Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I did a search and found one thread partially dealing with this issue. In that thread this issue of models "eye view" and determing LOS/target came up in that thread as well as the orks tier-3 thread(which spawned this thread). So there appears to be some contention related to infantry/walker models being allowed to turn their models to face a target in the shooting phase.

To me the issue is pretty simple.

BRB says...." As you move the models in a unit, they can turn to face in any direction, without affecting the distance they are able to cover. INFANTRY MODELS CAN ALSO BE TURNED TO FACE THEIR TARGETS IN THE SHOOTING PHASE, so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of their movement phase. "

To me this is so clear, I don't understand why anyone can confuse the issue. It states quite clearly to NOT WORRY ABOUT WHICH WAY YOUR MODELS ARE POINTED at the end of the movement phase, and it also states that models can be turned to face their targets in the shooting phase.


There are some who are using this from the BRB

"Line of sight must be traced from the eyes of the firing
model to any part of the body of at least one of the
models in the target unit (for ‘body’ we mean its head,
torso, legs and arms). "

They seem to be implying that a model has to be able to see with their eyes a target, before the said target is officially a target. But they are ignoring the "don't worry about the way they are pointing statement" and also ignoring the "INFANTRY MODELS CAN BE TURNED TO FACE THEIR TARGETS IN THE SHOOTING PHASE"

I don't see these rules as mutually exlusive....I.E. you move your models, not worring abouthow they are facing at the end of your move phase. You then turn them to face a target. You then trace LOS from the eys of the model shooting.

Easy Peasy right?

thoughts?

GG

There is no issue here (Edit for infantry,walkers are vehicles), as answered by your quote.

Certainly for infantry, don't see a problem there. As for walkers? Don't know - I can't see why not, their facings don't matter in your player turn, but then the walker entry lists what a walker does the same as infantry (move up to 6" in the Movement phase and assault up to 6" in the Assault phase). Since it says nothing about the shooting phase, a good argument could be made for RAW saying no.

EDIT: I'm an idiot: "When firing a walker’s weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target"

I am a WYSIWYG Nazi. If a model is not modeled to look like it is moving you cannot move it. If a model is not modeled to look like it is shooting you cannot shoot it. If a model is not modeled to look like it is assaulting it cannot assault. That is why GW always models SM HQ with a pistol in one hand and a power weapon in the other.

oK...What if a model looks like it's doing all three?
this means it has to have legs, right?

just annoying the general populace, ignore me.

I so hope you're joking.

(WARNING OLD FART STORY TIME RUN!)

2nd ed, the direction your mini faced was the direction it could shoot, and your mini could be blocked by other minis. The best ruleset in that regards, but then again a horde army would be like 30 nids

I'm sorry did you just say best anything and 2nd ed in the same paragraph? I'm sorry sir, but as one old fart to another I'm going to have to insist that you slap yourself.

If infantry squads are supposed to be dashing about so much so that you can take wounds on the ones hiding in the back out of LOS, then I think you can assume the shooters can turn their heads or waists to fire.

This being said, I think I would still point my guys more or less at the enemy regardless of whether I RAW need to. Granted sometimes you can be surrounded, but pointing them the total opposite direction on purpose seems a little silly.

Of course this is all a moot point for Commissars. Any guardsman will tell you they've got eyes in the back of their heads...

DoW

DoW, I think that is to prevent the Lazgun blast to the back of the head though.... I am sure that Commissar Cain would suggest something about trust going further than a shot to the back of a retreating soldiers head, or maybe something to the effect of Commissars dying from friendly fire rather than hostile fire.... lol

Old Fart:

Dont forget 2nd edition wonderful "pop up" attack. Ugh I hated Vypers with a passion.

Redwunz wrote:I'm sorry did you just say best anything and 2nd ed in the same paragraph? I'm sorry sir, but as one old fart to another I'm going to have to insist that you slap yourself.

I said "in that regards"
PUNK!!!!

Hey I loved pop up attack, and overwatch. You can still do both in Epic. Lovely.

Posting to hold my place for later, cos I gotta go to work. I will TOTALLY be back in around 9 hours to turn this into an actual debate, rather than a 'let's agree with the OP fest'

Before I do so, though, let's please have someone quote the Walker rules. Better yet, check out this thread, in which I already presented the argument.

http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=41199

@ Elessar: I see what you're saying - I interpreted the OP's original question as CAN walkers and infantry turn in the shooting phase, which is pretty clearly, yes, they can. You're asking if they can turn to fire at a unit that they can't see;

BRB pg 72 wrote:When firing a walker’s weapons, pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target (assume that all weapons mounted on a walker can swivel 45 degrees, like hull-mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point of the weapon and along its barrel, as normal for vehicles.

