So seeing as there has been a lot of hate towards the eldar codex (it does have some cheese lol) what things should you change in the book to balance it.?

A lot. Wraithknight needs to go up at least 100pts, formation bonuses should be much weaker, either exarchs should be 1 wound like everyone else or everyone else should have 2 wounds. Less ''6's to wound mean you insta die''. 1/3 for weapons on Wind Riders.

Just to name a few

~400pt Wraithknight, Jetbikes as Fast Attack or Elites if equipped with multiple Scatter Lasers/Cannon per five models. Similar to Dark Eldar Warriors/Trueborn. I would like to see less D weapons, but that isn't even the issue these days. Too many things are too cheap and Str D doesn't bug me as much as my TYRANIDS being outnumbered..

Just increase the Wraithknight's price a bit. They're petty balanced with the other cheesy armies (Space Marines, Ad Mech, Daemonkin etc.)

Bikes: 1 scatter laser per 3 bikes.

Special weapons in Windrider squads 1 in 3. Double the point cost on Wraithknights. Dust off hands and ride into the sunset.

Yep, pretty much everything could stay the same if their point cost wasn't also super efficient compared to most other codecies. Go ahead and have the super cool special rules...just pay for them.

No scatterlasers on bikes at all. Only shuriken cannon. Shuriken cannon option +5 pts.

Wraithknight +175 pts.

Warp Spiders +5 pts

War Walkers +15 pts

Far Seer +15 pts

I'm liking the ability to fit a Windrider squad up as full HW, but I limit myself to 1 bike in 3 in the army, not the unit.
Eldar Jetbike rules are in the BRB, so it's not the codex's fault about them. But, allowing every jetbike to take a HW is too much.

I don't use the Wraithknight, but it does need making less auto-take. It is a compulsary pick in the Wraith formation, which is a pain, as it's the only way to get a Spiritseer in the 'Decurion' structure.

Formation bonuses are excessive.

Martel732 wrote:
No scatterlasers on bikes at all. Only shuriken cannon. Shuriken cannon option +5 pts.

Wraithknight +175 pts.

Warp Spiders +5 pts

War Walkers +15 pts

Far Seer +15 pts

The no scatter lasers on bikes is a good change, I think with just cannons they are still effective and better then before but not as crazy when you have a 48" range with a gun (12" move- 36" gun)

Wraithknight needs to cost more or return all wraith weaponry to last codex i.e. the Distort special rule (6's remove from game, but Invuln save allowed, no multi-wound)...D cannons artillery can still be Strength D, they are not a problem.

Shuriken weapons should be AP 3 on 6's

Monofiliment should be AP 2 on 6's

Jetbikes special weapon choices back to original 1 for every 3, scatterlasers wouldn't really be that bad if it was returned to this limit

nothing else really needs changing.


Formations:
When it comes to formations, I'm more conserned with Skyhammer Annihilation force. When combined with the other stuff Space Marines can dish out, the Eldar formations are fine the way they are. Even Adeptus machinus and Skitari combined formations are on par with Eldar and the Skyhammer. so you would need to fix all formations in all Codices not just Eldar.

Generally speaking I don't have a problem with the abilities in the book, I simply feel they are not being paid for. A Wraithguard with 'D' isn't inherently wrong, but having it as a Troops choice and cheaper than a Terminator certainly is.

Army-wide Level
Bladestorm- Justified as a concept, but AP2 is too far IMO. It should cut through armour without trivializing it completely.
Changed so that a '6' to Wound is resolved at one-lower AP.

Aspect Warriors- If we've established that WS5/BS5 is acceptable, just make it part of the base profile and adjust costs accordingly.
Formation bonuses changed to something less significant.

Craftworld Warhost- No way that 12 Wraithknights are justified . Simply move them to their own slot apart from the Wraith Constructs and impose a limit, or introduce a 'tax' of Spiritseers and Wraiths to unlock them.

Unit-specific
Windriders toned down to 1-in-3 heavy weapons, guns increased in cost. A 17pt Jetbike also seems criminal so I heavily support a 4+ save.
Scorpion's Claw reduced to AP3. Can be cranked back to AP2 but invokes Unwieldy for that turn.
Wraithguard are Slow & Purposeful so no Walls of Death. 'Honoured Dead' prevents them from being joined by any character except Spiritseers.
Warp Spiders simply need a price increase IMO, although I'm not opposed to a S5 reduction.
D-Cannons a simple, significant price increase.
Wraithknight nuked in points, easily another 150. I could also see them becoming Unique, but that one might get the Eldar playerbase justifiably upset.

Tournament results say it's already balanced.

jet bikes fast attack no more strength d flamers 400 points wraithknight

Bikes can keep their multi-specials, but they need to be FA.

And they need to be like everyone's else bikes and give only +1 T and not 2+ to saves as well.

Nor do exarch needs to get SO much more than any other team leaders in any other army.


Wraithknights should get either heavy nerf, or heavy price bump. also should not be "field at will" via wraith construct.

Beyond that, eldar will probably be alright.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

Depends on the tournament. If you go by ITC, they've changed the rules in a way to combat the the power of ranged D, for example.

Moving Bikes to Fast Attack doesn't change the Windrider formation. I think they should be limited to one scatter laser per squad, period. They should also have a 5-10 or increase per model. Wraithknights should be 400 pts base.

Couldn't in good faith only put my changes for eldar because it wouldn't make sense alone, so I'm gonna just drop my houserules here.


A roll of 6 on the Destroyer table does d3+3 hull points or wounds instead of d6+6. Saves still may not be taken.
Destroyer weapons do not roll on the vehicle damage chart in addition to the Destroyer table against normal vehicles.
When super heavy walkers and gargantuan monstrous creatures choose to trade their attacks for a single smash attack, it becomes str D instead of the normal benefits.
Beasts may embark on the transports normally, but may not move more than 6” when disembarking.
Any model that is a character in a unit receives 1 additional wound as well as any other benefits, to a max of 3W. Codex Eldar, Skitarii, and Harlequins do not gain this benefit.
Custom units created with the V.D.R. may be used, but the stats should be run by your opponent and me beforehand for approval
Storm bolters may be fired as a heavy 3 weapon instead of assault 2. The heavy 3 option may not be used for snapshots.
Monstrous Creatures only get cover if 25% obscured or more.
All missile launchers gain their flakk equivalent upgrade for free if available.
Stealth: Models that target units with the stealth usr with ranged attacks take a -1 penalty to their Ballistic skill. This replaces the normal benefit.
Shrouded: Models that target units with the shrouded usr with ranged attacks take a -2 penalty to their Ballistics skill. This replaces the normal benefit.
Ignores Cover: Units with this special rule don’t take the B.S. penalty for firing at units with the stealth or shrouded special rules. This is in addition to the normal benefit.
Any unit attacking a unit under the benefit of the “invisibility” psychic power are treated as having failed a blind test, even if they would normally be immune. This is instead of the normal benefit.
Psyckers in a unit are treated as independent models for the purposes of casting powers and generating warp charges
Flying monstrous creatures that arrive via deepstrike may choose to be swooping or gliding when they arrive.
Vehicles with the “heavy” type ignore the penalties for firing ordinance weapons
Poison and sniper weapons take no penalty to wounding gargantuan creatures
Weapons with the “primary” special rule ignore a weapon destroyed result inflicted against them on a 4+
Superheavy vehicles take damage from the vehicle damage table with the following changes
Ignore the crew shaken and crew stunned result
Immobilized results lower their speed by half. Multiple immobilized results do not lower this further, but do add the extra hullpoint loss as normal

Chaos Space Marines
Aspiring champions and Aspiring Sorcerers can take terminator armor for 15 points.
When a character from the army accepts a challenge, roll on the Chaos Boon Table immediately (instead of afterward) if the character is fighting in a challenge with a unique character, add +1 to the tens dice for determining the Boon (max of 6).
If your Warlord is an HQ or Lord of War and has purchased a mark from the Chaos Gods, then a single troop unit from this Codex gains the same mark for free. This troop may not have more than one mark, and if the warlord has multiple marks the player chooses which is given before deployment.
Kombibolters also count as a close combat weapon.
Helldrakes have a 90 degree firing arc.
Abbadon is a Lord of War.
Rhinos may be selected as a fast attack choice.
If a character becomes a Daemon Prince via the Dark Apotheosis it retains any wargear options that the Demon Prince could have chosen.
If a model with daemonic possession would consume a vehicle it is transporting, that vehicle suffers a glancing hit instead.
Ahriman may take powers from the divination school
Use the basic stat line for rhino based tanks you already have access to from the codex spacemarine book, however, your optional upgrades remain the same.
Hellbrutes receive +1 attack and may be fielded in units of up to 3
All units that begin the game in terminator armor have their points reduced by 5 each

Chaos Daemons
If your entire army is composed of daemons with the same Daemonic alignment you may treat a roll of 7 on the warpstorm as the attack power associated with your god.
Fateweaver is a Lord of War.

Tau
A smart missile system is 5 points more expensive than the current model.
Cadre fireblades may purchase one piece of support wargear.
Aun’va is a Lord of War.
Devilfish may be selected as a fast attack choice.
Vespids have Rending in melee.
Fire Warriors may not take haywire grenades, but sergeant level characters may for the points listed.
Replace skyfire warlord trait with the following: “The warlord may nominate one unit that successfully arrived from Reserves, that unit is places into ongoing reserves.
Tau Hammerheads that do not take the submunition upgrade may make their railcannons strength D for 30 points.

Eldar
Eldar jetbikes only give a 4+ armor save
Scatterlasers cost 5 points more than shuriken cannons wherever they may be chosen as an upgrade.
The Wraithnight is 395 points
Warp Spiders may only use their flicker jump special rules once per player turn and may not use it against overwatch.
The warlock conclave does not generate warp charges based on its mastery level.
The guardian battlehost and guardian stormhost formations are both able to use storm guardians and guardian defenders for their requisite guardian slots. Only the units currently listed may receive the free upgrades.

Dark Eldar
Hellions can use their jump packs in the movement and assault phase.
Wyches get their agile invulnerable save during the assault phase, not just the combat sub phase.
Units equipped with combat drugs count the turn as being one higher on the power from pain table
Named characters from the 5th edition codex may be used for the point totals listed with the following changes.
Asdrubael Vect: has the labyrinthine cunning warlord trait and an additional roll on any warlord trait table in the BRB
Lady Malys: roll twice on the warlord trait table in the dark elder codex
Duke Ssliscus: has the towering arrogance warlord trait. He also grants a reroll for scatter for any venom, raider, or ravager that enters play from deepstrike reserves
Baron Sarthonix: has the soul thirst warlord trait and doesn’t change the position of hellions in the force organization chart

Tyranids
Tyranid prime has an additional wound and may take wings (changing its type to jump infantry) for 10 points.
Models that have the instinctive behavior rule that are within Range of a synapse creature gain a +1 to feel no pain (6+ feel no pain if they did not already have the rule) to a maximum of 5+ this is in addition to the normal benefit for being in synapse range.
The Swarmlord is a Lord of War, and his ability to grant special rules to one unit now grants the rule to every unit in range.
Gene stealers have stealth.
Shadows in the warp cause all enemy psykers to manifest psychic powers at a -1 penalty (normally 5+) in addition to the penalty to Leadership.
Hive tyrants that do not take wings may gain a 2+ armor save for 20 points.
Pyrovores breath weapon gains the torrent special rule

Adepta Sorroritas
Saint Celestine is a Lord of War.
Canoness is 5 points cheaper.
Sisters Repentia gain Crusader.
The Rhino and Immolator may be selected as fast attack options.
The penitent engine has hatred.
The exorcist fires snapshots at BS2 and may be fielded in units of 1-3

Astra Militarum
Commisar Yarick is a Lord of War.
Chimera, Taurox and Taurox Primes may be selected as fast attack choices.
When a conscript unit is removed as a casualty, an identical unit goes into ongoing reserve on a 4+.
The taurox prime has the command vehicle trait
Rough riders have an additional wound each
Vox casters give the following benefit: if a command squad and the target of an order it is issuing are both equipped with vox casters, add 12 inches to the maximum command range and the units do not require line of sight

Militarum Tempestas
Any unit embarked in a flyer chosen from this detachment, and any units placed in deep strike reserves may begin arriving from reserves starting in turn one. They must be rolled for normally.
The taurox prime has the command vehicle trait
Gain the benefit of vox casters listed for astra militarum above

Orks
Cybork body gives a +1 to feel no pain rolls (or a 6+ feel no pain, if the model doesn’t already have feel no pain).
The Gorkanaught and Morkanaught add 35 points to their profile, but become superheavy walkers with 6 hull points.
Kustom Megadreds from Forgeworld have 4 hull points instead of 3.
Lootas may take a looted wagon as a dedicated transport.
Battlewagons are 90 points, looted wagons and trukks are 25 points.

Spacewolves, blood angels, and grey knights
Use the basic stat line for rhino based tanks you already have access to from the codex spacemarine book. Your optional upgrades remain the same.
Dreadnaughts gain +1 attack. Spacewolf dreadnaughts gain counter attack. Blood angel dreadnaughts gain furious charge.
All units that begin the game in terminator armor have their points reduced by 5 each
Blood angel scouts use the stat line and point values from codex spacemarine
Wolfscouts gain stealth

Necrons
The canoptic harvest formation gives feel no pain instead of reanimation protocols
Necron wraiths are toughness 4

These fix most of the balance issues I've seen, what do you think?

Mozzamanx wrote:
Generally speaking I don't have a problem with the abilities in the book, I simply feel they are not being paid for. A Wraithguard with 'D' isn't inherently wrong, but having it as a Troops choice and cheaper than a Terminator certainly is.

They're no longer able to be taken as Troops

When list-building, just take 75% of the points limit. That's what I've been doing to balance things out when I'm playing against CSM and IG.

The internal balance of the codex is pretty good, so I think just applying a handicap to the total points of your army list is probably the best approach to balancing them in casual play. Other factions need per-unit points adjustments.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
Generally speaking I don't have a problem with the abilities in the book, I simply feel they are not being paid for. A Wraithguard with 'D' isn't inherently wrong, but having it as a Troops choice and cheaper than a Terminator certainly is.

They're no longer able to be taken as Troops

However they are mandatory in a Wraith Host formation...so that's kind of a wash.

But their maximum threat range is 18" and you must purchase 3 squads of them minimum in that formation.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But their maximum threat range is 18" and you must purchase 3 squads of them minimum in that formation.

Oh what a burden! Three squads of Wraithguard, with a Wraithseer giving a bonus, and a Wraithknight as part of the formation.

The only thing that is a "but" in that formation is the Wraithlord, and that's because Wraithlords are relatively pathetic compared to Wraithguard since Wraithguard get access to Strength D but Wraithlords don't.

increase the cost of wraithknights.

increase the cost of the heavy weapon upgrades on the jetbikes.

apart from that its not too broken compared to the other 7e codices with formations.

I still say no scatterlasers on bikes. Eldar can already field too many of the best weapon in the game hands down.

Martel732 wrote:
I still say no scatterlasers on bikes. Eldar can already field too many of the best weapon in the game hands down.

It clearly should have been "one in three" jetbikes could take Scatter Lasers.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I still say no scatterlasers on bikes. Eldar can already field too many of the best weapon in the game hands down.

It clearly should have been "one in three" jetbikes could take Scatter Lasers.

That's fine and dandy, but I don't think they need them at all. One in three shuriken cannons is plenty.

Mozzamanx wrote:
.

Aspect Warriors- If we've established that WS5/BS5 is acceptable, just make it part of the base profile and adjust costs accordingly.
Formation bonuses changed to something less significant.

Craftworld Warhost- No way that 12 Wraithknights are justified . Simply move them to their own slot apart from the Wraith Constructs and impose a limit, or introduce a 'tax' of Spiritseers and Wraiths to unlock them.

I totally forgot about those formations.

The aspect formations, I've played with and against them its not a big deal.

In 1850 you can only get 5 wraithknights, but I agree. Generally all codices should be LOW is LOW. So, one reguardless of formation options.

D-flamers are only a problem when you add in a Archon with webway portal. but yes I agree the last edition distort special rule was just fine.

Eldar and DE should not be Battle Brothers. If IG and CSM aren't BBs for fluff reasons (i.e., traitor guard), I'm really not sure why Eldar and DE should be BBs, plus it would cut down on a lot of the problem people have with D-scythes.

There are just a few things that need to change. Then I would un-shelve my Eldar.

Wraithknight should be more costly.

Windrider Jetbikes: one heavy weapon per 3 models.

Wraithguard: D cannons should get nerfed.

