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Hi All

First off thank you everyone who has read or commented on my other threads. For those of you who haven't I've attached links so you don't miss any thing.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/277238.page#1308677

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276865.page

Ok if you've seen the previous threads you'll know the list I currently run and the list my opponent used last time. I went down to my friendly local gaming store the other day and one of the guys helped me come up with the following list, based on what I am currenlty using.

HQ
CCS - 50
LasC - 20
Camo cloaks - 20

Troops
Vets - 70
3x Flamers -15
Chimera - 55 - hvy flamer on turret
hvy stubber - 10

Vets - 70
AC - 10
3 xGL - 15
Forward Sentries - 30

Fast Attack
Hellhound - 130
smoke - 5

The idea is that you leap frog the Chimera and hell hound across the table using smoke and each other as cover to dump a load of flames on the Lootas in my opponents army. I was little worried that this list is short on bodies, which alot of you suggested was the problem with my first list.

So I came up with the following alternative all infantry list.

HQ

CCS - 50
mortar - 5
Standard - 15

Troops 1
PCS - 30
Missile - 15

Infantry squad x3 - 150
flamer x3 - 15

Troop 2 & 3
Vets x 2- 140
AC - 20
Gl x 6 - 30

Elites
Ratlings x3 - 30

Ok before you all start saying why mortar and a missile launchers, let me explain. The mortar is so my command squad can hide, dish out orders and potentially pin the lootas. Ratlings are to either pin the lootas and then maybe piss his boss off. The missile launcher, I know it is a jack of all trades, but i was planning to just use it for frag to compensate for the PCS BS3 and again go for his lootas with it. The two AC vets are to pepper his boys at distance. Finally the Infantry squads are there to be on the flanks so if his Kommandos flank me again they are the ones who get tin the way rather than anything important. The third inf squad will be in the middle waiting to react to the out flank.

OK all i'm off on holiday now, please feel free to rip apart my lists till i get back. Seriously go nuts.

Thanks again

SpankHammer III wrote:HQ
CCS - 50
LasC - 20
Camo cloaks - 20

Absolutely do not need camo cloaks in a 500pt game. Too expensive even in larger games, and there are simply too many other things you could spend 20pts on. The squad isn't really that valuable for to need to drop 20pts on a small defensive buff. Just get yourself some good 4+ or 3+ cover, and go to ground... or if things get really tough, order yourself I! and get that +2 cover save. I mean, 4+ cover is easy enough to get... and with orders/going to ground... you can get it down to 2+. With camo, I would be almost afraid that I would be wasting it... since you can't get better than 2+ saves. Las is fine, makes use of the CCS's BS4 pretty good. Issue is one lascannon shot isn't going to stop a Battlewagon. You have a 2/3 chance of hitting, then a 1/3 chance of destroying or immobilizing it. So assuming he doesn't have any saves, you have a 22% chance of actually stopping the Battlewagon. Not saying you shouldn't have the las, but don't expect it to work very often. In 500pt games, I would probably be more interested in having a fast unit of some sort that can flank and shoot for side/back armor. Vendetta, sentinels etc. For example, scouts sentinels with ACs can tear apart side or rear armor on a battlewagon, and then can go and shoot at infantry pretty effectively as well. Just something to consider. Another way to handle it is to have a mobile list that can stay away from the wagon, and get it caught up on terrain, or force it to deploy its orky payload outside of assaulting range so you have time to lay a template on them. Wagons themselves aren't particularly scary... it is just you can't let them reach your lines or you will lose a lot of men.

SpankHammer III wrote:Troops
Vets - 70
3x Flamers -15
Chimera - 55 - hvy flamer on turret
hvy stubber - 10

You already have a hellhound, do you really need a psudo-hound? Change the special weapon to something more useful, grenade launchers work well against orks... unless they take mega nobs, and krak grenade will AP4 and take care of anything they can throw at you. Chimera is fine, adds mobility. Stubber is fine. Drop the heavy flamer. A chimera is not a hellhound... which means you have to be in 9" of your opponent. In this case, orks... which means they will basically take a half dozen casualties... then assault... and that Power Klaw will slice open that chimera easy.