(Full disclaimer dept: I haven't read the whole linked thread, so apologies if I'm repeating points)

But the problem really lies in what the 'arcs of sight' for a walker is, am I right? Can a dreadnought pivot in the shooting phase at a model it is not 'aware' of?

So my thinking is:

You need to pivot to face the target - however BRB pg 16 says "In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have line of sight to at least one model in the target unit."

According to BRB pg. 11 "Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the Shooting phase" BRB pg. 72 says "Walkers move in exactly the same way as infantry" which means that for walkers, they obey all the rules for movement in their section as well as any rules listed for infantry in the movement section of the BRB.

BUT for a model to be a valid target you must be able to have LOS to it, as I pointed out above. Now, Dreadnoughts determine LOS like vehicles, through their weapons, with their weapons having a forward 45 degree arc. (Though it could be argued that it has a rear arc as well, since their mounting, if left unglued, allows it 360 degrees of vertical travel )

So, it's almost a Chicken-and-Egg scenario. They can (and indeed walkers MUST) turn to fire at their target, but a unit cannot be selected as a target unless you can draw LOS to it (i.e. within the 45 degree arc of any of the Dreadnought's weapons) when you come to shoot with that unit. If you choose a unit as a target, but cannot draw LOS to it, it cannot be your target (If no models have line of sight then a different target must be chosen). Because you can only 'turn to face(your) target," and 'target' is defined in the shooting phase chapter as something that you must be able to draw LOS to, if follows that you can only turn to face a unit that you can draw LOS to.

So, a strict RAW reading seems to be, you turn to face the unit you're firing at, based on whether you can see it at the start of the shooting phase. Seems pretty clear-cut to me. However, I believe the RAI to be that you turn in whichever direction you wish, as supported by the extra text about a dreadnought's agility: "This pivoting in the Shooting phase does not count as moving and represents the vastly superior agility of walkers in comparison with other vehicles," as well as the text about "don’t worry about which way they are pointing" in the movement phase rules. I would allow people to play it this way, but RAI is not RAW.

Now, as for the specific CSM rules you mention in your linked thread, you'd need to quote them specifically as I don't have a CSM 'dex. Though 'shoot at the nearest unit' that I saw mentioned in the other thread seems to indicate a special overriding of the 'target' rules, as it says 'nearest', not 'nearest they can see' or "at the nearest target' but I'll withhold any comments until someone can quote the exact rule in question. (EDIT: See below for specific discussions on the CSM rules)

Have I missed anything?

EDIT: Many times for clarity.

Actually for the Chaos Dreadnought, for fire frenzy it says to "must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit."

According to 5th ed LoS rules, then a dread will only fire frenzy against a target in it's front 45 degree arc. However, in my attempts to use my dreadnought in a way consistent with the rules, it has started at least one rules argument and several other players have had that attitude where you can tell that they're just going along with me to prevent an argument... so I don't do it any more.

I want to keep well clear of this (GW should FAQ it) ... but heres the rule for fire frenzy

D6 roll of 1 Fire Frenzy
The chaos dreadnought may not move or assault this turn. At the beginning of the shooting phase it must pivot on the spot towards the closest visible unit (friend or foe) and fire all its weapons against it - twice! If the chaos Dreadnought cannot fire any ranged weapons, treat this result as a 2-5 sane result instead.

I was just responding to unistoo's incorrect assertation that fire frenzy ignores line of sight rules.

I'm not sure why there's an argument then - "closest visible unit" means "closest unit you can see" which, for vehicles, means "closest unit within arc-of-sight" (as there is no other definition of 'visible' in the rules that I am aware of). So, at the start of the shooting phase, you check all the units that lie within the Dreadnought's arcs-of-sight and fire at the closest one.

Am I missing anywhere that says X models can see Y degrees around them? - because a quick check of the 5th ed rulebook hasn't turned it up. It appears to have been ditched in favour of the TLOS rules of looking from the eye of infantry or weapons of vehicles.

Nope. I've had a tourney judge quote 4th ed rules at me though (front 180 LoS for walkers). I did not argue his ruling, but encouraged him to look for that rule anywhere in the rulebook, because it's simply not there.

Yes, those line of sight rules seem to hang on - but they just don't seem to exist in 5th, it does lessen the impact of the Fire Frenzy rule dramatically though (almost quarters it in fact ), which is why (as Tri said) it really should be in the FAQ.

unistoo wrote:Yes, those line of sight rules seem to hang on - but they just don't seem to exist in 5th, it does lessen the impact of the Fire Frenzy rule dramatically though (almost quarters it in fact ), which is why (as Tri said) it really should be in the FAQ.

doesn't lessen the impact. It drastically improves it in chaos's favour. A dread that would turn round and shoot its masters will now murder the enemy in front of them (unless a units been stupid enough to run out in front). It make taking 3 dreads missile and plasma cannons a real option. As they charge forward they only occasionally pause to fire twice and occasionally not shoot so they can charge forwards.

