Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Apparently this argument has come up many times before and I think that the GW rules are a little too vague on this. I want to take a unit of (2) servitors armed with plasma cannons with my TFC and the Techmarine that accompanies it. I will agree with the rule stating that because the Techmarine is not an IC UNTIL the TFC is destroyed therefore the servitors are subject to the mindlock rule. But the argument that the servitors cannot be purchased by the TFC Techmarine AT ALL seems a bit weak. YES, it does say "techmarine gunner" in the TFC entry, but it also says "Techmarine" in the stat box just above that. The codex states "Each Thunderfire Cannon is crewed by a single Techmarine (see page 71 for special rules)." NOWHERE on page 73 (TFC page) nor on page 71 (Techmarine page) does it even mention the words Techmarine gunner. Therefore, until someone can prove to me, without the shadow of a doubt, that the TFC Techmarine cannot take a unit of servitor's, I will continue to do so, and feel justified in doing it.

The thing is, the techMarine in the TFC is NOT the same ENTRY as the ELITE techmarine.

ie: Devastator squads, not same point cost as Tactical marine and can take more HW.

ie2: Ork Nobs, the entry in boyz nob do not allow kombi weapons and other wargear the Elite Entry allows, same unit name, different entry.

If you read the Armybuilding part correctly you'll see that the servitors are part of the TechMarine Entry not the TFC techmarine (gunner). Having two different entries for the same units happens in a lot of codexes. It sucks but that is how it is.

Plus, your techmarine gunner does NOT have the IC and Omnissiah rule. he GAINS them when his TFC is destroyed. When he becomes an IC, then he might would be able to get servitors but when he loses his TFC, the army building and deploying phase is done and so, new units cannot get unto the board unless they have DeepStrike or Outflank special rules (which servitors don't).

FYI: I have the SM codex in front of me.

The issue here is not the Techmarine vs Thunderfire Cannon entry. The important part is the Servitor entry. The Servitor unit is separate from the Techmarine; it is not an upgrade, for example.

It says that you may take a unit of servitors for each Techmarine or Master of the Forge in the army. It doesn't say anything about whether you take it as an Elites or Heavy Support choice.

So, yes, you can take a unit of Servitors. The Thunderfire Gunner still doesn't have the IC rule, however (until the Cannon dies), so the servitors will not be able to join him.

What Xarian said. The Techmarine Gunner is a Techmarine, so I see no reason you couldn't take the unit of Servitors. They simply won't be able to join him until the cannon is destroyed.

By the same token then, you should be able to take a unit of servitors along with the tech marine you can buy as an upgrade in a Predator for example? I mean he's there... just can't operate independently until his vehicle is wrecked.

Gitsplitta wrote:... the tech marine you can buy as an upgrade in a Predator for example?

The what?

Where are you getting that from?

Vanilla dex. He's a special character with one of the chapters in the vanilla dex that you can take as an (expensive) upgrade in most tanks (you only get him once of course). He gives you repair rolls while the tank is running and emerges as a tech marine on the field if it gets wrecked. Sort of like Telion save he's taken as a vehicle upgrade.

Don't have the dex with me so I can't check it right now.

So if I'm reading these posts correctly, You CAN take a unit of Servitors with the TFC, but they don't join the unit until the TFC is destroyed. Is that to say that the Servitors fire independantly from the TFC and have to use the mindlock rule, until the TFC is destroyed, then theTechmarine joins them and does away withthe mindlock rule. If that is correct then I will be fielding some TFCs in the near future.

He's not a techmarine. He's a veteran tank commander. His name is Cronus IIRC.

Never reference obscure rules by memory.

Chronus isn't a Techmarine. He doesn't have the name Techmarine, doesn't have any of the rules Techmarines have, and the only similarity is that he has a Servo-arm.

Moreover, he also doesn't give repair rolls to tanks, he ignores Stunned/Shaken.

He's an Ultramarine Brother-Sergeant.

AH.... that jogged my memory... "Brother Sergeant Chronos".

That's why I framed my original observation as a question rather than a statement of fact. Wasn't sure about it... had this vague memory of a tech-like upgrade character. Obviously screwed the pooch on that one.