SpankHammer III wrote:Vets - 70
AC - 10
3 xGL - 15
Forward Sentries - 30

Cover is ok, but not against orks. Orks won't give a second thought to it. They are going to chew you up in melee... cover means nothing. Also you can do so much more with 30pts.

SpankHammer III wrote:Fast Attack
Hellhound - 130
smoke - 5

Hellhound is fast, which means you can move 12" and shoot. You should never be out of range, (and remember assault range is 12" usually... so if you are any close to your enemy than that... you are doing it wrong). If you pop smoke, you are wasting a shooting phase. I would say, drop the smoke. Orks are not a shooty army... and don't give a damn about your cover. However moving 12+" will make you hard to hit in melee, which does matter. Stick to moving really fast, and the orks will have a harder time of it. Take a Dozer Blade so you can drive over cover. That will give you more freedom to protect your infantry, and stay at range from the orks. As for lootas, your best bet would be to break LoS. Cover is only 4+ saves... and lootas have a lot of shots. I doubt you will avoid them all, smoke or not. The list as a whole seems fairly mobile... I would recommend simply trying to stay out of range of the lootas. They are heavy, so if you can force him to have to reposition them... you can try to get into range then. Honestly, artillery would answer Lootas better than a hound. If you know he's gonna keep building lists with lootas as the backbone, I would suggest a Russ.

SpankHammer III wrote:CCS - 50
mortar - 5
Standard - 15

Mortars are ok against orks, as most of them have Sv6+. Unfortunately, most orks have mob rules... so any squad of 11 or more is fearless. Against the lootas it should work ok. Standard is good for a infantry heavy list. Definately a cool solution to the lootas. Set up is going to be key. However, I will warn that a single mortar might be a tad light for this plan. Since you have a PCS might I recommend you grab a Heavy Weapon Squad with mortars.

SpankHammer III wrote:Troops 1
PCS - 30
Missile - 15

BS missle laucher couldn't be more of a waste of points. You miss half the time, only get one shot... and autocannons will do more damage... as does lascannons. Basically a ML is a ton of points for a bunch of crap. If you want it for the small blast... the ML small blast is the exact same as the Mortar's, except a mortar doesn't need LoS and it pins etc. Find something else. Never take MLs.

SpankHammer III wrote:Infantry squad x3 - 150
flamer x3 - 15

Fine. This is what I usually do with my infantry squads. (Maybe instead of a heavy weapons team with mortars, maybe just put 3 mortars in these squads and use those. Possibly blob the squads, and you will be able to give them FOMT! for denying the lootas cover.)

SpankHammer III wrote:Troop 2 & 3
Vets x 2- 140
AC - 20
Gl x 6 - 30

Probably going to do wicked damage to the orks with these guys.

SpankHammer III wrote:Elites
Ratlings x3 - 30

The Ratlings are crap unless you have a squad of 5, no more, no less. But the issue here is... unlike the mortars... snipers don't get a lot of kills. They are used almost exclusively for pinning. Orks are (almost always) fearless, so you are gak out of luck there.

Ok i'm back

i'm pretty sure that i'm not going to go with the mobile army, but i'll try and to respond to yours points and explain myself a little.

Absolutely do not need camo cloaks in a 500pt game.

Ok I know where you are coming from with this one. 20 points is a lot for IG and orks for the most part can't shoot worth a damn so whats the point. The games I have used these in they have worked really well, forward sentries more so. I agree 4+ cover is common enough, on our board it is all we have. We don't have a lot of terrain yet so staying out of LoS is tough. Not a big fan of using going to ground, don't get me wrong I see that it has it uses but losing the ability to do pretty much anything sucks.

Sorry the LasC was not meant to be included, must have copied it from an old list. Fairly confident my opponent won't be bringing anything that warrents it.

