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Just want to check if this really bizarre reading sounds right to everyone:

Let's say I ram something with an Eldar tank with a holofield. Does the holofield affect the damage roll?

Eldar codex P 44 under "Holofield"
"Whenever your opponent rolls on the damage table for that vehicle, they must roll two dice and apply the lowest result."

So it doesn't matter what caused the damage: shooting, assault, movement phase, whatever. It only matters who rolls the dice. At first I thought I would need to persuade my opponent to roll the ram damage dice on my vehicle, but then I looked at the ramming rules:

"Both players roll for armor penetration against their enemy vehicle, and any result is immediately applied." (69 emphasis added)

So the opponent rolls the dice for the results of the ramming attack, therefore holofields work in ram attacks?

yes, it appears so. that is kind of awesome.

Fluffwise i'd say holofield doesn't apply, as visual and sensor ghosts aren't going to help a hull to hull collision much (you could argue that it spoils the aim a bit, i guess).

Ruleswise it would apply, probably, as he is inflicting a hit on your vehicle from the ram that rolls on the damage table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That said anyone ramming an eldar skimmer is desperate anyway, or suicidal..

The rule says anytime, and ramming causes a roll on the table, so yes anytime.

Coool, so if you can get a 21+" draw on an enemy tank, you inflict a str10 hit and even though you'll probably take a penetrating hit yourself, there's a 1/3 chance you'll only be shaken.

Die, monolith!

Flavius Infernus wrote:Coool, so if you can get a 21+" draw on an enemy tank, you inflict a str10 hit and even though you'll probably take a penetrating hit yourself, there's a 1/3 chance you'll only be shaken.

Die, monolith!

You could with star engines!

No you can't, star engines are used during the shooting phase.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490292a_FAQ_Eldar_2009.pdf
"Q. The Star Engines description says the vehicle may move an extra 12" ‘in lieu of shooting’. Does this mean that they cannot make this extra move if they are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being shaken). Also, when is this move executed – in the Movement or the Shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines. This means that it can use them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting phase."

ChrisCP wrote:No you can't, star engines are used during the shooting phase.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490292a_FAQ_Eldar_2009.pdf
"Q. The Star Engines description says the vehicle may move an extra 12" ‘in lieu of shooting’. Does this mean that they cannot make this extra move if they are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being shaken). Also, when is this move executed – in the Movement or the Shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines. This means that it can use them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting phase."

There's been threads on this, and it's been determined that it doesn't make any difference when the move is. Tank shocking and ramming is not a phase specific thing and specifically says the str is based on how far the vehicle has moved in the turn. It counts the entire movement of both the movement phase and the star engines.

Star engines won't make any difference on the strength of the hit either way.

21+" =7 + 2 for armor +1 for tank = Str10

That's the max.

Local Eldar players love doing this.
Legal yet completely slowed consider how holofields is suppose to work.

Sothas wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:No you can't, star engines are used during the shooting phase.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490292a_FAQ_Eldar_2009.pdf
"Q. The Star Engines description says the vehicle may move an extra 12" ‘in lieu of shooting’. Does this mean that they cannot make this extra move if they are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being shaken). Also, when is this move executed – in the Movement or the Shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines. This means that it can use them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting phase."

There's been threads on this, and it's been determined that it doesn't make any difference when the move is. Tank shocking and ramming is not a phase specific thing and specifically says the str is based on how far the vehicle has moved in the turn. It counts the entire movement of both the movement phase and the star engines.

If ramming is not phase dependent could someone ram twice? once with normal move (in the movement phase) and once with star engines (in the shooting phase)?

Sothas wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:No you can't, star engines are used during the shooting phase.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490292a_FAQ_Eldar_2009.pdf
"Q. The Star Engines description says the vehicle may move an extra 12" ‘in lieu of shooting’. Does this mean that they cannot make this extra move if they are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being shaken). Also, when is this move executed – in the Movement or the Shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines. This means that it can use them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting phase."

There's been threads on this, and it's been determined that it doesn't make any difference when the move is. Tank shocking and ramming is not a phase specific thing and specifically says the str is based on how far the vehicle has moved in the turn. It counts the entire movement of both the movement phase and the star engines.

So I can move 21" with star engines?.....

Yes, if you move 9" in the movement phase, then 12" in the shooting phase (star engines). It will total 21", if I understand what you are asking.

Or, you could just move Flat Out and go 21" in the movement phase since the Falcon is a Fast Skimmer.

Sothas wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:No you can't, star engines are used during the shooting phase.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490292a_FAQ_Eldar_2009.pdf
"Q. The Star Engines description says the vehicle may move an extra 12" ‘in lieu of shooting’. Does this mean that they cannot make this extra move if they are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being shaken). Also, when is this move executed – in the Movement or the Shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines. This means that it can use them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting phase."

There's been threads on this, and it's been determined that it doesn't make any difference when the move is. Tank shocking and ramming is not a phase specific thing and specifically says the str is based on how far the vehicle has moved in the turn. It counts the entire movement of both the movement phase and the star engines.

I call BS.

You only Ram in the Movement Phase, you do not Ram in any other phase; therefore Star engines cannot be used in a ram.

You may be mistaking the discussions on Speed moved, which is over the course of the whole turn(Said discussion stated that should you ram in the movement phase and only move 6" you have not moved more than combat speed, or more to the point should you ram with a fast transport and move less than 12" you are not moving flat out and therefore your transported unit is not destroyed, disembarkation is still allowed). that discussion had nothing to do with Ramming in the Shooting/assault phases.

If it helps you, think of ramming with Holofields this way. It wasn't that the holofield protected the vehicle, it was that sensor ghosts from the holofields made the enemy vehicle veer into terrain more than hitting the skimmer.

