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Dman137 wrote:
So seeing as there has been a lot of hate towards the eldar codex (it does have some cheese lol) what things should you change in the book to balance it.?

My thoughts.

Dump the formations (goes for every army really, not Eldar specific), or if they must be kept, tone down the bonuses.

Dump "runes of the farseer" or make Farseers 25pts more.

Increase Warp Spiders to 22ppm or dump "Flickerjump".

Jetbikes only get one heavy weapon per 3 models, perhaps a 5pt price increase on Scatterlasers. If they're to be kept at the current arrangement of 1 heavy weapon per Jetbike, increase cost per heavy weapon to 20pts instead of 10.

Fire Dragons lose their special "AP0" thing, this makes them essentially as capable at one-shotting vehicles as D-weapons, which is simply not warranted.

D-Scythes & Heavy D-Scythes back to S4 AP2, Wraith Cannons & D-Cannons back to S10 AP2.

Wraithknight up to ~400/425pts.

Increase the cost of bike upgrades for characters from 15 to at least 20pts in line with costs of other books (particularly given how much more capable Jetbikes are)

EDIT: also, make Dark Eldar allies of Convenience or Desperation, not BB's. The Craftworld Eldar aren't *that* trusting of their dark brethren.

@dragannia: Thank you for writing my post for me.

@Kanluwen: Technically, it was a corsair vessel captained by an ex-Comorrite.

Aside from the genuinely problematic units (bikes and wraith knights), most of the codex strong-but-fine. Most aspects could probably use a one or two point price increase just to reflect that they all mostly got better in one way or another at no points increase with this last book, but that's pretty mild.

I'm still a bit surprised when people complain about the *durability* of jetbikes. They are exactly as tough as marines standing in cover, except that they lose their fire power in order to have that 4+ cover save. And last time I checked, people were complaining about marines being squishy. And they cost more. Jetbikes are good but mostly fine until you start getting into heavy weapon issues. Making heavy weapons 1 in 3 again would probably fix them, but I wouldn't be opposed to increasing their cost back to 4th/5th edition prices. They were seldom used as anything but a squishy last minute objective grabber in 5th, but they've since gained the benefit of bladestorm, jink, and hammer of wrath. At 5th edition prices, you were paying about 150 points for 6 bikes and a couple of special guns, right? That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Regarding, exarchs being 2 wounds, I say make this a thing for all sargeants (except *maybe* noz who should get something else instead). It stinks when your character whiffs some attacks or is on the bad end of a failed save and takes all the cool gear with him. I'd be happy to see all sargeants go up a couple of points but gain a wound.

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Kanluwen: Technically, it was a corsair vessel captained by an ex-Comorrite.

Yeah, and the other book was apparently a matter of necessity, let's all join forces or the Tyranids eat the universe. I didn't read it though.

I've seen people say things like this:

You have to remember other sources as well. We know for a fact the initiation into the Incubi requires killing an Aspect Warrior. We know the greatest prize of all for a Succubus is an Autarch's helmet. We know (from Path of the Warrior) that attacks on Craftworld ships aren't particularly uncommon, and that the standard practice for captives is execution. We know (from Path of the Seer) that the Craftworlders attitude towards the Dark Eldar borders on abject terror and disgust.


So, I really never had the battle brother impression. More like "watch your back".

DE. The whole faction practically needs a rework. They don't got speed on their side anymore.

Wyldhunt wrote:

I'm still a bit surprised when people complain about the *durability* of jetbikes. They are exactly as tough as marines standing in cover, except that they lose their fire power in order to have that 4+ cover save. And last time I checked, people were complaining about marines being squishy. And they cost more.

The issue is that they have that kind of survivability on-demand, on top of probably the best mobility in the game, while also being Troops, and capable of putting out extreme firepower. Space Marines can do like two of these things. Even if we discount the firepower, the mobility is huge, the on-demand cover save doesn't require any maneuvering or sacrifice of mobility.

I just got around to looking up the ATC results from last month.

I'm used to playing eldar with ITC restrictions in place. 1 WK max that gives up maelstrom points, ranged D a little nerfed etc.

Apparently their event was significantly less restricted...and dear god.

Out of 240 armies, the top 10 performing was utterly dominated by eldar. They had 7 of the top 10 with a couple more a short ways behind, with only 34 eldar armies total. That's over 25% of the eldar armies at the event crammed into roughly the top 5% of performances. O.O

Jetbikes, Move them to FA, 1 in 3 Heavy weapons, reduce Armor save to 4+.

WK: Remove Strength D weapons, they have no place in 40k. 100pt increase MINIMUM. MC not Gargantuan.

