quite nice.

Oh one more thing -- there is a lot more detail on the boards than most terrain boards, some of it with significant relief (like pipes). It looks awesome, but adds a lot to the painting time, if you want it to look nice. And, with some models, some of the terrain can interfere with where they can stand (because of a terrain feature).

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I've never seen a forum so full of financial experts

Are you serious? The only people that can afford the plasticrack for any period of time are the financially literate or their financially literate children.

GWs business practices are amazingly short sighted - and excellent comparison would be Amazon. Low profits, high demand, build customer loyalty, build market share, build the brand - compared to GW, high profits, low demand, no customer loyalty, dropping market share, burn the brand.

If you had $100 to invest in Amazon or GW, who would you choose? It really doesn't take a financial expert when blind freddy can see what is going on.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
I personally love Cities of Death theme. I like all the buildings, which fit perfectly to the ground tiles and sidewalks. At $50 per board (less 25%) I think they are a good price. Most of the GW scenery, like Bastion and Skyshield, for right in, and of course thematically it is great.

Can you compare them to secret weapons tablescapes at all? ( I am counting on you Talys)

 Talys wrote:


What if I want Blood Angels, Eldar, Imperial Knights, Skitarrii and Cult Mechanicus, Storm Eagles, Xyphers, and Sicarrans because I happen to think the models are awesome? Why is that bad?

Nobody said it was.. stop acting like someone's victimizing you because you like GW.. all I'm saying is I like the taste of all those other fish in the sea. We're both right.. or more accurately, neither of us are wrong. This isn't about you.. you aren't GW (I think). If you like GW models and don't mind the costs, then go for it. I own quite a bit of GW and have been collecting their models since the late 90s. More recently the little time and money I have for gaming is going to companies outside of GW. Sometimes it's to play their games, more and more it's to play other systems.

Mlaw you said it, it is like some people take the grievances we have with GW personal, i like most of their stuff, but my PERSONAL opinion is that compared to other companies that are in the same market and/or have similar quality GW is just overpriced.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Mlaw you said it, it is like some people take the grievances we have with GW personal, i like most of their stuff, but my PERSONAL opinion is that compared to other companies that are in the same market and/or have similar quality GW is just overpriced.

Except that many times people do word it as a personal insult. "What kind of sheep would pay these prices" "this is obviously better in every way" "I can't see any (rational) reason why someone would still support this company"

There are ways of insulting/attacking someone without being direct.

 agnosto wrote:

Dark Eldar? 31, same as with Tyranids, too lazy to pull out the books and bundles.

That's not infinite depth. If we're talking distinct models, other games have 40k beat. Warmachine and Infinity in particular apparently do at a quick glance and I don't even play those games (so correct me if I'm wrong).

Where 40K excels(?) is in the number of models required to play when compared to these other games. This means that where you'd buy 4 or 5 of one model for another game, you're buying 20 for 40K. This will keep someone busy modeling and painting to their heart's content.

That's a terrible way of counting. For example, if you buy a box of Kabalites or Wyches, you don't get 1 model. There are dozens of very distinct poses and looks, and at least a few hundred reasonably different combinations. A male kabalite with an agonizer isn't the same model as a female model with a heavy weapon, right?

How many distinct models do you see here?



Those are a squad of mine

These 2 models come from exactly the same box:


Just as these two come from the same box, but no objective person would say they are the same model:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:

 Talys wrote:


What if I want Blood Angels, Eldar, Imperial Knights, Skitarrii and Cult Mechanicus, Storm Eagles, Xyphers, and Sicarrans because I happen to think the models are awesome? Why is that bad?

Nobody said it was.. stop acting like someone's victimizing you because you like GW.. all I'm saying is I like the taste of all those other fish in the sea. We're both right.. or more accurately, neither of us are wrong. This isn't about you.. you aren't GW (I think). If you like GW models and don't mind the costs, then go for it. I own quite a bit of GW and have been collecting their models since the late 90s. More recently the little time and money I have for gaming is going to companies outside of GW. Sometimes it's to play their games, more and more it's to play other systems.

Many people ask, "why would you ever want to model GW when other companies treat their customers better, have better products, and have better prices?"