Price increases for pretty much everything but guardians, i like that an eldar warrior or construct can be devastating, but they ARE a dieing race and you should feel limited in numbers

If there was no 6 result on all the Ranged D, then I think it'd fine.

Scat bikes are annoying, but they rarely survive the battle. So they're fine.

Just make Eldar Jetbikes lose the Relentless USR and we're off to a good start.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

Eldar are the ONLY army that can roll up to the top tables and have a chance at the gold based solely on the quality of their unit rules. IE they can just take a CAD and do great. Although eldar do currently have the disadvantage that you CANNOT surprise ANYONE. Literally everyone intent on going for a high placement at an event knows exactly what all your eldar models do and has some plan to attempt to deal with them.

EVERY other army needs a formation bonus or broken mechanics to compete with them. Gladius, war convo, decurion, ravenwing formations and reroll jink, firebase cadre, flyrant "hard to hit" spam, daemon summoning and 2++ rerolls, psychic powers like invis...

A lot of the play-at-home-and-look-at-tournament-results crowd mistakenly believe that only the top list is worthwhile. Actual experience at the top of tournaments has told me that the last couple rounds are super close matches and can usually be decided by a roll or two like who got first turn choice and if the game ends turn 5. Really the top 1/3 of lists in any given event are good enough to win it all if the heavy dice fall the right way and they play it right. If you want to see the power lists that are good enough to win, that entire section of the rankings is made up of them. (As an anecdotal, after winning 1st at a 2 day GT, I came home with my buddy who was ranked way down in 28th, and we played our tourney armies against each other. He beat me 7-5 and was 4 scouts away from tabling me.)

On topic with the eldar changes, fix point costs, exarchs really didn't need 2 wounds, or every sergeant-upgrade should get them, and I honestly think str D has too much of a meta-effect in that it super-kills high-point heavy armor like monoliths, russes, and land raiders from even attempting to show up at a TAC multi-round event. I'd like to see those vehicles return at least to playability, but the D is so effective against them that if you run across it, you're starting the game at a crippling disadvantage. Wraith weapons were fine in 6e. People still brought them, at least they did if they weren't running "seers and serpents all day e'rry day." They didn't need to be turned up to 11. I like the "honored dead" rule from above, stopping the eldar from entrusting their valuable wraiths to a crazy dark eldar character. Fire dragons don't need +1 to pen chart, again killing armor so bad that they effectively knock it out of your legitimate list choices. Bikes don't need to be troops. Even without the lasers, they get taken in the ITC meta because they're sneaky obsec units that can jump the length of the table instantly. They would still be auto take with one laser per squad. Leave them their heavies and make them a fast/heavy choice.

Here's my input for balancing Eldar:

Distortion weapons go back to 6th edition rules: No D, 6 to-wound is instant death, 6 to-pen is auto penetrating hit.

Wraithknight stays the same cost, goes back to a Monstrous Creature. Is still a Lord of War. Upgrades cost the same as in 6th edition codex, Ghostglaive is AP1 Master-Crafted and gives +1 attack.

Windriders cost 27 points base. 1 in 3 may take a Shuriken Cannon for 10 points, Scatter Laser for 15 points.

Warp Spiders cost 22 points base.

Exarch upgrade costs 20 points.

Everything else stays exactly the same, as the above are the only really OP things in the Eldar codex.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

Eldar are the ONLY army that can roll up to the top tables and have a chance at the gold based solely on the quality of their unit rules. IE they can just take a CAD and do great. Although eldar do currently have the disadvantage that you CANNOT surprise ANYONE. Literally everyone intent on going for a high placement at an event knows exactly what all your eldar models do and has some plan to attempt to deal with them.

EVERY other army needs a formation bonus or broken mechanics to compete with them. Gladius, war convo, decurion, ravenwing formations and reroll jink, firebase cadre, flyrant "hard to hit" spam, daemon summoning and 2++ rerolls, psychic powers like invis...

A lot of the play-at-home-and-look-at-tournament-results crowd mistakenly believe that only the top list is worthwhile. Actual experience at the top of tournaments has told me that the last couple rounds are super close matches and can usually be decided by a roll or two like who got first turn choice and if the game ends turn 5. Really the top 1/3 of lists in any given event are good enough to win it all if the heavy dice fall the right way and they play it right. If you want to see the power lists that are good enough to win, that entire section of the rankings is made up of them. (As an anecdotal, after winning 1st at a 2 day GT, I came home with my buddy who was ranked way down in 28th, and we played our tourney armies against each other. He beat me 7-5 and was 4 scouts away from tabling me.)

On topic with the eldar changes, fix point costs, exarchs really didn't need 2 wounds, or every sergeant-upgrade should get them, and I honestly think str D has too much of a meta-effect in that it super-kills high-point heavy armor like monoliths, russes, and land raiders from even attempting to show up at a TAC multi-round event. I'd like to see those vehicles return at least to playability, but the D is so effective against them that if you run across it, you're starting the game at a crippling disadvantage. Wraith weapons were fine in 6e. People still brought them, at least they did if they weren't running "seers and serpents all day e'rry day." They didn't need to be turned up to 11. I like the "honored dead" rule from above, stopping the eldar from entrusting their valuable wraiths to a crazy dark eldar character. Fire dragons don't need +1 to pen chart, again killing armor so bad that they effectively knock it out of your legitimate list choices. Bikes don't need to be troops. Even without the lasers, they get taken in the ITC meta because they're sneaky obsec units that can jump the length of the table instantly. They would still be auto take with one laser per squad. Leave them their heavies and make them a fast/heavy choice.

I feel like eldar need a bit of a nurff, but along those lines necrons and marines also need a bit of a tone down, dicurion is ridiculous and grav is over powered in cents

 Kanluwen wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But their maximum threat range is 18" and you must purchase 3 squads of them minimum in that formation.

Oh what a burden! Three squads of Wraithguard, with a Wraithseer giving a bonus, and a Wraithknight as part of the formation.

The only thing that is a "but" in that formation is the Wraithlord, and that's because Wraithlords are relatively pathetic compared to Wraithguard since Wraithguard get access to Strength D but Wraithlords don't.

Oh, my bad. I thought this was a "balancing eldar" thread, not a "cry about eldar" thread.

The wraithguard are fine, formations bonus for that particular formation is fine, the wraithknight at 395 points is where the only real change needs to take place.

Dman137 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

Eldar are the ONLY army that can roll up to the top tables and have a chance at the gold based solely on the quality of their unit rules. IE they can just take a CAD and do great. Although eldar do currently have the disadvantage that you CANNOT surprise ANYONE. Literally everyone intent on going for a high placement at an event knows exactly what all your eldar models do and has some plan to attempt to deal with them.

EVERY other army needs a formation bonus or broken mechanics to compete with them. Gladius, war convo, decurion, ravenwing formations and reroll jink, firebase cadre, flyrant "hard to hit" spam, daemon summoning and 2++ rerolls, psychic powers like invis...

A lot of the play-at-home-and-look-at-tournament-results crowd mistakenly believe that only the top list is worthwhile. Actual experience at the top of tournaments has told me that the last couple rounds are super close matches and can usually be decided by a roll or two like who got first turn choice and if the game ends turn 5. Really the top 1/3 of lists in any given event are good enough to win it all if the heavy dice fall the right way and they play it right. If you want to see the power lists that are good enough to win, that entire section of the rankings is made up of them. (As an anecdotal, after winning 1st at a 2 day GT, I came home with my buddy who was ranked way down in 28th, and we played our tourney armies against each other. He beat me 7-5 and was 4 scouts away from tabling me.)

On topic with the eldar changes, fix point costs, exarchs really didn't need 2 wounds, or every sergeant-upgrade should get them, and I honestly think str D has too much of a meta-effect in that it super-kills high-point heavy armor like monoliths, russes, and land raiders from even attempting to show up at a TAC multi-round event. I'd like to see those vehicles return at least to playability, but the D is so effective against them that if you run across it, you're starting the game at a crippling disadvantage. Wraith weapons were fine in 6e. People still brought them, at least they did if they weren't running "seers and serpents all day e'rry day." They didn't need to be turned up to 11. I like the "honored dead" rule from above, stopping the eldar from entrusting their valuable wraiths to a crazy dark eldar character. Fire dragons don't need +1 to pen chart, again killing armor so bad that they effectively knock it out of your legitimate list choices. Bikes don't need to be troops. Even without the lasers, they get taken in the ITC meta because they're sneaky obsec units that can jump the length of the table instantly. They would still be auto take with one laser per squad. Leave them their heavies and make them a fast/heavy choice.

I feel like eldar need a bit of a nurff, but along those lines necrons and marines also need a bit of a tone down, dicurion is ridiculous and grav is over powered in cents

Well yes. It's kind of like a mexican standoff. If we could get a few eldar things lowered, we could then look at diminishing the others. Like I said though, those silly-good formations are what is keeping like 5 different codices afloat against the space elves at the competitive level. As long as the eldar are broken, they need to stick around too.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

That will happen when its only eldar being played.

increasing the wraith knight and 1 per 3 specials on bikes seem the basic and primary complaint of eldar right now.

Seems reasonable.

No need for "one weapon in three" for bikes. the fact i has been that way doesnt mean it has to stay.

What i NEEDS is to be a freaking 5+, because no other bike in the game magically gives a +2 bonus armor.

 BoomWolf wrote:
No need for "one weapon in three" for bikes. the fact i has been that way doesnt mean it has to stay.

What i NEEDS is to be a freaking 5+, because no other bike in the game magically gives a +2 bonus armor.

Insufficient. No scatterlasers on bikes. Period. They already can spam that weapon enough.

It's not the Eldar codex itself but I find it surprising Craftworld Eldar and DE are not Allies of Convience.

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

If you actually looked at the results outside of the tournaments you yourself have been in, you wouldn't be saying that. The statistics exist.

 BoomWolf wrote:
No need for "one weapon in three" for bikes. the fact i has been that way doesnt mean it has to stay.

What i NEEDS is to be a freaking 5+, because no other bike in the game magically gives a +2 bonus armor.

Ya know

I agree. it never made sense to me how much there bikes give.

It's a legacy effect from Rogue Trader.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Eldar and DE should not be Battle Brothers. If IG and CSM aren't BBs for fluff reasons (i.e., traitor guard), I'm really not sure why Eldar and DE should be BBs, plus it would cut down on a lot of the problem people have with D-scythes.

IG and CSM aren't Battle Brothers because IG != Traitor Guard.
If they release a book called "Traitor Guard", I can basically guarantee you they would be Battle Brothers with CSM but Come the Apocalypse with the Imperium.

Eldar and Dark Eldar can(and it's been shown a lot more recently than it was before) and do put aside their differences in the name of a greater cause.



In any regards, I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it again:
Remove Dedicated Transport options from Fast Attack and you fix basically all of the issues stemming from Battle Brother level alliances.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Tournament results say it's already balanced.

No. If you actually played at tournament top tables you wouldn't even try saying this.

If you actually looked at the results outside of the tournaments you yourself have been in, you wouldn't be saying that. The statistics exist.

You apparently didn't read the part where I said that any army in the top 1/3 could easily have won in a slightly shifted universe where a few dice fell a bit different or a couple different decisions were made. Are you trying to tell me eldar don't have a tournament presence within the top 1/3 rankings?

Imperial Armour 13 has a Renegades and Heretics army list that basically is traitor guard. That book is pure win, btw.

niv-mizzet wrote:
Are you trying to tell me eldar don't have a tournament presence within the top 1/3 rankings?

Are you trying to tell us they have a disproportionate representation there?

 DarknessEternal wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:
Are you trying to tell me eldar don't have a tournament presence within the top 1/3 rankings?

Are you trying to tell us they have a disproportionate representation there?

Yes? Went back to take a quick glance at the last 13 ITC event results of at least 16 players or more. Eldar are in the top third in every single one, (and several times, it's multiple eldar filling those ranks,) and 1st place in about of third of them.

People KNOW Eldar are doing well, that's why the top lists are designed with them in mind. Because they KNOW that if they aim at the top tables, they WILL run into eldar. I'm not sure why you think they don't have a strong presence. Maybe you can throw out some data that you're sitting on that the rest of us don't know about?

Nerf bikes and Wraithknight. A tiny bit of their transport shenanigans.

 Gamgee wrote:
Nerf bikes and Wraithknight. A tiny bit of their transport shenanigans.

Yes

yes

What transport shenanigans?

 Desubot wrote:
What transport shenanigans?

Yeah I'd say some issues stem more from HQs, like Webway D-Flamers or that absurd rerollable nonsense when Vect was around.

DE could get a lot of their flavor back if you don't need to worry about trying to block combo shenanigans with Eldar.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Eldar and Dark Eldar can(and it's been shown a lot more recently than it was before) and do put aside their differences in the name of a greater cause.

To me Battle Brothers means you live together, work together, die together, and would go out for a beer if you were out of the grimdark setting. Sisters, Tempestus and Inquisition used to even share a codex. Don't DE kill Eldar for fun or something?

"Putting your differences aside in the name of a greater cause" seems more a matter of convience, or necessity. But I've never seen it in the fluff, so I don't really know where your reference comes from.

Ah Allying shenanigans which is another kettle of fish :/

I do find it humorous when IoM players complain about ally shenanigans

SGTPozy wrote:
I do find it humorous when IoM players complain about ally shenanigans

i like how you are assuming that we are complain about only eldar allying.

Personally i dont think ANY allying should be a thing.

with the exception of a few special add ons for everyone. like inqusition, assassins, harliquins, and other supplements. not full on main faction action.

Also hate the battle brothers best friends forever. its a bad thing to be able to share transports and stuff. especially humans in drop pods which should kill them off instantly.

"i like how you are assuming that we are complain about only eldar allying."

I'm not making that assumption, you're just assuming that I'm making that assumption.
It's just like how Eldar players can't really complain about the Riptide or Dreadknight when their (ex)MC is vastly superior.

I see a lot of suggestions, but let's be real here. There's not all that much in the Eldar codex that's actually broken - basically just two or three things. The rest of it is in line with the power creep of current codices. If they were to nerf Eldar in the ways some people here are suggesting - I see suggestions ranging from increasing Jetbike costs to 27 points, to making the Scorpion's Claw AP3, to bringing Exarchs back to 1 wound - all the other codices will have to be brought in line too. Can you honestly tell me that Decurion or Cent-stars or Skyhammer is worse?

Here's what I'd do, if it were just about purely balancing Eldar. WK with the D's go up to 395 points, maybe 10 points less if running the Suncannon variant. Jetbikes revert back to 1 in 3, with +15 points per scatter laser and +10 for shuriken cannons. Base cost of Wraithguard up to 50 points. That's it. People aren't afraid of Striking Scorpions or Howling Banshees or War Walkers. Good units, but hardly game-breaking. I think a lot of the complaints about the Eldar is that you can't do much to stop the rain of firepower - If Howling Banshees got 4 attacks base, I think people would prefer that to 27 point scatterbikes any day.

Just on a whole, if I had more artistic licence with the codex I'd probably change a whole lot. Bring Guardians back to WS3 BS3, with a small drop in points and +1 BS for weapons platforms, boost them to BS4 if they're in a formation (like Ulthwe Black Guardians). Making Shining Spears AP2 and give them back Hit and Run. AP3 Shuriken Weapons on a 6, with only Dire Avengers getting the AP2 variant. Farseer should probably get a small points bump, maybe by 10 or 15 points. Fire Prisms get a TL shot if they link. All Eldar vehicles go back to BS3, with the option of an upgrade that gives them BS4 (add it on to Crystal Targeting Matrix maybe). Give Howling Banshees something else, they're just so lacklustre - maybe a flat initiative penalty when fighting them (-2 or something). Make Fire Dragons 24 points and give them FNP against vehicle explosions. Just little things here and there to make some things more attractive and some other things less.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
What transport shenanigans?

Yeah I'd say some issues stem more from HQs, like Webway D-Flamers or that absurd rerollable nonsense when Vect was around.

DE could get a lot of their flavor back if you don't need to worry about trying to block combo shenanigans with Eldar.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Eldar and Dark Eldar can(and it's been shown a lot more recently than it was before) and do put aside their differences in the name of a greater cause.

To me Battle Brothers means you live together, work together, die together, and would go out for a beer if you were out of the grimdark setting. Sisters, Tempestus and Inquisition used to even share a codex. Don't DE kill Eldar for fun or something?

Not that I've seen recently.

"Putting your differences aside in the name of a greater cause" seems more a matter of convience, or necessity. But I've never seen it in the fluff, so I don't really know where your reference comes from.

Really?

The Valedor War Zone book and "Path of the Eldar" both have instances of Dark Eldar and Eldar working together pretty well.

"Path of the Eldar" even has the main character in "Path of the Outcast" joining a Dark Eldar pirate vessel's crew.

