Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

WayneTheGame wrote:
What I personally find interesting (and not in a positive way) is the notion that GW games are something other than just a facet of miniature wargaming in general. Warhammer is just one of many aspects of that hobby, not a hobby in and of itself. This argument of "GW games require a lot of money and time" isn't exclusive to GW in any way, shape or form. Miniature wargaming requires a lot of money and time, and GW still falls on the more expensive end of that spectrum.

Also, I repeatedly see this "nothing else compares" mindset only from GW/Warhammer players. Other gamers tend to have an open mind - even oldschool grognard historical gamers might have their preference for settings and games but be open to looking at other things in different settings; it's only the Warhammer crowd that immediately points out why X game can't compare to Warhammer, often for reasons that don't exactly paint Warhammer in a good light (e.g. the common "But Warhammer has LARGE armies!" argument. Yes, it does. And the game is not built for large armies and suffers accordingly).

I continually see that closed-minded, insular mentality among Warhammer players only.

I can't speak for other people. For myself, I've modelled almost every scifi game system with more than 50 miniatures (that's a pretty low threshold, right? ). The problem with games with small collections isn't that they aren't fun to model, it's that I can model everything the company produces in a couple of weeks, and then I lose interest waiting 6 months for the next release.

Now, I'm happy to concede that I have more time for hobby than most -- including younger versions of myself -- but even when I was working 70+ hours a week, I still found about 10 hours for hobby every week, and even then, games with few models ran out of steam fast.

To give you an idea, if I really like a game, I can easily model 10-15 infantry sized models to a standard like this in a week or so:



Those are models that require some time in building, too. So, a game like Infinity, **in less than a month** I've painted everything the company produces to a pretty reasonable standard. It's MONTHS before they come out with anything new to model. It feels like centuries. Could I go and do some malifaux, and jump to some Cyngar, and then work on Retribution? Sure, I could. I've done it before in the past, and get urges to model PP stuff every now and then. What ends up happening is, I'm itching to add to an army, and there's nothing left for me to purchase and add on that's intelligent. I end up buying repetitive, useless junk, like 8 Major Victoria Haleys >.<

With 40k, there is *never* nothing to add on. Between Grey Knights, Eldar, Dark Eldar, and Blood Angels (my current armies) and Orks, Space Wolves, Tyranids Ultramarines, Necron and Imperial Guard (my broken/incomplete collections), I can always find something to add on that I want. Another scout squad, bike squad, wave serpent, rhino, land raider, hero, wraithknight... even another tactical squad. Each one is unique, each one has character and flavor, and can be a 5 hour job or 50 hour job, and add to my collection. They're not only fun to build, but also nice on the shelf, and useful in a game. And, every couple of weeks, I share what I've finished up with my buddies who have done the same with their armies. Even within *one faction* I can keep myself busy for as long as I want -- a few years if I so choose -- and then afterwards, I can step back with satisfaction and say, "okay, these guys are awesome. Mission accomplished for now!" and then come back in a few years and tweak and add to them. This is my definition of 'fun' and 'hobby'.

So yes, really, "nothing compares" to 40k. Not because I haven't tried it, but because I've repeatedly exhaust alternatives. I do not model historicals because they hold no interest to me -- and really, I have far less interest in fantasy miniatures than I do scifi, though occasionally, I enjoy a nice dragon or mage here and there

@Talys,
All very valid points but you have to realize that you're not the norm, right?

 agnosto wrote:
@Talys,
All very valid points but you have to realize that you're not the norm, right?

I think the point wasn't that everyone should buy and paint everything, but rather that he knows from experience that all the alternatives that people recommend or say are going to "overtake" GW (or whatever) don't compare to the range that GW has.

I believe the next closest companies with model count approaching GWs range are PP and Mantic. And they're still decently far behind, but closing the gap.

Requizen wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
@Talys,
All very valid points but you have to realize that you're not the norm, right?

I think the point wasn't that everyone should buy and paint everything, but rather that he knows from experience that all the alternatives that people recommend or say are going to "overtake" GW (or whatever) don't compare to the range that GW has.

Yeah it's a nice, broad range. Also, 40k is not for everyone -- I talk LOTS of people out of it, because I know they'll be unhappy with it as a hobby or game.