Firedragons or whatever the feth they are called: They are melta not super fething melta, AP1 not AP0.

Not allowed to ally with DE because it doesnt make any fething sense.

All Eldar Units have a 5-10% increase in cost.

Exarchs 1 W, not 2.

Wraith: no D scythes here either, no place in 40k.

Phoenix Lords: Fine, they can be this completely OP im ok with that, but they cost an extra 30-50pts each.

I never understood why the Eldar Jetbikes conferred a 3+.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:
@Kanluwen: Technically, it was a corsair vessel captained by an ex-Comorrite.

Yeah, and the other book was apparently a matter of necessity, let's all join forces or the Tyranids eat the universe. I didn't read it though.

I've seen people say things like this:

You have to remember other sources as well. We know for a fact the initiation into the Incubi requires killing an Aspect Warrior. We know the greatest prize of all for a Succubus is an Autarch's helmet. We know (from Path of the Warrior) that attacks on Craftworld ships aren't particularly uncommon, and that the standard practice for captives is execution. We know (from Path of the Seer) that the Craftworlders attitude towards the Dark Eldar borders on abject terror and disgust.


So, I really never had the battle brother impression. More like "watch your back".

I actually agree, certainly DE shouldn't be battle brothers. The only real faction I see as BB with Eldar is Harlequins.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
But their maximum threat range is 18" and you must purchase 3 squads of them minimum in that formation.

Just FYI, if you buy them wave serpents they can hit a target 26" away with 5 d-scythes (6" transport move, 6" disembark, auto 6" battle focus, 8" flamer template). And having T6 3+ fearless jump troops (6" move+6" battle focus) with D-flamers is way better than any other jump unit in the game. For example, against AP2 a squad of 5 is only 16.7% less survivable than a dreadknight while dealing out significantly more damage, for the same cost. They are not a bad buy at all in that formation.



The irony of the thread is that there were many like it before the latest codex, and most of them (like this one) came to the same conclusions. Then the Eldar got a new codex...

Wraithknight becomes 450 points, Heavy Weapons are 1 in 3 for Windriders. Done.

Maybe just an afterword explaining some of decisions and comparing them to equally daft things in the other newer (SM, AdMech and Necron) Codexs

What changes are required to improve eldar codex?

Highlight everything. Press delete. Print. Done.

People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

It is true that Eldar and Dark Eldar loathe each other and there are plenty of instances of them coming into conflict. But in most of those cases, the fighting ended in a negotiated settlement or truce. That isn't something the Eldar or any other faction in the game normally do to their enemies. It means that, for all the bad blood on each side, Eldar and Dark Eldar respect each others' fighting prowess. For a race as arrogant as the Eldar, that speaks volumes.

Dark Eldar and Eldar don't just ally out of appreciation for each others killing prowess; they do so because they see each other as the only natural allies they have. The Eldar believe that they are the children of their gods, and that their psychic potential and knowledge coupled with some of the most advanced technology in the galaxy makes them the rightful rulers of the Milky Way. The Eldar ruled the galaxy before the Fall, and are dead set on doing so again. All other races are at best pawns to be used, at worst vermin to be exterminated.Dark Eldar, for all their cultural and societal differences from the Craftworlds, are still Eldar. That automatically puts them head and shoulders above any other race in terms of potential allies. It speaks volumes of the Eldar tendency for hubris that they would sooner consider allying with a dark and twisted mirror of their own society than with any other potential alien race.

The biggest problem is the ability to abuse Battle Brothers via the use of the other factions' dedicated transports, not the fact that Eldar and Dark Eldar can ally like this.

EDIT: Double post.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

So by that logic then IoM and Chaos should all be allies. you know, since blood is thicker then water.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

The Dark Eldar are the same Eldar that brought the dark fate upon the Eldar race that the Craftworlders sought to save themselves from through total isolation. They hate each other intensely.

There aren't even particularly many fluff examples of them fighting together. In fact, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is the DE coming to aid Iyanden, and only at the very end, out of "amusement" for the debasment that the craftworld was reduced to in having to use its dead to defend themselves.

Nobody is saying they should be "Come the Apocalypse" or anything, or that they don't have certain shared...perspectives, but they're hardly anything like the relationship between Imperial factions, and even amongst many of them the BB label is probably inappropriate.

I see alot interesting rules in the Eldar codex and don't think that they need to go. What will fix Eldar for me would be points price hike to correspond with their 'dieing race' theme. They are elite army with cheap units right now, wich do not feel right.

