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Doesn't matter that they have it now, it matters if it is balanced.

So start making your case why Battle Focus is balanced.

Earlier in this thread I believe somebody raised the possibility for Battle Focus and Bladestorm being an either/or deal. In much the same way that WFB Dwarfs get different bonuses depending on whether they charge or are charged;

Bladestorm is only active if the model did not Run before or after firing. This represents the model taking a more planted stance and giving time to aim it's stream of fire into the weaker armour bits.
Of course Run&Gun is still there as an option, but it's all resolved as AP5.

Potential? I wouldn't mind Bladestorm remaining AP2 in this situation either.

See, this is people overreacting. Complaining about Battle Focus, honestly. Battle Focus is a fantastic rule, it's balanced, and frankly Eldar needed a bit of something ever since Fleet stopped being a big deal (before, they and DE were the only ones with Fleet, and no one could Run in those days, and you could assault).

I mean no one's asking Space Marines to have Doctrines stripped. It's a good, balanced rule.

Dragannia wrote:
See, this is people overreacting. Complaining about Battle Focus, honestly. Battle Focus is a fantastic rule, it's balanced, and frankly Eldar needed a bit of something ever since Fleet stopped being a big deal (before, they and DE were the only ones with Fleet, and no one could Run in those days, and you could assault).

I mean no one's asking Space Marines to have Doctrines stripped. It's a good, balanced rule.

I agree battle focus is a bloody good rule and it WAS balanced, until the auto 6" run was introduced, that was not needed.

Dragannia wrote:
See, this is people overreacting. Complaining about Battle Focus, honestly. Battle Focus is a fantastic rule, it's balanced, and frankly Eldar needed a bit of something ever since Fleet stopped being a big deal (before, they and DE were the only ones with Fleet, and no one could Run in those days, and you could assault).

I mean no one's asking Space Marines to have Doctrines stripped. It's a good, balanced rule.

I don't really take alternate accounts seriously...

 Formosa wrote:

Dragannia wrote:
See, this is people overreacting. Complaining about Battle Focus, honestly. Battle Focus is a fantastic rule, it's balanced, and frankly Eldar needed a bit of something ever since Fleet stopped being a big deal (before, they and DE were the only ones with Fleet, and no one could Run in those days, and you could assault).

I mean no one's asking Space Marines to have Doctrines stripped. It's a good, balanced rule.

I agree battle focus is a bloody good rule and it WAS balanced, until the auto 6" run was introduced, that was not needed.

Most people complain about Scatterbikes, WKs and Wraithguard. Battle Focus doesn't affect any of them. WKs only get the auto 6" if they're part of both a Wraith Host and a War Host, which hardly ever happens - same applies to Wraithguard. Guardian Warhosts are hardly competitive superstars. Windrider hosts get them but Scatterbikes don't benefit, plus you have to take a few tax units, plus the only thing they would affect is if you take a full Aspect Host. Although strong, I don't think many people would say things like Dire Avengers or Swooping Hawks are overpowered with an auto 6" Battle Focus.

Wait, people still complain about Battle Focus? Should we just remove army-wide special rules now? Would that make everyone happy? But of course, only if Spess Mahreens can keep their ATSKNF, right?

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wait, people still complain about Battle Focus? Should we just remove army-wide special rules now? Would that make everyone happy? But of course, only if Spess Mahreens can keep their ATSKNF, right?

See, this defense is something I will never understand.

Why are Space Marines being dragged into a thread about Eldar balance?

"Because if you nerf one faction, and keep another the same then it just shifts the problem".

I can agree with that sure, but what does it have to do with balancing Eldar per the OP's request? Not much really, other than being a way out for those without the ability to seriously consider the question. You want to talk about Space Marines? Fine, lets not de-rail what is potentially a productive thread with it. This thread is about the discussion of Eldar, not Space Marines. Start your own "Space Marine balancing" thread if you wish to talk about that- be warned however, most people openly admit to them having some good stuff and you won't get the flame bait reaction you're looking for.

All that said, not everyone complaining about Eldar is a Space Marine player so you're essentially handwaiving everything every other faction player says.

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wait, people still complain about Battle Focus? Should we just remove army-wide special rules now? Would that make everyone happy? But of course, only if Spess Mahreens can keep their ATSKNF, right?

See, this defense is something I will never understand.

Why are Space Marines being dragged into a thread about Eldar balance?

"Because if you nerf one faction, and keep another the same then it just shifts the problem".

