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So, I just started playing recently--I played many different (proxy) armies and have settled on CSM, as I like playing their fluff the best.



All of the tacticas I've read regarding Chaos seem to agree on one thing as an absolute.

"Demon Princes are amazing. They should have Wings and a Lash, every time, all of the time. You should probably also get two."

---My first issue, is that as I'm still getting into the 'swing of things' as it were, I'm not 100% confidant about my ability to use a Lash Prince well tactically.


---The second issue (and now we get to the title of the thread) is that my main opponent plays Space Wolves--and gosh darn if he doesn't love his psyker negating Rune-Priests.
I've tried to power through them, and once or twice in our games I've gotten a spell off successfully. But by in large getting psykers ends up just feeling like a waste of points that I could be investing in better heavy support or an alternative HQ.

---------------------
Here are my thoughts on some units and would love to hear some feedback/alternatives.



HQ Alternatives

Kharn - I used to use him because a friend of mine bought me the model--he's almost always paid for himself twice over taking Rhinos, Razorbacks, a Wolf Lord (once) and pesky Long Fangs out.
Also I mean---it's Kharn c'mon. In addition he's immune to Jaws of the World Wolf...which is a huge issue for me.
But at 165 points he's already in the price range of a winged DP, and doesn't have eternal warrior.


Khornite Demon Prince - for 140 give him a MoK and Wings. Nothing fancy here.


Chaos Lord of Khorne - 160
Give him MoK, Daemonic Steed (Khorne) and a Pair of Lightning claws.
He's rerolling failed to wounds and getting an awful lot of attacks (more than the DP and just as many as Kharn). I feel that the re-rolls also make up for not having Warptime.

Big downside is insta-death from Powerfists or lascannons. Best to put him in a squad of what? 'Zerkers?

I might throw a personal icon on him so that he could DS in Lesser Daemons to give him more cushion. (Puts his price to Kharn's)



Daemonic Chaos Lord - 170
Mok, Daemonic Steed (Khorne) and a basic daemon weapon for +1 Str and +d6 attacks.
The difference here is I don't get to re-roll failed to wounds. But I do get the benefits of a daemon weapon. However the possibility of rolling 1's is...daunting.


I've considered some Tzeentch type Chaos Lords, but the only real benefit is +1 Invulnerable saves.

---

Other than that do you all have any better suggestions? Running anything that can cast spells just seems like a waste of points because of the rune priests.



Heavy Support

I can't seem to decide on anything here. I'm facing again-mainly Space Wolves. He has a lot of vehicles so I'm thinking anti-tank would be best.

Predators - 165
Right now I'm leaning towards dumping around 165 points on tri-lascannon Predators.


Obliterators - 225
They seem to change in usefulness for me. My main issue is that they're so damn killable. For less points I can get just as many lascannons on the Predators.
Granted Obliterators have amazing versatility.

Vindicators
Worth it? I've never used them so I'd love some input.

Defilers
Not sure if these things are worth their salt despite how fearsome they look, what do you all think?




Elites

Chosen - Around 155
Against Space wolves I'm leaning towards infiltrating squads of 5 Chosen with Meltaguns.
And I'm unsure--can I infiltrate them in a rhino? (does it then become outflanking? Is that extra protection worth it?)
I'm probably also going to try and have them call in a Greater Daemon. The early disruption against Space Wolves strikes me as important.


Terminators
Unless I'm buying them for their Land Raider....I honestly find them very lackluster units. Perhaps someone could inform me otherwise? The +2 armor really doesn't do much.


Possessed
No.



Troops

Bezerkers
'Zerkers? How many? Think it'd be good to throw 9 in a Rhino with an HQ (Kharn or Chaos Lord)? Or would it be better to get a maximum troops size of them and rush them across the field? Again, think Space Wolves, think rune-priests, think tanks.

Noise Marines
I've been contemplating this for a while and would love an opinion...

Putting squads of Noise Marines with a Blastmaster and Doomsiren in a Rhino seems like an awfully powerful force. But it also costs upwards of 300 points to deck them all out. But that Doomsiren/Blastmaster option set could make up for dealing with swarms if my heavy list is Lascannons.


I can't even consider Thousand Sons.


Plague Marines
Widely considered the best--I just don't like them. They can still insta-die and don't have the cool factor for me.