From a hobby perspective, it's really nice to have a company that produces a collection that you can keep adding to your armies to without getting to the point where you have nothing to model or get silly being repetitive. Of course, not everyone feels this way, and I'm sure there are people that would rather model something like Infinity, and have it done with, and then model some other game, too. I was really just trying to address WayneTheGame's point that 40k fans are all somehow close-minded and explain why I, personally, run out of steam with other settings. I mean, personally, love all scifi models and welcome the WMH universe to grow and flourish.

And no, I fully recognize that I probably paint a lot faster than the average gamer, and spend more time modelling than the average hobbyist, though I'm sure there are tons of people who are faster, more skilled, and with much larger collections than me. But really, all that just comes with time. If you really love the hobby and spend time at it, the speed comes naturally, and eventually it's all about finding your fun, whether it's being creative, or building armies, or even writing up character sheets and backgrounds for all your space marines.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I believe the next closest companies with model count approaching GWs range are PP and Mantic. And they're still decently far behind, but closing the gap.

I agree!! And I hope their range increases and that both companies succeed. I own a lot of Mantic scenery boxes, actually. I use it to make custom Necron stuff

I also hope that PP and Mantic go multipart, posable. That greatly decreases army repetitiveness. Plus, bits are just fun.

Welllll lets just say that GW is not as reliable as it used to be in therms of continuity of a established games. Yet to be seen but WFB is rumored to be changing/shrinking down considerably, LOTR is kind of dead so I really do hope that the new dex spam spree pays off for 40k, because if it doesn't your vast catalogue may well shrink. Hence the price increase discussion and what potential problems it generates.

Personally I cannot measure things in such a way also I do not believe 40k is only for those with incredible amounts of time because, well, the definition of hobby is what activity you choose to do with your free time... regardless if its painting 1 mini or 1000 per day. You may be all happy in your personal achievements but I can as well enjoy 40k as much if not more than you by completing 1 mini per week. Everyone is different thank you sir.

The latest rumors are 3 game modes for WHFB, one of which is low model count. But who knows.

If you enjoy 40k doing one space marine a week, great!! You can also paint Menoth and never run out, too. I think most people who play 40k would be unhappy at that rate for their first army of most factions, though.

I think you misunderstood me: Hobbyists who want to build SciFi large SciFi armies and paint up a large volume if models can run out of stuff in other settings, but are unlikely to in 40k. That doesn't mean there aren't other sorts of hobbyists who like 40k for many other reasons. Or, golden daemon winners that spent 700 hours un 1 year for 1 model.

 Talys wrote:


If you enjoy 40k doing one space marine a week, great!! You can also paint Menoth and never run out, too. I think most people who play 40k would be unhappy at that rate for their first army of most factions, though.

See I do not know what most people in 40k are happy with and I do not even try to go there. Because you seem to have a predetermined definition to who does fit or not into 40k it compromises your neutral analysis. To the point like you said that you even discourage your friends to get into 40k if you believe they do not fit. That my friend Talys is something I find hard to agree with.

 Talys wrote:

I think you misunderstood me: Hobbyists who want to build SciFi large SciFi armies and paint up a large volume if models can run out of stuff in other settings, but are unlikely to in 40k. That doesn't mean there aren't other sorts of hobbyists who like 40k for many other reasons. Or, golden daemon winners that spent 700 hours un 1 year for 1 model.

Probably I did? I mean I understand your measurement for enjoyment is strongly based on how many minis you have available to paint in a short time frame and large quantities of spacemarines and other factions is what floats your boat.... If that is correct then I still need to reaffirm that is not how I measure my enjoyment sorry.

 Talys wrote:

From a hobby perspective, it's really nice to have a company that produces a collection that you can keep adding to your armies to without getting to the point where you have nothing to model or get silly being repetitive. Of course, not everyone feels this way, and I'm sure there are people that would rather model something like Infinity, and have it done with, and then model some other game, too. I was really just trying to address WayneTheGame's point that 40k fans are all somehow close-minded and explain why I, personally, run out of steam with other settings. I mean, personally, love all scifi models and welcome the WMH universe to grow and flourish.