I can agree with that sure, but what does it have to do with balancing Eldar per the OP's request? Not much really, other than being a way out for those without the ability to seriously consider the question. You want to talk about Space Marines? Fine, lets not de-rail what is potentially a productive thread with it. This thread is about the discussion of Eldar, not Space Marines. Start your own "Space Marine balancing" thread if you wish to talk about that- be warned however, most people openly admit to them having some good stuff and you won't get the flame bait reaction you're looking for.

All that said, not everyone complaining about Eldar is a Space Marine player so you're essentially handwaiving everything every other faction player says.

My point is that Battle Focus is a very fluffy army-wide special rule, that in itself is not OP or game breaking, hence I'm surprised people are still complaining about it. I was simply implying if that people are saying they should remove/change it, then they would have to do the same for every other faction's special rule.

Eldar jetbikes have been 4+ save in my houserules since the 6th ed dex. They use the same bike as the harlequins, so they should get the same save. In regards to the reavers, they take off the heavy cowling on the front to add pointy bits. That's why they are only 5+.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wait, people still complain about Battle Focus? Should we just remove army-wide special rules now? Would that make everyone happy? But of course, only if Spess Mahreens can keep their ATSKNF, right?

See, this defense is something I will never understand.

Why are Space Marines being dragged into a thread about Eldar balance?

"Because if you nerf one faction, and keep another the same then it just shifts the problem".

I can agree with that sure, but what does it have to do with balancing Eldar per the OP's request? Not much really, other than being a way out for those without the ability to seriously consider the question. You want to talk about Space Marines? Fine, lets not de-rail what is potentially a productive thread with it. This thread is about the discussion of Eldar, not Space Marines. Start your own "Space Marine balancing" thread if you wish to talk about that- be warned however, most people openly admit to them having some good stuff and you won't get the flame bait reaction you're looking for.

All that said, not everyone complaining about Eldar is a Space Marine player so you're essentially handwaiving everything every other faction player says.

My point is that Battle Focus is a very fluffy army-wide special rule, that in itself is not OP or game breaking, hence I'm surprised people are still complaining about it. I was simply implying if that people are saying they should remove/change it, then they would have to do the same for every other faction's special rule.

Okay, while I agree with your thought, I'm not sure why it couldn't have been made that way first, without bringing another specific faction in at all. Just a thought.

The problem isn't that Battle Focus itself is too good. The problem comes from the combination of Bladestorm and the weapons from other units who have Battle Focus. It reaks havoc on Close Combat armies by making the distance that they have to travel to actually make it to close combat even further. On top of that, normal units have to make the tough call between standing and firing off another round of shooting before being charged and hopefully make enough of a dent to matter, or running away. Elder get to do both. And again not a huge problem until you factor in that the unit of 10 point Guardians can pseudo-rend apart heavy units- let's use terminators for example- who depend on and pay heavily for their armor.

It's entirely disheartening to see a unit of Guardians (or whatever unit really) that was just within striking distance for your next turn move away 12" from you in their turn. And not only that but they also killed 3 terminators just to salt the wound. Not that this scenario really means anything in the overall picture, it just gives an idea as to the reason behind my thinking.

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Wait, people still complain about Battle Focus? Should we just remove army-wide special rules now? Would that make everyone happy? But of course, only if Spess Mahreens can keep their ATSKNF, right?

See, this defense is something I will never understand.

Why are Space Marines being dragged into a thread about Eldar balance?

"Because if you nerf one faction, and keep another the same then it just shifts the problem".

I can agree with that sure, but what does it have to do with balancing Eldar per the OP's request? Not much really, other than being a way out for those without the ability to seriously consider the question. You want to talk about Space Marines? Fine, lets not de-rail what is potentially a productive thread with it. This thread is about the discussion of Eldar, not Space Marines. Start your own "Space Marine balancing" thread if you wish to talk about that- be warned however, most people openly admit to them having some good stuff and you won't get the flame bait reaction you're looking for.

All that said, not everyone complaining about Eldar is a Space Marine player so you're essentially handwaiving everything every other faction player says.

My point is that Battle Focus is a very fluffy army-wide special rule, that in itself is not OP or game breaking, hence I'm surprised people are still complaining about it. I was simply implying if that people are saying they should remove/change it, then they would have to do the same for every other faction's special rule.

Okay, while I agree with your thought, I'm not sure why it couldn't have been made that way first, without bringing another specific faction in at all. Just a thought.