You already have a hellhound, do you really need a psudo-hound? Change the special weapon to something more useful, grenade launchers work't be bringing battle wagons though.

I agree with you to be honest, this entire mobile list was the result of the guy in the flgs sitting down with me a telling me what to take. My grenade vets have always worked better than my flamer vets but I allowed his to convince me that if I could get the chimera in close to the lootas i could flame them with the chimera and drop the vets off to finish them off. The psudo hound was sort of back I think encase the real hound didn't make it

Cover is ok, but not against orks. Orks won't give a second thought to it. They are going to chew you up in melee... cover means nothing.

Defensive mines saved my AC squad last time played. Admittedly I still lost and they were the only thing standing but hey. The cloaks did help against the lootas though. Your righ though I think I will be dropping them like you said 30 points is a lot.

Honestly, artillery would answer Lootas better than a hound. If you know he's gonna keep building lists with lootas as the backbone, I would suggest a Russ.

your right, I actually went t games worskshop fully intending to buy a Russ. had my hands on the box and everything. It suddenly struck me, that the easy way out probably get one though if i lose again

Ok the second list. This is the one that i'm most likely going to use.

The Mortar is there to deal with Loota's and that's it. He is only running with 8 at the moment so fearless isn't a problem, at the moment, but I see what your saying it might be worth getting more in case he ups the number of Loota's. However that is why I included the ratlings. I had 30 points left and though the sniper rifles would increase my chances on pinning. Also he has been running his boss as an independent character (not sure why) so thought the ratling might be able to pin him.

Wasn't sure about the missile launcher, probably don't need it. Could stick a mortar in here as well.

Hadn't planned on blobbing my squads, wanted speed bumps not tar pits also keeping them small would minimise the loota damage.

Might be a silly question, but what is so bad about ratlings in groups of less that 5?

At my girl friends till saturday and didn't bring my codex, but I will do some number crunching at get a revised list up as soon as possible.

Ok I've amended the second list (dropped the first altogether), not a lot of differnce really. Dropped the ML in favor of another mortar. That gave me 10 left so I stuck in another ratling.

HQ
CCS - 50
mortar - 5
Standard - 15

Troops 1
PCS - 30
mortar - 5

Infantry squad x3 - 150
flamer x3 - 15

Troop 2 & 3
Vets x 2- 140
AC - 20
Gl x 6 - 30

Elites
Ratlings x4 - 40

This list gives me quite a lot of bodies, I know I haven't got five ratlings but I don't have the points. Unless I drop two GL's one from each of AC vets. Opinions is a fifth Ratling worth the loss of two GL's? should I stick with 4 or should I drop all the ratlings and spend the 40 points on the other units?

How about
HQ

CCS - 50
Standard - 15
3 x GL - 15

Troops 1
PCS - 30
mortar - 5

Infantry squad x3 - 150
Mortar x 3 - 15
flamer x3 - 15

Troop 2 & 3
Vets x 2- 140
AC - 20
Gl x 6 - 30

that leaves me 15 points spare.

SpankHammer III wrote:HQ
CCS - 50
mortar - 5
Standard - 15

Troops 1
PCS - 30
mortar - 5

Infantry squad x3 - 150
flamer x3 - 15

Troop 2 & 3
Vets x 2- 140
AC - 20
Gl x 6 - 30

Elites
Ratlings x4 - 40

I would drop the ratlings, and spend it on the infantry blob to get some more gun in, 3 autocannons would probably be a nice addition. 10 more points for stuff, somewhere. I usually use a 30 man platoon to cover the other squads. As one squad gets hit in CC, the next gets in position for the flamer, when the combat breaks. (Or runs if the combat is going to break in my turn.) And while the enemy struggles through your infantry, 1 turn at a time. You keep shooting with the rest. Be careful for multiple assaults.

