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This started in another thread and since it wasn't what that thread was about, I decided to move it. Original Thread.

The question is can star engines be used to ram or tank shock?

I'm gunna lay out some arguments for each side.

Anti-ramming/tank shocking
Tank shocking and ramming occurs in the movement phase. (I've seen no other argument that has any sort of validity)

Pro-ramming/tank shocking (and also my stance, so obviously I have better thought out the argument for this)

Nothing anywhere that I can find states that ramming and tank shocking occurs in the movement phase. Similarly, there is nothing that I can find that prohibits tank shocking or ramming from occuring in any other phase.

Here's some rules quotes. I've including the counter to the "can't do it cuz you can't shoot and ram" argument (the second argument I've seen for anti-ramming).

AoBR Rulebook: pg. 69
Ramming is a rather desperate manoeuvre and means that the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle. This means that it may not shoot in that turn’s Shooting phase, making it an attractive choice for vehicles that have no armament left, or are shaken. Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of.

Eldar FAQ:
The Star Engines description says the vehicle may move an extra 12" ‘in lieu of shooting’. Does this mean that they cannot make this extra move if they are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being shaken). Also, when is this move executed – in the Movement or the Shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines. This means that it can use them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting phase.

AoBR Rulebook: pg. 69
Speed. Each full 3" moved that turn by the rammer before impact: +1

Other questions
If in fact you can ram with star engines then I have some further questions:

1. In the ramming entry it states that you must move your maximum distance (obviously this distance may be shorter if the rammed vehicle is closer that max movement). If this is the case, does an eldar vehicle using star engines have to move 24" and then move the full 12" of the star engines move (i.e. flat out)? Or can the vehicle move 12" and then move the full 12" of the star engines (since that is "full movement" of that specific move) and by doing so not risk the destruction of the squad inside the skimmer if the skimmer wrecks/explodes? Is the combined movement of the star engines and a normal move that is greater than 12" considered flat out (and thus removing the need for the previous question)? I know there's been arguments of "movement speed = total distance moved vs. movement speed = distance moved in movement phase. I just can't find the entry in my rule book (I have the AoBR handy and not the BGB). If someone could point me to the page where it talks about distances and flat-out moves that'd be great.

2. If ramming is not phase dependent, can a vehicle with star engines ram twice since it has two seperate moves?

If your argument is "can only ram in the movement phase" then please state the rule and the page number. Without it your argument will not be taken seriously by me.

PG 68 of the LRB; "WHen moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally".

Since ramming is a type of tank shock, it must abide by the same rules with only a different outcome due to the difference in intended target.

Emphasis mine.

Kevin949 wrote:PG 68 of the LRB; "WHen moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally".

Since ramming is a type of tank shock, it must abide by the same rules with only a different outcome due to the difference in intended target.

Emphasis mine.

This is a good point, however this brings up the whole "what is normal movement" debate that's plagued so many GK scout/shunt moves debates. This still doesn't clearify that it has to happen in the movement phase. It only raises further questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, here's the exact quote from star engines:

It may move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not embark or disembark that turn.

With the word additional it can be argued that this movement is added to the movement that took place in the movement phase, making it the same movement, thus making it the same "type" of movement, which you're argument suggests is a "normal move." With this wording it can be argued that this "additional" movement that is added to a "normal move" must also be "normal movement" if it is "additional."

So, if I could line it up. I could move a full 36" using the star engines and ramming an enemy vehicle for 2 + 12 + 1 for a total of 14 starting damage.

Combined with the holofield trickery on a falcon = goodbye Landraiders or whatever them big space marine vehicles are called.

Neat, will have to try this.

Except that ramming strength can't go above S10 if I remember my faqs correctly.

Sothas wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:PG 68 of the LRB; "WHen moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally".

Since ramming is a type of tank shock, it must abide by the same rules with only a different outcome due to the difference in intended target.

Emphasis mine.

