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I had a friend play against Imperial Guard recently and he purchased Star Engines for his Wave serpents. He then proceeded to move 36 inches in his movement phase and ram a Leman Russ 1st turn. Is this considered bad form or even a bad idea? He bare bonesed the Serpent in order to do this and he placed a unit of fire dragons inside so they could jump out and fire at another tank after the Serpent exploded. Is this worth it?

I just don't see this happening often and don't like the idea of using my Wave Serpents as a 1st turn bomb onto a tank. Has anyone else ever done this? How effective is this? I could see later on in a game, but 1st turn seems a little much.

when the wave serpent is destroyed when it rams all passengers are destroyed, if he flat-out, i think 36 inch is flat-out?

Yes, flat out on a wave serpent with star engines would be 36 inches. Where does it say that they would die? Page Number? I'm just curious.

its a combination of page 71 and from the FAQ:
Q: If a transport vehicle is destroyed in the same turn as it
moved flat out what happens to any embarked models? (p70)
A: They are removed as casualties.

Ah! I guess it helps if I have the most up to date FAQ. Thanks for the help.

Also, I don't have my rulebook with me, but I don't think he gets all 36" of movement toward the ram damage.

For one thing, ramming damage can never be more than str10 (as per the rulebook FAQ), and he gets that from moving 21"+, so there's no extra strength from the star engines anyway.

But the way star engines work, he gets his regular 24" during the movement phase and an additional 12" during the shooting phase, so he shouldn't be taking the movement all at once anyway.

Wave serpents can't ram, you have to be a tank (i think).

If you can then, fair enough.

-Alex.

Wave Serpents are tanks
Codex p63

Type: Skimmer, Tank, Fast

Yea, the maximum Strength is 10. Read that in the FAQ.

I guess the game I watched was just full of wrongness. Atleast I'll know for the next time I play against him. Thanks.

And there is much debate on if you can ram at all using Star Engines as Star Engines are used in the shooting phase in lieu of shooting. Ramming says it is a special type of tank shock move and is executed the same way.

Since it is a special type of Tank Shock, you look at how a tank shock is executed and it says " When moving a tank, the player can declare that the vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack instead of moving normally."

So it seems to indicate Tank shocking, and therefore Ramming is done in the normal movement phase, not in the shooting phase.

But as I already said, there is much debate about this and GW hasn't come right out and said one way or the other so who knows?

You don't need to be a tank to ram. You just get an armour penetration bonus if you are.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:You don't need to be a tank to ram. You just get an armour penetration bonus if you are.

Wrong. You need to be a tank to tank shock, and a ram is a kind of tank shock. So you need to be a tank to ram. The +1 for being a tank is a bonus for when you ram something that isn't a tank, like a Rhino ramming an Ork Trukk.

Man, sounds like that game had issues...

Wave serpent ramming 36", then spilling out fire dragons who fired at another tank. *laughing* Some visitation of the rulebook from time to time is important!

Chrysis wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:You don't need to be a tank to ram. You just get an armour penetration bonus if you are.

Wrong. You need to be a tank to tank shock, and a ram is a kind of tank shock. So you need to be a tank to ram. The +1 for being a tank is a bonus for when you ram something that isn't a tank, like a Rhino ramming an Ork Trukk.

Not completely true, there are things that are not tanks that can tank shock and ram. Take Raiders, Venoms, and Ravagers. None are tanks, but I can buy them vehicle upgrades that give them the ability to Tank Shock, hence making them able to ram. the +1 for being a tank is for this instance in particular, as none of the DE vehicles are tanks, and cannot claim the +1 for ramming. (However, if I do ram, I will do my best to make sure I get as close to 21" or higher as I can in order to get anywhere between a S7 and S10 hit).

You don't have to be a tank to tank shocck it just helps against vehicles.

Snickerdoodle wrote:You don't have to be a tank to tank shocck it just helps against vehicles.

Yes... you do. Read the page 68, second paragraph. tanks are the only ones who have the special rule for tank shocking and ramming. This is why ork trukks and DE raiders both have upgrades that allow them to tank shock...

Eldar are known for their ability to be very annoying the last turn of a game and tank shock troops off objectives.

Right my bad. You do have to be a tank. The +1 penetration for being a tank is a bit conufsing though. I assume its if you ram an enemy tank?

So it seems to indicate Tank shocking, and therefore Ramming is done in the normal movement phase, not in the shooting phase.

That's the point. Star engines do not help in this way.

It says that "when it moves", it doesn't say "in the movement phase." Star engines are movement in lue of shooting, therefore should be able to tank shock/ram. I've seen this debate and I think there's no need for it personally.

There are two problems with what your friend did.

1. As stated earlier, units inside a tank that's destroyed moving flat out are removed.

2. You cannont disembark units in the same turn you use star engines.

The safer way to do it is to move 24" (since you only need 21"+) instead of 36" and not risk loosing your units. This way if the wave serpent is destroyed then he can shoot with the dragons. It's cheesy, but nothing says you can't do it.

Also I'm pretty sure (although I'll need to verify) that it says you get a bonus to your str based on how far you've moved that turn (not just in the movement phase). With this you can add both moves together making your hit S10.

In conclusion, what your friend did is fine, he just messed up on a few things.