SpankHammer III wrote:HQ

CCS - 50
Standard - 15
3 x GL - 15

Troops 1
PCS - 30
mortar - 5

Infantry squad x3 - 150
Mortar x 3 - 15
flamer x3 - 15

Troop 2 & 3
Vets x 2- 140
AC - 20
Gl x 6 - 30

Not sure I like so many mortars. 15pts should be a heavy weapon in the CCS.

yeah get your point 4 mortars is a lot, but I really want to make sure those Loota's are pinned.

I suppose I could stick an AC in the CCS, although this does go against my original idea of hiding him, then use them and the two Vets to pop the loota's. How about Hvy bolters in the infantry squads? will give them an extra shot over the autocannon and still wound on 3+ against normal boyz. Although I suppose they get an extra 12" range with the AC's which will mean they can probably get an extra round of shooting in and wound on 2+.

HQ

CCS - 50
Standard - 15
AC - 10
GL - 5

Troops 1
PCS - 30
mortar - 5

Infantry squad x3 - 150
AC x 3 - 30
flamer x3 - 15

Troop 2 & 3
Vets x 2- 140
AC - 20
Gl x 6 - 30

Thats 6 AC's, 1 Mortar, 7 GL's and 3x Flamers

A better compromise might be this, it allows my CCS to hide and protect those orders.

HQ

CCS - 50
Standard - 15
mortar - 5
GL - 5

Troops 1
PCS - 30
mortar - 5
GL x 2 - 10

Infantry squad x3 - 150
AC x 2 - 20
Mortar x 1 - 5
flamer x3 - 15

Troop 2 & 3
Vets x 2- 140
AC - 20
Gl x 6 - 30

Thats 3 mortars, 4 AC's, 9 GL's and 3 Flamers

This leaves me with 5 points, I could give the officers bolt guns/pistols

Second GL in the CCS is 5pts...

Here is a question. If your theme is like old world war type army, why don't you take a Valkyrie. That would handle those lootas no problem, probably on turn 1. It is a fantastic model, and is basically just a giant air transport for air dropping troops in. Valkyries are simply one of those models that will turn your list into an unstoppable force. Straight infantry lists are just tough to make competitive.

To be honest of you the main reason I don't have a valk is that it doesn't fit with my idea of the Imperial Guard. I'm not a big fan of air craft and I always think of the IG as a never ending wave of men and tanks.

I'll probably cave and end up getting one at some point just because every one says they are so awesome, but for now I will stick with what i've got. Probably get a Lehman Russ before a valk though.

IG are wave after wave of infantry and tanks. But if you read any of the fluff it is never the infantry that do anything awesome. The infantry are simply there, dying, or getting into prolonged gun fights. The people that make the IG work, are the tank squads, and elites, like hardened vets or Kasrkins. Unfortunately Kasrkins are slightly less viable by game rules, but the vets are not.

An IG army, works best with a strong gunline. It takes the brunt of the enemy. It pours out the firepower. But if that is all you have, you will lose. If you really want to stick to your gunline, that is fine... but it won't be as competitive as you want it to be. And don't confuse what the IG really is. They are millions of billions of men and women, fighting for the Emperor, and to protect the Imperium. There are Thousands of worlds, with Hundreds of Thousands of Commanders, each with their own beliefs and styles. For example the Steel Legion would look at you and scoff at what you are bringing. They prefer tanks and armor above all else. Not even Catachans bring straight infantry armies. They take sentinels, hellhounds, and chimera, and often roll russ in after a path has been cleared.

You can play your list anyway you want. But I always feel like a game is less fun if my list has no chance of being able to bring the Fury of the Emperor

My .02$

This list isn't really meant to be that competive, well not in a general sense. I do need tanks especially as I intend to start going to gaming groups and will be getting them at some point (probably sooner than later) but this army is designed to take on a specific threat being my mate's orks.

Yeah I could get a Lehman russ or valk and kick seven shades out of him but that feels a little easy/unfair. He has a limited income and limited models so bringing Armor 14 pain to a 500 point game would probably be a little one sided. I'm all for bringing the emperors justice down on Xeno scum but want to keep it fun for all parties involved.