The problem isn't that Battle Focus itself is too good. The problem comes from the combination of Bladestorm and the weapons from other units who have Battle Focus. It reaks havoc on Close Combat armies by making the distance that they have to travel to actually make it to close combat even further. On top of that, normal units have to make the tough call between standing and firing off another round of shooting before being charged and hopefully make enough of a dent to matter, or running away. Elder get to do both. And again not a huge problem until you factor in that the unit of 10 point Guardians can pseudo-rend apart heavy units- let's use terminators for example- who depend on and pay heavily for their armor.

It's entirely disheartening to see a unit of Guardians (or whatever unit really) that was just within striking distance for your next turn move away 12" from you in their turn. And not only that but they also killed 3 terminators just to salt the wound. Not that this scenario really means anything in the overall picture, it just gives an idea as to the reason behind my thinking.

I mean, Battle Focus is good. So is Reanimation Protocols. One thing I don't think people keep in mind when bringing up the auto-6" run is that they need to be part of their Decurion-ish detachment, which who in their right mind would do that? Too many "terrible" tax units when you could just bring a CAD with Scatterbikes and be done.

Battle Focus on it's own isn't so bad, which is what you'll see on the table most of the time. And yeah, bladestorm will hurt Terminators quite bad, but keep this in mind about Guardians. They are T3 with a 5+ save, and their awesome guns are only 12" range. And then Dire Avengers are almost as expensive as Space Marines, and Heavy Bolters eat them alive (Not that anyone takes Heavy Bolters anyway). I'm not saying don't bother charging them, but I'm saying that even Ork shooting would probably kill Guardians, and even some Dire Avengers.

Also, they added battle focus to account for the significant range boost every other army got in 6th edition.

Before that, if you moved with rapid fire guns, you couldn't fire at full range. That meant guardians and space marines on the move had the same threat range. When 6th hit, those marines could walk away from the guardians wiping them out at max range, and there wasn't a damn thing the guardians could do about it. Now, the guardians still can't achieve the maximum threat range, but they have tactical options to make up for it.

Bladestorm is to counteract the eldar survivability issues and allow them to combat the wraith construct armies effectively.

They priced scatterlasers as though they weren't all on relentless platforms, which was wrong to do.

The issue is the survivability level on jet bikes is too high. Give them a 4+ save and you won't see as much bitterness.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

The issue is the survivability level on jet bikes is too high. Give them a 4+ save and you won't see as much bitterness.

This^. This needs to happen.

So, anecdotal evidence warning----

I played the new Eldar codex (after it took me a long time to un-shelve the army and play with the new codex), against my buddy that is a Tau player. First game included a Wraithknight with book D rules, a seer council on foot, Karandras in an infiltrating unit of scorpions, etc. Game went to turn 7 with my Eldar down to just a couple of shadow weavers and the wraithknight, and the tau had a remora running around. Second game had a couple full units of scatterbikes, a jetseer council, wraithknight, and all the other shenanigans that I could think of. Went to turn 7 again, and Eldar wound up with just the wraithknight, a crimson hunter, and a few warp spiders on the table.

Game tonight was my endless swarm nids vs tau. I wound up with the swarmlord and 75+ wounds worth of gaunts and warriors on the table at the end of turn 4, with plenty of table control and one unit of 30 hormagaunts on the way back through a trygon tunnel. Tau backed into their own deployment zone and tied up in multiple combats.

Now I realize this is my experience vs (apparently everyone elses) experience of Eldar games, but the fact that I've gotten tabled turn 2-3 vs stuff like Admech and Daemons, yet not even come close to doing that much damage with the cheesiest Eldar I could field vs Tau... kinda makes me think Eldar rage is a bit unfounded...

". kinda makes me think Eldar rage is a bit unfounded..."

It's not. You should be slaughtering these lists. The combination of scatterbike and WK should be tabling people with ease.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Also, they added battle focus to account for the significant range boost every other army got in 6th edition.

Before that, if you moved with rapid fire guns, you couldn't fire at full range. That meant guardians and space marines on the move had the same threat range. When 6th hit, those marines could walk away from the guardians wiping them out at max range, and there wasn't a damn thing the guardians could do about it. Now, the guardians still can't achieve the maximum threat range, but they have tactical options to make up for it.

Bladestorm is to counteract the eldar survivability issues and allow them to combat the wraith construct armies effectively.

They priced scatterlasers as though they weren't all on relentless platforms, which was wrong to do.

The issue is the survivability level on jet bikes is too high. Give them a 4+ save and you won't see as much bitterness.

