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I'm a totally new player and the Tallarn raiders have sparked my imagination. I originally envisioned them as a kind of high mobility, quick strike army with excellent artillery support. The model was the army rangers, until I realized elite guardsmen sucked and mortars sucked. Anyway, after so much advice, the list is beginning to feel a bit scattered. My main questions:

1. Basilisks. I haven't seen a list with more than one of these. I like them a lot, but how unbalanced is this? What is the likely outcome?
2. Vox Casters and Heroic Senior Officer. These were planned together. Do I need these? I based it on the high mobility.
3. Bloat. Feel free to suggest dropping anything not of obvious value.
4. Consistency. Suggestions on shoring up the list by continuing with the theme.


1500 Pts - Imperial Guard Roster - Imperial Guard Tallarns

HQ: Command Platoon (14#, 500 Pts)
Command Platoon @ 500 Pts
Command Squad @ [139] Pts
Drop Troops; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters
1 Heroic Senior Officer @ [79] Pts
Drop Troops; Iron Discipline; Light Infantry; Surveyor; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol; Krak Grenades
4 Guardsmen @ [40] Pts
Drop Troops; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Master Vox-Caster; Lasgun (x3); Missile Launcher
6 Fire Support Squad @ [115] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x3); Autocannon (x3)
Sentinel Squadron @ [246] Pts
Drop Troops
3 Sentinel @ [246] Pts
Armoured Crew Compartment (x3); Drop Troops; Camo Netting (x3); Hunter Killer Missile (x3); Searchlight (x3); Lascannon (x3)

Troops: Infantry Platoon (36#, 500 Pts)
9 Armoured Fist @ 191 Pts
Sharpshooters; Vox Caster; Lasgun (x7); Flamer; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
1 Chimera @ [95] Pts
Camo Netting; Rough Terrain Modification; Searchlight; Smoke Launchers; Heavy Bolter; Hull Heavy Bolter
Infantry Platoon @ 309 Pts
Command Squad @ [93] Pts
Drop Troops; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters
1 Junior Officer @ [45] Pts
Drop Troops; Iron Discipline; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [28] Pts
Drop Troops; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Vox Caster; Lasgun (x2); Grenade Launcher (x1); Missile Launcher
9 Infantry Squad @ [108] Pts
Drop Troops; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Vox Caster; Lasgun (x7); Grenade Launcher; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Drop Troops; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [108] Pts
Drop Troops; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Vox Caster; Lasgun (x7); Grenade Launcher; Missile Launcher
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Drop Troops; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW

Fast Attack: Rough Rider Squad (5#, 60 Pts)
4 Rough Rider Squad @ 60 Pts
Vox Caster; Close Combat Weapon (x4); Hunting Lance (- LP) (x4)
1 Sergeant @ [11] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Hunting Lance

Fast Attack: Rough Rider Squad (5#, 60 Pts)
4 Rough Rider Squad @ 60 Pts
Vox Caster; Close Combat Weapon (x4); Hunting Lance (- LP) (x4)
1 Sergeant @ [11] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Hunting Lance

Heavy Support: Basilisk (3#, 379 Pts)
1 Basilisk @ 126 Pts
Camo Netting; Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Indirect Fire Capability
1 Basilisk @ 126 Pts
Camo Netting; Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Indirect Fire Capability
1 Basilisk @ 127 Pts
Camo Netting; Searchlight; Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Indirect Fire Capability

Total Roster Cost: 1499

I love Tallarns. I've got a CHQ, 45-man Platoon and Heavy Weapon platoon all in old Tallarn models. They're great.

But you came for advice, not for mutual admiration of Tallarn Desert Raiders, so here goes:



You don't need HSO's or Vox-Casters. They're bloat.

You don't need Camo-Netting. That's bloat.

You don't need a Searchlight on a piece of Artillery. That's bloat.

You don't need Sharpshooters on line squads. Re-rolling a few 1's on Lasguns isn't worth 10 per squad. That's bloat.

Surveyor and Krak Grenades? Bloat.

You don't want Grenade Launchers or Missile Launchers. Both are horrid weapons for the Guard as the Plasma Gun and Flamer are infinately better than the horribly overpriced Grenade Launcher, and the Autocannon beats the Missile Launcher against every AV except AV13 (where they tie) and AV14 (which the AC can't hurt), the Heavy Bolter beats the Missile Launcher against infantry, and the Lascannon beats the Missile Launcher against everything the Autocannon doesn't. Good news for you is that by ditching Sharpshooters, you can afford Lascannons in all your squads. Ain't that nice?

You don't want any special or heavy weapons in your CHQ, and you don't want heavy weapons in HQ squads, period. That'll just tempt you to use them as long range shooters and next thing you know you've got your important Ld givers destroyed by even the slightest bit of enemy fire.