I get what you are saying, as always really appreciate your input, especially as you just trying to help me make a better list and you have been so instrumental in the design of all my lists and helped me better understand the do's and don't of the IG, which as a new player is invaluable. I will definatley be seeking you out when I try and write a good all comers list, which knowing me will be next payday . Sorry don't mean to gush. Just don't want to to think that i'm ungrateful and ignoring your advice.

Don't worry though if he wins again I'm getting a Russ i'm a good sport but only up to a point

Well if you want the Ork player to be able to keep up with your "unstoppable" IG list... have him talk to my roommate.

There are certain things in the IG army that can answer certain things in the Ork army... and vice versa. For example, he brings and ork mob, you bring a hellhound, he brings deffkoptas, you bring hydras...

It goes on. Basically, if you want a wicked powerful list. Build it. Make it competitive, make it viable for when you fight non ork players. Don't hold any punches. Orks have some pretty wicked powerful options too. Anything that I have ever brought against my roommate, he has found a counter for. Once both of you have the means to counter each other... no matter what. It just depends on trying to figure out what they are going to bring this time... and your ability to command.

Keeps the game changing each time if you have more options to counter all the options your opponent has. Especially if you are stuck playing the same guy all the time.

You make a valid point and I would like to make a competive balanced list.

I've already got a Basilisk, a hellhound, 2x scout sentinels and 2x Amored sentinels. I've tried to work some of them in but at 500 points I'm finding really difficult to try and cover myself against everything and adding vehicle means i'm fielding less men.

However I never said this list was "unstoppable" it would get pwned against MEQs, termies and heavy armor, but its orks and 500 points.

I ran in to my opponent last night asked him if he wanted a game, he said "no I want to buy some trucks or stuff first".

My current list can handle trucks but "stuff" i'm not sure. I'm not uber familiar with ork codex but the current list I have should handle most stuff right? Boyz, hard boyz and trucks are in the bag.

I know battle wagons and mega nobz would definatley be a problem but I don't think they are that likely in a 500 point game. Not sure how well it would do against deff copters and bikes. Also I can't remember the stat line on Cans.


Any suggestions?

Pick out the weaknesses of Orks as a whole. Sv6+ is the normal save, Sv4+ is about as high as they can go without having to take 40pt meganobs. They generally employ hordes, and light vehicles. The exception to this is the Battlewagon, but... the wagon has low side and back armor... so where you could take bigger guns to try and crack its Av14, you could take flankers and go for Av12 or Av10.

Autocannons are perfect for 90% of what orks bring. Although they can't handle hordes as well. So you need flamers, or tanks to handle the rest. Hellhounds are perfect. But you need to stay more than 12" away, or they can assault you and blow up your tank. Valkyries with MRP are also perfect, and they can move a max of 24" and can transport units. Anything with a large blast usually works really well. Issue is, if orks reach your vehicles they will powerklaw them.

At 500pts, probably expect a pair of trucks with some boys inside. ACs will pop the trucks, and then you just rip the boys apart with a hellhound or valk. Other option is also a single battlewagon, in which case you need to hit it's side or back armor. valk with a lascannon, or even just with its ML is good for flanking and getting at back armor.

I've been trying to come up with an all comers list, damn its hard at 500 points.

I came up with this

CCS
LasC
Vox
Standard = 90

Vets
3x GL
1 x AC = 95

Vets
3x GL
1x AC = 95

Marbo = 65

Arm Sent
Plasma C = 75

Arm Sent
Plasma C = 75

that 495, what do you think?

horde - GL's, Demo charge, Plasma C to a lesser extent AC
2+ Sv & MEQ - Plasma C, Las C, Demo charge
armor 10 + 12 - Auto C, plasma, Las C and GL's
Armor 14 - Lac C -with Vox to issue order to self with re rolls