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In my quest to find an army which not many people play and is quite cheap on the pocket, I've decided to go with Daemons.

Is there any tactical advice any of you can give me please? I haven't played Daemons since 2nd ed.

Many Thanks.

Cheap on the pocket? Daemons?! Admittedly, they're possessing much more plastics than they had before, but still...

I can tell you that Yermon (Brown Paintbrush blog IIRC) is a great Daemon player so would be well worth asking for advice.
IMHO, I think the typically strong units are:
- Bloodthirsters, Keeper of Secrets', Heralds of Tzeentch and Fateweaver - who is very popular for competitive lists.
- Bloodcrushers and Fiends are easily the best choice for the elites section.
- Daemonettes, Bloodletters, Horrors and Plaguebearers are all pretty good. Plaguebearers are most peoples standard choice for a troop choice as they do best what troops should do; hold objectives. It's debatable whether you want a large squad of troops for more durability or more numerous smaller squads for more accurate deepstriking and multiple objective holding; I'd probably recommend the latter, particularly for Plague Bearers. Kill points shouldn't be a problem as you don't have to worry about dedicate transports being easy KP's.
- AFAIK Fast Attack is pretty bare in terms of quality unit selection; AFAIK seekers are the best here.
- For Heavy Support Daemon Princes and Soulgrinders are your best choices, providing your main source of anti-tank which Daemons otherwise lack.

Hope that helps man. Good luck.

I say cheap on the pocket compared to Marines, where I would buy all the needed Shoulder Pads and Rhino/Land Riader doors.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
TY for the info.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This is pretty sweet.

All those units you mentioned are among my favorites in the army model wise - Win.

Is the special character Bloodthirster any good?

That's fair enough man, hope that helps! Apart from the Plaguebearers, I think they're all plastic too, which obviously helps!

Regarding the special Bloodthirster, as I said, I'm not a daemon player so I wouldn't know for sure, however as far as I know it's probably not any good unless you're at a high-points level and playing Grey Knights, whereby they wouldn't gain preferred enemy from him - they already have it.

Also:
http://thebrownpaintbrush.blogspot.com/

The Bloodthrister is a really good HQ choice. Most typical "Fatecrusher" lists (Fate weaver + squads of bloodcrushers) will most like either have a Bloodthrister or 2 Tzeentch Heralds on chariots as the other HQ choices.

Most of the other info Just Dave gave was pretty good. Soulgrinders vs. Daemon Princes is a preference really, but I've seen most people taking Daemon Princes unless at low points levels or if they're very Khorne heavy already. Stacking Khorne units may make anti-tank weak, so Soulgrinders can help there. And at lower points they're less likely to get blown up / wrecked due to your opponent having less anti-tank units.

I wouldn't take a soulgrinder in any game over 2000 points just because they can become a really big target that is easier to take down than a multi-wound daemon prince (agree comes down to preference, I suppose).

That SC bloodthirster (skarbrand) can do fine in slaanesh heavy list.
With high Iniative of slaanesh daemons you will be likely to strike first and take most out of those rerolls.
I guess you could use him with khorne but that is more risky IMO.
Just dave told just about everything else. But IMO GUO is good too, just becouse its so cheap.
And I have been wondering..... What wargear tzeench herald needs?

-unforgiven-

the unforgiven wrote:
And I have been wondering..... What wargear tzeench herald needs?

Chariot and Bolt is pretty standard i think really.

If your going into competitive lists go for:

-fateweaver/bloodthirstier and skulltaker with the masque (you can have 3 HQ s in demons army as long as two of them are heralds).

-3 soul grinders( DP are alright but you can have better).

-at least 1 squad of pink horrors with the changeling (his rules are unbelievable for a 5pt upgrade), and have bloodletters with plaguebearers (use the plagues like a meat shield as the letters can't assault on the turn they arrive).

Hope your army go's well.

happygolucky wrote:
-fateweaver/bloodthirstier and skulltaker with the masque (you can have 3 HQ s in demons army as long as two of them are heralds).

You can actually have 4, the heralds take up 1/2 a slot. But no Greater Daemon then.

rodgers37 wrote:

happygolucky wrote:
-fateweaver/bloodthirstier and skulltaker with the masque (you can have 3 HQ s in demons army as long as two of them are heralds).