Thanks for the clarification.

somerandomdude wrote:Never reference obscure rules by memory.

Chronus isn't a Techmarine. He doesn't have the name Techmarine, doesn't have any of the rules Techmarines have, and the only similarity is that he has a Servo-arm.

Moreover, he also doesn't give repair rolls to tanks, he ignores Stunned/Shaken.

He's an Ultramarine Brother-Sergeant.

And just to clarify, nowhere in the codex it says that Chronus is a techmarine so he is not one. I think it would also be mentioned in the servitor entry or in his own entry that Chronus could have them if it was possible. For example the command squad entry states that certain special character captains can have a command squad and in Calgar's and Kantor's entries it is stated that they can have the honour guard.

But to stay on the original question the servitor entry states that "These units do not count against your HQ or Elites allowance." In my understanding that sentence alone forbids the TFC Techmarine from taking them.

gaovinni wrote:

somerandomdude wrote:Never reference obscure rules by memory.

Chronus isn't a Techmarine. He doesn't have the name Techmarine, doesn't have any of the rules Techmarines have, and the only similarity is that he has a Servo-arm.

Moreover, he also doesn't give repair rolls to tanks, he ignores Stunned/Shaken.

He's an Ultramarine Brother-Sergeant.

And just to clarify, nowhere in the codex it says that Chronus is a techmarine so he is not one. I think it would also be mentioned in the servitor entry or in his own entry that Chronus could have them if it was possible. For example the command squad entry states that certain special character captains can have a command squad and in Calgar's and Kantor's entries it is stated that they can have the honour guard.

But to stay on the original question the servitor entry states that "These units do not count against your HQ or Elites allowance." In my understanding that sentence alone forbids the TFC Techmarine from taking them.

Color me confused, in what way does that statement not allow the TFC techmarine to take a servitor squad?

gaovinni wrote:In my understanding that sentence alone forbids the TFC Techmarine from taking them.

How?

insaniak wrote:

gaovinni wrote:In my understanding that sentence alone forbids the TFC Techmarine from taking them.

How?

In my understanding (which has been proven wrong on several occasions) the fact that it mentions the servitors do not count towards the HQ or Elite allowances means you cannot take them for a Heavy support techmarine. I want to know the answer to this question also because the wording for these rules is rather vague.

to clarify my point.

there is a lign differiencing the entries in the codex. The TechMarine entry finishes under the Servitor entry which indicates that the servitors are part of his entry. The servitor entry is like a sub entry to the techmarine

I think his reasoning is:

MotF and Techmarines (the two units that most surely allow for a Servitor unit) are HQs and Elites. Servitors have the same wording that Honor Guard and Command Squads use, in that they are unlocked by a unit in a particular FoC, but do not take up an additional spot (that last part isn't specifically stated, however). Since the Servitor entry makes no reference to the Thunderfire Cannon, Techmarine Gunner, or Heavy Support choice, the Servitors are not unlocked by the TFC.

The real problem is this: Pg 73 (the entry for TFC) states that it is crewed by a single Techmarine, while pg 142 (the option lists for TFC) states that it includes a Techmarine Gunner. Going by pg 73 alone, you are allowed a Servitor unit. Going by pg 142 alone, you are not allowed a Servitor unit, as a Techmarine Gunner is not what the rules talk about.

However, going by both, he is still a Techmarine, so you are allowed a Servitor unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sub-zero wrote:So if I'm reading these posts correctly, You CAN take a unit of Servitors with the TFC, but they don't join the unit until the TFC is destroyed. Is that to say that the Servitors fire independantly from the TFC and have to use the mindlock rule, until the TFC is destroyed, then theTechmarine joins them and does away withthe mindlock rule. If that is correct then I will be fielding some TFCs in the near future.

Please note that the Servitors and Techmarine/MotF that unlocks them are not required to be joined together. It just makes things a bit easier, that's all.