To me the point of turning the dreadnought to face the target it wants to fire at is because of its armor facings. A Dreadnought can pivot anyway it wants in the shooting phase, but must ensure that whatever target it shoots at is within the 45 degree arc. This just prevents a dread from shooting target behind it without having to expose its rear armor to other enemy units.

@Tri: Of course - what I meant to imply was "reduces the negative impact" and yes, it does make CSM dreads far more useful in this edition, but that's the result of mixing editions. As you say, it needs to be FAQ'd one way or the other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arschbombe wrote:To me the point of turning the dreadnought to face the target it wants to fire at is because of its armor facings. A Dreadnought can pivot anyway it wants in the shooting phase, but must ensure that whatever target it shoots at is within the 45 degree arc. This just prevents a dread from shooting target behind it without having to expose its rear armor to other enemy units.

Yep, but that's RAI, not RAW, as far as I can see it. And the facings are still important - since you MUST turn to point at whatever you're shooting at, you have to be careful not to choose a target that could expose your vulnerable armour.

Agreed plus this is relevant if the vehicle gets hit in turn and takes an immobilized hit.

Frazzled wrote:Agreed plus this is relevant if the vehicle gets hit in turn and takes an immobilized hit.

... Ha can imagine it now. Eldar play casts eldrad storm to spin the dread round to shoot its rear armour, then immobilize it ... chaos play then rolls fire frenzy every single turn there after

unistoo wrote:I'm not sure why there's an argument then - "closest visible unit" means "closest unit you can see" which, for vehicles, means "closest unit within arc-of-sight" (as there is no other definition of 'visible' in the rules that I am aware of). So, at the start of the shooting phase, you check all the units that lie within the Dreadnought's arcs-of-sight and fire at the closest one.

The argument comes from the rule mentioned at the start of the thread. You're allowed to pivot to face your target in the shooting phase.

Am I missing anywhere that says X models can see Y degrees around them?

No, but they don't need to, because they can turn to face the target.

There is only one definition of vision in the BRB - page 16.

Only one section of the BRB tells us how to determine a target - page 16.

Only one page tells us how to determine LOS for infantry - page 16

The most important line on the page, in my view, is "If no models have Line Of Sight then a different target must be chosen."

The ONLY way around this is to consider the phrase "so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of their movement phase." to grant a specific exception to Infantry. HOWEVER, even if this is the case, VEHICLES are not exempt, and Walkers shoot as vehicles.

Elessar wrote:The ONLY way around this is to consider the phrase "so don't worry about which way they are pointing at the end of their movement phase." to grant a specific exception to Infantry. HOWEVER, even if this is the case, VEHICLES are not exempt, and Walkers shoot as vehicles.

...except that they have a rule allowing them to pivot to face their target in the Shooting phase. It even specifically mentions that this is a deliberate advantage for Walkers, to represent their greater mobility compared to other vehicles.

Yes, to face the TARGET. Which is determined, through checking LOS.

I'm not trying to be condescending, but this is how it works:

Pick a unit to shoot (a Dreadnought)
Pick a target (in this case, a Wave Serpent)
Check LOS, is target correct yes/no
If yes, pivot to allow both weapons LOS/change facing of Walker
If no, select new target

See examples below.


Example 1, target is valid, so it pivots to the exact same place, essentially not at all.
Example 2, target is invalid, no valid targets exist, so Dreadnought cannot fire.
Example 3, target is valid (if I drew it right), but only from the Left Arm, so it pivots to bring the MM on the Right Arm to bear.

I hope that explains.

Elessar wrote:Check LOS, is target correct yes/no
If yes, pivot to allow both weapons LOS/change facing of Walker

Sorry, but this is the exact opposite of what the Walker rules actually say.

What they say is that you "...pivot the walker on the spot so that its guns are aimed at the target (assume that all weapons have mounted on a walker can swivel 45 degree, like hull mounted weapons) and then measure the range from the weapon itself and line of sight from the mounting point..."

Page 72, Walkers Shooting, third paragraph. Emphasis mine.

So, the actual process is:
- Pick a unit to shoot
- Pivot the walker to face the chosen unit
- check range and LOS.

You're missing the point, I fear. They pivot towards the what now?

The target.

Which is determined by...

Please, tell me you understand what I'm saying here.