You can actually have 4, the heralds take up 1/2 a slot. But no Greater Daemon then.

Aye I see

Also blood crushers are ok but they lack movement so IMHO get 2 squads of seekers and, a bloodcrusher unit that way you could use the seekers as an escort for the blood crushers.

(somehow I feel that im going to get lectured on my tactics).

Yeah, i don't think all Bloodcrushers works. They are tough and killy. But Fiends and Seekers provide speed and lots of attacks. Seekers are good because they have grenades, which for some unknown reason Fiends lack them (all Slaanesh units get them, or have access to them in DP case...), but Feinds are better for killing tanks. So both have a purpose, and both work well with Bloodcrushers i think.

I believe, the fatecrusher build did move on from Fateweaver and just bloodcrushers, and did add Fiends/Seekers.

For Fatecrusher

It generally runs
Fateweaver
Bloodthirster or 2 shooty heralds
2 Kitted out Crusher Squads
1-2 Fiend squads
3 Daemon princes ( wings are pricey but you want them)

They tend to run light on troops using nurgle troops and horrors

Yeah, all Crushers just doesn't work if you want to play a little competitive.

But if your meta allows it (lots of Marine players) go for it.

A small Daemons Tactica, I hope this is of some help:

Unit selection
(The units worth taking IMO)

HQ

Fateweaver – brilliant. Worth his points cost even without the Oracle of Eternity power. With it: it’s absolutely imbalanced. It changes the way you play your Daemons. Your big disadvantage: ‘dropping in half of your army against the opponents and hoping something survives his shooting before the second wave comes’ is suddenly a whole lot less frightening.
When taking Fateweaver don’t take Soulgrinders, they gain nothing. Fateweaver has great synergy with Tzeentch Princes, Bloodcrushers and other Greater Daemons. Use it.

Skarbrand – nice! Although, unlike using Fateweaver you have to make sure the rest of your list is very well tuned to his Rage Embodied special rule. Use Skarbrand with Keeper of Secrets, Fiends, Daemonettes and Bloodletters, Hounds and Seekers to get the best results.

Keeper of Secrets – great option. Naked or with Musk. The rest is often not worth the points. For Pavene you want a Daemon Prince for its BS5. Keep it cheep as possible.

Great Unclean One – the poor mans Monster. Only 165 points (it comes with CoF standard) for T6 W5 4++ FNP. And to boot it wounds on 2+ (often rerolled) and has a decent amount of attacks and WS. S6 + 2d6 may well open tanks. The Slowness is not too bad. As an MC it has move through cover doesn’t it? Use your run moves!

Bloodthirster – Yeah, bring it! Nothing stands against this in CC. Give it Blessing for 5 pnts. Some give it Might as well. To me that’s a luxury only used in 2k+ battles, and even then...

Epidemius – only in Tally lists (see below)

The Blue Scribes – cool. It’s an IC (and can thus hide in a squad). Moves like jump infantry. Has a variety of special powers and can use two a turn. It’s offers flexibility. As such it can be a valuable tool.

Skulltaker – meh. Yes it’s great and very killy. But it costs an arm and a leg! It has the same problem as all Khorne Heralds: when you have a Bloodcrusher at 40 points, why on earth do you need to spend that much on a model that’s hardly that much more killy. IMO don’t take it. Just take more Crushers if you think you’re not packing enough heat already.

Herald of Tzeentch – Yep. Costs 100 – 110 points. Has Chariot, Bolt and MoS. Maybe 10 points more for Legion. Kills tanks, moves fast, is sturdy. Whats not to like.

Herald of Slaanesh – UberFiend. Give it a Chariot and Might for a whooping 75 points. 7 S5 attacks on the charge @ I8 and Rending. 5 wounds with T4 4+/5++ and moves as a beast. This thing should be easy to use LoS blocking terrain and still get a charge next turn.

Elites

Fiends – The best choice in the Codex. Use 5-6, give Might if you have the points. Use range on deepstrike to give them cover / LoS blockers. Then use their incredible range to put pressure on either flank.

Bloodcrushers – Yes, great. Typical squad costs 200 points for 4 diversified Crushers that also provide the 1 or 2 Icons in your list. They offer killingpower and sturdyness. Sure they are slow, but with their big bases they do have a rather large threatrange.

