Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Riquende wrote:
This is good news.

Every time I buy Vallejo I can feel even more smug.

How is this Good News???

I love GW.

And? Means nothing to me who loves GW, more fool them. GW are a company, not your family.

Disappointed in the spray can increases, use them regularly. Rest is shrug, does anyone honestly buy gw glue?

And isnt it possible the price increases are due to material and input costs rather than a moneygrab. The products are non model afterall bar the robg.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

The company that does not sell GW is a company that GW probably does not know about.

Only because they don't research the market.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 lord marcus wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 FSWG wrote:

So you could argue stop carrying GW. Look up Lonestar Comics. They had nine large locations in DFW. Several years ago the owner told GW he wanted a better discount, that he shouldn't have to keep paying such an increase of cost to his business. GW of course said no. He claimed if he didn't carry it GW would die in DFW. Hindsight it kinda did but not from that issue alone. So Lonestar Comics stopped carrying GW. They then took it a step to far and kicked out the GW players, if they didn't sell it, you couldn't play it there. 2 years ago Lonestar Comics closed all its doors and sold its inventory and lease to two different companies. Even my store is next to where a Lonestar Comics use to be.

Conversely look at miniaturemarket.com. So, yeah...

You mean the company that doesn't sell GW?

The company that does not sell GW is a company that GW probably does not know about.

They sold GW stuff up to about a year and half ago

GW Just sent me this:

Hello [my real name here]

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. We have not been made aware of any changes happening in June.

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.



Games Workshop
North America Customer Services

Curious.

 Korinov wrote:

ORicK wrote:
And the price per model for GW units is not even that high compared to most competitors.

Untrue.

Unless all the "most competitors" you know is Privateer Press.

Virtually everyone else is producing

a) high-quality resin models that are priced the same or a bit higher than GW plastics.
b) models cheaper than GW.

This, so much. You have to get out of the blinkered view of 'the competition' consisting of the other handful of premium-price sf/f manufacturers (which call for a far smaller count of expensive minis in their games anyway) when a lot of other companies producing plastics sell them for about 50p a figure, and even a lot of metal minis sell for as much or less than GW plastics.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
GW Just sent me this:

Hello [my real name here]

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. We have not been made aware of any changes happening in June.

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.



Games Workshop
North America Customer Services

Curious.

It would help us if you posted what you sent them, you know, for context.

I'm guessing it was a question about the price increase, but for future posts, just posting a reply with no context doesn't exactly tell us much.

On topic, I've used the GW sprays for some time, but I recently bought some army painter instead for the wider colour assortment. I already have an ADL, so I'm set there. Still funny watching the annual price increase.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:
GW Just sent me this:

Hello [my real name here]

Thanks for writing in to us, although I don’t have great news for you. We have not been made aware of any changes happening in June.

Sorry we couldn’t be any more help than this.



Games Workshop
North America Customer Services

Curious.

That's because June is 2 weeks away. Not close enough yet.

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:


which then brings the BIG question: Are they gonna shut down if they don't get good sales out of this?

I don't expect so, anytime soon. GW's in a nearly textbook death spiral as a company but there are always ways to pull out of these things or prolong the sometimes inevitable crash and burn. I fully expect this report to mirror the previous 3 reports and show a large and increasing loss of revenue, year on year but that the company will maintain a facade of health due to all the previous years' cost-cutting and efficiency improvements. My warning is that those days are done; GW has trimmed all of the corporate fat possible and all that's left is cutting bone (core elements of the business).

GW will pay a dividend if it is remotely possible to do so, because the people in charge are fully aware that the semblance of profitability combined with a healthy return to investors is the only thing that's shoring up their share price.

If they are unable to pay a dividend, those large, institutional investors will begin looking at the actual health of the company and the end result will likely make the January 2014 sell-off look like a cake walk.

So, what happens in the worst-case scenario of weak stock? The obvious result is it starts to make GW an attractive target for a hostile takeover if any large companies are shopping.