And no, I fully recognize that I probably paint a lot faster than the average gamer, and spend more time modelling than the average hobbyist, though I'm sure there are tons of people who are faster, more skilled, and with much larger collections than me.

You, sir, appear to be a prolific modeller and painter; let me know when you run out of things to paint (not likely to happen anytime soon), I have a backlog that my 11 month old's sleeping habits won't let me get to....that and your skills FAR surpass what I call "painting".

I agree completely with your points regarding the depth of GW's product line, there is so much variety and it just continues to grow.

I think there needs to be a delineation drawn between "depth" and "volume." Remove all the "Malibu Stacie: With New Hat!!" duplicates and it isn't as large as it at first appears.

In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

And reaper has them all beat, by magnitudes.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there needs to be a delineation drawn between "depth" and "volume." Remove all the "Malibu Stacie: With New Hat!!" duplicates and it isn't as large as it at first appears.

C'mon, be fair here; you can't be in business as long as GW without producing a lot of merchandise for each army....ok most armies....some?

If you like humans, there's tons of depth, if you're into aliens....not so much.

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

And reaper has them all beat, by magnitudes.

I don't know much about Infinity, but isn't it pretty small? Like, 6-8 factions with a handful of units in each, most of which being humanoids with guns/swords?

Requizen wrote:

I don't know much about Infinity, but isn't it pretty small? Like, 6-8 factions with a handful of units in each, most of which being humanoids with guns/swords?

So just like 40k then.

 agnosto wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there needs to be a delineation drawn between "depth" and "volume." Remove all the "Malibu Stacie: With New Hat!!" duplicates and it isn't as large as it at first appears.

C'mon, be fair here; you can't be in business as long as GW without producing a lot of merchandise for each army....ok most armies....some?

If you like humans, there's tons of depth, if you're into aliens....not so much.

The Tyranid line is pretty varied imo. Eldar units all feel different, as do a lot of DEldar. Most of the Daemons (though not technically xenos, but non-human) all feel distinct from one to the other. I think there's plenty of variety, in fact, most of the human factions feel the least varied to me.

Requizen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

And reaper has them all beat, by magnitudes.

I don't know much about Infinity, but isn't it pretty small? Like, 6-8 factions with a handful of units in each, most of which being humanoids with guns/swords?

A lot more than "a handful." Check out their website. It's pretty cool and you might be surprised. Giant power armor, bikers, drones, werewolves, etc.

Requizen wrote:

NoggintheNog wrote:
In terms of distinct, individual model types, I suspect their are more in Infinity than there are in 40K.

And reaper has them all beat, by magnitudes.

I don't know much about Infinity, but isn't it pretty small? Like, 6-8 factions with a handful of units in each, most of which being humanoids with guns/swords?

A dozen or so models is a decent force yes.

But its been going 10 years, they release a new model every month for each faction. With a few basic line troops as exceptions, each model is an individual type of unit in the game with its own rules (some are variants of a type distinguished by weaponry, but there is a huge number of individual units available).

My Panoceania certainly has more individual uni types than my Blood Angels, probably more than double, as an example.

Requizen wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
I think there needs to be a delineation drawn between "depth" and "volume." Remove all the "Malibu Stacie: With New Hat!!" duplicates and it isn't as large as it at first appears.

C'mon, be fair here; you can't be in business as long as GW without producing a lot of merchandise for each army....ok most armies....some?

If you like humans, there's tons of depth, if you're into aliens....not so much.

The Tyranid line is pretty varied imo. Eldar units all feel different, as do a lot of DEldar. Most of the Daemons (though not technically xenos, but non-human) all feel distinct from one to the other. I think there's plenty of variety, in fact, most of the human factions feel the least varied to me.

The daemons have 37 different models, including kits that make more than one model (skullthrone, chariot) and named characters and books and bundles.

I got lazy and didn't count the Tyranids but there are 37 entries in the website, including bundles and books which aren't separate models of course.

Dark Eldar? 31, same as with Tyranids, too lazy to pull out the books and bundles.

That's not infinite depth. If we're talking distinct models, other games have 40k beat. Warmachine and Infinity in particular apparently do at a quick glance and I don't even play those games (so correct me if I'm wrong).