Flamers – Used them, but now I don’t anymore. Just too fragile for their points for me. I’ve still included them because YMMV.

Troops

Bloodletters – relatively cheap powerweapons on Furious Charge Marines. Gieb! They will get shot though, so either use the MSU idea of bringing 4-6 units of 5-8 each or use a larger unit (10+). If the rest of your list has enough threats they may get through because of their relatively low spot on the prioritylist. They will do damage in that case!

Daemonettes – Speedy! Speed is one of the most important abilities on Daemons. They mitigate the impact of a bad scatter, tie up enemies so the slower stuff can approach and generally make sure you put on enough pressure. Daemonettes will die if sneezed at though. Either take 6 for a cheap scoring unit that still has possibilities and flexibility or take 12+. Daemonettes work well in an MSU list IMO.

Horrors - because of the Changeling. I always use 1 unit of Horrors with Bolt and Changeling for 100 points. I however never use more than this. This is just preference. They are usefull, I just prefer getting my stuff locked in combat where Horrors don’t have a place. However, when you are using more than 3 troopschoices, please take these over Plaguebearers.

Plaguebearers – necessity? I see Plaguebearers spammed a lot in lists on Dakka. I wonder why. I use them too, but for only one reason: I want to get away with using 3 minimumsized troopschoices. When you take 4-6 troops, don’t take Plaguebearers. They do nothing. The only thing they do is sit on objectives and not die. You want to use all of your units to deal damage. Plaguebearers are not good at this. However, as I said: when you’re making a 1500 – 1850 points list and you want to spend as much points as possible on the superb HQ, Elites and Heavy sections: take 2x5 Plaguebearers and the Horror squad I mentioned before, and you have enough troops choices when you play it well… That’s what Plaguebearers are for. (Oh, and for Tally-lists)

Fast Attack

Flesh Hounds – Underrated! 8-10 for 120-150 points. They’re great. In the time of MSU Rhino/Razorback/Venom spam, Hounds can be your expandible canopeners with a high threatrange. Cheap enough to use for a coversave, sturdy enough to tie something up, fast enough to get there. What are armies will you struggle against as a Daemons player? Grey Knights of course, as well as Dark/Light Eldar. Against these lists Hounds of Khorne can be great while not being too measly against other armies either. Try them out.

Seekers – Almost as good. I use them because an easy to hide, low on prioritylists, still pretty killy unit of 6 costs 102 points. Otherwise I prefer Hounds. There are lists in which (and against which) they shine though.

Screamers – well… I like a unit of 3. Maybe 4. Small, may do something, but will contest that objective on turn5 with a turboboost move. That alone makes them usefull.

Heavy Support

Prince – Yeah. I take 3 every time. There are 2 – 3 flavors IMO:
160 Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze
215 Prince, MoN, IH, Flight, CoF, NT
145/155 Prince, MoS, IH, Musk/Pavane, AoA
Don’t let them get too expensive!

Soulgrinder – it has an AV… The only one in the codex. That makes for a very chancy selection IMO. Still AV13 does have its moments and it can kill bigtime.

Typically I really like thinking outside of the box and using weird units/mixing up a variation of different units. However, the units not listed above have some difficulty getting decent results from (given the pointscost) or are less optimised. YMMV and if you use different selections that the ones mentioned to great success, please share your thoughts.


Typical types of lists

Fateweaver+
a Greater Daemon/Heralds of Tzeentch, Bloodcrushers/Fiends, minimal troops, 3 Princes.
Most allround, tried and tested. Very valid tournament-list.

Tzeentch-heavy:
3-4 Heralds of Tzeentc, Fiends/Crushers (/Flamers), 5-6 squads of minimal Horrors w Bolt, Screamers, 3 Princes.
Moar Dakka… Some on these boards have done very well with lists like this.

Khorne Heavy:
Bloodthirsters, Crushers, Letters, HOUNDS!, Soulgrinders.
IMO you need Hounds in a list like this because you lack speed. Fiends fit well too. Soulgrinders may actually be better than Princes here because you need some shooting vs AV-targets.