I think Gits is thinking of Sgt Chronus.... who is not a tech marine but can repair a tank he is in.

somerandomdude wrote:I think his reasoning is:

MotF and Techmarines (the two units that most surely allow for a Servitor unit) are HQs and Elites. Servitors have the same wording that Honor Guard and Command Squads use, in that they are unlocked by a unit in a particular FoC, but do not take up an additional spot (that last part isn't specifically stated, however). Since the Servitor entry makes no reference to the Thunderfire Cannon, Techmarine Gunner, or Heavy Support choice, the Servitors are not unlocked by the TFC.

The real problem is this: Pg 73 (the entry for TFC) states that it is crewed by a single Techmarine, while pg 142 (the option lists for TFC) states that it includes a Techmarine Gunner. Going by pg 73 alone, you are allowed a Servitor unit. Going by pg 142 alone, you are not allowed a Servitor unit, as a Techmarine Gunner is not what the rules talk about.

However, going by both, he is still a Techmarine, so you are allowed a Servitor unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sub-zero wrote:So if I'm reading these posts correctly, You CAN take a unit of Servitors with the TFC, but they don't join the unit until the TFC is destroyed. Is that to say that the Servitors fire independantly from the TFC and have to use the mindlock rule, until the TFC is destroyed, then theTechmarine joins them and does away withthe mindlock rule. If that is correct then I will be fielding some TFCs in the near future.

Please note that the Servitors and Techmarine/MotF that unlocks them are not required to be joined together. It just makes things a bit easier, that's all.

Thank you, justification at last!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

helgrenze wrote:I think Gits is thinking of Sgt Chronus.... who is not a tech marine but can repair a tank he is in.

Ummmm I don't think that Chronus can repair the tank, just ignore crew shaken and crew stunned results. O and the tank uses his BS skill when firing.

hmm, well somerandomdude made it clear,

can't wait for tehat 35 templates list with ML man

You know, at this point I'm curious about tournament rules on this topic. Is it up to the judges or the players to determine what is "fair". Let's say my first opponent let's me play my list, I win, but then my second opponent cries foul and says that my list is illegal. Apparently there is about a 50/50 split on whether this topic is legal or not. What do you all think?

X Servitors can be taken for every techmarine in the army. The thungerfire cannon is manned by a techmarine, so they can be taken. They can't join the unit with the TFC but can hang around, being stupid.

-cgmckenzie

sub-zero wrote:You know, at this point I'm curious about tournament rules on this topic. Is it up to the judges or the players to determine what is "fair". Let's say my first opponent let's me play my list, I win, but then my second opponent cries foul and says that my list is illegal. Apparently there is about a 50/50 split on whether this topic is legal or not. What do you all think?

This is one of the reasons that decently run tournaments require you to submit your list before the event. If the judges approve it, there is then no reason for your opponents to complain about it.

If there is no list checking, then you're at the mercy of your opponents and the judge on this sort of issue. Ultimately, it's the judge's call, but if they're not checking lists its only going to be an issue if an opponent complains.

insaniak wrote:

sub-zero wrote:You know, at this point I'm curious about tournament rules on this topic. Is it up to the judges or the players to determine what is "fair". Let's say my first opponent let's me play my list, I win, but then my second opponent cries foul and says that my list is illegal. Apparently there is about a 50/50 split on whether this topic is legal or not. What do you all think?

This is one of the reasons that decently run tournaments require you to submit your list before the event. If the judges approve it, there is then no reason for your opponents to complain about it.

If there is no list checking, then you're at the mercy of your opponents and the judge on this sort of issue. Ultimately, it's the judge's call, but if they're not checking lists its only going to be an issue if an opponent complains.

I agree with you 100%, but, In the case of TFC techmarine servitors, it seems that there is a bit of confusion on whether they are legal or not. I would just hate to go to a tourney, submit my list, and it be shot down because the judge doesn't agree with my take on the rules. What we really need is a FAQ from GW about this issue, I'll start holding my breath now...

sub-zero wrote:I would just hate to go to a tourney, submit my list, and it be shot down because the judge doesn't agree with my take on the rules.

Then don't do that, would be the obvious answer...

If the tournament doesn't have a pre-event list submission, check with the judge prior to the event, rather than just turning up on the day and hoping for the best.

Checking with the TO is always "win" in this situation.