You've got 3 Fast Attack Slots, stick 2 of the Sentinels in there rather than clumping all three in the HQ selection.

HK-Missiles, Camo-Netting, Armoured Crew Compartments and Searchlights are all bloat for a Sentinel. HK-Missiles are a joke, Camo-Netting doesn't do anything, Armoured Crew Compartment doesn't change the fact that Sentinels are AV10 and will die to anything, and Searchlights on more than 1 confers no additional benefit.

You don't have enough men either. 3 squads is too little at 1000 points, let alone 1500.

You want a Multi-Laser on that Chimera. Truth be told you don't want a Chimera at all. It's a single AV12 target sitting in a sea of Toughness 3 models. It's basically a beacon for all anti-tank weapons, and is essentially giving your opponent something to shoot with his Lascannons and Railguns. You either want more than one, or none.

If you do keep the Chimera, lose the upgrades. You don't need more than Extra Armour, and even that's debatable. Keep 'em cheap. Chimeras are expensive enough as it is.

I like the Light Infantry. I think it makes them Tallarn. The Basilisks are a nice touch as well, don't see people doing that too often.

Where this army falls over is in the details, and a chronic case of 'needs more men' syndrome.

From a bloat perspective, by dropping all of the bloat you gain back:

262 points, or 17% of your army spent on bloat.

Rebuilding this is thankfully quite easy, as the structure for the army is fine:

Doctrines:
Close-Order Drill (all that can have it do have it)
Light Infantry (all that can have it do have it)
Drop Troops (all that can have it do have it)
Iron Discipline
Rough Riders

CHQ:
JO w/Iron Discipline + Honorifica Imperialis
Veteran w/Company Standard
3 Guardsmen w/Flashlights
Sentinel w/Lascannon + Searchlight

Infantry Platoon:
JO w/Iron Discipline
4 Guardsmen w/Flamers
Chimera w/Multi-Laser + Heavy Bolter + Searchlight
Squad w/Las & Plas
Squad w/Las & Plas
Squad w/Las & Plas
Squad w/Las & Plas

Armoured Fist Squad w/Las & Plas
Chimera w/Multi-Laser + Heavy Bolter + Searchlight

2 Sentinels w/Lascannons + Searchlights

5 Rough Riders w/Hunting Lances
5 Rough Riders w/Hunting Lances

Basilisk w/Indirect Fire
Basilisk w/Indirect Fire
Basilisk w/Indirect Fire

The list loses the Fire Support Squad and the two RR Vet Sergeants, but gains two additional Infantry Squads, a Chimera and, most importantly, a Standard Bearer.

BYE

Thanks!

I've made most of the changes. I wish there was an easy way to add another chimera, but troops are where most of those points went.

One question though: Why split up the sentinels? I guess I'm missing their purpose. Wouldn't they be a pretty disruptive force as three? Is that one in the command squad just a heavy weapons backup?

blackdiamond wrote:
One question though: Why split up the sentinels? I guess I'm missing their purpose. Wouldn't they be a pretty disruptive force as three? Is that one in the command squad just a heavy weapons backup?

I would think it has to do with the order of setup for a standard game. With Fast attack coming last in placement, representing favorable maneuvering. The advantage of sticking them with the HQ is that they don’t take up Fast attack slots, if you wanted to use more Rough Riders or a hellhound.

blackdiamond wrote:I wish there was an easy way to add another chimera, but troops are where most of those points went.

Well, my rebuild above has 2 Chimeras, which isn't great, but it'll do. The important part is that you go from 3 squads to 5, and that's a huge difference.

blackdiamond wrote:One question though: Why split up the sentinels? I guess I'm missing their purpose. Wouldn't they be a pretty disruptive force as three? Is that one in the command squad just a heavy weapons backup?

Deploy at different times. Engage more targets. More scoring units. More durability.

BYE

I missed that second chimera. What do you think about adding a hellhound instead of the second chimera, if I can swing the points? It deflects some of the attention from the chimera and adds a bit more offensive bite.

Hellhounds are good, yes, but adding one Hellhound will just turn it into the target rather than the Chimera.

BYE

I sort of disagree dude i think that GLs are a great al around assault weopen and second of all dude wtf is bloat i think that his list has some issues but you should be alittle nicer ( but i guess you are a commisar after all ) and finally i agree you should have more of the missle launchers or a single heavy weopen and not like oe of each that isnt effective.

sorry for grammatical errors

8acon8oy wrote:I sort of disagree dude i think that GLs are a great al around assault weopen

And you base this on what exactly?