Where 40K excels(?) is in the number of models required to play when compared to these other games. This means that where you'd buy 4 or 5 of one model for another game, you're buying 20 for 40K. This will keep someone busy modeling and painting to their heart's content.

To me it is hilarious that you guys are arguing about which company this or that.

I am not confined to company A or B. I could give a rat's ass if my models are all made by Shinymodels Inc.

If I want variety, I order from Mad Robot, Puppetswar, Dreamforge, Maxmini, Heresy, Reaper, Hasslefree, Victoria, etc.

As a matter of fact, my Killzone army has products from about a dozen different companies (yeah.. I need to update that army log).

To me, this is like those people who go to a mall food court and think they have to get all their food from one of the restaurants.. Screw that.. I'm getting fries from BK, a slushy from DQ, and some Teriyaki Chicken from China Wok or whatever..

As for the prices.. lol..
yeah..
If I'm not priming with an airbrush, I'm using $3 a can hardware store primer. As for tools.. I typically use Testors or other fine grade military modeling tools. Better and cheaper.

For battle board type stuff..
Someone already mentioned Secret Weapon, there's also
http://www.kobblestone.ca/catalogue/terrain-boards/index.htm
and
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/

There's also G&G battleboards but as I have not yet received mine, I can't attest to it's quality or value.

Ainsty and a few others also have systems for covering a table but I think it might only be marginally cheaper.. but I could be mistaken.

Aegis Defense
Mr Dandy or a few others. I am not sure if Chapterhouse got theirs up and running or what.. but it's pretty easy to figure this one out without the big geedub's help.

 MLaw wrote:
To me it is hilarious that you guys are arguing about which company this or that.

I am not confined to company A or B. I could give a rat's ass if my models are all made by Shinymodels Inc.

If I want variety, I order from Mad Robot, Puppetswar, Dreamforge, Maxmini, Heresy, Reaper, Hasslefree, Victoria, etc.

As a matter of fact, my Killzone army has products from about a dozen different companies (yeah.. I need to update that army log).

To me, this is like those people who go to a mall food court and think they have to get all their food from one of the restaurants.. Screw that.. I'm getting fries from BK, a slushy from DQ, and some Teriyaki Chicken from China Wok or whatever..

As for the prices.. lol..
yeah..
If I'm not priming with an airbrush, I'm using $3 a can hardware store primer. As for tools.. I typically use Testors or other fine grade military modeling tools. Better and cheaper.

For battle board type stuff..
Someone already mentioned Secret Weapon, there's also
http://www.kobblestone.ca/catalogue/terrain-boards/index.htm
and
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/

There's also G&G battleboards but as I have not yet received mine, I can't attest to it's quality or value.

Ainsty and a few others also have systems for covering a table but I think it might only be marginally cheaper.. but I could be mistaken.

Aegis Defense
Mr Dandy or a few others. I am not sure if Chapterhouse got theirs up and running or what.. but it's pretty easy to figure this one out without the big geedub's help.

Yep, have had little to do with parts or tools or paints, etc many other places for troops and vehicles out there now, and if someone will only face a strictly GW army or the tourney only supports GW models and won't let5 me p0lay, well, I can find opponents and such where I will have someone willing to play me. Oh and MLaw I will exalt this post of yours for stating what you have....

"They may take our dollars, our credits, but they cannot take our freedom!"

 MLaw wrote:
To me it is hilarious that you guys are arguing about which company this or that.

I am not confined to company A or B. I could give a rat's ass if my models are all made by Shinymodels Inc.

If I want variety, I order from Mad Robot, Puppetswar, Dreamforge, Maxmini, Heresy, Reaper, Hasslefree, Victoria, etc.

As a matter of fact, my Killzone army has products from about a dozen different companies (yeah.. I need to update that army log).

To me, this is like those people who go to a mall food court and think they have to get all their food from one of the restaurants.. Screw that.. I'm getting fries from BK, a slushy from DQ, and some Teriyaki Chicken from China Wok or whatever..

As for the prices.. lol..
yeah..
If I'm not priming with an airbrush, I'm using $3 a can hardware store primer. As for tools.. I typically use Testors or other fine grade military modeling tools. Better and cheaper.