Vanilla CSM
Pros, cons?
I can give one a Lascannon... (I've been told that fun in 40k is directly proportional to the amount of Lascannons you have on the field.)


--------

Thank you all in advanced for your input.




To restate:

Fighting Space Wolves
Gosh darned Rune-Priests, ruining my fun.
Burn, Maim, Kill.

Personal opinion is diversify and come at him like abbadon. In 13 waves of crazy crap.
Heavy support: 3 oblits, one defiler, one vindicator. The oblits deepstrike in and take out a tank. The defiler and vindicator have one job: making him pick which of his diversified thunderwolves go back in the box once they fail a wound.

Elites. Those chosen? Infiltrate two squads in the rhinos you buy them. Suck it up and take a squad of termies with combi meltas. They come with an incredibly sweet ride they'll never use.
Troops, fill that raider up with zerkers. Fill a rhino
With zerkers and drive it right behind the raider. These guys are headed for adventure! 3 groups of 7 plague marines with 2 meltas are boring, but they will be boring for a while. The last troop squad is for regular csm , as many as you can. Don't mind the smell. It's tar.

As for hq, demon princes vs space wolves is going to introduce you to long fangs. You'll cry, and wish you had those 340 points back, but they will be gone.
Sorcerers though...

Remember that Rune Priests can take a chosen wargear that prevents infiltrating within 18" of a marker. If he takes 2 RPs it shuts down infiltrating on an entire half of the boards.

Sup Texas

My Friend runs 2x Lash DP with Wings

even without the use of lash roughly 1/2 the time they're still a menace. You just have to saturate more than he can shoot.

IMO Preds are amazing auto cannon top, Las sponsons
or a Vindi with Posession ignoring 1's and 2's is hot and it's BS doesnt matter as much.

I love the versatility of oblits but they do die fairly easily

Normal Chaos Marines with IoCG typically a PF upgrade possibly a lascannon or MSL , depends on what you want them to do.

rush0312 wrote:Remember that Rune Priests can take a chosen wargear that prevents infiltrating within 18" of a marker. If he takes 2 RPs it shuts down infiltrating on an entire half of the boards.

Sup Texas

Hey man, you snooping tactics for Thursday? I might get that defiler after all.
I'll call you out on the fact that chooser of the slain rules say "AN army" may place "A marker", so I would only take two of those if the +1 WS you get is really important to you.
Check YMDC and the Inat FAQ.

Generally, Sorcerors are better than Princes for LoS. For the same price as a Lash Prince, you can get a Sorceror with a Warp Time Familiar, MoS, and Lash. If you run double Sorcerors one will probably get Lash off.

Oblits are very resilient you just need to learn how to use them. The things that kill them are S8+ AP2 weapons. They tend to laugh at Krak Missiles. The trick is to keep them out of LOS of things that are going to InstaGib them. Here's the deal: they're SnP which means that they're Relentless. So you start them right behind a wall of BLOS terrain, then when it's your turn, walk them through the wall (this is legal with ruins) and fire away.

Darligulv wrote: All of the tacticas I've read regarding Chaos seem to agree on one thing as an absolute.

"Demon Princes are amazing. They should have Wings and a Lash, every time, all of the time. You should probably also get two."

two daemon princes, yes. Two lash princes? pffft. Spartan prince (Wings/warptime, no mark) is the way to go, especially over that horrible MoK/Wings prince. Even with a runepriest on the table, I'd rather a 50% chance to reroll hits and wounds than an extra attack.

Darligulv wrote:Khornite Demon Prince - for 140 give him a MoK and Wings. Nothing fancy here.

Khorne princes... they suck you get +1 attack and lose all spellcasting abilities. Considering 2 of the other marks allow you to take more punishment, and you can get warptime still... khorne princes really just aren't worth it.

Darligulv wrote:
Chaos Lord of Khorne - 160
Give him MoK, Daemonic Steed (Khorne) and a Pair of Lightning claws.
He's rerolling failed to wounds and getting an awful lot of attacks (more than the DP and just as many as Kharn). I feel that the re-rolls also make up for not having Warptime.

Big downside is insta-death from Powerfists or lascannons. Best to put him in a squad of what? 'Zerkers?