This is a good point, however this brings up the whole "what is normal movement" debate that's plagued so many GK scout/shunt moves debates. This still doesn't clearify that it has to happen in the movement phase. It only raises further questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, here's the exact quote from star engines:

It may move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not embark or disembark that turn.

With the word additional it can be argued that this movement is added to the movement that took place in the movement phase, making it the same movement, thus making it the same "type" of movement, which you're argument suggests is a "normal move." With this wording it can be argued that this "additional" movement that is added to a "normal move" must also be "normal movement" if it is "additional."

Well...the FAQ you posted says that star engines are used in the shooting phase and if you can't embark or disembark after using star engines that would lend more credence to happening in the shooting phase and since you resolve tank shocks and rams in the movement phase (remembering that you have to follow the rules for ALL vehicles when ramming and not every vehicle can move in the shooting phase) since that is the only phase that EVERY vehicle can move in, one would be lead to understand that it happens in the movement phase and star engines are engaged AFTER movement.

Normal movement (or just the term "normal" in general) would refer to what everything in the same class would be able to do. Like, all infantry can run. All jetbikes can turbo boost. These are "normal" for those classes of units.

Some key phrases:

"When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally"

This would seem to indicate that you can declare a tank shock any time that you are moving the tank. Star Engines move the tank, so you could declare a tank shock when using them. The 12" move is "moving normally" - moving the tank out of the way after dodging a non-skimmer's tank shock, for example, would not be "moving normally". This has been discussed ad nauseum in the 'Scout Shunt Move' thread; I'm not going to go into further detail - go look it up there if you want.

"Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of"

This means that you could move at combat speed, then use Star Engines to tank shock. You're declaring the ram using the Star Engines' movement, which have a maximum speed of 12".

"...troops may not embark or disembark that turn."

So if troops are forced to disembark due to a wrecked or explodes result, they are destroyed (because they cannot disembark). This is even if the vehicle isn't moving Flat Out.

"Speed. Each full 3" moved that turn by the rammer before impact: +1"

This would indicate that any movement at all during that turn is counted for the purposes of the speed. So, moving 12" in the movement phase and 9" with Star Engines (to ram) would give 21" -> +7

--

It looks like there are two advantages to being able to use Star Engines to tank shock:

1) More distance, potentially (up to 36".
2) After moving, the tank can rotate, then use Star Engines to ram - so the tank can change directions in order to initiate a tank shock. You'd measure the final distance from start of turn to rammed vehicle for the purposes of determining speed, thanks to the "each full 3 inches" thing mentioned above.

--

I don't really like the wording on Star Engines, to be honest. I'd really prefer that they said "Vehicle may move up to an additional 12" when moving Flat Out". That'd make things so much easier.

@xarian.
Except if it was "only while moving flat out" then that wouldn't help with the ramming situation. Also you wouldn't be able to move a shorter distance with the engines. Also, while looking through movement, if you move 12, then move 12 again with star engines you're moving flat out as it is over 12 inch move.

@everyone else.
Again, there's nothing deffinitly saying you have to ram durring the movement phase. It's all assumptions.

Sothas wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:PG 68 of the LRB; "WHen moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally".

Since ramming is a type of tank shock, it must abide by the same rules with only a different outcome due to the difference in intended target.

Emphasis mine.

This is a good point, however this brings up the whole "what is normal movement" debate that's plagued so many GK scout/shunt moves debates. This still doesn't clearify that it has to happen in the movement phase. It only raises further questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, here's the exact quote from star engines:

It may move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not embark or disembark that turn.

With the word additional it can be argued that this movement is added to the movement that took place in the movement phase, making it the same movement, thus making it the same "type" of movement, which you're argument suggests is a "normal move." With this wording it can be argued that this "additional" movement that is added to a "normal move" must also be "normal movement" if it is "additional."

I still stand by the fact that while there certainly is no stock definition of what 'normal' movement is or isn't, movement granted by Star Engines is one of the most specialized movements in the game (allowing the vehicle to move in the shooting phase which can't be done by any other vehicle normally). So if Star Engine movement isn't abnormal movement, what exactly would be?