For battle board type stuff..
Someone already mentioned Secret Weapon, there's also
http://www.kobblestone.ca/catalogue/terrain-boards/index.htm
and
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/

There's also G&G battleboards but as I have not yet received mine, I can't attest to it's quality or value.

Ainsty and a few others also have systems for covering a table but I think it might only be marginally cheaper.. but I could be mistaken.

Aegis Defense
Mr Dandy or a few others. I am not sure if Chapterhouse got theirs up and running or what.. but it's pretty easy to figure this one out without the big geedub's help.

What if I want Blood Angels, Eldar, Imperial Knights, Skitarrii and Cult Mechanicus, Storm Eagles, Xyphers, and Sicarrans because I happen to think the models are awesome? Why is that bad?

I do understand that models can be expensive. To me though, nothing is more valuable than my time, so I would rather pay more to model what I want than to settle for something that is close to, but not quite what I want.

I have both SWM and RoB battle boards, by the way, and a couple of FW pieces. While it's expensive, the Sector Imperialis really is awesome for a city board if 40k themed is your thing.

Back on to the original topic, I confirmed with my FLGS that most items are not being price adjusted.

 Talys wrote:
I heard about the paint a while ago. Already have 2 ADL and an Imperialis board, so not really a biggie. But why ever did they increase the price of ADL? O.o

Do you think the imperialis board is worth it? Wondering if I should put in my order now with my online 25% discount store or save the cash.

gungo wrote:

 Talys wrote:
I heard about the paint a while ago. Already have 2 ADL and an Imperialis board, so not really a biggie. But why ever did they increase the price of ADL? O.o

Do you think the imperialis board is worth it? Wondering if I should put in my order now with my online 25% discount store or save the cash.

I personally love Cities of Death theme. I like all the buildings, which fit perfectly to the ground tiles and sidewalks. At $50 per board (less 25%) I think they are a good price. Most of the GW scenery, like Bastion and Skyshield, for right in, and of course thematically it is great.

As a negative, you get 3 each of 2 patterns (2 each of 3 would have been better), and they are so Imperium themed I wouldn't use them for another game. Also, 2' boards are harder to paint tha 1' boards, but on the plus side, there are a lot less seams. Finally, the carrying case is really quite nice.

Oh one more thing -- there is a lot more detail on the boards than most terrain boards, some of it with significant relief (like pipes). It looks awesome, but adds a lot to the painting time, if you want it to look nice. And, with some models, some of the terrain can interfere with where they can stand (because of a terrain feature).

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I've never seen a forum so full of financial experts

Are you serious? The only people that can afford the plasticrack for any period of time are the financially literate or their financially literate children.

GWs business practices are amazingly short sighted - and excellent comparison would be Amazon. Low profits, high demand, build customer loyalty, build market share, build the brand - compared to GW, high profits, low demand, no customer loyalty, dropping market share, burn the brand.

If you had $100 to invest in Amazon or GW, who would you choose? It really doesn't take a financial expert when blind freddy can see what is going on.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talys wrote:
I personally love Cities of Death theme. I like all the buildings, which fit perfectly to the ground tiles and sidewalks. At $50 per board (less 25%) I think they are a good price. Most of the GW scenery, like Bastion and Skyshield, for right in, and of course thematically it is great.

Can you compare them to secret weapons tablescapes at all? ( I am counting on you Talys)

 Talys wrote:


What if I want Blood Angels, Eldar, Imperial Knights, Skitarrii and Cult Mechanicus, Storm Eagles, Xyphers, and Sicarrans because I happen to think the models are awesome? Why is that bad?

Nobody said it was.. stop acting like someone's victimizing you because you like GW.. all I'm saying is I like the taste of all those other fish in the sea. We're both right.. or more accurately, neither of us are wrong. This isn't about you.. you aren't GW (I think). If you like GW models and don't mind the costs, then go for it. I own quite a bit of GW and have been collecting their models since the late 90s. More recently the little time and money I have for gaming is going to companies outside of GW. Sometimes it's to play their games, more and more it's to play other systems.