I don't see any debate on the star engines being used for ramming: ramming states that it uses the total amount the vehicle has moved during the turn. It it moves 36 inches, it moves 36 inches. Could an FAQ clear it up to only include during the movement phase? Yes. But as it stands now, 36 is acceptable for ramming. It just won't bump you above S10. And yes, the FAQ does say models inside the tank die if it wrecks when going flat out.

In the players defence, he was about 34" away from a contested objective. He went the 34 or so inches and rammed. He had an older version of the FAQ of which so did I, so we didn't see the part where passengers would die. Both tanks blew up, and he took saves on the unit inside. They did, proceed to shoot that turn in their shooting phase.

So yea, he did do a few things wrong. I printed out new FAQ's for the group we game with just in case.

I NEVER use star engines myself, so I didn't bother checking when he did it. I was just casually watching his game as I was playing Necromunda (awesome game) at the time. I just thought it added 12" to his movement, DURING the movement phase. I didn't ever realize it was done during the shooting phase. I will also have to call him on this.

Thanks for all the help guys. He is a fairly new player and has only been playing for a few months so I can understand the learning curve. I appreciate the responses.

We all had to learn some time and to make mistakes is the best way to do it. Just remember to tell him his units will die and if the tank doesn't, then he can't disembark/embark in the same turn. Says so right in the star engine entry.

I actually don't see where it says that it happens during the shooting phase. All i see is that it is an additional 12" istead of shooting.

Someone care to point out where it says this

"Star Engines: The vehicle has a number of secondary engines that can be used to boost it to breakneck speeds. It may move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not embark or disembark that turn"

No where here does it suggest that it happens during the shooting phase. All i see is that it move 12" more, and can't shoot.

Also realize that if you guys were correct, star engines would be utterly worthless! In lieu means instead of, so if it did happen in the shooting phase, you could only use star engines if you moved 12" or less, because you would have to be able to shoot (Just like a fire prism has to be able to shoot if it wants to contribute it's beam)

"In lieu of shoot" means that you do it durring the shooting phase instead of shooting. Think of it as tank running. Also remember that the eldar dex is last edition and is in a desperate need of a new one.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:I actually don't see where it says that it happens during the shooting phase. All i see is that it is an additional 12" istead of shooting.

Someone care to point out where it says this

"Star Engines: The vehicle has a number of secondary engines that can be used to boost it to breakneck speeds. It may move an additional 12" in lieu of shooting, but troops may not embark or disembark that turn"

No where here does it suggest that it happens during the shooting phase. All i see is that it move 12" more, and can't shoot.

Also realize that if you guys were correct, star engines would be utterly worthless! In lieu means instead of, so if it did happen in the shooting phase, you could only use star engines if you moved 12" or less, because you would have to be able to shoot (Just like a fire prism has to be able to shoot if it wants to contribute it's beam)

(1) If you're doing it "in lieu of shooting," that means in the shooting phase, when you would otherwise shoot. Also part of this is from experience of star engines from the last 2 Eldar dexes before this one, where star engines always went in the shooting phase.

(2) "In lieu of" doesn't mean you have to be able to do the thing you're substituting for. I can say "I went to the store in lieu of going to the moon" without it meaning that I needed to be able to go to the moon. In fact, you can do something in lieu of something else *because* you can't do the first thing, as in the sentence "we didn't have enough money, so we went to the park in lieu of the cinema."

So if I move flat out I must be doing it during the shooting phase as well because I I can't shoot?

(2) "In lieu of" doesn't mean you have to be able to do the thing you're substituting for. I can say "I went to the store in lieu of going to the moon" without it meaning that I needed to be able to go to the moon. In fact, you can do something in lieu of something else *because* you can't do the first thing, as in the sentence "we didn't have enough money, so we went to the park in lieu of the cinema."

Care to explain this then?

Q. Can a Fire Prism still contribute its prism cannon
even if the cannon is destroyed or the vehicle is
Stunned or Shaken?
A. No, the model must voluntarily give up its chance to
fire the prism cannon in order to contribute.

Though... in the FAQ I just realized that it clarifies that it is done in the shooting phase, so my point is moot, but not for the reasons given.

wisdomseyes1 wrote:So if I move flat out I must be doing it during the shooting phase as well because I I can't shoot?

(2) "In lieu of" doesn't mean you have to be able to do the thing you're substituting for. I can say "I went to the store in lieu of going to the moon" without it meaning that I needed to be able to go to the moon. In fact, you can do something in lieu of something else *because* you can't do the first thing, as in the sentence "we didn't have enough money, so we went to the park in lieu of the cinema."

Care to explain this then?

Q. Can a Fire Prism still contribute its prism cannon
even if the cannon is destroyed or the vehicle is
Stunned or Shaken?
A. No, the model must voluntarily give up its chance to
fire the prism cannon in order to contribute.

Though... in the FAQ I just realized that it clarifies that it is done in the shooting phase, so my point is moot, but not for the reasons given.

We should probably move further discussion of this over to YMDC (although there's probably already a thread on this there), but yes, the fire prism rule required clarification in the FAQ because without the clarification, the "in lieu of" rule means that a shaken or stunned or fast-moving prism can still contribute to another prism's shot.