And to say that since Star Engine movement is additional means that it too must also be 'normal' movement is completely twisted logic. Star Engine movement is in addition to the movement can normally make. A normal Happy meal comes with a drink (for example), but if you are allowed to purchase additional fries for X amount of money, that doesn't mean the fries are part of the 'normal' Happy Meal.


You are certainly correct that the rules are unclear on this matter, if you try to shoehorn this interpretation into place you come into real trouble with the basic 'Tank Shock' rules (which by your interpretation the vehicle could also do with Star Engines in the shooting phase). With a Tank Shock move you have to declare how far you are going to move and you have to move 'at least combat speed'. How the heck does that work in the shooting phase? Does a vehicle making a Star Engines move still count as moving a 'speed' at all? If so, why is it allowed to move more than the 24" maximum prescribed by its unit type?'

So if you're going to try to claim that Star Engine movement is simply additional 'normal' movement then you would still have to abide by the maximum speed allowed for the vehicle to move (24").

I say that the additional movement gained from the Star Engine is no more considered part of the movement (made in the Movement Phase), than any Run or Assault moves are.

While B might indeed follow A, B does not have to be caused by A or be part of it.

yakface wrote:
I still stand by the fact that while there certainly is no stock definition of what 'normal' movement is or isn't, movement granted by Star Engines is one of the most specialized movements in the game (allowing the vehicle to move in the shooting phase which can't be done by any other vehicle normally). So if Star Engine movement isn't abnormal movement, what exactly would be?

I've always thought of abnormal movement in two ways (neither of which may be correct )
1. Any distance that must be rolled.
2. Any movement that is not voluntary (Like lash of submition)
However, again this isn't actually defined, just my thoughts.

yakface wrote:
And to say that since Star Engine movement is additional means that it too must also be 'normal' movement is completely twisted logic. Star Engine movement is in addition to the movement can normally make. A normal Happy meal comes with a drink (for example), but if you are allowed to purchase additional fries for X amount of money, that doesn't mean the fries are part of the 'normal' Happy Meal.

Using outside sources as a logical argument for this. a + b = a + b. Two different things stay two different things. While 1a + 1a = 2a. In this case fries are fries and a drink is a drink (a and b). Movement is movement (a and a). More on this below.

yakface wrote:
You are certainly correct that the rules are unclear on this matter, if you try to shoehorn this interpretation into place you come into real trouble with the basic 'Tank Shock' rules (which by your interpretation the vehicle could also do with Star Engines in the shooting phase). With a Tank Shock move you have to declare how far you are going to move and you have to move 'at least combat speed'. How the heck does that work in the shooting phase?

Ramming requires one to move at full speed. At least that's how I understand this: Ramming is a rather desperate manoeuvre and means that the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle.

yakface wrote:
Does a vehicle making a Star Engines move still count as moving a 'speed' at all? If so, why is it allowed to move more than the 24" maximum prescribed by its unit type?' So if you're going to try to claim that Star Engine movement is simply additional 'normal' movement then you would still have to abide by the maximum speed allowed for the vehicle to move (24").

Yes, it's added to the speed of the vehicle. A skimmer moves at 12" in the movement phase and then 12" in the shooting it's now at flat out. Movement speed is defined as the total speed moved in the turn (AoBR, pg. 57) It may move over 24" because the rule states that the movement is additional and is added to the movement. When you have a maximum of 10 apples, you can never go over 10 apples but can have less, but if someone says that you may add up to 5 additional apples you now have a max of 15, but could have less. Also, they're all still apples.

Here is the thing...even if you COULD ram with the star engines, you could NOT use them in conjunction with your regular move because they are activated in a completely separate phase and you have "ended your movement" at the end of the movement phase. If no ram was applied during that phase then that precursory movement is null for any following ram. Using Flat-out movement as a reference for ramming is not valid as the rules and advantages for that movement are not even relevant to ramming.