Mlaw you said it, it is like some people take the grievances we have with GW personal, i like most of their stuff, but my PERSONAL opinion is that compared to other companies that are in the same market and/or have similar quality GW is just overpriced.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Mlaw you said it, it is like some people take the grievances we have with GW personal, i like most of their stuff, but my PERSONAL opinion is that compared to other companies that are in the same market and/or have similar quality GW is just overpriced.

Except that many times people do word it as a personal insult. "What kind of sheep would pay these prices" "this is obviously better in every way" "I can't see any (rational) reason why someone would still support this company"

There are ways of insulting/attacking someone without being direct.

 agnosto wrote:

Dark Eldar? 31, same as with Tyranids, too lazy to pull out the books and bundles.

That's not infinite depth. If we're talking distinct models, other games have 40k beat. Warmachine and Infinity in particular apparently do at a quick glance and I don't even play those games (so correct me if I'm wrong).

Where 40K excels(?) is in the number of models required to play when compared to these other games. This means that where you'd buy 4 or 5 of one model for another game, you're buying 20 for 40K. This will keep someone busy modeling and painting to their heart's content.

That's a terrible way of counting. For example, if you buy a box of Kabalites or Wyches, you don't get 1 model. There are dozens of very distinct poses and looks, and at least a few hundred reasonably different combinations. A male kabalite with an agonizer isn't the same model as a female model with a heavy weapon, right?

How many distinct models do you see here?



Those are a squad of mine

These 2 models come from exactly the same box:


Just as these two come from the same box, but no objective person would say they are the same model:




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MLaw wrote:

 Talys wrote:


What if I want Blood Angels, Eldar, Imperial Knights, Skitarrii and Cult Mechanicus, Storm Eagles, Xyphers, and Sicarrans because I happen to think the models are awesome? Why is that bad?

Nobody said it was.. stop acting like someone's victimizing you because you like GW.. all I'm saying is I like the taste of all those other fish in the sea. We're both right.. or more accurately, neither of us are wrong. This isn't about you.. you aren't GW (I think). If you like GW models and don't mind the costs, then go for it. I own quite a bit of GW and have been collecting their models since the late 90s. More recently the little time and money I have for gaming is going to companies outside of GW. Sometimes it's to play their games, more and more it's to play other systems.

Many people ask, "why would you ever want to model GW when other companies treat their customers better, have better products, and have better prices?"

To which I answer, "Because I like GW product better, they treat me just fine every time I have contacted them, and I don't think they are more expensive than the other stuff I like to model, at least not to any degree that I care."

No, I do not work for GW. I write computer software, though these days mostly I collect royalties, hence more hobby time. I would not characterize myself as 'rich', though some might; mostly I can live a comfortable life and have the small things that bring me joy.

Like GW and PP models!

I support your arguments as much as I love your models.....makes me want to go green stuff my skitarii cloaks and my raging Heros cyber wolves(I love third part models/bits).

That is one of the things that really prevents me from getting into other ranges, it is the lack of ability to customize. I can take parts from marines, blood Angels, dark Angels, space wolves, grey Knights, etc and throw them all together and make some unique special models out of the box without needing the ability to green stuff. I tried privateer press and while the models can be very pretty I did not enjoy assembling them or the lack of variety I had in personalizing my army. With GW I can take almost any model and with some creativity turn it into the model I want on the table for the rules and not only is that allowed, but it is actively encouraged.

I am not very skilled with green stuff or painting but people still come up to me and say "wow that looks awesome, that's a really cool idea, How did you do that". It brings that social aspect into the game. Even with new painters who are still learning they are proud to show off their most recent attempt and even the most skilled painter/converter will show encouragement.

Most third party people build with the assumption of kit bashing with gw models. As a hobbyist that is what really appeals to me.

Paints is not about loyalty to GW in the slightest, it is the line my local store carries and so they is what I buy to support them. For colors he doesn't make I happily buy from other ranges(like the metallic blues and greens).

Yeah, Leth, I have pretty much exactly the same outlook to kits as you. A huge chunk of the fun is figuring out what I want to build a model as.

I am not really loyal to GW paints. I just happen to like fliptops for paintbrush, but it's not like Vallejo doesn't get a big chunk of my paint money If P3 had more basic colors, I'd probably use a lot more of it.