There's a fluff bit in the 1998 DE codex involving an Archon personally decapitating an Exarch, while his Incubi are busy murdering the Scorpions retinue.

It's hard to see them as anything other than Allies of Convience unless they start retconning all the older stuff out.

Yoyoyo wrote:
There's a fluff bit in the 1998 DE codex involving an Archon personally decapitating an Exarch, while his Incubi are busy murdering the Scorpions retinue.

It's hard to see them as anything other than Allies of Convience unless they start retconning all the older stuff out.

Indeed, there was another story, I can't remember exactly where (I'll need to look for it), of a Farseer closing off paths of the webway to prevent their potential use by the Dark Eldar.

Ghazkuul wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

So by that logic then IoM and Chaos should all be allies. you know, since blood is thicker then water.

Why do you think the Horus Heresy was such a traumatic event for mankind? "Brother fighting brother" is something that is constantly brought up.

Vaktathi wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

The Dark Eldar are the same Eldar that brought the dark fate upon the Eldar race that the Craftworlders sought to save themselves from through total isolation. They hate each other intensely.

There aren't even particularly many fluff examples of them fighting together. In fact, the only one I can think of off the top of my head is the DE coming to aid Iyanden, and only at the very end, out of "amusement" for the debasment that the craftworld was reduced to in having to use its dead to defend themselves.

Nobody is saying they should be "Come the Apocalypse" or anything, or that they don't have certain shared...perspectives, but they're hardly anything like the relationship between Imperial factions, and even amongst many of them the BB label is probably inappropriate.

Saim-Hann is noted for allying with Dark Eldar in attacks on Imperial worlds, and all three Eldar factions uniting to stop Ahriman from breaking into the Black Library. The only major conflict between the two is Uthwe fighting a Kabal over webway access, which again ended in a truce.

It's in neither side's best interest to fight the other, as all that does is kill more Eldar. The Craftworlds are too busy trying to preserve what's left of the Eldar empire, and the Dark Eldar need a constant supply of disposable slaves.

Yoyoyo wrote:There's a fluff bit in the 1998 DE codex involving an Archon personally decapitating an Exarch, while his Incubi are busy murdering the Scorpions retinue.

It's hard to see them as anything other than Allies of Convience unless they start retconning all the older stuff out.

None of that stuff has been retconned to my knowledge, but there are now plenty more examples of the two groups working together.

If Eldar and Dark Eldar are Allies of Convenience, then so are Dark Angels and Space Wolves, Ultramarines with any chapter that doesn't follow the Codex, and Flesh Tearers with everybody in the Imperium. Space Wolves are Come The Apocalypse with the Inquisition and Grey Knights. Believe me, I can go on.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
People really don't seem to understand why Eldar and Dark Eldar should be Battle-Brothers: blood is thicker than water.

It really isn't. In order to become an Incubus, you literally must kill an Eldar aspect warrior and steal his soul-stone, otherwise you can't be one. Eldar, that race that is so vengeful and protective that it will wipe out an entire planet's population to save one Eldar life.

There are several members of my family who are complete "wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire" pariahs for doing a whole lot less.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
If Eldar and Dark Eldar are Allies of Convenience, then so are Dark Angels and Space Wolves, Ultramarines with any chapter that doesn't follow the Codex, and Flesh Tearers with everybody in the Imperium. Space Wolves are Come The Apocalypse with the Inquisition and Grey Knights. Believe me, I can go on.

I think FW actually designated Carchodons as being Desperate Allies with all Imperium factions. So it wouldn't be entirely unprecedented.

 TheNewBlood wrote:


Saim-Hann is noted for allying with Dark Eldar in attacks on Imperial worlds

Is this in the current Eldar book? I'll admit I haven't read its fluff entirely.

That said, it sounds like convenience to me, you have the most xenophobic and aggressive craftworld, going out to destroy filthy "unclean", working with the crazies who are all too willing to destroy and otherwise...remove the "unclean" for their own reasons makes a lot of sense, but this hardly counts as anything indicative of "battle brothers".

and all three Eldar factions uniting to stop Ahriman from breaking into the Black Library.

Doesn't sound like BB behavior, that's something that threatens just about everyone.

The only major conflict between the two is Uthwe fighting a Kabal over webway access, which again ended in a truce.

was that the story I was thinking of? I can't remember where I read that.

It's in neither side's best interest to fight the other, as all that does is kill more Eldar.

While the Craftworlds may have some concern about killing other Eldar, the Dark Eldar really don't seem to have problems killing other Eldar, it's how they advance in rank, order their social hierarchy, join certain groups (like the Incubi), and generally just amuse themselves.