Slaanesh Heavy:
Potentially high modelcount. Fast, Killy! At 2500 points I like the idea of something like this:
2KoS, 18 Fiends, 72 Daemonettes, 30 Seekers.  Skarbrand is best used in a list like this strange enough…

Nurgle Heavy:
Tally list. Bonestructure: GUO, Epidemius, 1x14+3x7 Plaguebearers, 3 Nurgle Princes (as above). This list could use Herald of Tzeentch, Screamers, Horrors w. Bolt, Fiends at higher points levels.

MSU-Daemons:
3-4 Heralds (of Tzeentch mostly, Slaanesh will work as well), 3-6Fiends/3-4Crushers, 6 squads of Horrors/Bloodletters/Daemonettes, 3 squads of Fast units, 1-2 Princes to engange the heavier targets.
Keep the squads relatively cheap and small, make sure you have as many units as possible. This is a list where I'd value having 2 Icons higher than in other lists.

Typically when building Daemon lists:

- Ask yourself if you want 4-5 MC’s or more models in the form of Heralds and bigger troopschoices.
- Don’t spent points on more than 2 Icons. 1 is often enough. You don’t NEED Icons.
- Watch units with a huge footprint (8 Crushers, 20+troops/fastattack). A mishap is much more likely and dangerous with something like that.
- Make sure you have enough speed and flexibility in your list.
- Also, make sure you have a lot of Big threats or an MSU-theme to saturate incoming fire. Because Daemons have to come on board with 50% of the list, this is even more important than with other armies. This is exactly why Fateweaver lists are popular.
- When you do have speed and flexibility, don’t spend 60 points on flight for Princes. They are fast enough considering you’ll drop them relatively close ideally and considering you can box in the opponent/back him up against a table-edge or into a corner.

Deployment

Deploy aggressively. You’ll beat the opposing army in combat 90% of the time. So unless you face one of the lists in that 10% (Some GK’s, DoA BA, some Tyranid, some Orks) don’t worry about receiving the charge. Do worry about having to weather more than one turn of the enemies fire.

Use the fact that your army uses DS and run units after deploying. Use cover, deploy heavy on one flank, minimize lanes of fire that your opponent can use against you, etc.

An MSU mounted list is popular these days. These types of lists can suffer from the parking-lot syndrome. Use this to your advantage. Example:

______XX_XX
______XXX_XX

X=Rhino/Razoback

When this is your opponents deployment, don’t deploy in front of him but always to one side:

_______XX_XX____DD
__(D)__XXX_XX___DDD
______________DD

X=Rhino/Razoback
D=Daemon

This way you ideally take the 4 most left vehicles out of the fight for a turn. You could deploy one unit (Screamers, Horrors or a Herald of Tzeentch) on the left flank as a distraction. This may further help avoid having to weather a whole armies worth of fire on units that are more important to you.

Targetpriority

Easy: kill transports at range if at all possible, so you can charge the juicy bits inside and stay locked in combat.

Stuff that can actually hurt you in combat has to be dealt with on your terms. Only charge a Dreadknight, HiveTyrant/Swarmlord, Thunderwolf-unit etc. with so many units at once that you’ll definitely kill it and only have to take casualties that turn and not for 3 turns on end. Either that or try to lock units like that in combat with a relatively disposable unit.

Fear stuff like large blocks of Genestealers and use cover to abuse the fact that they don’t have grenades. Dito with units of 30 Ork Boys. Using 5 Fiends against them may not be the best use of those Fiends. Either charge a squad like that with multiple units at once or trie to avoid it while chewing on smaller morsels like that squad of 5 Lootas/3 Koptas / 7 Commando’s.

Only experience can teach you what to fear from the enemy and what not. Likewise you’ll learn to recognize what needs to live in your list to remain a threat. You’ll learn how to protect those units and how to use them best.