I might throw a personal icon on him so that he could DS in Lesser Daemons to give him more cushion. (Puts his price to Kharn's)




Daemonic Chaos Lord - 170
Mok, Daemonic Steed (Khorne) and a basic daemon weapon for +1 Str and +d6 attacks.
The difference here is I don't get to re-roll failed to wounds. But I do get the benefits of a daemon weapon. However the possibility of rolling 1's is...daunting.

Yes he will get insta-deathed. And what squad are you going to put him in, since he cannot ride in a transport they will be walking across the board. One or two battlecannon shots and his bodyguard will evaporate- one or two lascannons later, he will evaporate.

Darligulv wrote:
Other than that do you all have any better suggestions? Running anything that can cast spells just seems like a waste of points because of the rune priests.

Spartan prince. You're not relying on spells- your DP is simply a beatstick. with the runepriest around, he will be a beatstick that rerolls hits and wounds 50% of the time.

Darligulv wrote:
Predators - 165
Right now I'm leaning towards dumping around 165 points on tri-lascannon Predators.

Please don't! Its too much of a points sink! You will get MUCH more mileage out of a AC/Las predator. Great for shooting down targets in the 10-12 range, and IIRC SW only have HS vehicles (LR, Vindi's and preds) with an AV of 13, which you're going to see a max of 3. so if he has lots of vehicles he's bound to have some rhino's/razorbacks/pods/dreads/speeders. The AC/Las pred loves to shoot allll of them

Darligulv wrote:

Obliterators - 225
They seem to change in usefulness for me. My main issue is that they're so damn killable. For less points I can get just as many lascannons on the Predators.
Granted Obliterators have amazing versatility.

2 wounds 2+ 5++ is "so damn killable"? And oblits aren't about lascannons. Its about the plasmaguns/cannons vs the space wolves. If you can get any marine squad out of cover and sling a plasmacannon shot on them...as a marine player I'll just say it friggin' hurts BAD. Plus they have lascannons for long range anti vehicle if you really need it. AND they have flamers for when you play against a horde army. AND they have meltaguns for close range anti-tank power. AND they can deepstrike. Here's a good trick- dont be afraid to deepstrike into difficult terrain. You only get a wound on a roll of 1, and you have a 5++ so you still get a save, and you've got two wounds anyway. Your chances of losing a wound is pretty small.

Darligulv wrote:

Vindicators
Worth it? I've never used them so I'd love some input.

I love them. The str10 scares units with t4/5 and multiple wounds (TWC, Nobs, Ork warbosses, Ogryns, Tyranid warriors...), even cheap guardsmen can be removed in handfuls at a time. Can go anti-tank if needed, str10 and 2d6 pick the best for penetration can be pretty good for tough nut vehicles. The downside is they draw fire quickly, and have one real weapon, so a weapon destroyed or immobilized result can really hamper its potential. I've found they work best in groups of 2-3


I've run out of time to type this all up but before I got I will point out that if your friend is running lots of vehicles, especially if they are rhino's/razorbacks, I am disappointed you appear to not have considered havocs. 4 AC or 2AC 2ML havocs just anti-transport firepower.

^ fantastic drugs?
Sw have vehicles in elites, fast, and heavy just like everyone else...
Any dp vs space wolves is gonna get blown up by longfangs. Spartan, lash, or smiley face.
... You have a good point on the havocs.

Texas Instrument wrote:^ fantastic drugs?
Sw have vehicles in elites, fast, and heavy just like everyone else...
Any dp vs space wolves is gonna get blown up by longfangs. Spartan, lash, or smiley face.
... You have a good point on the havocs.

Yes, but where are their vehicles with armor above 13? All in the HS. Therefore, unless you take the one landraider allowed as a WG transport, your going to get a max of 3 of them in a SW list. So what drugs are YOU on?

and uhhh... any Chaos HQ is going to get "blown up" by space wolves. Your foot slogging ones will, your rhino mounted sorc's will lose their transport to those very same long fangs, any lord or sorc in a landraider can very easily get drop pod/land speeder multimelta'd. Nothing is invincible. You might as well say any DP vs marines is going to get blown up by Typhoons, as they spam the missiles in shooty marine lists.

Ironclad dreamought man... ( inhale noises) ...
I'm telling you maaaan... This av 13 stuff is fantastic...
It's in the ... (bubbling) ... Aww hell it's in the elites section.
And to top it off?

They have av 13 in the HQ block.
The HQ block.