As I recall one of the Scorpions in Path of the Warrior was an ex-Incubii as well.

Dman137 wrote:
So seeing as there has been a lot of hate towards the eldar codex (it does have some cheese lol) what things should you change in the book to balance it.?

My thoughts.

Dump the formations (goes for every army really, not Eldar specific), or if they must be kept, tone down the bonuses.

Dump "runes of the farseer" or make Farseers 25pts more.

Increase Warp Spiders to 22ppm or dump "Flickerjump".

Jetbikes only get one heavy weapon per 3 models, perhaps a 5pt price increase on Scatterlasers. If they're to be kept at the current arrangement of 1 heavy weapon per Jetbike, increase cost per heavy weapon to 20pts instead of 10.

Fire Dragons lose their special "AP0" thing, this makes them essentially as capable at one-shotting vehicles as D-weapons, which is simply not warranted.

D-Scythes & Heavy D-Scythes back to S4 AP2, Wraith Cannons & D-Cannons back to S10 AP2.

Wraithknight up to ~400/425pts.

Increase the cost of bike upgrades for characters from 15 to at least 20pts in line with costs of other books (particularly given how much more capable Jetbikes are)

EDIT: also, make Dark Eldar allies of Convenience or Desperation, not BB's. The Craftworld Eldar aren't *that* trusting of their dark brethren.

@dragannia: Thank you for writing my post for me.

@Kanluwen: Technically, it was a corsair vessel captained by an ex-Comorrite.

Aside from the genuinely problematic units (bikes and wraith knights), most of the codex strong-but-fine. Most aspects could probably use a one or two point price increase just to reflect that they all mostly got better in one way or another at no points increase with this last book, but that's pretty mild.

I'm still a bit surprised when people complain about the *durability* of jetbikes. They are exactly as tough as marines standing in cover, except that they lose their fire power in order to have that 4+ cover save. And last time I checked, people were complaining about marines being squishy. And they cost more. Jetbikes are good but mostly fine until you start getting into heavy weapon issues. Making heavy weapons 1 in 3 again would probably fix them, but I wouldn't be opposed to increasing their cost back to 4th/5th edition prices. They were seldom used as anything but a squishy last minute objective grabber in 5th, but they've since gained the benefit of bladestorm, jink, and hammer of wrath. At 5th edition prices, you were paying about 150 points for 6 bikes and a couple of special guns, right? That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Regarding, exarchs being 2 wounds, I say make this a thing for all sargeants (except *maybe* noz who should get something else instead). It stinks when your character whiffs some attacks or is on the bad end of a failed save and takes all the cool gear with him. I'd be happy to see all sargeants go up a couple of points but gain a wound.

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Kanluwen: Technically, it was a corsair vessel captained by an ex-Comorrite.

Yeah, and the other book was apparently a matter of necessity, let's all join forces or the Tyranids eat the universe. I didn't read it though.

I've seen people say things like this:

You have to remember other sources as well. We know for a fact the initiation into the Incubi requires killing an Aspect Warrior. We know the greatest prize of all for a Succubus is an Autarch's helmet. We know (from Path of the Warrior) that attacks on Craftworld ships aren't particularly uncommon, and that the standard practice for captives is execution. We know (from Path of the Seer) that the Craftworlders attitude towards the Dark Eldar borders on abject terror and disgust.


So, I really never had the battle brother impression. More like "watch your back".

DE. The whole faction practically needs a rework. They don't got speed on their side anymore.

Wyldhunt wrote:

I'm still a bit surprised when people complain about the *durability* of jetbikes. They are exactly as tough as marines standing in cover, except that they lose their fire power in order to have that 4+ cover save. And last time I checked, people were complaining about marines being squishy. And they cost more.

The issue is that they have that kind of survivability on-demand, on top of probably the best mobility in the game, while also being Troops, and capable of putting out extreme firepower. Space Marines can do like two of these things. Even if we discount the firepower, the mobility is huge, the on-demand cover save doesn't require any maneuvering or sacrifice of mobility.

I just got around to looking up the ATC results from last month.

I'm used to playing eldar with ITC restrictions in place. 1 WK max that gives up maelstrom points, ranged D a little nerfed etc.

Apparently their event was significantly less restricted...and dear god.

Out of 240 armies, the top 10 performing was utterly dominated by eldar. They had 7 of the top 10 with a couple more a short ways behind, with only 34 eldar armies total. That's over 25% of the eldar armies at the event crammed into roughly the top 5% of performances. O.O

Jetbikes, Move them to FA, 1 in 3 Heavy weapons, reduce Armor save to 4+.

WK: Remove Strength D weapons, they have no place in 40k. 100pt increase MINIMUM. MC not Gargantuan.

Firedragons or whatever the feth they are called: They are melta not super fething melta, AP1 not AP0.

Not allowed to ally with DE because it doesnt make any fething sense.

All Eldar Units have a 5-10% increase in cost.

Exarchs 1 W, not 2.

Wraith: no D scythes here either, no place in 40k.

Phoenix Lords: Fine, they can be this completely OP im ok with that, but they cost an extra 30-50pts each.

I never understood why the Eldar Jetbikes conferred a 3+.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Kanluwen: Technically, it was a corsair vessel captained by an ex-Comorrite.

Yeah, and the other book was apparently a matter of necessity, let's all join forces or the Tyranids eat the universe. I didn't read it though.

I've seen people say things like this:

You have to remember other sources as well. We know for a fact the initiation into the Incubi requires killing an Aspect Warrior. We know the greatest prize of all for a Succubus is an Autarch's helmet. We know (from Path of the Warrior) that attacks on Craftworld ships aren't particularly uncommon, and that the standard practice for captives is execution. We know (from Path of the Seer) that the Craftworlders attitude towards the Dark Eldar borders on abject terror and disgust.


So, I really never had the battle brother impression. More like "watch your back".

I actually agree, certainly DE shouldn't be battle brothers. The only real faction I see as BB with Eldar is Harlequins.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But their maximum threat range is 18" and you must purchase 3 squads of them minimum in that formation.

Just FYI, if you buy them wave serpents they can hit a target 26" away with 5 d-scythes (6" transport move, 6" disembark, auto 6" battle focus, 8" flamer template). And having T6 3+ fearless jump troops (6" move+6" battle focus) with D-flamers is way better than any other jump unit in the game. For example, against AP2 a squad of 5 is only 16.7% less survivable than a dreadknight while dealing out significantly more damage, for the same cost. They are not a bad buy at all in that formation.



The irony of the thread is that there were many like it before the latest codex, and most of them (like this one) came to the same conclusions. Then the Eldar got a new codex...

Wraithknight becomes 450 points, Heavy Weapons are 1 in 3 for Windriders. Done.

Maybe just an afterword explaining some of decisions and comparing them to equally daft things in the other newer (SM, AdMech and Necron) Codexs

What changes are required to improve eldar codex?

Highlight everything. Press delete. Print. Done.

People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

It is true that Eldar and Dark Eldar loathe each other and there are plenty of instances of them coming into conflict. But in most of those cases, the fighting ended in a negotiated settlement or truce. That isn't something the Eldar or any other faction in the game normally do to their enemies. It means that, for all the bad blood on each side, Eldar and Dark Eldar respect each others' fighting prowess. For a race as arrogant as the Eldar, that speaks volumes.

Dark Eldar and Eldar don't just ally out of appreciation for each others killing prowess; they do so because they see each other as the only natural allies they have. The Eldar believe that they are the children of their gods, and that their psychic potential and knowledge coupled with some of the most advanced technology in the galaxy makes them the rightful rulers of the Milky Way. The Eldar ruled the galaxy before the Fall, and are dead set on doing so again. All other races are at best pawns to be used, at worst vermin to be exterminated.Dark Eldar, for all their cultural and societal differences from the Craftworlds, are still Eldar. That automatically puts them head and shoulders above any other race in terms of potential allies. It speaks volumes of the Eldar tendency for hubris that they would sooner consider allying with a dark and twisted mirror of their own society than with any other potential alien race.

The biggest problem is the ability to abuse Battle Brothers via the use of the other factions' dedicated transports, not the fact that Eldar and Dark Eldar can ally like this.

EDIT: Double post.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

So by that logic then IoM and Chaos should all be allies. you know, since blood is thicker then water.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

The Dark Eldar are the same Eldar that brought the dark fate upon the Eldar race that the Craftworlders sought to save themselves from through total isolation. They hate each other intensely.

There aren't even particularly many fluff examples of them fighting together. In fact, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is the DE coming to aid Iyanden, and only at the very end, out of "amusement" for the debasment that the craftworld was reduced to in having to use its dead to defend themselves.

Nobody is saying they should be "Come the Apocalypse" or anything, or that they don't have certain shared...perspectives, but they're hardly anything like the relationship between Imperial factions, and even amongst many of them the BB label is probably inappropriate.

I see alot interesting rules in the Eldar codex and don't think that they need to go. What will fix Eldar for me would be points price hike to correspond with their 'dieing race' theme. They are elite army with cheap units right now, wich do not feel right.

There's a fluff bit in the 1998 DE codex involving an Archon personally decapitating an Exarch, while his Incubi are busy murdering the Scorpions retinue.

It's hard to see them as anything other than Allies of Convience unless they start retconning all the older stuff out.

Yoyoyo wrote:
There's a fluff bit in the 1998 DE codex involving an Archon personally decapitating an Exarch, while his Incubi are busy murdering the Scorpions retinue.

It's hard to see them as anything other than Allies of Convience unless they start retconning all the older stuff out.

Indeed, there was another story, I can't remember exactly where (I'll need to look for it), of a Farseer closing off paths of the webway to prevent their potential use by the Dark Eldar.

Ghazkuul wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

So by that logic then IoM and Chaos should all be allies. you know, since blood is thicker then water.

Why do you think the Horus Heresy was such a traumatic event for mankind? "Brother fighting brother" is something that is constantly brought up.

Vaktathi wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

The Dark Eldar are the same Eldar that brought the dark fate upon the Eldar race that the Craftworlders sought to save themselves from through total isolation. They hate each other intensely.

There aren't even particularly many fluff examples of them fighting together. In fact, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is the DE coming to aid Iyanden, and only at the very end, out of "amusement" for the debasment that the craftworld was reduced to in having to use its dead to defend themselves.

Nobody is saying they should be "Come the Apocalypse" or anything, or that they don't have certain shared...perspectives, but they're hardly anything like the relationship between Imperial factions, and even amongst many of them the BB label is probably inappropriate.

Saim-Hann is noted for allying with Dark Eldar in attacks on Imperial worlds, and all three Eldar factions uniting to stop Ahriman from breaking into the Black Library. The only major conflict between the two is Uthwe fighting a Kabal over webway access, which again ended in a truce.

It's in neither side's best interest to fight the other, as all that does is kill more Eldar. The Craftworlds are too busy trying to preserve what's left of the Eldar empire, and the Dark Eldar need a constant supply of disposable slaves.

Yoyoyo wrote:There's a fluff bit in the 1998 DE codex involving an Archon personally decapitating an Exarch, while his Incubi are busy murdering the Scorpions retinue.

It's hard to see them as anything other than Allies of Convience unless they start retconning all the older stuff out.

None of that stuff has been retconned to my knowledge, but there are now plenty more examples of the two groups working together.

If Eldar and Dark Eldar are Allies of Convenience, then so are Dark Angels and Space Wolves, Ultramarines with any chapter that doesn't follow the Codex, and Flesh Tearers with everybody in the Imperium. Space Wolves are Come The Apocalypse with the Inquisition and Grey Knights. Believe me, I can go on.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

It really isn't. In order to become an Incubus, you literally must kill an Eldar aspect warrior and steal his soul-stone, otherwise you can't be one. Eldar, that race that is so vengeful and protective that it will wipe out an entire planet's population to save one Eldar life.

There are several members of my family who are complete "wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" pariahs for doing a whole lot less.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
If Eldar and Dark Eldar are Allies of Convenience, then so are Dark Angels and Space Wolves, Ultramarines with any chapter that doesn't follow the Codex, and Flesh Tearers with everybody in the Imperium. Space Wolves are Come The Apocalypse with the Inquisition and Grey Knights. Believe me, I can go on.

I think FW actually designated Carchodons as being Desperate Allies with all Imperium factions. So it wouldn't be entirely unprecedented.

 TheNewBlood wrote:


Saim-Hann is noted for allying with Dark Eldar in attacks on Imperial worlds

Is this in the current Eldar book? I'll admit I haven't read its fluff entirely.

That said, it sounds like convenience to me, you have the most xenophobic and aggressive craftworld, going out to destroy filthy "unclean", working with the crazies who are all too willing to destroy and otherwise...remove the "unclean" for their own reasons makes a lot of sense, but this hardly counts as anything indicative of "battle brothers".

and all three Eldar factions uniting to stop Ahriman from breaking into the Black Library.

Doesn't sound like BB behavior, that's something that threatens just about everyone.

The only major conflict between the two is Uthwe fighting a Kabal over webway access, which again ended in a truce.

was that the story I was thinking of? I can't remember where I read that.

It's in neither side's best interest to fight the other, as all that does is kill more Eldar.

While the Craftworlds may have some concern about killing other Eldar, the Dark Eldar really don't seem to have problems killing other Eldar, it's how they advance in rank, order their social hierarchy, join certain groups (like the Incubi), and generally just amuse themselves.

Although if we look at it another way, the reason that Eldar and Dark Eldar are battle brothers is because in the end they both have the same goal, Eldar supremacy.

Eldar are not "good". They're perfectly happy to see countless billions of the lesser races burn rather than lose one Eldar life. The only reason they'd stoop to helping (or appearing to help) a human would be if there was some greater benefit for Eldarkind.

Dark Eldar have the same worldview. They just don't have the same long term view as the Eldar, lacking Farseers as they do.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Although if we look at it another way, the reason that Eldar and Dark Eldar are battle brothers is because in the end they both have the same goal, Eldar supremacy.

Their goal is Eldar supremacy? They may make noise about such, sometimes the more aggressive groups will sometimes kill some humans ostensibly under such a banner, but the Dark Eldar are entirely content to remain in their webway pocket, with no real aspirations greater supremacy or rule,, while the craftworlds largely fight simply to survive and keep what they have from decaying further.

Dark Eldar have the same worldview. They just don't have the same long term view as the Eldar, lacking Farseers as they do.

Do they? They seem just as content to fight amongst themselves and kill each other as to fight against anyone else save for their need of slaves to sustain themselves on the pain of others on a scale greater than they can get from simply killing each other.

id probably just outright remove fortune from their magic table, replace the spell with something else. begone rerollable raves of nonsense. THE POWER OF THE EMPRAH COMPELS YOU!

everybody is getting a price jack somewhere either in wargear or in their model/unit point costs

the wraithhost is losing its wraithknight completely and we could go on and on about how we are going to alter their windriders

Wraithknights cost 1850 points

People butt hurt about jetbikes and I'm just over here with about 40 of them all with scatter lasers lol windriders don't need to be altered, they used to be 1/3 heavy weapons, that was crap seeing as only one of your guns would be in range while the 12" catapults would shoot dirt. They made the change so that eldar troops could keep up with other troops from some of the good codexs. At the end of the day yeah they can pump out a lot of shots, but there still just T4 with a 3+ save and LD8 it's a basic marine, there not fearless. I've had many of my units run off the board after losing 1 dude. So far in this whole thread all I've heard is crazy talk and pretty much everyone saying they should just make eldar crap. What everyone should do is find new strategys on how to compet against it, (if your a tournament player) we can all complain about every codex and what's Op about them, but the truth of the matter is GW isn't going to change anything, and the fact that people house rule eldar is just plain stupid. Wait until tau come out in September everyone is going to be bashing them and then the next dex and the next.. People can still have fun playing regardless of what you take. Also a side note, the rule book states that you can play games without points, so bring what ever you want and make it a crazy game.
If eldar what to compete at a tourney level then there book can stay as is, because believe me GW isn't done with releasing the cheese

Dman137 wrote:
People butt hurt about jetbikes and I'm just over here with about 40 of them all with scatter lasers lol windriders don't need to be altered, they used to be 1/3 heavy weapons, that was crap seeing as only one of your guns would be in range while the 12" catapults would shoot dirt. They made the change so that eldar troops could keep up with other troops from some of the good codexs.

That didn't seem to be a problem before the change. Eldar troops were already pretty solid in the last codex, and Jetbikes had already been a popular option in each Eldar Codex iteration for at least the last decade.

No, the change was made because GW makes rules based off of models, and *every* jetbike sprue has the heavy weapons on them (thus removing the need to include a distinct 4th heavy weapons sprue), so that's how they wrote the rules.