 Riquende wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:

 Riquende wrote:
This is good news.

Every time I buy Vallejo I can feel even more smug.

How is this Good News???

I love GW.

And? Means nothing to me who loves GW, more fool them. GW are a company, not your family.

Ouch! Bit harsh, but... yeah, agreed with the last bit. Don't get too attached to them, Badrukk. Take at least a look at other games. (Not just Warmachine and Infinity, either) GW might seem like the be-all, end-all to you now, but it'll help not to be too dependent on them when the novelty eventually fades. (After they have a bunch more price increases and so on. )

I skipped a page, but we're basing this all on what one person's store is saying? They could just be, I dunno, wrong.

 agnosto wrote:

 KaptinBadrukk wrote:


which then brings the BIG question: Are they gonna shut down if they don't get good sales out of this?

I don't expect so, anytime soon. GW's in a nearly textbook death spiral as a company but there are always ways to pull out of these things or prolong the sometimes inevitable crash and burn. I fully expect this report to mirror the previous 3 reports and show a large and increasing loss of revenue, year on year but that the company will maintain a facade of health due to all the previous years' cost-cutting and efficiency improvements. My warning is that those days are done; GW has trimmed all of the corporate fat possible and all that's left is cutting bone (core elements of the business).

GW will pay a dividend if it is remotely possible to do so, because the people in charge are fully aware that the semblance of profitability combined with a healthy return to investors is the only thing that's shoring up their share price.

If they are unable to pay a dividend, those large, institutional investors will begin looking at the actual health of the company and the end result will likely make the January 2014 sell-off look like a cake walk.

So, what happens in the worst-case scenario of weak stock? The obvious result is it starts to make GW an attractive target for a hostile takeover if any large companies are shopping.

People have been saying GW is in a death spiral for like a decade now. At this rate the spiral will end when I'm too old to paint anymore.

 Vermis wrote:

 Korinov wrote:

ORicK wrote:
And the price per model for GW units is not even that high compared to most competitors.

Untrue.

Unless all the "most competitors" you know is Privateer Press.

Virtually everyone else is producing

a) high-quality resin models that are priced the same or a bit higher than GW plastics.
b) models cheaper than GW.

This, so much. You have to get out of the blinkered view of 'the competition' consisting of the other handful of premium-price sf/f manufacturers (which call for a far smaller count of expensive minis in their games anyway) when a lot of other companies producing plastics sell them for about 50p a figure, and even a lot of metal minis sell for as much or less than GW plastics.

It doesn't make sense to compare GW models with anyone other than scifi-fantasy miniature manufacturers. Who cares what the price of a WW2 infantryman costs, or a civil war dude with a bayonet, or a SR-71 scale model or a bi-plane. Or a catamaran or man-o-war, for that matter. These things appeals to a totally different audience.

Without discussing quality and aesthetic, since these are highly personal and subjective in nature, Mantic and Reaper sell reasonably complete scifi/fantasy miniatures at prices that are cheaper than GW. Infinity sells a small but high quality line of infantry-sized miniatures that are price-competitive, but not cheaper, than GW. Privateer Press sells a reasonably complete line of miniatures that are as expensive or more expensive than GW. DUST is kind of incomplete, and has little model variety.

The other companies that produce scifi/fantasy can't really compete with GW in the breadth or depth from a modelling perspective. They just don't have a collection that you can really dig into. I'm not saying that there aren't good companies that have some great models; but if your thing is modelling futuristic armies with some reasonable variety of troops, vehicles, and stompy robots, the options are very limited. Guys like Anvil Industries are great, but you can't really build something substantial with them.

Also: HIPS is generally the most desirable material for hobby now, not metal. Producing metal minis is great for nostalgia, and single-piece metal makes it easy to paint, but for modelling purposes, HIPS is vastly superior to white metal. Plus, good luck trying to build something like an Imperial Knight (a 200+ piece kit), made out of metal. If you don't like kits that are 75-300 pieces that take a lot of time and care to build, stay away from GW for any sort of gaming, because every current, major faction has them (I'm not including Sisters or Inquisition or Assassins...), and practically requires them to play an averageish game, casual or otherwise.