Now on to your assertion that a sorc in a block of 20 plague marines is gonna be blown up by longfangs as easily as a 4 wound demon prince that cant join a unit?

.... Really?
No, really?

Please don't make incorrect statements, and thenmake even whackier statements when called on it.
I'm on a drug called information. This Internet thing is wild, man.
Totally wild.

Texas Instrument wrote: Ironclad dreamought man... ( inhale noises) ...
I'm telling you maaaan... This av 13 stuff is fantastic...
It's in the ... (bubbling) ... Aww hell it's in the elites section.

Not in my 'dex. I remember something about an errata and ironclads awhile ago, but I cannot find it from the SW FAQ. If you could point out where GW have said SW can take ironclads (since your on this information drug ), please point it out, as I would love to field Ironclads in my SW army!

Texas Instrument wrote:And to top it off?

They have av 13 in the HQ block.
The HQ block.

Because soooo many armies feature Bjorn

Texas Instrument wrote:
Now on to your assertion that a sorc in a block of 20 plague marines is gonna be blown up by longfangs as easily as a 4 wound demon prince that cant join a unit?

.... Really?
No, really?

Yeah, 1-2 vindi shells should do the trick!

Texas Instrument wrote:
Please don't make incorrect statements, and thenmake even whackier statements when called on it.
I'm on a drug called information. This Internet thing is wild, man.
Totally wild.

So I'm totally lacking in the information on how SW can take Ironclads, and I forgot about a named character providing more AV13. My point was that the majority of armor that the OP is likely to face against his SW friend who has "lots of vehicles" is going to be in the AV10-12 range. Whats with the uhhh aggressive posts? Having a bad day ?

...

Really?

One or two vindi shells if they're all giving eachother a big nurgle hug?
Sw can take ironclads, I assure you.

It's not my codex either, but I've got a copy of this great new product called google.
It's working out great for my totally mellow information high.
Your friend, mr Billy Goatsgruff.

Darligulv wrote:
All of the tacticas I've read regarding Chaos seem to agree on one thing as an absolute.

"Demon Princes are amazing. They should have Wings and a Lash, every time, all of the time. You should probably also get two."

---My first issue, is that as I'm still getting into the 'swing of things' as it were, I'm not 100% confidant about my ability to use a Lash Prince well tactically.

This is not true.. I have found that one lash prince and one Tzeentch/Nurlge Warptime prince is optimal. The warptime prince is a wrecking ball. You can sorta hide your lash prince behind you rhino parking lot while the Warptime prince becomes a seek and destroy missile. What does he shoot at? Well most opponents will want to kill the lash prince... but if you shove a prince in their throte they will want to take it out. If they ignore the warptime prince he can very easily rampage around their lines....

And to prove my theory I just won the local Ard Boyz with a Tzeentch warptime prince and a Lash Prince.. and I can easily say my Tzeentch Prince out preformed the lash prince 2 outa 3 games... In this tourny i went against 2 missile spam space wolves as well...

Another thing, if you want to make an optimal competative chaos army you want 3 squads of 2 oblits as your heavies.. HANDS DOWN... Plauge marines are ok, I hate nurgly So i run regular CSM and do just fine... I find that 1-2 3man terminator squad with Chainfist, 2Combi-Meltas, and reaper autocannon are amazing if used right... Drop them in the middle of your rhino rush... they can nuke a tank the turn they drop then rampage around if left alone...

Zerkers, I run 7-8 with a powerfist or powerweapon and Icon for teleport homer... Drop em in a rhino
Plauge Marines, If I ran em I would run 5-7 with 2meltas and icon as a shock troop. Rush up and pop a tank hoping for a countercharge.. hold a squad so you can counter with zerkerz or a prince.
Noise Marines, wait till next codex
Thousand Sons, I use these a lot. 9 guys with Bolt of Tzeench in a rhino.. Can take pop shots vs tanks and hop out and rapid fire marines to death.

But My favorite Troop, CSM, I run 3 Squads of 10guys, Icon of Chaos Glory, 2xmelta/plasma in a rhino (215/225 pts) they dont need a champ cause they got 9LD and the icon. 40pt powerfists are not worth it... Spend those points on an actuall CC squad like zerkers...

Elites. I only ever use termies.. at 2k and below its 2 termicide squads with 2x meltas, chainfist, reaper autocannon. 2k+ i will add my Slaanesh Liughtning Claw termies in a rhino

Fast... bah...