Ramming says that you point the vehicle in a direction and move the maximum distance. What is your max distance in one phase? I ask because you can't attempt a ram in the movement phase and resolve it in the shooting phase.

Oh BTW, you also have to remember that 40k is a permissive rule set so unless something says you CAN do it, you CANNOT do it.

Kevin949 wrote:Here is the thing...even if you COULD ram with the star engines, you could NOT use them in conjunction with your regular move because they are activated in a completely separate phase and you have "ended your movement" at the end of the movement phase. If no ram was applied during that phase then that precursory movement is null for any following ram. Using Flat-out movement as a reference for ramming is not valid as the rules and advantages for that movement are not even relevant to ramming.

Referencing flat out was done for two reasons. One, to clearify that the additional movement counted towards total speed. Two, because you must move at max speed to ram and for a fast vehicle that is flat out. Never did I say that they can ram because it'll make it flat out. You're right, they're two diferent things, but one must happen for the other to happen.

Kevin949 wrote:
Ramming says that you point the vehicle in a direction and move the maximum distance. What is your max distance in one phase? I ask because you can't attempt a ram in the movement phase and resolve it in the shooting phase.

Again, it never says the movement must be in one phase. Also, with the addition of star engines, you're max movement is higher. It says that if you can't reach it with your movement then the ram fails, however with star engines you can still reach it. Phases are not mentioned, not once, in a single paragraph in neither ramming nor tank shocking. The word phase doesn't even occur.

Kevin949 wrote:
Oh BTW, you also have to remember that 40k is a permissive rule set so unless something says you CAN do it, you CANNOT do it.

If this was true then there'd be no need for a FAQ to clearify ambiguous rules. GW (mostly matt ward) has a bad habit of assuming we know what they're thinking when they write a rule.

Sothas wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Here is the thing...even if you COULD ram with the star engines, you could NOT use them in conjunction with your regular move because they are activated in a completely separate phase and you have "ended your movement" at the end of the movement phase. If no ram was applied during that phase then that precursory movement is null for any following ram. Using Flat-out movement as a reference for ramming is not valid as the rules and advantages for that movement are not even relevant to ramming.

Referencing flat out was done for two reasons. One, to clarify that the additional movement counted towards total speed. Two, because you must move at max speed to ram and for a fast vehicle that is flat out. Never did I say that they can ram because it'll make it flat out. You're right, they're two different things, but one must happen for the other to happen.

Kevin949 wrote:
Ramming says that you point the vehicle in a direction and move the maximum distance. What is your max distance in one phase? I ask because you can't attempt a ram in the movement phase and resolve it in the shooting phase.

Again, it never says the movement must be in one phase. Also, with the addition of star engines, you're max movement is higher. It says that if you can't reach it with your movement then the ram fails, however with star engines you can still reach it. Phases are not mentioned, not once, in a single paragraph in neither ramming nor tank shocking. The word phase doesn't even occur.

Kevin949 wrote:
Oh BTW, you also have to remember that 40k is a permissive rule set so unless something says you CAN do it, you CANNOT do it.

If this was true then there'd be no need for a FAQ to clarify ambiguous rules. GW (mostly matt ward) has a bad habit of assuming we know what they're thinking when they write a rule.

I said not to use the flat out reference because your example of moving 12" in the movement phase and moving 12" in the shooting phase with star engines will mean that on the next turn the vehicle will have a 4+ cover save. Great. That's a perfect rule that is specific to moving flat out, and the rule for moving flat out says "if the vehicle moved over XX inches in the previous turn...", right?

So, where in the rules for tank shock/ramming does it say you can add movement from two different phases? Yes, it says the vehicle has to move full speed. So, your full speed is either 24" in the movement phase or 12" in the shooting phase. But, this still doesn't answer if you can even declare a tank shock in the shooting phase because...every other vehicle in the game that I can think of HAS to do it in the movement phase because that is the only phase that those vehicles can move. Does the rule for star engines say that you CAN perform a tank shock with this movement? It doesn't, from what you've shown. Should the writer of the codex made a note of whether you can not? Ya.