Also, many people who have the hundreds/thousands/tens of thousands of hours to throw at hobby necessary to build such armies to resemble anything remotely like GW's vision of what a table should look like will also often have significant disposable income. Obviously, GW is catering to them, at the expense of customers who wish, for example, to just buy a few models and play a game.

Requizen wrote:
I skipped a page, but we're basing this all on what one person's store is saying? They could just be, I dunno, wrong.

On page 3 there is a store owner who talks about the price increase. If you still don't believe us wait till June

 Talys wrote:


I'm not saying that there aren't good companies that have some great models; but if your thing is modelling futuristic armies with some reasonable variety of troops, vehicles, and stompy robots, the options are very limited.

Um.....not sure that's exactly true.



Not sci-fi but...

Oh, GW will have an easy fix to prevent jumping ship:

- Sprues will have a weird dogleg at each connection to a part and you will need their special side cutters to trim the parts off safely.

- GW will change the plastics to a new "'Ard Carapace (tm)" plastic that is impervious to bonding of traditional glues but their "'Ard Bond (tm)" glue is the only one specially formulated to work.

- Oddly only their primer "'Ard Cover (tm)" will stick to the plastic as well.

I see a bright quarter for GW with the coming changes...

Curious to see the impact of WFB and LOTR on the report... Not sure if 40k can take it all even with such aggressive agenda.

 Talizvar wrote:
Oh, GW will have an easy fix to prevent jumping ship:

- Sprues will have a weird dogleg at each connection to a part and you will need their special side cutters to trim the parts off safely.

Why not just make that "Ard Carapace" plastic only cuttable by their new clippers?

 -Loki- wrote:
In response to a competitor making a cheaper modular plastic tile board, they raise the price of the one they have that doesn't sell.

Oh GW, you slay me.

Which board alternative are you referring to?

 Chute82 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
I skipped a page, but we're basing this all on what one person's store is saying? They could just be, I dunno, wrong.

On page 3 there is a store owner who talks about the price increase. If you still don't believe us wait till June

My local store just confirmed a price increase happening this June 1st.

Terror from the Deep wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
In response to a competitor making a cheaper modular plastic tile board, they raise the price of the one they have that doesn't sell.

Oh GW, you slay me.

Which board alternative are you referring to?

I'm guessing it's the Secret Weapon ones.
http://www.secretweaponminiatures.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=125

Their basic one costs $250 and doesn't include shipping (or a crazy amount of skulls)
GW's basic realm of battle costs $290 and to my knowledge qualifies for free shipping (and does have a crazy amount of skulls).
Comparing those two basic sets, assuming the GW one ships free, is probably pretty close price wise---since it costs me $15 alone to send just about any game-related package via USPS nowadays.

 Talys wrote:
It doesn't make sense to compare GW models with anyone other than scifi-fantasy miniature manufacturers. Who cares what the price of a WW2 infantryman costs, or a civil war dude with a bayonet, or a SR-71 scale model or a bi-plane. Or a catamaran or man-o-war, for that matter. These things appeals to a totally different audience.

Even if compared to other sci-fi and fantasy miniature manufacturers, as far as my opinion goes, GW still loses to most of them in terms of quality/price.

Without discussing quality and aesthetic, since these are highly personal and subjective in nature, Mantic and Reaper sell reasonably complete scifi/fantasy miniatures at prices that are cheaper than GW. Infinity sells a small but high quality line of infantry-sized miniatures that are price-competitive, but not cheaper, than GW. Privateer Press sells a reasonably complete line of miniatures that are as expensive or more expensive than GW. DUST is kind of incomplete, and has little model variety.