At the end of the day yeah they can pump out a lot of shots, but there still just T4 with a 3+ save and LD8 it's a basic marine, there not fearless.

It's a lot of shots, from across the board, at a high Strength, with incredible mobility, and with the ability to play "hide and seek" with assault-phase moves, and can be very seriously buffed in resiliency, killing power, and leadership by psyker support.

I've had many of my units run off the board after losing 1 dude.

Are you running minimum sized squads of 3? Then you're playing them as disposable MSU units, and that's just a risk you have to take with them. Just because they have vulnerabilities doesn't mean they can't still be overpowered.

So far in this whole thread all I've heard is crazy talk and pretty much everyone saying they should just make eldar crap. What everyone should do is find new strategys on how to compet against it

The "L2P" argument isn't super compelling. As I've stated in other threads, there's nothing new about fighting Eldar with the new codex, they don't have any new vulnerabilities or tricks to defeating them. There's no "trick" or "tactic" that people are just missing. The Eldar are just simply better at what they do than they were before.

Fire the staff who wrote the dex and the editor who approved it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sheit27 wrote:
Wraithknights cost 1850 points

I been asking for the WK to be bumped up 30pts like a IK Gallant.

 greyknight12 wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But their maximum threat range is 18" and you must purchase 3 squads of them minimum in that formation.

Just FYI, if you buy them wave serpents they can hit a target 26" away with 5 d-scythes (6" transport move, 6" disembark, auto 6" battle focus, 8" flamer template). And having T6 3+ fearless jump troops (6" move+6" battle focus) with D-flamers is way better than any other jump unit in the game. For example, against AP2 a squad of 5 is only 16.7% less survivable than a dreadknight while dealing out significantly more damage, for the same cost. They are not a bad buy at all in that formation.



The irony of the thread is that there were many like it before the latest codex, and most of them (like this one) came to the same conclusions. Then the Eldar got a new codex...

OK, so the wraithguard are overpowered when they are getting bonuses from two different formations, buy a 25 point per model upgrade that actually negated half the bonuses from their formation, and purchase a transport on top of that. Got it.

Nothing is wrong with the current eldar dex except the price of scatterlasers (need +5 point bump) the jetbikes need to give a 4+ save (other eldar jetbikes give a +1 save, and the Harlequin jetbikes is at a 4+ with the exact same armor design) and the wraithknight is 100 points undercosted (I updated the vehicle and monstrous creatures design rules from fourth edition, link in signature, and the wraithknight worked out that way when I was testing it against the other gargantuan)

As for D weapons, they are not that big of a deal. If you wanted to get distort right, give it the bonuses from last edition, but on a "6" to pen, it automatically causes an "explodes" result. As it stood, the str10 weapons never gave a damn about the 6 to pen because, believe it or not, there is no av17+ in the game right now.

hey consolidated multiple rules that were all trying to do the exact same thing mechanically, it isn't that big a deal unless you are running big points single model units.

No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

Burn it.

It's the only way.

I'd say a few things, like Wraith Knights... and get rid of the Strength D stuff... And the codex. Just get rid of the codex.

Just the D table. If it was: 1 - nothing happens, 2-6 - D3 hull points/wounds

The real kicker is the 6 result, without any kind of save this quickly becomes silly, but I think if it was always d3 wounds/hull points and allowed invulns and cover as per usual (since it is AP2) is much more friendly. That is a d weapon change and not a codex issue.

I think this would greatly bring the WK back into the right tax bracket. I have to assume that we're going to see more LOW SH/GMC priced this low in the upcoming codecies and FW
reprints. I just hope it's sooner than later.

That being said it is at least 50 points too cheap.

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

No, it would make the bikes fair and bring them back down to a sort of balanced state.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

No, it would make the bikes fair and bring them back down to a sort of balanced state.

But space marine bikes should stay the same.? With T5 and able to take grav.? Oh and if you take kann you can pretty much be in my deployment zone first turn.? Jet bikes are perfectly fine and what they should be. Look at the other jet bikes they all suck, thus why no one takes them

Dman137 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

No, it would make the bikes fair and bring them back down to a sort of balanced state.

But space marine bikes should stay the same.? With T5 and able to take grav.? Oh and if you take kann you can pretty much be in my deployment zone first turn.? Jet bikes are perfectly fine and what they should be. Look at the other jet bikes they all suck, thus why no one takes them

I dont play Marines and I have yet to face bikers but gak like scat spam and heavy weapon spam, especially on a chassis like the Eldar jetbike with its peek-a-boom special rules and the like is just plain broken.

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

Dman THEY ARE TROOPS NOT HEAVY FETHING SUPPORT!

You compared them to a Space Marine squad earlier on, T4 3+ save. Guess what chief? Space Marines only get 1 Heavy weapon per 10 Marines. Why do you feel your Eldar are so special they get to take a heavy weapon per model? You are exactly the reason why people hate so much on the Eldar players in this game. You think everything is fine and every other army needs to just L2P.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

Dman THEY ARE TROOPS NOT HEAVY FETHING SUPPORT!

You compared them to a Space Marine squad earlier on, T4 3+ save. Guess what chief? Space Marines only get 1 Heavy weapon per 10 Marines. Why do you feel your Eldar are so special they get to take a heavy weapon per model? You are exactly the reason why people hate so much on the Eldar players in this game. You think everything is fine and every other army needs to just L2P.

On bikes T5 andthey are so costly you're better off taking Devvies on Razorbacks. This post was good.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
No Strenght D.

Jetbikes 1 heavy weapon per squad (2 if the squad has 10 bikes), move to Fast Attack.

Wraithknight becomes a vehicle, walker. Because it's a construct with a pilot.

Some points costs adjustments across the range, plus either nerfing several formations or making them pay actual points for their provided advantages.

2 heavy weapons on the bikes per 10man squad.? I'm guessing your joking, that would make the bikes useless, what am I going to do with the other 8 12" range guns lol bikes are not a combat unit, thus why they need the guns, if anything just make it so that the bikes can only take cannons as a upgrade and lose the scatter lasers

Dman THEY ARE TROOPS NOT HEAVY FETHING SUPPORT!



You compared them to a Space Marine squad earlier on, T4 3+ save. Guess what chief? Space Marines only get 1 Heavy weapon per 10 Marines. Why do you feel your Eldar are so special they get to take a heavy weapon per model? You are exactly the reason why people hate so much on the Eldar players in this game. You think everything is fine and every other army needs to just L2P.

Yep, people rather complain then just adapt and try new strategys, space marines have all the told to deal with eldar bikes and then some, the also have a formation for free transports (yes you have to take certain things to unlock that but still) is it fair that my 1850 army needs to face a 2300pt list.?

Eldar bikes should be prohibited from taking scatterlasers at all. Eldar already have too much access to the scatterlaser, while the Imperial equivalent, the assault cannon, languishes on terrible units.

"that my 1850 army needs to face a 2300pt list.?"

If you're Eldar, you opponent should get closer to 2500.

My opinion is not exhastive of the issues, but the ones i noticed are...

undercosted wraithknight
bladestorm shouldn't be ap2 (i think ap3 would still be crazy-good)
battlefocus should only allow them to run and shoot (in that order)
Infantry based distort weapons should be 'distortion weapons' from before, not 'D-weapons'



I'd want to see how those changes affected the army and it's synergy before i started changing anything else.


Having said that, GW are obviously going through all the codecies one by one and buffing them to the eldar/necron/SM/DA kind of level, so the other option to changing the eldar 'dex is to simply wait.

edited for spelling

Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

And the choice may not be scatterlaser.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

And the choice may not be scatterlaser.

So 10 heavy weapons on a tough, fast chassis available as a troops choice, which can choose to move in the Assault phase allowing it to move out of cover, blitz the foe from across the board and then dive back in to cover or run away from the enemy if they should get too close is balanced?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

And the choice may not be scatterlaser.

So 10 heavy weapons on a tough, fast chassis available as a troops choice, which can choose to move in the Assault phase allowing it to move out of cover, blitz the foe from across the board and then dive back in to cover or run away from the enemy if they should get too close is balanced?

No, no, that restriction was on top of what you said.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Eldar bikes should be FA only and limited to one HW - maybe two at the most - per every ten.

And the choice may not be scatterlaser.

So 10 heavy weapons on a tough, fast chassis available as a troops choice, which can choose to move in the Assault phase allowing it to move out of cover, blitz the foe from across the board and then dive back in to cover or run away from the enemy if they should get too close is balanced?

No, no, that restriction was on top of what you said.

Ah, in which case I agree heavily

Actually DMan, I was thinking about it, im ok now with Eldar getting a troop choice that can take bikes and carry a heavy weapon per bike.

But only if it means that my Jetbikes (DeffKoptas) can do the exact same thing and can take a heavy weapon for each one as well. So I choose to take Killkannons as my Heavy Weapon. Are you ok with that?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Actually DMan, I was thinking about it, im ok now with Eldar getting a troop choice that can take bikes and carry a heavy weapon per bike.

But only if it means that my Jetbikes (DeffKoptas) can do the exact same thing and can take a heavy weapon for each one as well. So I choose to take Killkannons as my Heavy Weapon. Are you ok with that?

I'm of the opinion that people can take whatever they want, you want to take killcannons go for it, if your codex allows you to do something then do it. There's no point in arguing what should change, GW doesn't care what we think, all they care about is what sells and jet bikes sold like hot cakes. I'm not blind to the fact that bikes are good but like one person said, we shouldn't change anything because we have no idea what dexs are coming out and what's in store for us.

The game is evolving into basically a fast over powered game (knight armys, 12 WK etc.)

So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Making bikes only fast attack is not the right thing to do unless there is some way to make them troops for Saim Hain builds. That is an iconic craftworld that has been around for as long as I remember (back to third edition). I get the frustration in dealing with swarms of scat bikes, but the solution is not just make an iconic craftworld unplayable. If you are going to move bikes to fast attack follow up with a proposal on how to field them as troops.

One thought would be make it so that for every bike squad you take as a troop, you must take a Vyper. Vypers have always been a less than popular choice and I don't think they have ever been on people's OP list. With that restriction I'm not sure there would be a need to limit the number of heavy weapons bike squads can take.

Complaining that Eldar have always been OP and therefore deserve time being bad is petulant and immature. Everyone should be on an equal footing with a codex that has useable units from start to finish. Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down. Sure nerf may be in order from time to time but the goal should be to make something playable, not reduce it to irrelevance as penance for past sins. Can I get an amen from the chaos players? (3.5)

I'm okay throwing Saim Hain under the bus at this point. Or make it a WD formation.

The Eldar have so many more past sins than CSM, though.

"Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down."

When I say that, everyone says that would break the game. As the scoop their entire list from WK stomps.

 SirDonlad wrote:
My opinion is not exhastive of the issues, but the ones i noticed are...

undercosted wraithknight
bladestorm shouldn't be ap2 (i think ap3 would still be crazy-good)
battlefocus should only allow them to run and shoot (in that order)
Infantry based distort weapons should be 'distortion weapons' from before, not 'D-weapons'



I'd want to see how those changes affected the army and it's synergy before i started changing anything else.


Having said that, GW are obviously going through all the codecies one by one and buffing them to the eldar/necron/SM/DA kind of level, so the other option to changing the eldar 'dex is to simply wait.

edited for spelling

1. Yes, the Wraithknight is undercosted. But the bigger problem is its status as a Gargantuan Creature. Either it needs to become as expensive as other superheavies/gargantuans (not including Imperial Knights), or it needs to not be a gargantuan.

2. Nope. Bladesotrm should stay as it is. Bladestorm is there to give the basic Eldar infantry gun a reason to compensate for its short range and the squad's small number of special weapons. Otherwise Eldar infantry are stuck with the second worst basic gun for their points cost, and without any analogue to orders to make it better. The main reason people complain about Bladestorm is on Shuriken Cannons coupled with Scatbikers.

3. Nope v2.0 Battle Focus balances out Eldar infantry with bikes. Nerf Battle Focus, and you nerf all Eldar units that aren't bikes or vehicles. Eldar infantry are faster to compensate for their low durability.

4. The problem is not the strength of D-weapons in the Eldar codex, but the level of access to them. I would argue for changing all Distortion weapons back to their 6th edition rules. They would still be quite powerful, but not D-Weapon nasty.

Also, @Martel732: The Imperium equivalent of the Scatter Laser is not the Assault Cannon. It is the Multilaser.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Then pick a new army if your dex blows, are we suppose to feel sorry for you.? Lol

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Then pick a new army if your dex blows, are we suppose to feel sorry for you.? Lol

Sorry, I'm not giving GW that kind of jack. They haven't earned the right to my money in a long, long time.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 SirDonlad wrote:
My opinion is not exhastive of the issues, but the ones i noticed are...

undercosted wraithknight
bladestorm shouldn't be ap2 (i think ap3 would still be crazy-good)
battlefocus should only allow them to run and shoot (in that order)
Infantry based distort weapons should be 'distortion weapons' from before, not 'D-weapons'



I'd want to see how those changes affected the army and it's synergy before i started changing anything else.


Having said that, GW are obviously going through all the codecies one by one and buffing them to the eldar/necron/SM/DA kind of level, so the other option to changing the eldar 'dex is to simply wait.

edited for spelling

1. Yes, the Wraithknight is undercosted. But the bigger problem is its status as a Gargantuan Creature. Either it needs to become as expensive as other superheavies/gargantuans (not including Imperial Knights), or it needs to not be a gargantuan.

2. Nope. Bladesotrm should stay as it is. Bladestorm is there to give the basic Eldar infantry gun a reason to compensate for its short range and the squad's small number of special weapons. Otherwise Eldar infantry are stuck with the second worst basic gun for their points cost, and without any analogue to orders to make it better. The main reason people complain about Bladestorm is on Shuriken Cannons coupled with Scatbikers.

3. Nope v2.0 Battle Focus balances out Eldar infantry with bikes. Nerf Battle Focus, and you nerf all Eldar units that aren't bikes or vehicles. Eldar infantry are faster to compensate for their low durability.

4. The problem is not the strength of D-weapons in the Eldar codex, but the level of access to them. I would argue for changing all Distortion weapons back to their 6th edition rules. They would still be quite powerful, but not D-Weapon nasty.

1: even making the WK a MC it is still undercosted for what it brings to the table. it needs to go up 100 pts and lose GC

2: Bladestorm is simply put, stupid. Its just another bit of extra eldar douche baggery that doesn't need to exist.

3: they are infantry, they aren't supposed to be as mobile as a bike. Or maybe let the Eldar player use it 1 time per game to make it more believable.

4: The problem is D weapons, D weapons belong in Apoc not 40k. They break the game and make it so nobody wants to take any kind of expensive model or vehicle.


If you cant figure this out i'll spell it out. Eldar have Tons of D weapons so that players feel they shouldn't take expensive units or vehicles because they get blown away to quickly, so your more inclined to take lots of Infantry or squadrons of bikes....and then the Eldar get Scat Bikes, so if you do that you are now being shot off the board with tons of Scatter laser shots.

The Eldar Codex was designed by an anal dwelling butt monkey who didn't want anyone to ever be able to beat his precious eldar.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

Complaining that Eldar have always been OP and therefore deserve time being bad is petulant and immature. Everyone should be on an equal footing with a codex that has useable units from start to finish. Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down. Sure nerf may be in order from time to time but the goal should be to make something playable, not reduce it to irrelevance as penance for past sins. Can I get an amen from the chaos players? (3.5)

Or how about we nerf the big nasty four codex's rather than just letting power bloat take its toll on the game?

And whilst we are at it just nerf the hell out of Eldar. An edition at bottom place would not hurt them and would be a nice break for the rest of us.

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Then pick a new army if your dex blows, are we suppose to feel sorry for you.? Lol

Again, you are the reason everyone hates Eldar right now. "My codex is awesome, I beat everyone without having to use skill".

This is why so many people are jumping on the "Ban Eldar" band wagon.

I wouldn't mind it so bad but all the D weapons and 2+ re-rollables are silly. Have a friend of mine who built up his Eldar army and refuses to play with it very often because of how OP it seems.

Martel732 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Then pick a new army if your dex blows, are we suppose to feel sorry for you.? Lol

Sorry, I'm not giving GW that kind of jack. They haven't earned the right to my money in a long, long time.

Fair enough

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Then pick a new army if your dex blows, are we suppose to feel sorry for you.? Lol

How about you try playing a different army if you're so convinced that others can stand up to Eldar? Bonus points if it's with a codex that was released before Necrons. Secret bonus points if it's from a 6th edition codex (that isn't Tau) or Orks.

Ghazkuul wrote:1: even making the WK a MC it is still undercosted for what it brings to the table. it needs to go up 100 pts and lose GC

2: Bladestorm is simply put, stupid. Its just another bit of extra eldar douche baggery that doesn't need to exist.