Also, the entire point is moot for getting 12" extra on a ram attack when you can't go above str10 on a ram anyway. This could potentially allow two ram/tank shocks though. Or, of course, just getting to a vehicle is on the other side of the board.

Anyway, while it may not say in the exact words of "all movement is done in the same phase" it does say, (from memory, not in front of a book) "You turn your vehicle to face the direction you want it to go, you declare your ram and move your vehicle at it's top speed. It stops immediately if an enemy vehicle is met along the path, you then resolve the hit. If no vehicle is hit the vehicle moves its full distance and nothing happens." Sooo...you declare a ram in the movement phase. You move your vehicle, you are 28 inches away. Darn it. Your vehicle has stopped movement for this phase, the ram has missed, you have ended your movement phase and resolved everything that goes along with that (DT tests and the like). Shooting phase begins, you want to ram again using star engines and the 24" movement from the previous phase....wait, do you see the problem here now?

Now, if the entire discussion here was just "can you ram with star engines for a 12 inch ram maneuver in the shooting phase?" I might be a bit more inclined to say yes. But never shall you get the benefit of two phases of movement for the purpose of ramming because that's just simply not how the rules read. I do see how you're interpreting it, but to put it bluntly I feel you're interpreting it incorrectly.

So, can you ram twice, once in the movement phase and once in the shooting phase?

Honestly, with how the rule is written and everything I would be inclined to say yes...

So, ram them then back up and ram them again? I might have to start playing eldar.

-cgmckenzie

Kevin949 wrote:
I said not to use the flat out reference because your example of moving 12" in the movement phase and moving 12" in the shooting phase with star engines will mean that on the next turn the vehicle will have a 4+ cover save. Great. That's a perfect rule that is specific to moving flat out, and the rule for moving flat out says "if the vehicle moved over XX inches in the previous turn...", right?

Yes this is true. My example was given to demonstrate that the movement was added together to determine the speed. The rule specifically says speed = distance moved that turn. See below for why.
1. Normal movement. (what is normal movement?)
2. The +1 modifier to str for every 3" moved during the turn. The turn, not just the movement phase.

Kevin949 wrote:
So, where in the rules for tank shock/ramming does it say you can add movement from two different phases?

Like i said, it never says anything about phases at all. We are given two sets of words that can be used to determine whether or not one can tank shock with star engines.

Kevin949 wrote:
Yes, it says the vehicle has to move full speed. So, your full speed is either 24" in the movement phase or 12" in the shooting phase.

This is an assumption. It is assuming the star engines are not part of the same movement. The idea that they are part of the same movement is also an assumption though.

Kevin949 wrote:But, this still doesn't answer if you can even declare a tank shock in the shooting phase because...every other vehicle in the game that I can think of HAS to do it in the movement phase because that is the only phase that those vehicles can move.

This is incredibly backwards logic, especially for this game. You're sugesting that because normally other stuff can't do something then something with a special rule that is different from the general norm can't do it either JUST because others can't.

Kevin949 wrote:Does the rule for star engines say that you CAN perform a tank shock with this movement? It doesn't, from what you've shown. Should the writer of the codex made a note of whether you can not? Ya.

It does not. It also doesn't say you can't. Not in the BGB or the eldar dex or any FAQ. This is the issue, there's nothing that talks about it.

Kevin949 wrote:
Also, the entire point is moot for getting 12" extra on a ram attack when you can't go above str10 on a ram anyway. This could potentially allow two ram/tank shocks though. Or, of course, just getting to a vehicle is on the other side of the board.

The point would be for extra distance.

Kevin949 wrote:
Anyway, while it may not say in the exact words of "all movement is done in the same phase" it does say, (from memory, not in front of a book) "You turn your vehicle to face the direction you want it to go, you declare your ram and move your vehicle at it's top speed. It stops immediately if an enemy vehicle is met along the path, you then resolve the hit. If no vehicle is hit the vehicle moves its full distance and nothing happens."