Scaling

A lot of talk these days about 'Ard boys and Daemon lists in those on Dakka. I strongly advocate the validity of Daemons as a tournament-list. However, I do doubt the way Daemons scale in higher point value tournaments. Example: take this Fateweaver list (it's my 1700 points tournament list)

333 Kairos Fateweaver
165 Great Unclean One, Cloud of Flies
200 4 Bloodcrushers of Khorne, everything
180 6 Fiends of Slaanesh
100 5 Pink Horrors, Bolt, Changeling
75 5 Plaguebearers
75 5 Plaguebearers
102 6 Seekers of Slaanesh
160 Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze
160 Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze
150 Daemon Prince, MoS, Iron Hide, Pavane

at 2500 points I would do this:

333 Kairos Fateweaver
255 Bloodthirster, BotBG, Might
200 4 Bloodcrushers of Khorne, everything
190 6 Fiends of Slaanesh, Might
190 6 Fiends of Slaanesh, Might
100 5 Pink Horrors, Bolt, Changeling
128 8 Bloodletters
128 8 Bloodletters
168 12 Daemonettes
150 10 Hounds of Khorne
102 6 Seekers of Slaanesh
160 Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze
160 Daemon Prince, MoT, Bolt, Gaze
215 Daemon Prince, MoN, Iron Hide, Flight, CoF, NT
2499

What has happened? Two of my MC have become a bigger threat, I've gained a unit of Fiends and a unit of Flesh Hounds and my Troops are more and more killy. The core of the list however, 5 MC's/Fiends/Crushers still has the same survivability against at 2500 as it did at 1700, the opposing list has a lot more firepower however. At 1700/1750 Daemons peek I think. They fit everything they need and have the density to overload opponents. At 2500 the density drops, mostly due to the fact that your opponent probably has 50% more guns compared to his 1700 points list, while you don't suddenly have 7 MC's for instance.


Anyway: a lot of this stuff is obvious of course and may seem like I preach like a Kindergarden-teacher. Well this is true of course because I’m an annoying person like that. But on the other hand, it can really be this simple. Daemons may require some getting used to, but I’ve seldom felt like I had no chance at all with my Daemons. This contrary to previous armies I’ve played with. (Although Null Zone does suck…)


Cilithan

Cilithan YOU MADE AN EPIC POST! WIN! TY FOR THE INFO!

Back when Terra was called 'earth' I played Daemons IMHO what you need is Bloodletters and Plagubearers. Bloodletters are they only thing that will literally mash up your opponents. Plague bearers are just good for objectives of tough meat shields Anyway hope this helped

That info is truly epic. Thank you very much.

So for transports the old Rumble and Frenzy tactic of "First we crack the shell, then we crack the nuts inside".


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Why is Fateweaver so special? I just don't see why he's so good.

Fateweaver:

- Can use 3 abilities on 3 targets each turn (2 for being a MC + 1 for having MoS). Typically he would use Bolt + Breath + Gaze/Boon. This makes him a very flexible ranged specialist.

- Has a 3++ save T5 and 3 wnds. This makes him fairly tough.

- Has flight which makes him move as jump infantry which gives some tactical benefits, he can use his abilities where needed.

Most important:

- Oracle of Eternity:

All Daemon-units within 6" of Fateweaver (including Fateweaver) re-roll all saves (Armour, Cover and Invulnerable).

This makes Fateweaver himself very tough: All wounds (against T5) must pas a 3++ rerolled. So each wound only has 11% chance to cause an unsaved wound.
Example: 3 squads of Long Fangs with 4 Missile Launchers each shooting at Fateweaver. 12 ML shots, 8 hits, 6,6 wounds, 0,7 unsaved wounds. Now, if a wound is caused, Fateweaver has to pass a Ld9 check or flee from the board. He has 6/36 or 1/6 or 16% chance to fail this (so 83% chance to pass). I think most people will agree 3 squads of Long Fangs is a lot of firepower, still Fateweaver has a good chance to walk away completely unscathed or with 1 wound down. Mostly it will take a very shooty army firing for 1-2 turns to reliably kill Fateweaver.

Sure your opponent can avoid him, but then he faces about 2-4 other squads that receive his reroll. Which is an incredible force multiplier.

What Fateweaver does is soak up fire. In the example given, of course the first Long Fang squad has a chance to cause a wound and to send Fateweaver running. This chance however is very small. Ordinarily your opponent will poor his shooting turn 1 on Fateweaver and maybe cause him to die. What didn't die is the rest of your first wave which can now engage the enemy on your terms. This is what makes Fateweaver good. He's the most reliable distraction Daemons have. By the time he dies, the damage should allready have been done in that the other Daemons walk amongst the enemies ranks.