The other companies that produce scifi/fantasy can't really compete with GW in the breadth or depth from a modelling perspective. They just don't have a collection that you can really dig into. I'm not saying that there aren't good companies that have some great models; but if your thing is modelling futuristic armies with some reasonable variety of troops, vehicles, and stompy robots, the options are very limited. Guys like Anvil Industries are great, but you can't really build something substantial with them.

As I've already told you in the past, what's "very limited" here is your scope and knowledge on this matter.

The miniature market is growing, with more and more companies offering more and more products. The only thing a "hobbyist" needs nowadays is to have a bit of interest and free time to look things up. Do it and you may be surprised at what you may find.

Example? I'm getting these in a few days. 20€. From a new manufacturer that works with hard resin. As far as reviews go, they're quality-wise on the same level as GW's plastic kit (a bit old plastic kit now, but still from the golden age of Fantasy, head and shoulders over many of the fantasy kits GW has released in the last decade).

Also the whole "metal is for the nostalgic ones, it's outdated", I feel forced to claim BS. Have you seen the russian alternative chaos dwarves? All metal, at 2.5€ per model. Top stuff. I agree for vehicles plastic is more practical, but not really buying the Imperial Knight argument, IMO that doesn't even qualify as a "miniature".

@MWHistorian - I didn't say that SciFi and fantasy models don't exist (in whatever size), and I specifically said that lots if other companies gave great work.

What I said us that other than the companies I listed, none produce a collection of the depth and breadth of GW -- dozens of factions, thousands of kits, nearly infinite (hundreds of millions of combinations) kitting mix-and-match compatibility. It is possible, and relative to other modeling hobbies like trains and RCs, not especially expensive, to build a futuristic playable table with a a hundred to a couple of hundred distinctive, yet themed models doing battle. This is not possible with most companies that produce miniatures.

I specifically named Mantic, Reaper, and PP as reasonable alternatives for smaller scale modeling, and Infinity and DUST as limited options (as they have gaping holes in their offerings). For those with less time, these may satisfy your needs, possibly at a lower price (not really PP). If you think another company produces army-sized (in terms of distinct kits, builds, and models) SciFi miniatures, at least to the scale of PP or Mantic, I would love to hear what you had in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Korinov - I offer you the same challenge. Direct me to a company that has a catalogue that enables me to build a collection similar in scope and variety to an Apocalypse sized 40k army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Korinov - YOU may not think the Imperial knight is a miniature, but it was Games Workshop's most popular miniature of 2014. Is a scale SR-71, Blackhawk, or Millenium Falcon a miniature?

Regarding HIPS -- the majority would disagree with you. Just read most modeling boards; it's simply the most popular because it's very consistent, easiest to work with material. They are also by far the easiest to customize -- I like infinity models, but paint 'em once and that's it. I'll never buy a duplicate model/kit. I have not explored Russian alternative model sites. I'm not really interested in companies that have limited catalogues except for bits, bases, and that kind of thing.

 Talys wrote:

What I said us that other than the companies I listed, none produce a collection of the depth and breadth of GW -- dozens of factions, thousands of kits, nearly infinite (hundreds of millions of combinations) kitting mix-and-match compatibility. It is possible, and relative to other modeling hobbies like trains and RCs, not especially expensive, to build a futuristic playable table with a a hundred to a couple of hundred distinctive, yet themed models doing battle. This is not possible with most companies that produce miniatures.

I specifically named Mantic, Reaper, and PP as reasonable alternatives for smaller scale modeling, and Infinity and DUST as limited options (as they have gaping holes in their offerings). For those with less time, these may satisfy your needs, possibly at a lower price (not really PP). If you think another company produces army-sized (in terms of distinct kits, builds, and models) SciFi miniatures, at least to the scale of PP or Mantic, I would love to hear what you had in mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Korinov - I offer you the same challenge. Direct me to a company that has a catalogue that enables me to build a collection similar in scope and variety to an Apocalypse sized 40k army.