Although if we look at it another way, the reason that Eldar and Dark Eldar are battle brothers is because in the end they both have the same goal, Eldar supremacy.

Eldar are not "good". They're perfectly happy to see countless billions of the lesser races burn rather than lose one Eldar life. The only reason they'd stoop to helping (or appearing to help) a human would be if there was some greater benefit for Eldarkind.

Dark Eldar have the same worldview. They just don't have the same long term view as the Eldar, lacking Farseers as they do.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Although if we look at it another way, the reason that Eldar and Dark Eldar are battle brothers is because in the end they both have the same goal, Eldar supremacy.

Their goal is Eldar supremacy? They may make noise about such, sometimes the more aggressive groups will sometimes kill some humans ostensibly under such a banner, but the Dark Eldar are entirely content to remain in their webway pocket, with no real aspirations greater supremacy or rule,, while the craftworlds largely fight simply to survive and keep what they have from decaying further.

Dark Eldar have the same worldview. They just don't have the same long term view as the Eldar, lacking Farseers as they do.

Do they? They seem just as content to fight amongst themselves and kill each other as to fight against anyone else save for their need of slaves to sustain themselves on the pain of others on a scale greater than they can get from simply killing each other.

id probably just outright remove fortune from their magic table, replace the spell with something else. begone rerollable raves of nonsense. THE POWER OF THE EMPRAH COMPELS YOU!

everybody is getting a price jack somewhere either in wargear or in their model/unit point costs

the wraithhost is losing its wraithknight completely and we could go on and on about how we are going to alter their windriders

Wraithknights cost 1850 points

People butt hurt about jetbikes and I'm just over here with about 40 of them all with scatter lasers lol windriders don't need to be altered, they used to be 1/3 heavy weapons, that was crap seeing as only one of your guns would be in range while the 12" catapults would shoot dirt. They made the change so that eldar troops could keep up with other troops from some of the good codexs. At the end of the day yeah they can pump out a lot of shots, but there still just T4 with a 3+ save and LD8 it's a basic marine, there not fearless. I've had many of my units run off the board after losing 1 dude. So far in this whole thread all I've heard is crazy talk and pretty much everyone saying they should just make eldar crap. What everyone should do is find new strategys on how to compet against it, (if your a tournament player) we can all complain about every codex and what's Op about them, but the truth of the matter is GW isn't going to change anything, and the fact that people house rule eldar is just plain stupid. Wait until tau come out in September everyone is going to be bashing them and then the next dex and the next.. People can still have fun playing regardless of what you take. Also a side note, the rule book states that you can play games without points, so bring what ever you want and make it a crazy game.
If eldar what to compete at a tourney level then there book can stay as is, because believe me GW isn't done with releasing the cheese

Dman137 wrote:
People butt hurt about jetbikes and I'm just over here with about 40 of them all with scatter lasers lol windriders don't need to be altered, they used to be 1/3 heavy weapons, that was crap seeing as only one of your guns would be in range while the 12" catapults would shoot dirt. They made the change so that eldar troops could keep up with other troops from some of the good codexs.

That didn't seem to be a problem before the change. Eldar troops were already pretty solid in the last codex, and Jetbikes had already been a popular option in each Eldar Codex iteration for at least the last decade.

No, the change was made because GW makes rules based off of models, and *every* jetbike sprue has the heavy weapons on them (thus removing the need to include a distinct 4th heavy weapons sprue), so that's how they wrote the rules.

At the end of the day yeah they can pump out a lot of shots, but there still just T4 with a 3+ save and LD8 it's a basic marine, there not fearless.

It's a lot of shots, from across the board, at a high Strength, with incredible mobility, and with the ability to play "hide and seek" with assault-phase moves, and can be very seriously buffed in resiliency, killing power, and leadership by psyker support.

I've had many of my units run off the board after losing 1 dude.

Are you running minimum sized squads of 3? Then you're playing them as disposable MSU units, and that's just a risk you have to take with them. Just because they have vulnerabilities doesn't mean they can't still be overpowered.

So far in this whole thread all I've heard is crazy talk and pretty much everyone saying they should just make eldar crap. What everyone should do is find new strategys on how to compet against it

The "L2P" argument isn't super compelling. As I've stated in other threads, there's nothing new about fighting Eldar with the new codex, they don't have any new vulnerabilities or tricks to defeating them. There's no "trick" or "tactic" that people are just missing. The Eldar are just simply better at what they do than they were before.

Fire the staff who wrote the dex and the editor who approved it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sheit27 wrote:
Wraithknights cost 1850 points

I been asking for the WK to be bumped up 30pts like a IK Gallant.