For two points more you trade S6 AP4 for S7 AP2.
For two points less you trade S3 AP6 for S4 AP4.
For two points more you trade S6 AP4 for S8 AP1 Melta.

There's no contest. In its current form the GL is worth 5 points at most, and it does nothing that other weapons cannot do at a better price. Two GLs = 16 points. A Plasma and a Flamer also = 16 points. I know which I'd rather have.

Basically it comes down to this, and this applies to Missile Launchers as well:

Grende Launchers are a versitile weapon in an army that doesn't need versitile weapons. Guard armies typically have so many slots for Special and Heavy Weapons than they can afford to specialise and bring whatever they need. They don't need to hedge their bets on weapons that can do a bit of everything - they can just bring multiple specific weapons. Need to kill tanks and infantry? Don't bring a Missile Launcher, bring a Lascannon and a Heavy Bolter. They'll both do a better job at their respective targets than a ML will, and you can afford to do it because your basic grunt only costs 6 points, meaning you have a lot of points left over for weapons.

8acon8oy wrote:and second of all dude wtf is bloat

Bloat is described as anything that adds to your army's cost without adding to the army's ability.

8acon8oy wrote:i think that his list has some issues but you should be alittle nicer

A little nicer? You from Warseer by any chance, 'cause I often here that catchcry there:

Poster 1: Posts terrible list.
Poster 2: You should do this.
Posters 3-48: You're being mean! Stop being mean!
Poster 2: Ignore how I'm saying it, look at what I'm saying. I'm trying to help.
Posters 3-48: You should ignore him Poster One, he's mean.
Poster 1: They're right! Go back to Dakka Poster 2, they're all mean there. And they stole my lunch money once.
Poster 2: You guys are crazy...
Posters 1: Let's talk about my army's fluff in this army tactics thread!
Posters 3-48: YAY! FLUFF!!

I didn't stay long at Warseer. There's only so many times you can take 'Stop being mean' as a responce when you're trying to help people.

And I wasn't not being nice to him, just blunt. There's a difference. And if I wanted to actually be mean to him... why would I help him?

BYE

Are you trying to keep very Tallarn because Drop troops is not Tallarn.
I think using the army list in Imperial Armour Three- now that keeps them- that has options for wicked Mukalli or whatever they are called. In my tallarn army i have a squadron of 5 Mukalli lol. They do well as well, also i like Basilisks they are great fun.
Open the link below for the Army list (note the army list is a little dark).

thanks for the claification and i apologize i was in a bad mood that day, and i guess the direction im coming from is cost, i.e. if the plasma guns and melts guns were to come with the sprew then i would so use them but they dont and i dont want to spend ANOTHER 6 bucks or whatever to give my squad a better weopen. and in addition i dont like giving my fragile guard a gun that Gets Hot! unless i have a medic, I would so give one to one of my power armored minions but in this case i just dont want that to happen.

interesting dl bartholmew (sorry i butchered it)

I'm not feeling any meanness here, just good advice.

One question about the chimeras though. I'm mostly using army builder and reading the codex, but how do you get two chimeras without the mechanized doctrine? One you get from the iron fist, but how do you get a second? It's an option I like, if I can figure it out.

As for Tallarn flavor, I've been reading the Forge World Imperial Guard Book 3 and I'll probably adjust doctrines accordingly.

The second Chimera is taken as a transport for the Command Squad.

So I'm re-assigning the chimera to the infantry platoon once the game begins? Is that "legal"? You've got yours with the infantry platoon, which I'm assuming is to avoid it being a big shooty target with the command squad. Light infantry doctrine isn't supposed to work with transports, which is why I'm asking.

EDIT: Never mind, I see you've got it with the JO

8acon8oy wrote:thanks for the claification and i apologize i was in a bad mood that day, and i guess the direction im coming from is cost, i.e. if the plasma guns and melts guns were to come with the sprew then i would so use them but they dont and i dont want to spend ANOTHER 6 bucks or whatever to give my squad a better weopen.

Then convert them. Plasma Guns are numerous and cheap. There are many reputable bitz sides on this here intarweb thingy, and it's not hard to have about 8 or so ones sent to you. Then converting the plastic Cadians is easy.

8acon8oy wrote:and in addition i dont like giving my fragile guard a gun that Gets Hot! unless i have a medic

Then you're not thinking like a Guard Commander. Guardsmen are expendable. If 90% casualties are suffered but you still complete your objective, then you still complete your objective.

BYE

okie dokie then I actually have both a plasma gun and a melta gun model and i appreciate them especially against my friend who always takes a land raider even in an 800 point game lol. so back to business... I think that you should take some plasma guns (if you are not cheap like me and use the bitz from the box) I just use the perfered special and heavy weopons as stated in the doctrines section. but the plasma gun and missle launcher does sound pretty deadly!