To which I answer, "Because I like GW product better, they treat me just fine every time I have contacted them, and I don't think they are more expensive than the other stuff I like to model, at least not to any degree that I care."

No, I do not work for GW. I write computer software, though these days mostly I collect royalties, hence more hobby time. I would not characterize myself as 'rich', though some might; mostly I can live a comfortable life and have the small things that bring me joy.

Like GW and PP models!

I support your arguments as much as I love your models.....makes me want to go green stuff my skitarii cloaks and my raging Heros cyber wolves(I love third part models/bits).

That is one of the things that really prevents me from getting into other ranges, it is the lack of ability to customize. I can take parts from marines, blood Angels, dark Angels, space wolves, grey Knights, etc and throw them all together and make some unique special models out of the box without needing the ability to green stuff. I tried privateer press and while the models can be very pretty I did not enjoy assembling them or the lack of variety I had in personalizing my army. With GW I can take almost any model and with some creativity turn it into the model I want on the table for the rules and not only is that allowed, but it is actively encouraged.

I am not very skilled with green stuff or painting but people still come up to me and say "wow that looks awesome, that's a really cool idea, How did you do that". It brings that social aspect into the game. Even with new painters who are still learning they are proud to show off their most recent attempt and even the most skilled painter/converter will show encouragement.

Most third party people build with the assumption of kit bashing with gw models. As a hobbyist that is what really appeals to me.

Paints is not about loyalty to GW in the slightest, it is the line my local store carries and so they is what I buy to support them. For colors he doesn't make I happily buy from other ranges(like the metallic blues and greens).

Yeah, Leth, I have pretty much exactly the same outlook to kits as you. A huge chunk of the fun is figuring out what I want to build a model as.

I am not really loyal to GW paints. I just happen to like fliptops for paintbrush, but it's not like Vallejo doesn't get a big chunk of my paint money If P3 had more basic colors, I'd probably use a lot more of it.

Just picked up Vallejo Game Paints catalogue and I am switching over to Vallejo as there is no price rise on the horizon and at $3.95 per 17ml bottle is far cheaper than the Citadel paint which as I have been told will go up to $7.00 per 12 ml pot.

So there you have it, more for less.

 Talys wrote:
Yeah, Leth, I have pretty much exactly the same outlook to kits as you. A huge chunk of the fun is figuring out what I want to build a model as.

I am not really loyal to GW paints. I just happen to like fliptops for paintbrush, but it's not like Vallejo doesn't get a big chunk of my paint money If P3 had more basic colors, I'd probably use a lot more of it.

Dude, I wanted to use all the kits so much, and I love the fluff so I built a deathwatch themed space marine force. I literally spent 2 years gathering all the necessary bits to make it happen.... Don't get me started on getting e deathwatch plastic and terminator shoulder pads that are one per kit for a kit most people don't buy.....naturally I have had to since update my needs with all he chapter specific things like tactical so coming out. But it is so much fun!!!!!!

With allies I have been able to theme my entire imperial collection around it. I have my dkok imperial guard painted as an inquisition army with tempest us scions as their sergeants. I have my skitarii which will be in stygies 8 colors since that is the xenos loving world, I build my marines and motor pool with the fw doors, but it means I can use any models that are similar between books as the same regardless of book I am running. I have a dreadnaught wing made of the different fw venerables and contemptors, a bunch of the relic vehicles(relic predator is next on he list), storm eagle, etc. just that the universe not only allows me to build an army like this, but to hen be able to put it on the table and play!!!!! So much fun

I swear, the number of converted units I have made that cost more than just actually buying the unit......

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/premium-research-buy-niche-leader-151012701.html

Maybe this link has already been posted elsewhere but fits well with the thread here. Always good to read an opinion from an 'outsider'. Clearly points the finger at pricing and general bad management decisions.

 Leth wrote:
I swear, the number of converted units I have made that cost more than just actually buying the unit......

LOL isn't that true?

This is why I love space marines -- the compatibility of parts and the amazing variety of bits, even, even if it turns out to be not a bright idea. Sounds like you have some awesome kitbashes and conversions!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Achaylus72 - holy crap that is insane. I pay about $2.80 USD for a citadel paint.