3: they are infantry, they aren't supposed to be as mobile as a bike. Or maybe let the Eldar player use it 1 time per game to make it more believable.

4: The problem is D weapons, D weapons belong in Apoc not 40k. They break the game and make it so nobody wants to take any kind of expensive model or vehicle.


If you cant figure this out i'll spell it out. Eldar have Tons of D weapons so that players feel they shouldn't take expensive units or vehicles because they get blown away to quickly, so your more inclined to take lots of Infantry or squadrons of bikes....and then the Eldar get Scat Bikes, so if you do that you are now being shot off the board with tons of Scatter laser shots.

The Eldar Codex was designed by an anal dwelling butt monkey who didn't want anyone to ever be able to beat his precious eldar.

A model can't be a Monstrous Creature and a Gargantuan Creature at the same time. If Distortion weapons are changed back and the Wraithknight becomes an MC, it will be about where it should have been in terms of points cost when it was first released.

In a world where Grav, Gauss, and Assault 3 Plasmaguns exist, Bladestorm is tame by comparison. It compensates for Eldar infantry's lack of durability and limited wargear.

Eldar infantry can move a total distance equivalent to bikes, but don't have +1 Toughness, can't charge after moving 12", can't turbo-boost, and can't Jink. Sounds balanced to me. Besides, Eldar are supposed to be faster on foot than other races due to their higher Initiative.

I'm not saying that D-weapons and Scatbikers aren't a major problem. They are, and they need some serious changing along with the Wraithknight. But the rest of the Eldar codex is aobut fine where it is in power level, if needing some points increases on a few units.

The person you're thinking of sounds suspiciously similar to Phil Kelley...

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you are ok with it only if the codex says its ok, well my codex blows and it came out in 7th edition so IM not getting a new one for A LONG TIME.

Then pick a new army if your dex blows, are we suppose to feel sorry for you.? Lol

How about you try playing a different army if you're so convinced that others can stand up to Eldar? Bonus points if it's with a codex that was released before Necrons. Secret bonus points if it's from a 6th edition codex (that isn't Tau) or Orks.

Ghazkuul wrote:1: even making the WK a MC it is still undercosted for what it brings to the table. it needs to go up 100 pts and lose GC

2: Bladestorm is simply put, stupid. Its just another bit of extra eldar douche baggery that doesn't need to exist.

3: they are infantry, they aren't supposed to be as mobile as a bike. Or maybe let the Eldar player use it 1 time per game to make it more believable.

4: The problem is D weapons, D weapons belong in Apoc not 40k. They break the game and make it so nobody wants to take any kind of expensive model or vehicle.


If you cant figure this out i'll spell it out. Eldar have Tons of D weapons so that players feel they shouldn't take expensive units or vehicles because they get blown away to quickly, so your more inclined to take lots of Infantry or squadrons of bikes....and then the Eldar get Scat Bikes, so if you do that you are now being shot off the board with tons of Scatter laser shots.

The Eldar Codex was designed by an anal dwelling butt monkey who didn't want anyone to ever be able to beat his precious eldar.

A model can't be a Monstrous Creature and a Gargantuan Creature at the same time. If Distortion weapons are changed back and the Wraithknight becomes an MC, it will be about where it should have been in terms of points cost when it was first released.

In a world where Grav, Gauss, and Assault 3 Plasmaguns exist, Bladestorm is tame by comparison. It compensates for Eldar infantry's lack of durability and limited wargear.

Eldar infantry can move a total distance equivalent to bikes, but don't have +1 Toughness, can't charge after moving 12", can't turbo-boost, and can't Jink. Sounds balanced to me. Besides, Eldar are supposed to be faster on foot than other races due to their higher Initiative.

I'm not saying that D-weapons and Scatbikers aren't a major problem. They are, and they need some serious changing along with the Wraithknight. But the rest of the Eldar codex is aobut fine where it is in power level, if needing some points increases on a few units.

The person you're thinking of sounds suspiciously similar to Phil Kelley...

1: Orks in 6th edition weren't great, and definitely not on the same level as Tau

2: I never said a model could be MC and GC at the same time, i suggested that the WK become a MC and lose GC, I also still think it is under costed for how much damage it can do and how durable it is.

3: Eldar infantry deserve to be OP compared to other infantry because they aren't as OP awesome as bikes? that is your argument? Also, Initiative is just fething stupid in this game. In the assault phase it actually means agility apparently but it doesn't factor in that way. But when I mention that people state its more about how fast they can think, but if thats the case why should infantry move faster because they can think faster?

4: Just about every Eldar model needs a points increase, Firedragons getting AP0 is just stupid, Spiders getting to JSJ during your opponents shooting phase is even worse. The Anal dwelling Phil Kelly who wrote this codex just didn't like the idea of any of his units being subpar compared to the rest of the game.

You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

No one has said anything to make it balanced lol everyone just wants to either make them crap or ban them all together. In other words everyone just wants to nurff them not balance them.

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

No one has said anything to make it balanced lol everyone just wants to either make them crap or ban them all together. In other words everyone just wants to nurff them not balance them.

Thats your opinion, your opinion has been noted and written off by almost everyone because we all think your being TFG, if you really don't believe that WK and Scat Bikes aren't OP as hell then please explain how they aren't OP in the current game settings.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm okay throwing Saim Hain under the bus at this point. Or make it a WD formation.

The Eldar have so many more past sins than CSM, though.

There's the petulance I'm talking about. How about Saim Hain should be able to field a reasonably effective and fluffy force and GW find a way to make that happen without making it OP. Everyone wins. Saying screw them really isn't a reasonable response. As an aside, I don't think there has been a time until now when Saim Hain has been a significant force in the game. While Eldar in general may have been powerful for a long time, peole who primarily played Saim Hain have long lacked the ability to be a really competitive force.

"Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down."

When I say that, everyone says that would break the game. As the scoop their entire list from WK stomps.

You misunderstand my point. I'm not saying that nerfing Eldar and other 7.5 dexes is a bad idea or shouldn't be done, rather use a scalpel not a splitting maul when doing so. Tone down the OP without making models, units or armies more or less unplayable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

Complaining that Eldar have always been OP and therefore deserve time being bad is petulant and immature. Everyone should be on an equal footing with a codex that has useable units from start to finish. Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down. Sure nerf may be in order from time to time but the goal should be to make something playable, not reduce it to irrelevance as penance for past sins. Can I get an amen from the chaos players? (3.5)

Or how about we nerf the big nasty four codex's rather than just letting power bloat take its toll on the game?

And whilst we are at it just nerf the hell out of Eldar. An edition at bottom place would not hurt them and would be a nice break for the rest of us.

Look more unreasonable, grab the pitchforks, make 'em pay mob mentality. No one deserves editions at the bottom. Everyone should be more or less on equal footing. Calling for an unbalanced game makes no sense. If you are OK with an unbalanced game, and you must be since you are arguing a faction should be underpowered, why are you complaining?

Again nerfs aren't necessarily bad, but the goal should be balance, not rendering models and units useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

No one has said anything to make it balanced lol everyone just wants to either make them crap or ban them all together. In other words everyone just wants to nurff them not balance them.

Disagree with this. Plenty of posters have offered reasonable input on making it more balanced. Nerfs are not the same as making it imbalanced. Nerfs, if done properly, create balance rather than destroying it. Certainly some will only be happy if Eldar are the 40 laughingstock that is easily beat up on by every army, or have particular hatred of one or more units and will only be happy if those units are unplayable, but plenty of others just call for small changes to make the codex and game as a whole more balanced.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

No one has said anything to make it balanced lol everyone just wants to either make them crap or ban them all together. In other words everyone just wants to nurff them not balance them.

Thats your opinion, your opinion has been noted and written off by almost everyone because we all think your being TFG, if you really don't believe that WK and Scat Bikes aren't OP as hell then please explain how they aren't OP in the current game settings.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

So by that logic then IoM and Chaos should all be allies. you know, since blood is thicker then water.

The Eldar are a lot more practical than the leading factions in the IoM.

I do agree, allies of convenience would reflect their mutual distaste for each other. Battle-brother presumes a certain level of trust.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm okay throwing Saim Hain under the bus at this point. Or make it a WD formation.

The Eldar have so many more past sins than CSM, though.

There's the petulance I'm talking about. How about Saim Hain should be able to field a reasonably effective and fluffy force and GW find a way to make that happen without making it OP. Everyone wins. Saying screw them really isn't a reasonable response. As an aside, I don't think there has been a time until now when Saim Hain has been a significant force in the game. While Eldar in general may have been powerful for a long time, peole who primarily played Saim Hain have long lacked the ability to be a really competitive force.

"Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down."

When I say that, everyone says that would break the game. As the scoop their entire list from WK stomps.

You misunderstand my point. I'm not saying that nerfing Eldar and other 7.5 dexes is a bad idea or shouldn't be done, rather use a scalpel not a splitting maul when doing so. Tone down the OP without making models, units or armies more or less unplayable.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

Complaining that Eldar have always been OP and therefore deserve time being bad is petulant and immature. Everyone should be on an equal footing with a codex that has useable units from start to finish. Look to lift everyone up, not just tear others down. Sure nerf may be in order from time to time but the goal should be to make something playable, not reduce it to irrelevance as penance for past sins. Can I get an amen from the chaos players? (3.5)

Or how about we nerf the big nasty four codex's rather than just letting power bloat take its toll on the game?

And whilst we are at it just nerf the hell out of Eldar. An edition at bottom place would not hurt them and would be a nice break for the rest of us.

Look more unreasonable, grab the pitchforks, make 'em pay mob mentality. No one deserves editions at the bottom. Everyone should be more or less on equal footing. Calling for an unbalanced game makes no sense. If you are OK with an unbalanced game, and you must be since you are arguing a faction should be underpowered, why are you complaining?

Again nerfs aren't necessarily bad, but the goal should be balance, not rendering models and units useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

No one has said anything to make it balanced lol everyone just wants to either make them crap or ban them all together. In other words everyone just wants to nurff them not balance them.

Disagree with this. Plenty of posters have offered reasonable input on making it more balanced. Nerfs are not the same as making it imbalanced. Nerfs, if done properly, create balance rather than destroying it. Certainly some will only be happy if Eldar are the 40 laughingstock that is easily beat up on by every army, or have particular hatred of one or more units and will only be happy if those units are unplayable, but plenty of others just call for small changes to make the codex and game as a whole more balanced.

Making bikes FA and not being able to take Hw is pretty much making them suck


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

No one has said anything to make it balanced lol everyone just wants to either make them crap or ban them all together. In other words everyone just wants to nurff them not balance them.

Thats your opinion, your opinion has been noted and written off by almost everyone because we all think your being TFG, if you really don't believe that WK and Scat Bikes aren't OP as hell then please explain how they aren't OP in the current game settings.

WK die to grav in a heart beat, one squad of cents with grav in a drop pod (which everyone takes, if they play marines) and that WK is dead.
As for the bikes you can kill them with just about anything that shoots. Yeah they have 36"-48" range, your telling me that if you have heavy bolters you can't kill them.? You can drop pod against them.? You can outflank against them, there are so many ways to kill them. They need the range and shooting to be affective, what other troop would you take that's any good.? Gaurdians, nope, DA maybe if there in a transport.
If people want to tone down eldar then there's other books that need a tone down as well, SM, necorns, ad-mek, and I'm pretty sure tau will ride the cheese wave as well.

Eldar was way more broken in 4th edition with invisible Falcons and no one complained this much.
Last codex everyone complained that wave serpents were to amazing (they were) and in this codex they got tone down a lot. But like I've already said before the codex should stay as is just like all other codexs that came out and whatever is coming out. You don't want to play against eldar then don't play against eldar it's simple. If you don't want to play against eldar in a tournament then don't go.

So DMan, your entire reasoning behind not nerfing anything in the Eldar Codex is because SM have drop pods and cents. Two units that the entire game feels are a bit broken to begin with?

So because 1 army can take Drop pods then your justified in taking a WK that can kill my 770pt Stompa in 1 shot.

And again, THEY ARE TROOPS they aren't supposed to be amazing at everything. As it stands your stupid Jetbikes are #1 in movement of troops, #1 in Fire for troops and #1 in Power per point for troops. They are the definition of over powered.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So DMan, your entire reasoning behind not nerfing anything in the Eldar Codex is because SM have drop pods and cents. Two units that the entire game feels are a bit broken to begin with?

So because 1 army can take Drop pods then your justified in taking a WK that can kill my 770pt Stompa in 1 shot.

And again, THEY ARE TROOPS they aren't supposed to be amazing at everything. As it stands your stupid Jetbikes are #1 in movement of troops, #1 in Fire for troops and #1 in Power per point for troops. They are the definition of over powered.

To nurff one dex you have to nurff others (by dex I mean certain units)
The WK doesn't need a nurff it just needs to no be in regular 40k, if anything make the wraith lord good and useable.
Do I think that the aspect host needs a change, sure there should be a points increase there but no change to there rules, and I've always said all sargents should have 2 wounds in every codex. And I think bikes if they are allowed to only take cannons they the balance out a bit better. Not complete change them back to what they were before

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So DMan, your entire reasoning behind not nerfing anything in the Eldar Codex is because SM have drop pods and cents. Two units that the entire game feels are a bit broken to begin with?

So because 1 army can take Drop pods then your justified in taking a WK that can kill my 770pt Stompa in 1 shot.

And again, THEY ARE TROOPS they aren't supposed to be amazing at everything. As it stands your stupid Jetbikes are #1 in movement of troops, #1 in Fire for troops and #1 in Power per point for troops. They are the definition of over powered.

Eldar troops that are better than BA troops, BA heavies, BA FA, and BA elites.

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

No one has said anything to make it balanced lol everyone just wants to either make them crap or ban them all together. In other words everyone just wants to nurff them not balance them.

Isn't that the intent of a nerf?

 Vash108 wrote:
I wouldn't mind it so bad but all the D weapons and 2+ re-rollables are silly. Have a friend of mine who built up his Eldar army and refuses to play with it very often because of how OP it seems.

I'm not so enlightened, but when not in an event, I tend to play highlander lists and alot of units that noone else would ever play: 20 Guardians on foot, Rangers, Shining Spears, Banshees, Vipers (when not obligated to do so), etc. You get the idea.

Last edition/codex Eldar players took Bike troops all the time. THey just couldn't kill everything in the game that didn't have AV of 13 or better. This edition they are literally the best unit in the game, they need a nerf.

Remove points from the game.

Fixed!

Martel732 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So DMan, your entire reasoning behind not nerfing anything in the Eldar Codex is because SM have drop pods and cents. Two units that the entire game feels are a bit broken to begin with?

So because 1 army can take Drop pods then your justified in taking a WK that can kill my 770pt Stompa in 1 shot.

And again, THEY ARE TROOPS they aren't supposed to be amazing at everything. As it stands your stupid Jetbikes are #1 in movement of troops, #1 in Fire for troops and #1 in Power per point for troops. They are the definition of over powered.

Eldar troops that are better than BA troops, BA heavies, BA FA, and BA elites.

I'm sure BA or some SM army will get a boost come Christmas, GW pretty much always comes out with some sort of imperial thing just before Christmas. What I'm trying to say is wait it out until more 40k stuff starts coming out again (late September) and then we can all see where the balance needs to take place and what needs to be balanced, who knows SM could get a super heavy with range D. I wouldn't put it past GW

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

No one has said anything to make it balanced lol everyone just wants to either make them crap or ban them all together. In other words everyone just wants to nurff them not balance them.

You haven't read every entry then, as a Eldar player who agrees with most (not all) of the comments in this thread...I'd never seek to fully Ban or make them useless to play.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Remove points from the game.

Fixed!

In the BRB it says you can play without points.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Remove points from the game.

Fixed!

Welcome to Age of The Emperor

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So because 1 army can take Drop pods then your justified in taking a WK that can kill my 770pt Stompa in 1 shot.

Isn't this a problem with ranged D weapons then, and not the WK itself?

Not trying to provoke an issue here, but it is important that we are really looking at the right thing.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So because 1 army can take Drop pods then your justified in taking a WK that can kill my 770pt Stompa in 1 shot.

Isn't this a problem with ranged D weapons then, and not the WK itself?

Not trying to provoke an issue here, but it is important that we are really looking at the right thing.

no, because even when the WK doesn't take the D weapons he is still OP compared to price.

The D weapons are actually one of the least offensive things about the WK.

Dman137 wrote:


Yep, people rather complain then just adapt and try new strategys, space marines have all the told to deal with eldar bikes and then some, the also have a formation for free transports (yes you have to take certain things to unlock that but still) is it fair that my 1850 army needs to face a 2300pt list.?