Your entire argument seems to be down to GW having a larger product line than any other company.

My counter argument is that that means nothing if those models are poorer quality at a higher price.

My dreamforge leviathans are 20% larger than a Knight ans the technical complexity blows anything GW has ever done out of the water. It cost me the same as a knight would have. I don't care that GW have 4 or 5 variants of a knight if you can't even pose their legs.

I bought a full infinity army for the same price as the 40k core rulebook. It means absolutely nothing to me that 40k has more factions than infinity does.

@MWHistorian -- First off, I do not agree that GW models are inferior to any other companies. I happen to like 95% of their releases quite a lot. They produce a style that is aesthetically highly pleasing to me.

That being said, the depth and breadth argument IS central to me. I want to model ARMIES, and you can't model an army if he collection is missing the pieces you'd expect to see in an army.

I own 2 Dreamforge leviathans and about 30ish Infinity models. They are cool! But, armies they are not and I have zero incentive to keep buying and modeling their stuff, because it just turns repetitive.

Wait so for paints it is going to cost me an extra like 5 dollars a year at the rate I use up paints? Lord have mercy that's enough to drive me out of the hobby I tell you what

 Talys wrote:
@MWHistorian -- First off, I do not agree that GW models are inferior to any other companies. I happen to like 95% of their releases quite a lot. They produce a style that is aesthetically highly pleasing to me.

That being said, the depth and breadth argument IS central to me. I want to model ARMIES, and you can't model an army if he collection is missing the pieces you'd expect to see in an army.

I own 2 Dreamforge leviathans and about 30ish Infinity models. They are cool! But, armies they are not and I have zero incentive to keep buying and modeling their stuff, because it just turns repetitive.

I wasn't talking about style aesthetics, I was talking about quality of sculpts, detail, composition and assembly.
EXP 1. Malifaux makes higher quality plastic figures, but you may not like the style. They have more detail, are cheaper, are beautiful in their lively character and movement. They're amazing and go together very well. (with some fiddly bits)
EXP 2. Infinity. The level of detail is insane in these things. On an individual basis I'd put them high above anything GW does. You may not like metal minis, I kind of don't, but once they're assembled, it makes it all worth it. The individualism in each figure is very good. And CB knows how to make human faces...especially female faces. Something GW still hasn't quite got down yet.

Now, you may not like collecting them because they're not your thing, but you can't say that GW's quality beats everyone.

 Leth wrote:
Wait so for paints it is going to cost me an extra like 5 dollars a year at the rate I use up paints? Lord have mercy that's enough to drive me out of the hobby I tell you what

If you saw $5 on the ground Iam sure you would pick it up.

@MWHistorian - when did I ever say that GW's quality beats everyone else's? I never made that claim.

I think the latest GW kits aren't inferior to anyone else's. The level of detail and complexity of the Skitarii are every bit as good as any other model on the market. But some of that is subjective. I also far prefer posable models.

I love my Infinity models, and I have a small collection of Malifaux. They are cool. They are also not capable of being assembled into an army -- which is fine, but doesn't match up to what I'm looking for as my primary hobby which really needs to be of a grander scale. New releases for stuff like infinity is like, a casual weekend hobby, and then it's done and finds a comfy spot somewhere in a display case.

 Talys wrote:
@MWHistorian - when did I ever say that GW's quality beats everyone else's? I never made that claim.

You did.
Right here.

First off, I do not agree that GW models are inferior to any other companies.

 Chute82 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Wait so for paints it is going to cost me an extra like 5 dollars a year at the rate I use up paints? Lord have mercy that's enough to drive me out of the hobby I tell you what

If you saw $5 on the ground Iam sure you would pick it up.

Sure, and I could afford the difference by buying 5 less boxes of Pasta, or being more fuel efficient on my driving for 2 gallons worth of gas.

You can throw around percentages and statistics to try and make it seem like its a big deal. It's a quarter. I lose more than that to broken Washing machines every year