Your summery is correct.

Kevin949 wrote:
Sooo...you declare a ram in the movement phase. You move your vehicle, you are 28 inches away. Darn it. Your vehicle has stopped movement for this phase, the ram has missed, you have ended your movement phase and resolved everything that goes along with that (DT tests and the like). Shooting phase begins, you want to ram again using star engines and the 24" movement from the previous phase....wait, do you see the problem here now?

No, I don't. In fact you're just proving my point. If in fact you can ram with the star engines in the shooting phase, then the 24" is added to it because it specifically says you get +1 to str for each 3" moved durrnig the turn... not just the phase.

Kevin949 wrote:
Now, if the entire discussion here was just "can you ram with star engines for a 12 inch ram maneuver in the shooting phase?" I might be a bit more inclined to say yes. But never shall you get the benefit of two phases of movement for the purpose of ramming because that's just simply not how the rules read. I do see how you're interpreting it, but to put it bluntly I feel you're interpreting it incorrectly.

No it is not how the rules read. They read entirely opposite of that.

Just in case you're unclear of what I've been reffering to, here's the exact word for word quote of the rule for str posted again.

AoBR Rulebook: pg. 69
Speed. Each full 3" moved that turn by the rammer before impact: +1

It's actually quite simple: if something deviates from the norm, then the full deviation must be explained.
Should Star Engine not allow tank shocking because it is done outside the movement phase, then the rules for either Star Engine or tank shock must specify otherwise.
We know that neither do. Star Engine simply refer to 12" movement, and tank shocking neither specify a specific type of movement (it specify maximum speed possible), a limit per turn, nor a limit to a specific phase.
In it's essence, if Star Engine wouldn't be allowed to tank shock, then it wouldn't be allowed to move as a skimmer, move into difficult terrain, move out of difficult terrain, etc etc, since all those rules are special rules associated to specific types of movement or specific types of vehicle in relation to normal movement.

I wouldn't say, if reading the rules literally, that an Eldar skimmer can not in this manner execute a tank shock, since the rules for tank shock requires you to move at a minimum of combat speed, which the skimmer is incapable of (it moves up to 12", which is not the same as moving at combat speed).

In the spirit of the fluff, however, I'd argue that a double tank shock or double ram is entirely possible, since Star Engines is not engine upgrades, but a sort of turbo-boost. But spirit of the fluff do not count here

@cgmckenzie: No, you're not able to back up and ram again since the movement phase move ends when the result of the ram is finished and backing up and ramming again would require two moves. It is capable of simply ramming and then engaging the secondary engines to bounce against the armour a second time. No need to back up.
Can ram two targets for full effect per phase as well.

This'll all probably be homogenized away in the next codex, though.

Star Engines are not "normal" movement. Normal movement follow the standard movement rules as outlined in the BRB. Moving in the shooting phase is not normal movement. The movement for a tank shock, and subsequently ramming, must be normal movement.

Just in case there's further question on the word normal:
nor·mal
   [nawr-muhl]
–adjective
1. conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural.

Star Engines' movement does not conform to the standard or the common type.

It's another specific > general rule. If you have a special rule that doesn't specifically say it can do what you are attempting (and the general rules don't support it), then you can't do it.

Ramming uses the tank shock rules
Tank shocks are done instead of a normal move
As far as the whole "normal move" debate, things that have never counted as normal movement to begin with have been ones that take place outside of the movement phase (runs, assaults, fallback etc)
The star engine takes place in the shooting phase, not the movement phase, AND it can't be done normally anyway because it is done in place of shooting

We can argue in circles about this all year, but the normal rules don't support the use of this kind of ramming, which means the responsibility of proving it can, falls on the eldar player. Your rules don't say you can't, but they don't say you can. Without any other rule backing you up, if it doesn't say you can, then you can't