The fact that you can compete at 1850 (and win) with 2300pts of space marines doesn't say that you're codex is too efficient compared to others?

That bad thing is...now that Pandora's box has been opened and free models have become a thing, there really isn't any going back. Eldar are strong because they need to be to compete with Necrons and the new Space Marines...they just have the ranged D and super efficient speedy units so they get to hear the brunt of the complaints. The rest of the pre-Decurion codecies have to just suck it up for a bit while we wait for our sparkling new detachments and formations filled with free upgrades / models.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So because 1 army can take Drop pods then your justified in taking a WK that can kill my 770pt Stompa in 1 shot.

Isn't this a problem with ranged D weapons then, and not the WK itself?

Not trying to provoke an issue here, but it is important that we are really looking at the right thing.

no, because even when the WK doesn't take the D weapons he is still OP compared to price.

Fair enough. I have only used mine 3 times since the new codex. Twice stock, and once sword and board. Stock - I didn't enjoy using it, because I roll a lot of 6's. Sword and Board was more fun, but still not tons of fun. In all three of those game, my buddy used his Barbed Heriodule, so at least we both had GMC.

I'm thinking a ranged D Nerf, and maybe a 50 point bump. I'm going to play that out a few times.

Dman137 wrote:


Making bikes FA and not being able to take Hw is pretty much making them suck.

I more or less agree with this, but people have made other proposals than just that, and many of them make sense. Don't just focus on the bad ones.

Eldar was way more broken in 4th edition with invisible Falcons and no one complained this much.
Last codex everyone complained that wave serpents were to amazing (they were) and in this codex they got tone down a lot. But like I've already said before the codex should stay as is just like all other codexs that came out and whatever is coming out. You don't want to play against eldar then don't play against eldar it's simple. If you don't want to play against eldar in a tournament then don't go.

I think you mean invincible not invisible. With those Falcons it was realatively easy to prevent them from shooting and then you had an expensive transport that couldn't transport much and really couldn't do much. You paid a lot of points to stay alive and not damage anything. That wasn't really terribly broken. Not saying it shouldn't have been easier to actually kill them, but their damage output was not too impressive.

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
You can complain all you want, but it won't change and no one will ban eldar (speaking of tourneys) in local stores or in your gaming group anything can happen

So in a thread entitled "What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced" your input is "Stop complaining, and L2P" Got it. please go defend your broken codex in another thread. here it isn't relevant.

No one has said anything to make it balanced lol everyone just wants to either make them crap or ban them all together. In other words everyone just wants to nurff them not balance them.

So...out of this entire thread, every single post has simply been to "make them crap" or "ban them".

Methinks you're either willfully ignoring what people are posting, or are are simply trolling. The vast majority of these suggestions would simply take the Eldar codex *mostly* back to it's 6E incarnation, which was still at damn near the top of the power pyramid.

There's a huge number of highly unnecessary buffs, and many made for completely non-gameplay related reasons, as explained earlier regarding jetbikes.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So...out of this entire thread, every single post has simply been to "make them crap" or "ban them".

Methinks you're either willfully ignoring what people are posting, or are are simply trolling. The vast majority of these suggestions would simply take the Eldar codex *mostly* back to it's 6E incarnation, which was still at damn near the top of the power pyramid.

There's a huge number of highly unnecessary buffs, and many made for completely non-gameplay related reasons, as explained earlier regarding jetbikes.

No, I'm the one who'e trolling this thread. Dman137 is just providing his insightful and constructive input into the balance problems in the Eldar codex.

Do you know why people spammed Wave Serpents in the last codex, aside form the Serpent Shield being OP? It's because many of the other units were simply sub-optimal and didn't measure up. Why take the Avatar of Khaine or a Phoenix Lord when you could just take a cheap Autarch to spam more Wave Serpents? Why take Aspect Warriors when Wraithguard with D-Scythes were so much better? Why take special characters when you could just spam a Seer Council?

With the buffs to Aspect Warriors and the associated formations, people now have a reason to take Aspect Warriors and alternate HQ units (inb4 Ghazkuul complains about Jain Zar again). Unfortunately, all or this is overshadowed by Wraithknights, D-Weapons, and Scatbikers. Tone down and eliminate those, and the Eldar codex stars to appear balanced, at least by post-Necron standards.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So...out of this entire thread, every single post has simply been to "make them crap" or "ban them".

Methinks you're either willfully ignoring what people are posting, or are are simply trolling. The vast majority of these suggestions would simply take the Eldar codex *mostly* back to it's 6E incarnation, which was still at damn near the top of the power pyramid.

There's a huge number of highly unnecessary buffs, and many made for completely non-gameplay related reasons, as explained earlier regarding jetbikes.

No, I'm the one who'e trolling this thread. Dman137 is just providing his insightful and constructive input into the balance problems in the Eldar codex.

Do you know why people spammed Wave Serpents in the last codex, aside form the Serpent Shield being OP? It's because many of the other units were simply sub-optimal and didn't measure up. Why take the Avatar of Khaine or a Phoenix Lord when you could just take a cheap Autarch to spam more Wave Serpents? Why take Aspect Warriors when Wraithguard with D-Scythes were so much better? Why take special characters when you could just spam a Seer Council?

A lot of these weren't necessarily problems with things like Aspect Warriors being bad (though a few were, and the worst off ones still largely are, and are so because of larger reasons largely related to the core rules), as with other units simply being over the top good.

As is, they just made things like Wraithguard even better on top of it.

I don't see any (major) impetus to nerf things like the Avatar or Phoenix Lords.

With the buffs to Aspect Warriors and the associated formations, people now have a reason to take Aspect Warriors and alternate HQ units (inb4 Ghazkuul complains about Jain Zar again). Unfortunately, all or this is overshadowed by Wraithknights, D-Weapons, and Scatbikers. Tone down and eliminate those, and the Eldar codex stars to appear balanced, at least by post-Necron standards.

Well, that's a nebulous area. I don't think any of the 2015 books are particularly well balanced. To be perfectly frank, there's no way I'm ever going to be convinced that BS5 "AP0" Fire Dragons for 22pts a piece are "balanced" when they're one-shotting tanks at the same rate D-Weapons do, and at double the rate of something like an IG melta-vet or combi-melta Sternguard.

DMan137, just justify this for me please:

As a core troops choice you can take a unit of up to 10 models which can move 12", skip over terrain, is relentless, can all mount some of the best Heavy Weapons in the game and can move in the Assault phase too. And you think this is balanced reasonable and fair?

 master of ordinance wrote:
DMan137, just justify this for me please:

As a core troops choice you can take a unit of up to 10 models which can move 12", skip over terrain, is relentless, can all mount some of the best Heavy Weapons in the game and can move in the Assault phase too. And you think this is balanced reasonable and fair?

In the current meta yes, with SM getting so many tanks and necrons being next to impossible to kill, you need all the fire power you can get.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Jetbikes, Move them to FA, 1 in 3 Heavy weapons, reduce Armor save to 4+.

WK: Remove Strength D weapons, they have no place in 40k. 100pt increase MINIMUM. MC not Gargantuan.

Firedragons or whatever the feth they are called: They are melta not super fething melta, AP1 not AP0.

Not allowed to ally with DE because it doesnt make any fething sense.

All Eldar Units have a 5-10% increase in cost.

Exarchs 1 W, not 2.

Wraith: no D scythes here either, no place in 40k.

Phoenix Lords: Fine, they can be this completely OP im ok with that, but they cost an extra 30-50pts each.

Jetbikes: I'm actually against you on that one, it's like the dark Angels loss of ability to do their theme, or the White scars to do theirs. Plus that people take it from the formation anyway, I suggest making it 1 for every 3 and gaining a special rule where they can't take a compulsory troop choice as a unit of 3. The armour save though is warranted, their not space marines, they're eldar, also WS,BS 3.

WK: quite frankly i disagree, it's either rid of the gargantuan and reinstate distort for wraith-cannon and sword (but stay at 300) or up the points by 80 (not 100 since the loss of the distort) but make the default the sword + shield and the main cannon for a additional 10.

Aspect & exarcs: FD's lose ap0 gain tank hunter and immunity to splosions, exarch gains ap0 but costs 20
WS's flickerjump only used 1once during the enemies shooting phase, exarch is 20
SS's gain rending on lances, lose underslung gun but retain 3+ save, exarch is 20
HB's mirrorswords on exarch gain ap2, acrobatic gives ability to assault from transports (moving restrictions) exarch is 20
DR's exarch becomes 20 points
SS's exarch is 20 points if it's not already the claw becoms specialist
SH's exarch is 20 points, jink allowed against attack on flyer,
Spectres need serious fix, I've already sent FW an email and elicited the "homebrew" it response
DE no longer battle brothers

D-scythes change to 1-5 like a flamer in a squad, both cannon and flamer change to back to distort.
Phoenix lords: Woah, Woah, Woah quite frankly I want to tell you to off, but I'm more civilised. They should all gain the special rule : 1 Cad. all gain an invulnerable save, (Asurman changes to 3++ and re-roll saves of 1 warlord trait), Jain zar retains the ability to disarm but only in the first turn and the Int and WS penalty is decreased to -3. Karandras gains the bonus attacks rule, Fuegan gains tank hunter and an extra shot, baharroth sword changes to ap2 with +1 str. All lords allow aspect troops and fearless on that troop plus a 20-30 point increase along with stat increases, why they aren't on par with a generic DE succubus confuses me.

Blade storm changes to +1 shots if battle focus running isn't used, and the ability to rend on ap3 (DA keep their ap2)
Guardians + warwalkers: change back to WS,BS 3 these guys are militia and their stats should reflect it more
Farseers: go back to having to pay for runes, also fix the defensive runes(I.e old useful form but within a short radius)
Autarchs: the proclaimed master of strategy have little to prove it, impose a point increase and better their strategical abilities.
Yriel: this guys should be badass, give him the improved strat rules reflect his spear better than the weak thing it is and give the ability for a bike.
Eldrad: this guy is a psychic master, give him the improved runes and his redeploy rules and put him back up to the 220/230.
Illic: his sniper now wounds on a 3+ a generic vindicare shouldn't be better.
Rangers & pathfinders: long rifles rend on 5+ and wound on 3+ double points to be a pathfinder with shrouded and precision rules, Rangers to 13-16 points each.

As you guys can tell, I love my Phoenix lords and they DONT need any more time on the useless part of the codex section.
And all you guys saying to scrap the eldar book, quite frankly it's unfair, I love my aspect and Exodite force to bits and my PL's and avatar are some of my best models.

I want to point out again that of all the top-table builds at tournaments currently, Eldar are the only ones that can just take a CAD and roll with it and expect to do well.

Everyone else needs multiple detachments to abuse ally interactions or spam a non-troop, free point summons, all aerial lists to invalidate 90% of enemy shooting, rerollable 2++, invisibility, or formations with other silly bonuses in line with the rest of this junk.

Literally no other army can walk into a big event and say "oh I just brought a single CAD" and expect to do as well as they do.

If it wasn't for how ridiculously good eldar unit quality is, we could just nix all formations and the other silly stuff from paragraph 2 above and be back to a somewhat balanced game. As is though, if we just got rid of all that without doing anything about eldar, they would go unopposed atop their throne of power.

Also after thinking a bit, I think starting with:
Bikes: +5 points
Scatter lasers: +5 points
Wraithknight: +100 points, must be 25% covered for cover save a la vehicle rules.
Fire dragons: lose +1 vehicle damage chart
Warp spiders: -1 str on shots, 1 warp jump per game turn TOTAL. IE no reactive jumps if you jumped on your turn.
Powers: limit fortune to 5 rerolls/turn, and only targets psyker and his unit, remove apoc size blast option from the blast power.

I bet with those in place, eldar wouldn't be nearly as hated, and armies could put up a much better fight with just unit quality and not relying on broken force multipliers like some of the ridic formations.

Dman137 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
DMan137, just justify this for me please:

As a core troops choice you can take a unit of up to 10 models which can move 12", skip over terrain, is relentless, can all mount some of the best Heavy Weapons in the game and can move in the Assault phase too. And you think this is balanced reasonable and fair?

In the current meta yes, with SM getting so many tanks and necrons being next to impossible to kill, you need all the fire power you can get.

So you actually think that 10 12" plus assault move relentless heavy weapons are fair?

Welcome to eldar players. And you thought sm were bad.

Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

I play chaos

 Konrax wrote:
I play chaos

*sniff* *sniff*
Smells like Heresy

point re-balancing on the hugely under costed models. A reworking of scatter bike spam, maybe 1 in 3?

maybe one day they will change it back to 1-3 heavy weapons but until then I'm going to enjoy my 30+ scattbikes, picked up a few more the other day.

 Brennonjw wrote:
point re-balancing on the hugely under costed models. A reworking of scatter bike spam, maybe 1 in 3?

For a troops choice 1 in 5 is more than enough.

Removal or severe pints increase of the Wraith Brigade and its corresponding D spam.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Konrax wrote:
I play chaos

*sniff* *sniff*
Smells like Heresy

Don't worry it's Alpha Legion and tzeentch, were the good bad good bad bad guys

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
point re-balancing on the hugely under costed models. A reworking of scatter bike spam, maybe 1 in 3?

For a troops choice 1 in 5 is more than enough.

Removal or severe pints increase of the Wraith Brigade and its corresponding D spam.

Make bikes worse then they were before this codex lol

 hiveof_chimera wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Jetbikes, Move them to FA, 1 in 3 Heavy weapons, reduce Armor save to 4+.

WK: Remove Strength D weapons, they have no place in 40k. 100pt increase MINIMUM. MC not Gargantuan.

Firedragons or whatever the feth they are called: They are melta not super fething melta, AP1 not AP0.

Not allowed to ally with DE because it doesnt make any fething sense.

All Eldar Units have a 5-10% increase in cost.

Exarchs 1 W, not 2.

Wraith: no D scythes here either, no place in 40k.

Phoenix Lords: Fine, they can be this completely OP im ok with that, but they cost an extra 30-50pts each.

Jetbikes: I'm actually against you on that one, it's like the dark Angels loss of ability to do their theme, or the White scars to do theirs. Plus that people take it from the formation anyway, I suggest making it 1 for every 3 and gaining a special rule where they can't take a compulsory troop choice as a unit of 3. The armour save though is warranted, their not space marines, they're eldar, also WS,BS 3.

WK: quite frankly i disagree, it's either rid of the gargantuan and reinstate distort for wraith-cannon and sword (but stay at 300) or up the points by 80 (not 100 since the loss of the distort) but make the default the sword + shield and the main cannon for a additional 10.

Aspect & exarcs: FD's lose ap0 gain tank hunter and immunity to splosions, exarch gains ap0 but costs 20
WS's flickerjump only used 1once during the enemies shooting phase, exarch is 20
SS's gain rending on lances, lose underslung gun but retain 3+ save, exarch is 20
HB's mirrorswords on exarch gain ap2, acrobatic gives ability to assault from transports (moving restrictions) exarch is 20
DR's exarch becomes 20 points
SS's exarch is 20 points if it's not already the claw becoms specialist
SH's exarch is 20 points, jink allowed against attack on flyer,
Spectres need serious fix, I've already sent FW an email and elicited the "homebrew" it response
DE no longer battle brothers

D-scythes change to 1-5 like a flamer in a squad, both cannon and flamer change to back to distort.
Phoenix lords: Woah, Woah, Woah quite frankly I want to tell you to off, but I'm more civilised. They should all gain the special rule : 1 Cad. all gain an invulnerable save, (Asurman changes to 3++ and re-roll saves of 1 warlord trait), Jain zar retains the ability to disarm but only in the first turn and the Int and WS penalty is decreased to -3. Karandras gains the bonus attacks rule, Fuegan gains tank hunter and an extra shot, baharroth sword changes to ap2 with +1 str. All lords allow aspect troops and fearless on that troop plus a 20-30 point increase along with stat increases, why they aren't on par with a generic DE succubus confuses me.

Blade storm changes to +1 shots if battle focus running isn't used, and the ability to rend on ap3 (DA keep their ap2)
Guardians + warwalkers: change back to WS,BS 3 these guys are militia and their stats should reflect it more
Farseers: go back to having to pay for runes, also fix the defensive runes(I.e old useful form but within a short radius)
Autarchs: the proclaimed master of strategy have little to prove it, impose a point increase and better their strategical abilities.
Yriel: this guys should be badass, give him the improved strat rules reflect his spear better than the weak thing it is and give the ability for a bike.
Eldrad: this guy is a psychic master, give him the improved runes and his redeploy rules and put him back up to the 220/230.
Illic: his sniper now wounds on a 3+ a generic vindicare shouldn't be better.
Rangers & pathfinders: long rifles rend on 5+ and wound on 3+ double points to be a pathfinder with shrouded and precision rules, Rangers to 13-16 points each.