Not the Missile Launcher! Either the Lascannon or the Autocannon. The AC because they have the same strength and the Lascannon because they have the same AP.

Missile Launchers do nothing a Guard player needs.

BYE

Yeah agree with H.B.M.C. there missile launchers are useless in a highly versitile army list.
Love the Lascannon atm becoz against my own armoured company (which my friend regulary plays) is a sucker to Lascannons. Gulp
Autocannons are anti-infantry mega weapons and are sooooo cool.

geez just going by what the staff said and i personally like the AC more then the missle launcher because the model looks cool. BUUUUUUUUUUUUT!>!>!>!>!> they cant blow up landraiders or battle wagons, the two main tanks i go up against.

If your concern is LRs and BWs, take lascannons. MLs are crap against them, and will be even more crap with the 5th ed damage table.

Really, MLs are just terrible.

I've taken some advice and decided to ignore other advice to keep the force more of what I considered "Tallarn." Grenade launchers stayed, but rocket launchers went. The second chimera was an excellent suggestion. I will add flamers to the army once I have the bitz to do the conversions, but I haven't added them on this list. Any more tweaks or suggestions?

HQ: Command Platoon (6#, 146 Pts)
Command Platoon @ 146 Pts
Command Squad @ [90] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters
1 Junior Officer @ [70] Pts
Iron Discipline; Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Honorifica Imperialis; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
1 Honorifica Imperialis @ [25] Pts
4 Guardsmen @ [0] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x4)
Sentinel Squadron @ [56] Pts
1 Sentinel @ [56] Pts
Searchlight (x1); Lascannon (x1)

Troops: Armoured Fist (11#, 189 Pts)
9 Armoured Fist @ 189 Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x7); Grenade Launcher; Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
1 Chimera @ [86] Pts
Searchlight; Multilaser; Hull Heavy Bolter

Troops: Infantry Platoon (41#, 568 Pts)
Infantry Platoon @ 568 Pts
Command Squad @ [179] Pts
Sharpshooters
1 Junior Officer @ [45] Pts
Iron Discipline; Sharpshooters; Close Combat Weapon; Laspistol
4 Guardsmen @ [124] Pts
Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x2); Grenade Launcher (x1); Lascannon; Chimera
1 Chimera @ [91] Pts
Extra Armour; Searchlight; Multilaser; Hull Heavy Bolter
9 Infantry Squad @ [113] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x7); Grenade Launcher; Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [113] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x7); Grenade Launcher; Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
9 Infantry Squad @ [113] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x7); Grenade Launcher; Lascannon
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW
4 Remnant Squad @ [50] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Lasgun (x4)
1 Sergeant @ [6] Pts
Light Infantry; Sharpshooters; Laspistol & CCW

Fast Attack: Sentinel Squadron (2#, 112 Pts)
Sentinel Squadron @ 112 Pts
2 Sentinel @ [112] Pts
Searchlight (x2); Lascannon (x2)

Fast Attack: Rough Rider Squad (10#, 110 Pts)
9 Rough Rider Squad @ 110 Pts
Close Combat Weapon (x9); Hunting Lance (- LP) (x9)
1 Sergeant @ [11] Pts
Close Combat Weapon; Hunting Lance

Heavy Support: Basilisk (3#, 375 Pts)
1 Basilisk @ 125 Pts
Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Indirect Fire Capability
1 Basilisk @ 125 Pts
Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Indirect Fire Capability
1 Basilisk @ 125 Pts
Earthshaker Cannon; Hull Heavy Bolter; Indirect Fire Capability

Total Roster Cost: 1500

From tegeus-Cromis

If your concern is LRs and BWs, take lascannons. MLs are crap against them, and will be even more crap with the 5th ed damage table.

Really, MLs are just terrible.

What is the new 5ed damage table like?

i wonder if it will make me cry or laugh?

it depends if ur tau and or take a vehice heavy army then you will cry

There is one damage chart. The last two results are Wrecked & Vehicle Explodes. Weapons that get a Glancing Hit have a -2 on the chart, so they cannot get a destroyed result.

Therefore an S8 ML cannot destroy an AV14 target, whereas a Lascannon can.

BYE

With new "line of sight" rules, any thoughts on if mortars will become a useful weapon? I really like the concept, but the game mechanics don't work.

Thank you for explaining the damage chart H.B.M.C.

Well im now have only two Leman russes instead of 10 now, because im working on a Death Korps of Krieg siege regiment.

Any suggestions on the Siege regiment would be nice.

Heavy Mortars w/Infernus Shells.

You'll lose friends, but you'll never lose a game.



BYE

Great, thier cheaper than Thudd Guns (dollars wise). Saves me money at least.