Again, this isn't all about Marines. That said your point is still a good one.

Eldar Shuriken catapults are assault however. It's a different role they are filling with a different weapon. In a vacuum sure, the marines are going to win hands down, but generally speaking you're not going to try and take on tacticals with Guardians. Eldar have other weapons to deal with the marines walking away, and let the Guardians focus on the advancing Close Combat units. But I digress.

Bladestorm is still too good. There is plenty of weapons in the game now a days that take on the "anti-MEQ/TEQ" fine. The normal 10 point troop of any faction shouldn't be a tool as effective at it as they currently are.

I also do agree on the jetbike armor save and scatter lasers.

It's not. You should be slaughtering these lists. The combination of scatterbike and WK should be tabling people with ease.

I know right, but apparently my IQ is about 5 so I can't =/

 Cytharai wrote:
I know right, but apparently my IQ is about 5 so I can't =/

It's likely a matter of practice and actual table-top viciousness and efficiency. Not intelligence. Two of my Eldar opponents say their goal is to table every opponent with zero losses. That's their expectation and they go from there. They're not in it to give anyone a "sporting chance". It's a math exercise.

Martel732 wrote:
It's likely a matter of practice and actual table-top viciousness and efficiency. Not intelligence. Two of my Eldar opponents say their goal is to table every opponent with zero losses. That's their expectation and they go from there. They're not in it to give anyone a "sporting chance". It's a math exercise.

Yep, I told my Tau buddy that that I was going to try to table with the second game (he was fine with playtesting btw). I rolled no fortunes with the jetseer council, and they got splatted like anything else that is a 3+ non-rerollable save in the game. I'm not saying Eldar aren't top tier. But there's more than Eldar sitting in the top tier spot right now... pretty much everything post BA codex.

I've seen Eldar lists relying on specific psychic powers less and less, and more on brute firepower to make sure that nothing gets to shoot back. Remember that scatterbikes outrange firewarriors by 6' and then get an assault move. They literally can't hit you.

Scatterbikes have a hard time outranging deepstriking crisis suits. Remember that scatterbikes that are sitting at their own table edge have about a 50/50 chance of busting morale when they have to take a test, and are almost guaranteed to run off the board at that point.

On the other hand they always outrange IG units while being able to wiped out blobs, vets and chimeras with no problem and they do it alone. Yet eldar armies somehow manged to put other stuff besides scatter bikes in to their lists.

IMO if w40k suppose to be more narrative and true to fluff, then we should do this. Keep the eldar rules as they are, GW says eldar are OP, so let them be OP. But give them a rule that represents their dieing out. Each eldar lost should be a tragedy and losing an HQ or character should be a huge hit for the eldar race as a whole. 1 VP per dead eldar and more if the one dieing is someone important.

Which IG units though? Yeah scatterbikes outrange lasguns, but they don't outrange IG artillery...

I realize I'm playing evils advocate here, but when there's stuff like turn 1 charges, and rerollable 2+ cover saves (without any sort of randomness involved) I just throw any semblance of balance out the window.

So saying something is overpowered is like saying "well yeah, this army can curbstomp even HARDER than that army can curbstomp!"

 Cytharai wrote:
Scatterbikes have a hard time outranging deepstriking crisis suits. Remember that scatterbikes that are sitting at their own table edge have about a 50/50 chance of busting morale when they have to take a test, and are almost guaranteed to run off the board at that point.

To me, if you are deep striking, you are already losing because you just piecemealed yourself.

Oh god..... everyone loves to complain... dont wry all pretty soon every army will be cheese.

Once people learn that crying over op while doing nothing to prepare and counter them is going to do nothing, the amount of complaining should stop.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Once people learn that crying over op while doing nothing to prepare and counter them is going to do nothing, the amount of complaining should stop.

Nope. I know how to fight Newdar, and haven't lost to them yet. Doesn't mean we all can't complain about the slap in the face GW gave other codexes when they released Codex Eldar: Cheeseworlds.

Yeah, super cheese, not like the most common opponent in the whole game by a significant margin has the ability to eliminate pretty much ANY strong unit turn 1 with no chance of being able to stop them... oh wait...they can.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Yeah, super cheese, not like the most common opponent in the whole game by a significant margin has the ability to eliminate pretty much ANY strong unit turn 1 with no chance of being able to stop them... oh wait...they can.

I'm assuming you're talking about C:SM, as in Skyhammer and Gladius? If so, I agree, and they are also rightfully complained about.