Ironically, Vallejo is more for me, at about $3.20 USD. But really, a Starbucks coffee is more than the price difference on 10 pots of paint.

@Knockagh - I just read that link. I wonder what kits he's talking about that increased 50% in price since 2010? He is right though - as more data comes in, the trends will be more meaningful. Though as a company with a tiny market cap, like GW, if it isn't losing money, management won't necessarily change their direction.

Most people point to the dire-avengers kit, that is pretty much the only one that meets the 50% boost criteria. It also depends on 50% of what. Do you mean the original release price without factoring in anything else? Many of the kits have actually gone down when they switched to plastic, not even adding in the fact that you get all of those extra bits ( I seriously coked out on the sternguard/vangaurd kits......)

GW do have a habit of halving the contents of a box while only shaving a bit off the price. That's what killed apt of the good value in LotR.

Knockagh wrote:
https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/premium-research-buy-niche-leader-151012701.html

Maybe this link has already been posted elsewhere but fits well with the thread here. Always good to read an opinion from an 'outsider'. Clearly points the finger at pricing and general bad management decisions.

Two years ago a local GW store closed for over two weeks while the one store manager was away on holiday, GW answer was to take the cost effective way out and kept the store closed.

Last year four GW stores were closed on the same weekend due to one of the stores operator getting married.

So I looked at the figures taking into account that each GW store is closed for 2 days a week and staff close their stores for an hour everyday for lunch, adding all the hours together it comes to an amazing 5,000 total days lost in trade right here in Australia.

As I said it before GW is losing money, the Australian Market alone this financial year it is expected that GW will have decreased sales of 3 million pounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Howard A Treesong wrote:
GW do have a habit of halving the contents of a box while only shaving a bit off the price. That's what killed apt of the good value in LotR.

Well I remember when Imperial Guard Cadian Shock Troops came in 20 man boxes for $50 AUD, what did GW do, half the box (I mean repackaged) and cut the cost down to $38 AUD per new box and now it costed $76 AUD for the same unit.

The resulted repackage meant that we were subject to a 52% price rise overall. IG sales suffered for a long time afterwards.

 Leth wrote:
Most people point to the dire-avengers kit, that is pretty much the only one that meets the 50% boost criteria. It also depends on 50% of what. Do you mean the original release price without factoring in anything else? Many of the kits have actually gone down when they switched to plastic, not even adding in the fact that you get all of those extra bits ( I seriously coked out on the sternguard/vangaurd kits......)

Oh, lol, are people still hung up on GW repackaging the10-man squad to a 5-man squad? I'd think that by 2015, that'd be the last thing a 40k (Eldar or otherwise) player or hobbyist would be thinking about. The current pricing isn't any different than what another faction would pay for a "better than entry level troop" model, but yeah, okay. Technically, GW didn't double the price over 5 years; they doubled the price overnight on that one box I don't really recall it happening on any other unit though.

To the point of the original topic, I don't think many items are going up in price June 1. This is good news I'm curious to see the complete price list changes; my FLGS owner didn't seem too worried, he just said, "nah, it's just a bit of this and that, no big deal".

My favorite boxes for extra bits are Death Company and Sternguard. They are so much better than, for example, Assault Marines and Command Squad (or Devastator). Can we please have new ones of those?

I agree though: there is a significant modelling value to all those bits. If I had to name one thing I loved most about 40k, that would probably be it -- plus of course, the ability to interchange the bits from one kit to another, like Sternguard lower torso with Blood Angels arms, or Blood Angels respirator head on a non BA model.

PP sells separate bits on their web store. That makes conversions pretty cheap. I just buy the bits I need.

Shame GW stopped selling bits...or allowing others to do so.

 Talys wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

Dark Eldar? 31, same as with Tyranids, too lazy to pull out the books and bundles.

That's not infinite depth. If we're talking distinct models, other games have 40k beat. Warmachine and Infinity in particular apparently do at a quick glance and I don't even play those games (so correct me if I'm wrong).

Where 40K excels(?) is in the number of models required to play when compared to these other games. This means that where you'd buy 4 or 5 of one model for another game, you're buying 20 for 40K. This will keep someone busy modeling and painting to their heart's content.