Cilithan

Great post, Cili! And yes, Null Zone is very helpful vs Daemons

So Fateweaver with either another GD or two Tzeentch Heralds on Chariots with Bolt as HQ.

Am I right in thinking that the other tank busters are Princes with Bolt? Wings or no wings?

Cilithan wrote:
Fiends – The best choice in the Codex. Use 5-6, give Might if you have the points. Use range on deepstrike to give them cover / LoS blockers. Then use their incredible range to put pressure on either flank.

Is making one guy one point stronger ever worth it?

A tip.Always make sure the first part of your army is all Tzeentch.They are the only units that can shoot,and as they can't assault,this is good.In planetstrike,make sure all the first section is a Khornate force,as in planetskrike they can assault.

Just started a Daemons army myself earlier this week..what a great post to happen upon. I'll join everyone else in thanking Cilithan for his detailed post.

Talked me into picking up some Fiends. Now I've got to try and find them for less than $22.25 a model (:0)

Glad to see someone enthusiastically shunning the Soulgrinder for Princes. I'm looking forward to customizing four Princes, one for each Chaos God, and would much rather use them over the Soulgrinder (don't like the model at all, for one thing).

I noticed the DP with MoK wasn't mentioned...is he just not worth it compared to the other Prince options? Seems like an extra attack would be worth it when most every attack will kill...not to mention the usefulness of BotBG against GK.

I don't think MoK DP are worth it at all.

The MoS, MoN and MoT ones are worth it.

The advice for all Tzeentch in 1st wave is pretty good, but also add in there any MC or Bloodcrushers too.

Not a good idea.They can't assault.Give the Tzeentchians Icons and deep strtike close to them.Then shoot again and assault next turn.Soften them up.


Of coarse MCs are a good Idea.Use DPs with MoT and/or Fateweaver.



Of coarse,if you get the wrong section,you are in deep .

DakkaDakka wrote:

I have faced pure khorne, mixed with slaanesh, mixed with tzeentch, mixed with nurgle.

Overall the unit I hate the most are fiends. Troop choices really depends on your opponent and what you are trying to accomplish. Getting an icon out there to survive means a + to pink horrors for their 4++ save or plaguebearers for T5 and FNP. For pure killiness I like bloodletters and daemonettes with a small plus to daemonettes. Once in combat, the bloodletters are awesome but daemonettes can get into any combat quicker because of fleet and while they are not as awesome in HTH, their initiative plus the volume of attacks means they will still do some damage due to rending.

As far as leaders I really like the keeper of secrets they are more awesome than a khorne deamon and they go first almost always.

I personnally don't like taking soul grinders because they are the only vehicle in the army and thus susceptible to any lascannons or multi-meltas the opponent brings but that is a matter of personnal choice.

I think the key is finding the amount of daemons (troops) you want to have and what kind as that is going to set the tone of your army.

Nurgle + Slaanesh hard hitting and fast. Nurgle to hold the objectives means very tough for opponent to knock off.

Slaanesh + Khorne slaanesh will keep them busy until the khorne stuff comes in and slaughters them

Tzeentch + Khorn/Slaanesh Tzeentch to PO your opponent with harassing fire and sit on objectives while your Khone and Slaanesh stuff assembles and swamps your opponent.

The only thing I would not do as a starting point is go pure anything. Any type on its own is going to amplify its weaknesses.

Khorne - too slow and overpriced unless we are talking a TEQ/MEQ opponent.

Slaanesh - fast but brittle lacks the punch to just dominate an opponent.

Tzeentch - Will do fine early when at range but suffers too much from being exposed to enemy close assaults if on their own.

Nurgle - slow and plodding. Poison is great for troop killing but nurgle will suffer against a mechanized opponent.

Great posts Cilithan, exalted both of them.
As a result, I've also recommended this thread for the

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327831.page wrote:Dakka tactics archive

.

Puscifer wrote:I don't think MoK DP are worth it at all.

The MoS, MoN and MoT ones are worth it.

Could you briefly explain why you think this?

Che-Vito wrote:
Bloodletters -> when placed correctly, usually earn their points back
Daemonettes -> usually do not earn their points back, can shine in specific situations

I thought we were assuming the current edition of rules where a unit "making its points back" is entirely irrelevant.