Homer

I personally always take holofields just so I can survive being shot by AT weaponry. Now I have another reason for them

Homer S wrote:If it helps you, think of ramming with Holofields this way. It wasn't that the holofield protected the vehicle, it was that sensor ghosts from the holofields made the enemy vehicle veer into terrain more than hitting the skimmer.

Homer

And yet that works when the Eldar vehicle deliberately rams the enemy?

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Sothas wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:No you can't, star engines are used during the shooting phase.
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490292a_FAQ_Eldar_2009.pdf
"Q. The Star Engines description says the vehicle may move an extra 12" ‘in lieu of shooting’. Does this mean that they cannot make this extra move if they are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being shaken). Also, when is this move executed – in the Movement or the Shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines. This means that it can use them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting phase."

There's been threads on this, and it's been determined that it doesn't make any difference when the move is. Tank shocking and ramming is not a phase specific thing and specifically says the str is based on how far the vehicle has moved in the turn. It counts the entire movement of both the movement phase and the star engines.

I call BS.

You only Ram in the Movement Phase, you do not Ram in any other phase; therefore Star engines cannot be used in a ram.

You may be mistaking the discussions on Speed moved, which is over the course of the whole turn(Said discussion stated that should you ram in the movement phase and only move 6" you have not moved more than combat speed, or more to the point should you ram with a fast transport and move less than 12" you are not moving flat out and therefore your transported unit is not destroyed, disembarkation is still allowed). that discussion had nothing to do with Ramming in the Shooting/assault phases.

Ok. Here's some quotes to help you understand that you indeed can ram with star engines.

AoBR Rulebook: pg. 69
Ramming is a rather desperate manoeuvre and means that the tank must concentrate on moving at top speed towards one enemy vehicle. This means that it may not shoot in that turn’s Shooting phase, making it an attractive choice for vehicles that have no armament left, or are shaken. Ramming is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way, except that the tank must always move at the highest speed it is capable of.

Eldar FAQ:
The Star Engines description says the vehicle may move an extra 12" ‘in lieu of shooting’. Does this mean that they cannot make this extra move if they are unable to shoot for other reasons (such as being shaken). Also, when is this move executed – in the Movement or the Shooting phase?
A. As long as the vehicle is allowed to move that turn, and does not shoot or embark/disembark troops, it may use its Star Engines. This means that it can use them when shaken, but not whilst stunned. This extra move of up to 12" is executed during the Shooting phase.

AoBR Rulebook: pg. 69
Speed. Each full 3" moved that turn by the rammer before impact: +1

I added the eldar faq just incase someone might argue the whole can't do it if you can't shoot cuz of "in lieu of shooting" thing which is invalid. Now obviously, as has been pointed out, the extra move is not required to reach the full str 10 hit, but it can be used as a first or last turn ram/tank shock. I've seen it one shot a lemem russ on the side armor a few time first turn. With the addition of halo fields it makes for a hilarious surprise.

There ya go. I hope that helps.

Either you have missed what i was saying, or you are claiming something else entirely.

Ramming is only done in the movement Phase.

I'd quote the Rules for tank shock(which is how the ram is performed per the Quote you provided); but it is the entirety of the tank shock rules that explain that Tank shocks(and by extension rams) happen in the Movement Phase.

If however you wanted to wiggle in with the fact that "when moving", while assuming to happen in the movement phase, does not take into account special rules that allow extra-movement phase moves; fear not, I can add some extra screw-you fun to that.

Assuming you were to go the wriggle-route; then you would have to declare the ram as the Star-engine Movement; this means you now have a ram speed of only 12" putting your AV12 front armor tank with a maximum Str of 7, and only if the Target is exactly 12" away. this would allow you to Ram twice in the Same turn(once in the movement Phase and then again in the Shooting Phase).

P.S. I never argued that you could not use Star engines on the same turn as that in which you ram, only that you cannot Ram in the Shooting phase, and even if you could, you do not ad all of your movement together.

P.S.S. I would rather like to know where these discussion on how Star engines can be used for ramming are located; I would like at the very least to read the arguments presented therein.

There is nothing, anywhere that states ramming or tank shocking has to take place in the movement phase. It's been a while since I've seen this argument so I refreshed myself on the rules right before I posted that just in case. The words "movement phase" never apear in the rules for tank shocking or ramming. Not once. Not slightly, not kinda, not at all. Also there is no statement restricting tank shocking from occuring in the shooting phase. In fact the only mention of the shooting phase is that you may not shoot if you ram. You can, however shoot if you tank shock. You can even tank shock and continue through the squad (assuming the tank wasn't disabled or prevented from moving in some way) and ram a tank.

I agree that ramming is normally done in the movement phase because vehicles cannot normally move durring any other phase. There is no restriction though about what phase a tank shock or ram may occur.

I am not blind to the idea that I have completely missed something. So if you could be so kind to quote exactly, and provide a page number to something that states tank shocking/ramming can only occur in the movement phase and/or cannot occur in the shooting or assault phase then I will back down off of my argument and hubbly bow out.

Here's the thread I was talking about. It started as something else and working into "can't ram cuz you can't shoot" which the eldar FAQ clearifies that it can use star engines if it can't normally shoot making in invalid. The only other argument is that "it happens durring the movement phase" which the rules do not actually specify.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/362544.page#2707235

I've moved this debate since we highjacked the thread and this thread has been answered.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/373590.page

Instead of moving "normally"

Star engine movement isnt normal.

It is for a vehicle with star engines. They would normally move in the shooting phase

Not saying i support doubletap ramming, but if a vehicle can move, it can do those things that you can do while moving.