As you guys can tell, I love my Phoenix lords and they DONT need any more time on the useless part of the codex section.
And all you guys saying to scrap the eldar book, quite frankly it's unfair, I love my aspect and Exodite force to bits and my PL's and avatar are some of my best models.

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying.

WK should be Gargantuan. The model is HUGE. It just needs to be priced accordingly.
With the Exarchs, I think 15 points is enough. They're not good enough to be priced 20 points, the only time people would take them is for the Aspect Host. I see no reason a Scorpion's Claw should be nerfed, the thing is 30 points and assault is weak enough as it is. The only real assault units worth a damn right now are coming off assault transports, or are fast (Thunderwolves, beasts, etc.). Scorpions are neither.

I think the game wants to move away from assaulting from transports and I think that's okay, but Banshees seriously need some oomph. They need to be at least as fast as beasts to be worth a damn especially since they don't hit particularly hard anyway. I think they need to be able to strike first like they used to be able to, maybe via a -2 to initiative, and be able to run and charge. Acrobatic still let's them add +3 to run distance but not to charge. Swooping Hawks don't really need a change, their attack is actually pretty hard to land and they're pretty squishy.

Shining Spears is an interesting unit. I think the only niche left to be filled is a CC AP2. No one uses them right now because they're pretty bad compared to shooting. Give them just a flat AP2 and Hit and Run and I think they'll be decent.

Formation wise, give Guardians back their +1 to BS and WS if in a Guardian Host, to represent Ulthwe Black Hosts. If Jetbikes are BS3, I think they can stay at 17 points, just make scatter lasers +15 points instead, and let them get BS4 with a new Windrider formation (with additional tax units, e.g. more Vypers, mandatory Shining Spears, etc.). 32 point BS3 Scatter Lasers on Jetbikes isn't very scary.

I think people knee jerk a lot on Eldar. Barebones, there's only a few problem units. Scatterbikes, Wraithknight, PERHAPS Wraithguard. Those are the big things. If the WK was 400 points and Scatter bikes were nerfed (e.g. back to 1 in 3, with scatter lasers costing +15 points), WG were say 50 points base, with 60 for D-scythes, you'd instantly balance Eldar, regardless of the big scary D. Seriously, whoever thinks battle focus is a problem needs to re-evaluate...everything. If there was a massive rebalance for ALL the high powered codexes, such as Space Marines and Necrons, then yes maybe a few other things need tweaking, but nothing else in the eldar codex is overpowered. People here call for nerfs on things like Striking Scorpions and I'm like, really? Who thinks Scorpions are OP?

Tau are coming in a few months now. With codex creep all codices will improve, maybe not to Eldar levels but to better contest each other. Like I said, there's only really 2 major things in the Eldar codex that need fixing.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

Why are you effectively labeling all marine players as whiny bitches?

And then effectively calling all eldar players power gamers?

Sounds to me like YOU have a chip on your shoulder. Wanna hug it out bud?

 Formosa wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

Why are you effectively labeling all marine players as whiny bitches?

And then effectively calling all eldar players power gamers?

Sounds to me like YOU have a chip on your shoulder. Wanna hug it out bud?

I mean, most SM players I've known complain about their book...a lot.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I want to point out again that of all the top-table builds at tournaments currently, Eldar are the only ones that can just take a CAD and roll with it and expect to do well.

Everyone else needs multiple detachments to abuse ally interactions or spam a non-troop, free point summons, all aerial lists to invalidate 90% of enemy shooting, rerollable 2++, invisibility, or formations with other silly bonuses in line with the rest of this junk.

Literally no other army can walk into a big event and say "oh I just brought a single CAD" and expect to do as well as they do.

If it wasn't for how ridiculously good eldar unit quality is, we could just nix all formations and the other silly stuff from paragraph 2 above and be back to a somewhat balanced game. As is though, if we just got rid of all that without doing anything about eldar, they would go unopposed atop their throne of power.

Also after thinking a bit, I think starting with:
Bikes: +5 points
Scatter lasers: +5 points
Wraithknight: +100 points, must be 25% covered for cover save a la vehicle rules.
Fire dragons: lose +1 vehicle damage chart
Warp spiders: -1 str on shots, 1 warp jump per game turn TOTAL. IE no reactive jumps if you jumped on your turn.
Powers: limit fortune to 5 rerolls/turn, and only targets psyker and his unit, remove apoc size blast option from the blast power.

I bet with those in place, eldar wouldn't be nearly as hated, and armies could put up a much better fight with just unit quality and not relying on broken force multipliers like some of the ridic formations.

The reason people take a CAD with eldar is to spam Scatbikers as much as possible. Throw in a Seer Council on Jetbikes and a Wraithknight and you're golden. I can guarantee you that if you take away the Eldar's power to abuse the CAD, all you'll see is a lot more Aspect Hosts, especially now that ITC allows a single duplicate formation.

The problem with Scatbikers isn't just their cost, it's the sheer number of shots they put out. Make them 27 points base, increase the Scatter Laser by 5 points, and limit heavy weapons to 1 in 3 and they suddenly start to look more balanced.

I agree that superheavies need to follow the rules for cover like vehicles, not MCs. Letting a Wraithknight or an Imperial Knight "toe in" to cover is just dumb.

Fire Dragons and Warp Spiders are where I disagree. Fire Dragons have the extra +1 on damage tables because its all they can do. Sternguard have specialist ammo, Command Squads can mix-and-match ans take power weapons. Fire Dragons have a meltagun, melta bombs, and nothing else on a T3 body. Let's also not forget that back in 6th edition any meltagun had a 50/50 chance of instakilling a vehicle. Warp Spiders are slightly undercosted, and should probably be 22 points a model. S6 is necessary to let them be a threat to vehicle side armour. I can agree on not letting them Flickerjump if they used their warp jump generators in the movement phase.

Here's an easier fix for Fortune: only let it target a unit other than the one that is attempting to manifest the power. Now you need two really expensive deathstars to get the most out of Fortune. I also agree about getting rid of the Apoc blast on Eldrich Storm, as the power is good enough already.

Dman137 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Brennonjw wrote:
point re-balancing on the hugely under costed models. A reworking of scatter bike spam, maybe 1 in 3?

For a troops choice 1 in 5 is more than enough.

Removal or severe pints increase of the Wraith Brigade and its corresponding D spam.

Make bikes worse then they were before this codex lol

Im sorry, having stupid amounts of manoeuvrability and more firepower than any other troops choice in the game is not enough for you? Too bad because I am tired of seeing Eldar players with scatbike spam and the like rip other armies apart like they are nothing. 10 Bikers with insane manoeuvrability and more firepower than many Super Heavy vehicles whilst costing less than said SH's is stupid in itself but being able to take them as troops - now thats a whole new level of fethed up.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

This is where I finally have a sense of relief for spending an hour a night working on 1800 pts of fluffy and obscure IF successors in a CAD...

So, no thoughts on what I put in the first page? I've seen a lot of people here repeating parts of what I already do in my houserules...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
So, no thoughts on what I put in the first page? I've seen a lot of people here repeating parts of what I already do in my houserules...

Maybe put them in the Proposed Rules section?

jwr wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

This is where I finally have a sense of relief for spending an hour a night working on 1800 pts of fluffy and obscure IF successors in a CAD...

There was a hint of sarcasm in my post, and if you read above, you'll know that it mainly stems from all of the (vanilla) Space Marine players that I've seen.

What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced.?

Pretty much everything imo.

Newer codices utilizing their special formations might be able to compete with the eldar (and usually only these formation which is a problem in itself), but compared to any 6th edition codex the codex creep seen in the new eldar book is on a whole new level.

The whole game needs bringing down a level, but eldar are in need of it the most.

Sub 300 point T8 6W 3+ save GMC with D weaponry......lol.

Make the WK like 600 pts

Get rid of blade storm

Get rid of holo fields or make them one use only

Make that reroll in the psychic phase have some kind of drawback to it.

feth that book

Big Blind Bill wrote:

What would you change in the eldar codex to make it balanced.?

Pretty much everything imo.

Newer codices utilizing their special formations might be able to compete with the eldar (and usually only these formation which is a problem in itself), but compared to any 6th edition codex the codex creep seen in the new eldar book is on a whole new level.

The whole game needs bringing down a level, but eldar are in need of it the most.

Sub 300 point T8 6W 3+ save GMC with D weaponry......lol.

The biggest problems with Eldar are Scatbikers, D-Weapons, and the Wraithknight. Those are the things most in need of change. Fix those, and the book suddenly becomes much more balanced.

Las wrote:Make the WK like 600 pts

Get rid of blade storm

Get rid of holo fields or make them one use only

Make that reroll in the psychic phase have some kind of drawback to it.

feth that book

Considering that Imperial Knights are only around 350-450 points, 600 is a bit much.

Bladestorm can go away when grav and undercosted MCs go away.

Are you thinking of the Serpent Shield? They already made that one use only. And I don't think a 5++ save on a vehicle is that overpowered...

I suggested that Fortune cannot target the unit that attempted to manifest it. With that, Fortune bacomes powerful, but more situational.

Eldar have broken units, not a broken codex as a whole.

The only change I feel needs for the elder cidex is wraithknights are undercosted by 100points. That's all

I would like GW to clarify the warp spiders rules seems unintended for them to jump around a dozen times a turn but that's not a change.

I would like a global change to str d. A roll of 2-5 still d3 no pen table, roll of 6 is 3 hull and pen table no invul save. 6plus d6 and pen table is just broken when you put a 500+ model on table and it's gone in a single hit. It's also better for future str d weapons such as when forgeworld updates all thier distortion wpns to str d.

While eldar codex has a ton of strong units the only unit that is shown to be disgustingly broken in competetive play is wraith knight spam.

I'd bypass the Eldar and go straight to changing the base game itself.

gungo wrote:
The only change I feel needs for the elder cidex is wraithknights are undercosted by 100points. That's all

I would like GW to clarify the warp spiders rules seems unintended for them to jump around a dozen times a turn but that's not a change.

I would like a global change to str d. A roll of 2-5 still d3 no pen table, roll of 6 is 3 hull and pen table no invul save. 6plus d6 and pen table is just broken when you put a 500+ model on table and it's gone in a single hit. It's also better for future str d weapons such as when forgeworld updates all thier distortion wpns to str d.

While eldar codex has a ton of strong units the only unit that is shown to be disgustingly broken in competetive play is wraith knight spam.

This. Change to the d table is all that is really needed. Once the rest of the codex get their updates people will stop complaining that Eldar are op... (who am I kidding, eldar are and will always be the punching bags for SOME reason!)

 krodarklorr wrote:

jwr wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

This is where I finally have a sense of relief for spending an hour a night working on 1800 pts of fluffy and obscure IF successors in a CAD...

There was a hint of sarcasm in my post, and if you read above, you'll know that it mainly stems from all of the (vanilla) Space Marine players that I've seen.

Oh, I noticed. I also had to figure out what to do once I painted a Captain. Then he needed a command squad. They need to be in charge of something....a tac squad. Then a landspeeder. Then an ironclad dread. Then another squad. All the while, thinking, I want to make something original, that doesn't have a single painted model in the 3 dexes I have, but that actually has a little fluff in the BL. I suppose I'm going to have to actually play a game against some Eldar and find out what all the fuss is about.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Indeed. I am beginning to think SM players may not be the worst...

Well Space Marine players are certainly bad. We just have to accept that they're the lesser of two evils.

Why are you effectively labeling all marine players as whiny bitches?

And then effectively calling all eldar players power gamers?

Sounds to me like YOU have a chip on your shoulder. Wanna hug it out bud?

I mean, most SM players I've known complain about their book...a lot.

Well there's still core issues that aren't resolved. Specifically with all Terminator variants, Tactical Marines, Rhinos, and Land Raiders. These are core to the aesthetic of a Space Marine army, and my Tacticals always end up representing Sternguard (because Scouts and Bikers are just that much better) and I have no real use for anything else that was listed.
Everything else is pretty solid, but those things have missed the mark for a VERY long time.

I bought the new BA tactical boxes just to call them Sternguard.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

gungo wrote:
The only change I feel needs for the elder cidex is wraithknights are undercosted by 100points. That's all

I would like GW to clarify the warp spiders rules seems unintended for them to jump around a dozen times a turn but that's not a change.

I would like a global change to str d. A roll of 2-5 still d3 no pen table, roll of 6 is 3 hull and pen table no invul save. 6plus d6 and pen table is just broken when you put a 500+ model on table and it's gone in a single hit. It's also better for future str d weapons such as when forgeworld updates all thier distortion wpns to str d.

While eldar codex has a ton of strong units the only unit that is shown to be disgustingly broken in competetive play is wraith knight spam.

This. Change to the d table is all that is really needed. Once the rest of the codex get their updates people will stop complaining that Eldar are op... (who am I kidding, eldar are and will always be the punching bags for SOME reason!)

Sarcasm? I really hope so.

Eldar have been a punching bag over the years for legitimate reasons.

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar have been a punching bag over the years for legitimate reasons.

If what people have told me is true, Blood Angels were once upon a time just as hated...

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Eldar have been a punching bag over the years for legitimate reasons.

If what people have told me is true, Blood Angels were once upon a time just as hated...

BA peaks have been much more infrequent and much less high than Eldar.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

gungo wrote:
The only change I feel needs for the elder cidex is wraithknights are undercosted by 100points. That's all

I would like GW to clarify the warp spiders rules seems unintended for them to jump around a dozen times a turn but that's not a change.

I would like a global change to str d. A roll of 2-5 still d3 no pen table, roll of 6 is 3 hull and pen table no invul save. 6plus d6 and pen table is just broken when you put a 500+ model on table and it's gone in a single hit. It's also better for future str d weapons such as when forgeworld updates all thier distortion wpns to str d.

While eldar codex has a ton of strong units the only unit that is shown to be disgustingly broken in competetive play is wraith knight spam.

This. Change to the d table is all that is really needed. Once the rest of the codex get their updates people will stop complaining that Eldar are op... (who am I kidding, eldar are and will always be the punching bags for SOME reason!)

Sarcasm? I really hope so.

I have 0 issues with winning vs eldar in close, fun games other than if they bring D-weapons. Anything ignore cover wrecks their bikes and the rest of them are really squishy and have set roles. assault the shooty, shoot the stabby.

Anything that ignores cover usually gets shot from 36" away by said bikes.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

gungo wrote:
The only change I feel needs for the elder cidex is wraithknights are undercosted by 100points. That's all

I would like GW to clarify the warp spiders rules seems unintended for them to jump around a dozen times a turn but that's not a change.

I would like a global change to str d. A roll of 2-5 still d3 no pen table, roll of 6 is 3 hull and pen table no invul save. 6plus d6 and pen table is just broken when you put a 500+ model on table and it's gone in a single hit. It's also better for future str d weapons such as when forgeworld updates all thier distortion wpns to str d.

While eldar codex has a ton of strong units the only unit that is shown to be disgustingly broken in competetive play is wraith knight spam.

This. Change to the d table is all that is really needed. Once the rest of the codex get their updates people will stop complaining that Eldar are op... (who am I kidding, eldar are and will always be the punching bags for SOME reason!)

Sarcasm? I really hope so.

I have 0 issues with winning vs eldar in close, fun games other than if they bring D-weapons. Anything ignore cover wrecks their bikes and the rest of them are really squishy and have set roles. assault the shooty, shoot the stabby.

You mean anything that ignores cover and is AP3. Tons of weapons in my arsenal like that.....ohh wait I dont have any. And assault the shooty? that really doesnt work when their shooty can put out anywhere between 12-40 S6 shots that are usually TL because of psychic shenanigans. Ohh look here goes my boyz to the assault...ohh look 1 turn of shooting reduced the 30 Boy mob to 10 models. I failed my morale check (Go figure) and lost another D6 models. Ohh here we go Im finally in range CHARGE! and then overwatch an im dead.

 Ghazkuul wrote:


You mean anything that ignores cover and is AP3. Tons of weapons in my arsenal like that.....ohh wait I dont have any. And assault the shooty? that really doesnt work when their shooty can put out anywhere between 12-40 S6 shots that are usually TL because of psychic shenanigans. Ohh look here goes my boyz to the assault...ohh look 1 turn of shooting reduced the 30 Boy mob to 10 models. I failed my morale check (Go figure) and lost another D6 models. Ohh here we go Im finally in range CHARGE! and then overwatch an im dead.

That sounds painful. The inevitability i mean.