That's a terrible way of counting. For example, if you buy a box of Kabalites or Wyches, you don't get 1 model. There are dozens of very distinct poses and looks, and at least a few hundred reasonably different combinations. A male kabalite with an agonizer isn't the same model as a female model with a heavy weapon, right?

How many distinct models do you see here?

I admitted I was lazy, what more do you need?

Sure, you can pose a Kabalite a 100 different ways (maybe more for all I care) but it's still a Kabalite, same selection of guns, with or without bits and bobs and serves the same role in game. While you may model them distinctly different, they are not in fact different models just the same one posed differently. If I wear a hat in one picture and don't in another, I'm still me. Yeah, that's a silly analogy but I think you get my point.

For modelling purposes, GW models are fantastic because you get tons of bits and bobs and skulls to splash around and they are designed in such a way as to usually be very flexibly posed but an orange is an orange even if it's slightly larger or a slightly different color.

As I said before:

Where 40K excels(?) is in the number of models required to play when compared to these other games. This means that where you'd buy 4 or 5 of one model for another game, you're buying 20 for 40K. This will keep someone busy modeling and painting to their heart's content.

Most other games don't require you to have 50 of those Kabalites so that you feel that you have to pose or model them differently in order that they don't look like clones when you put them on the table. Yes, you can spend a great deal of time working on a single box of GW miniatures, and for a modeler that's a truly great thing, but I'm primarily a gamer and could care less if Kabalite #100A has a slightly different tilt of the head than Kabalite #109B.

So I guess it's all in what you want from the wargaming hobby. For you, and some others, it's all about making beautifully modeled and painted units that mesh together into a cohesive army that looks fantastic when you play the game. For me, a model is much like a chit from an old Avalon Hill box game, it's representative of something that is related to the game that I'm playing and is simply a means to an end. I don't name my models or develop backstories for them but I appreciate the work of those that do; it's just a different way of approaching things.

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

On the topic of price increases, I found an interesting little article from 2012 talking about price increases since 2004.

http://warmaster40k.com/2012/07/11/games-workshop-vs-inflation-the-true-numbers-behind-the-price-increases/

It's a little dated, coming out right around 6th. However, I feel that is more interesting in that prices has risen even more since 2012. My favorite part of the article is the speculation that rule books could reach $100 by 2020- I think at the rate we're going it's going to be way past that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

There's still more (or at least as many) unit types in an infinity faction than in a 40k one, I think?

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

I don't follow this. Because there are models for each sub unit, the range of models isn't as big?

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

There's still more (or at least as many) unit types in an infinity faction than in a 40k one, I think?

That depends on if you're breaking it down by Sectorial or Vanilla.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

I gleefully wait for the day that the inevitable collapse arrives.

Apologists have slowly shifted their arguments from, "they will bounce back and be better than ever!" to "GW is doing fine because despite trends they have not failed yet, and besides I still buy."

I actively discourage people from GW. not, in the manner that I just say, "Oh, that's expensive."

No.

I will walk over to the GW section of the local FLGS where Timmy is browsing 40K, pull mom to the side and give her the low down of what GW is really about.

Then I convince her to buy Timmy said some X-wing or Warmachine or infinity for the less than what would have been spent on GW and is an actual complete force that can be played with.

Herzlos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

Not really.

For Infinity, you have to realize that while the range appears big with lots of "distinct individual model types" it's bulked out by the fact that each individual profile for a unit tends to get at least one model.

If you were to filter out those models, it brings the size of the range down significantly.

I don't follow this. Because there are models for each sub unit, the range of models isn't as big?

To use an example:
The Neoterran Bolts are a PanOceanian unit. There are multiple profiles within the unit itself, profiles being the different weapon/skill options. Hackers get unique models, even if they have a profile that is the same as the 'standard' loadout for that unit.
So there is a model for a Neoterran Bolt with a Multi Sniper Rifle, a model for a Neoterran Bolt with a Spitfire, Neoterran Bolt with the 'Hacker visor' and Boarding Shotgun(which is what the Hacker profile comes equipped with)...in addition to three models loaded with the standard Combi Rifle and Light Shotgun.