If i was an ork player having to deal with eldar on a regular basis i would be tempted to ally in some necrons for s***s and giggles. "come the apocalypse? - It's apocalypse every game in 7th ed, mate."

 SirDonlad wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:


You mean anything that ignores cover and is AP3. Tons of weapons in my arsenal like that.....ohh wait I dont have any. And assault the shooty? that really doesnt work when their shooty can put out anywhere between 12-40 S6 shots that are usually TL because of psychic shenanigans. Ohh look here goes my boyz to the assault...ohh look 1 turn of shooting reduced the 30 Boy mob to 10 models. I failed my morale check (Go figure) and lost another D6 models. Ohh here we go Im finally in range CHARGE! and then overwatch an im dead.

That sounds painful. The inevitability i mean.

If i was an ork player having to deal with eldar on a regular basis i would be tempted to ally in some necrons for s***s and giggles. "come the apocalypse? - It's apocalypse every game in 7th ed, mate."

Of course this is situation within a vacuum where this unlikely situation also includes no cover being factored in, no likely Painboy FNP (the bigger the mob the more likely you've invested a Painboy to keep em alive) and worst case scenario even if all of this DOES happen, you have more than one mob of boyz and your more deadly units (bikers, mek guns) aren't being focused down and can either get close or keep doing their job). There's a reason why Ork armies are redundant in terms of taking units.

So far in my games I've never had the need for allies, even when facing against Necrons. Getting through their RP is annoying as gak, but if you lock them down with threats even with gauss most Necron lists can't blow through mass battlewagons or green tide fast enough for them to stop you from hitting home completely. Take advantage of the Finkin' Cap to try and increase the chances of getting infiltrate them to get those crucial extra 6-8" of movement.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

gungo wrote:
The only change I feel needs for the elder cidex is wraithknights are undercosted by 100points. That's all

I would like GW to clarify the warp spiders rules seems unintended for them to jump around a dozen times a turn but that's not a change.

I would like a global change to str d. A roll of 2-5 still d3 no pen table, roll of 6 is 3 hull and pen table no invul save. 6plus d6 and pen table is just broken when you put a 500+ model on table and it's gone in a single hit. It's also better for future str d weapons such as when forgeworld updates all thier distortion wpns to str d.

While eldar codex has a ton of strong units the only unit that is shown to be disgustingly broken in competetive play is wraith knight spam.

This. Change to the d table is all that is really needed. Once the rest of the codex get their updates people will stop complaining that Eldar are op... (who am I kidding, eldar are and will always be the punching bags for SOME reason!)

Sarcasm? I really hope so.

I have 0 issues with winning vs eldar in close, fun games other than if they bring D-weapons. Anything ignore cover wrecks their bikes and the rest of them are really squishy and have set roles. assault the shooty, shoot the stabby.

You mean anything that ignores cover and is AP3. Tons of weapons in my arsenal like that.....ohh wait I dont have any. And assault the shooty? that really doesnt work when their shooty can put out anywhere between 12-40 S6 shots that are usually TL because of psychic shenanigans. Ohh look here goes my boyz to the assault...ohh look 1 turn of shooting reduced the 30 Boy mob to 10 models. I failed my morale check (Go figure) and lost another D6 models. Ohh here we go Im finally in range CHARGE! and then overwatch an im dead.

You're playing one of the worst codexes in the game currently and are surpised that it loses to one of the best and most recent? Interesting.
I also play orks and losing boyz is to be expected if you don't protect them and then even they are cheap. Also the majority of the shooting units can't put out that many s6 shots, only jetbikes back that power. Orks have the amazing ability to pump out loads of shots, which ironically is good against the eldar by forcing lots of saves, they can only save so many before even weak shots get through.

Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Dman137 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Space Marine bikers get 3+ because they wear Power Armor. Scout bikers get a 4+ because they wear Scout armor. Ork Bikers have a 4+ because they consider them to be Eavy Armor Boyz or Nobz.

Eldar get a 3+ because the clown who wrote the Eldar codex was TFG who never wanted to lose.

It's actually a typo from Rogue Trader that we think was never fixed.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Space Marine bikers get 3+ because they wear Power Armor. Scout bikers get a 4+ because they wear Scout armor. Ork Bikers have a 4+ because they consider them to be Eavy Armor Boyz or Nobz.

Eldar get a 3+ because the clown who wrote the Eldar codex was TFG who never wanted to lose.

and the eldar bikes should confer a 3+ save. Why would they get a 5+.? So bolters can kill them with no save, yeah no thanks clearly you missed the point of balance. But like I said before, GW won't fix and I'm just going to sit back and enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn

" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

Martel732 wrote:
" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

the reason so many players say ban Eldar

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

the reason so many players say ban Eldar

To bad they won't ban eldar hahaha

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

the reason so many players say ban Eldar

To bad they won't ban eldar hahaha

Maybe not from tournaments because they have to worry about getting enough players to attend. but a lot of local gaming clubs with people like you have basically told them to go feth themselves. In my area we have a great Eldar player who refuses to act like you. He plays competitive lists but doesn't take WK's and Scat bikes and the other BS Eldar shenanigans. In fact he is probably the best 40k Player I know, truly a fun guy to play with. But we also had a guy like you who would bring WK's and scat bikes and try to play a FW Eldar Titan. He isn't allowed at the store anymore.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

the reason so many players say ban Eldar

To bad they won't ban eldar hahaha

Maybe not from tournaments because they have to worry about getting enough players to attend. but a lot of local gaming clubs with people like you have basically told them to go feth themselves. In my area we have a great Eldar player who refuses to act like you. He plays competitive lists but doesn't take WK's and Scat bikes and the other BS Eldar shenanigans. In fact he is probably the best 40k Player I know, truly a fun guy to play with. But we also had a guy like you who would bring WK's and scat bikes and try to play a FW Eldar Titan. He isn't allowed at the store anymore.

competitive eldar player that doesn't have a WK or scattbikes is not a competitive player, second off you don't no what kind of player I am. In are local store we let anyone use what they want, it's a game get use to it, you think soccer teams are going to ban Ranaldo or messi because there to good.? Lmao it's a game with toy soldiers, people are to sensitive and clearly your really sensitive to eldar sorry I mentioned your trigger word lol

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Space Marine bikers get 3+ because they wear Power Armor. Scout bikers get a 4+ because they wear Scout armor. Ork Bikers have a 4+ because they consider them to be Eavy Armor Boyz or Nobz.

Eldar get a 3+ because the clown who wrote the Eldar codex was TFG who never wanted to lose.

and the eldar bikes should confer a 3+ save. Why would they get a 5+.? So bolters can kill them with no save, yeah no thanks clearly you missed the point of balance. But like I said before, GW won't fix and I'm just going to sit back and enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn

I must admit I've always wondered since 3rd why eldar bikes have a 3+ save.

 Formosa wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Space Marine bikers get 3+ because they wear Power Armor. Scout bikers get a 4+ because they wear Scout armor. Ork Bikers have a 4+ because they consider them to be Eavy Armor Boyz or Nobz.

Eldar get a 3+ because the clown who wrote the Eldar codex was TFG who never wanted to lose.

and the eldar bikes should confer a 3+ save. Why would they get a 5+.? So bolters can kill them with no save, yeah no thanks clearly you missed the point of balance. But like I said before, GW won't fix and I'm just going to sit back and enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn

I must admit I've always wondered since 3rd why eldar bikes have a 3+ save.

because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

the reason so many players say ban Eldar

To bad they won't ban eldar hahaha

Maybe not from tournaments because they have to worry about getting enough players to attend. but a lot of local gaming clubs with people like you have basically told them to go feth themselves. In my area we have a great Eldar player who refuses to act like you. He plays competitive lists but doesn't take WK's and Scat bikes and the other BS Eldar shenanigans. In fact he is probably the best 40k Player I know, truly a fun guy to play with. But we also had a guy like you who would bring WK's and scat bikes and try to play a FW Eldar Titan. He isn't allowed at the store anymore.

competitive eldar player that doesn't have a WK or scattbikes is not a competitive player, second off you don't no what kind of player I am. In are local store we let anyone use what they want, it's a game get use to it, you think soccer teams are going to ban Ranaldo or messi because there to good.? Lmao it's a game with toy soldiers, people are to sensitive and clearly your really sensitive to eldar sorry I mentioned your trigger word lol

Dman, you misunderstand the way im using competitive. I mean as in both sides have a chance to win. As far as me not know what kind of player you are? Well I can only go by the way you act on this forum and that is TFG. You make a list you claim is unbeatable, debate people on how their list is weaker then yours. and then you make a thread on how to make Eldar balanced but every suggestion you shoot down and then tell people to L2P or "get used to it". So going by what I have seen I would never want to play you because you would be the worst kind of opponent.

and DMan, Orks only get the +1 to CS if they Turbo Boost.

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

the reason so many players say ban Eldar

To bad they won't ban eldar hahaha

Maybe not from tournaments because they have to worry about getting enough players to attend. but a lot of local gaming clubs with people like you have basically told them to go feth themselves. In my area we have a great Eldar player who refuses to act like you. He plays competitive lists but doesn't take WK's and Scat bikes and the other BS Eldar shenanigans. In fact he is probably the best 40k Player I know, truly a fun guy to play with. But we also had a guy like you who would bring WK's and scat bikes and try to play a FW Eldar Titan. He isn't allowed at the store anymore.

competitive eldar player that doesn't have a WK or scattbikes is not a competitive player, second off you don't no what kind of player I am. In are local store we let anyone use what they want, it's a game get use to it, you think soccer teams are going to ban Ranaldo or messi because there to good.? Lmao it's a game with toy soldiers, people are to sensitive and clearly your really sensitive to eldar sorry I mentioned your trigger word lol

Ya its a GAME, as in it should be fair. The Eldar Dex isnt fair, and i play Ad Mech. Oh and the Windriders could have NO ARMOR and they would be fine, cuz they have a 2+ Jink, and you know that. And Soccer? That has absolutely NOTHING to do with tabletop wargames. And before you go babbling about how you can't possibly make that many armies balanced against each other, just remember that KoW did.

Dman137 wrote:
because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

Dark Eldar Reavers have a 5+ save. Harlequin Skyweavers (or whatever they're called) have a 4+. The fact that they're different from one another is stupid, but not as stupid as Eldar Windriders having a 3+. The fact that they're troops (instead of fast attack as is the case in the DE and Harlequin examples) is just salt in the wound.

Feel free to continue trolling this thread with your horrible punctuation and L2P attitude, but you're attempts at applying reason to justify the way things shook out with the new Eldar codex are insulting to smart people everywhere. Try harder.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

Dark Eldar Reavers have a 5+ save. Harlequin Skyweavers (or whatever they're called) have a 4+. The fact that they're different from one another is stupid, but not as stupid as Eldar Windriders having a 3+. The fact that they're troops (instead of fast attack as is the case in the DE and Harlequin examples) is just salt in the wound.

Feel free to continue trolling this thread with your horrible punctuation and L2P attitude, but you're attempts at applying reason to justify the way things shook out with the new Eldar codex are insulting to smart people everywhere. Try harder.

I also need to point out that Ork Warbikes have a 4+ save not a 3+ and has been said Ork Bikes only get +1 cover when turboboosting and that means they didnt do anything useful. They used to just have a 4+ cover save from their exhaust clod and all the dust, but that was the old dex.

Dman137 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Space Marine bikers get 3+ because they wear Power Armor. Scout bikers get a 4+ because they wear Scout armor. Ork Bikers have a 4+ because they consider them to be Eavy Armor Boyz or Nobz.

Eldar get a 3+ because the clown who wrote the Eldar codex was TFG who never wanted to lose.

and the eldar bikes should confer a 3+ save. Why would they get a 5+.? So bolters can kill them with no save, yeah no thanks clearly you missed the point of balance. But like I said before, GW won't fix and I'm just going to sit back and enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn

I must admit I've always wondered since 3rd why eldar bikes have a 3+ save.

because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

For the record, mate, ARMOUR SAVE isn't affected by your speed.
JINK SAVE is speed, as represented by how the model JINKS to avoid damage and whatnot.

Therefore, you can still have low armour, and still be fast (Dark Eldar, with 5+ armour and Jink), high armour and be slow (Space Marine Infantry with 3+ and no Jink), or high armour and still be fast (Eldar, with 3+ AND Jink) which could explain some of the hate against Eldar jetbikes.

Just putting that out there, but ARMOUR SAVE is not, and never will be, affected by speed of the model. Just it's ARMOUR, hence why it is called the ARMOUR SAVE.

Due to the recent flurry of responses, the ratio of regular posts to my troll posts has been diluted. Fixing that!

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

Much as it pains me, I do concede that for the sake of consistency Windriders should have a 4+ armour save.

Your "Veteran Windriders" suggestion valid, but a tad misguided. Give Windriders a better save, increase their leadership and points cost, and move them into Fast Attack and you get...Shining Spears! The worst unit in the Eldar codex! And before you ask, Shining Spears would be bad in any other codex too. But the "Veteran Windriders" idea would go a long way toward fixing them. The question them becomes what to do with their laser lances...

Dman137 wrote:House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Space Marines have power armour. Ork bikers have heavy metal/durasteel plates strapped to their chests. Guardians wear the protective equivalent of cardboard. To keep things consistent with other Eldar jetbikes (Reavers, Harlequin bikes) Windriders should be T4 4+ armour.

Are you seriously suggesting that house rules are a bad thing? Are we reading from the same rulebook and playing the same game here? Warhammer 40,000 is a poorly-written and terribly balanced mess of a game. I can be great fun and engaging, but only if all the participants involved agree on some solutions to the inherent problems of 40k. When you go someplace or play people that are unfamiliar, you can use the mystical human skill of "communication" to find out what their house rules are and How They Would Play It. All the major Tournaments already have their own special house rules, if you didn't already know. ITC, BAO, and NOVA are the three rulesets that seem to have caught on with other groups (not entirely sure about the LVO, as I haven't personally heard much about people using it). In a game as open-ended as 40k, "scrub mentality" doesn't exist. There is a learning curve to the game, but the same principle does not apply to a game like 40k in its current state.

Ghazkuul wrote:Space Marine bikers get 3+ because they wear Power Armor. Scout bikers get a 4+ because they wear Scout armor. Ork Bikers have a 4+ because they consider them to be Eavy Armor Boyz or Nobz.

Eldar get a 3+ because the clown who wrote the Eldar codex was The Dark Lord Phil Kelly.

Fixed that for you.

Martel732 wrote:It's actually a typo from Rogue Trader that we think was never fixed.

The plot thickens!

Also, Eldar had jetbikes in Rogue Trader? I shudder to think about how those looked...

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

the reason so many players say ban Eldar

To bad they won't ban eldar hahaha

Maybe not from tournaments because they have to worry about getting enough players to attend. but a lot of local gaming clubs with people like you have basically told them to go feth themselves. In my area we have a great Eldar player who refuses to act like you. He plays competitive lists but doesn't take WK's and Scat bikes and the other BS Eldar shenanigans. In fact he is probably the best 40k Player I know, truly a fun guy to play with. But we also had a guy like you who would bring WK's and scat bikes and try to play a FW Eldar Titan. He isn't allowed at the store anymore.

competitive eldar player that doesn't have a WK or scattbikes is not a competitive player, second off you don't no what kind of player I am. In are local store we let anyone use what they want, it's a game get use to it, you think soccer teams are going to ban Ranaldo or messi because there to good.? Lmao it's a game with toy soldiers, people are to sensitive and clearly your really sensitive to eldar sorry I mentioned your trigger word lol

Seriously Dman137, you're giving yourself and Eldar players in general a bad name. We already have a bad reputation, and you're just making it worse.

I consider myself at least a somewhat competitive player, and I don't use Scatbikers or a Wraithknight. I find it more fun and more in keeping with the Eldar lore (which is part of what attracted me to the army) to use Aspect Warriors and other underused units to win. Gives more of a challenge, gets you more opponents, and is more satisfying when you win.

The "It's just a game/I'm just using what the codex lets me/L2P scrub" argument doesn't work in a game of fundamental unbalance and bad rules writing. The attitude doesn't help either. You're beginning to be falling into the dreaded but legitimate definition of TFG. And as a side note, "Trigger word" jokes aren't funny.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

Dark Eldar Reavers have a 5+ save. Harlequin Skyweavers (or whatever they're called) have a 4+. The fact that they're different from one another is stupid, but not as stupid as Eldar Windriders having a 3+. The fact that they're troops (instead of fast attack as is the case in the DE and Harlequin examples) is just salt in the wound.

Feel free to continue trolling this thread with your horrible punctuation and L2P attitude, but you're attempts at applying reason to justify the way things shook out with the new Eldar codex are insulting to smart people everywhere. Try harder.

You and a lot of you are just being salty