Texas Instrument wrote:...

Really?

One or two vindi shells if they're all giving eachother a big nurgle hug?
Sw can take ironclads, I assure you.

It's not my codex either, but I've got a copy of this great new product called google.
It's working out great for my totally mellow information high.
Your friend, mr Billy Goatsgruff.

I've downloaded the SW Faq/errata from GW's website, and I haven't come across anything about ironclads(This one for reference). Also have used the great product that is google, and found discussions on forums, dakka and others, with people talking about taking Ironclads in SW lists, and people asking where it says they can use Ironclads. The posters in those threads have pointed to the SW FAQ. So how about you point me in the right direction so we can move the discussion onwards? Or are you going to continue acting like a childish ?

Thank you OneMeanDuck and Jihallah for the in deptch replies and reviews. (and everyone else for the responses)

I'm certainly going to reconsider my initial impressions. A lot I'm realizing comes out of how you handle a unit as opposed to it's stats. (...As though this were some sort of tactical game....)

Warptime is absolutely fantastic...
For those of you using DP's does MoN bonus override the potential benefits gained from MoT's two powers?

And for those who do run Tzeentch Princes have you found either Gift of Chaos or Bolt of Change being particularly useful?

Texas,
There is much debate on RPs and chooser of the slain. Most people agree that you can take multiple CoS with multiple markers as the fluff states the chooser is bird that scouts for the said rune priest. I've run 2 RPs in tourneys with that rule and never had a challenge. The 'An army...' part is specifying IF you take the CoS, but does not prohibit multiple markers. I could not find a ruling in FAQs or your links saying otherwise as well.

The part that would seem to prohibit multiple markers is the " may place A marker" part.
The prevailing opinion in YMDC when I search for "chooser of the slain rule" is that it is in the singular. I'm gonna toss it back in there as a question and see what happens.

So much rules fail. Space Wolves do not get Ironclads. They may take Dreads and Venerables- that's it. Check your codex.

As to Chooser, again, read the rules- one marker. The benefit for multiples is the bonus to hitting with your PSAs.

As to CSM v. SWolves- good luck. CSM are pretty lame this go 'round. Use you Oblits/Vindis/Defilers to try to smoke those longfangs ASAP. Demon Princes tend to catch missiles to the face. Las/plas rb's also mess them up. And of course massed boltyers will also work. At least sorcs can hide in a squad. But RPs are great defense against Lash and can even shutdown Warp Time.

jmurph wrote:So much rules fail. Space Wolves do not get Ironclads. They may take Dreads and Venerables- that's it. Check your codex.

Really? Not doubting you, I really just want this confirmed with a big fat "yes" or "no", because as I mentioned before Ironclads in my SW list would make me very happy. For example, some folks on the internet are talking about SW Ironclads, but they refer to the 5th ed SW FAQ. I read it, and there ain't no mention of an Ironclad. Then we have folks like Texas Instrument and his "information high" who simply tells us to google it, and won't point out where he's getting his info from... he simply tells us "Sw can take ironclads, I assure you."

ahh it I'll make a YMDC thread >< which is here


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Texas Instrument wrote:Ironclad dreamought man... ( inhale noises) ...
I'm telling you maaaan... This av 13 stuff is fantastic...
It's in the ... (bubbling) ... Aww hell it's in the elites section.

Please don't make incorrect statements, and thenmake even whackier statements when called on it.
I'm on a drug called information. This Internet thing is wild, man.
Totally wild.

Texas Instrument wrote:
Sw can take ironclads, I assure you.

It's not my codex either, but I've got a copy of this great new product called google.
It's working out great for my totally mellow information high.
Your friend, mr Billy Goatsgruff.

Pass that mate. You must have been so damn high to post those headed hypocritical posts. Seriously pass that , it seems fantastic

I think we can drop the Space Wolf and Ironclad discussion now please. Thanks.

Obliterators All round. The only time mine die is when the enemy realises that they are causing the most havoc

Small terminator units with combi-plasma are pretty good at dropping in and killing units you need to get rid of.

In terms of dealing with space wolves as a whole, I have had the most success with the Monster Mash build. Some might argue with me, but I have found this style of list to match up very well against Space Wolves.

Obits plus rhinos with ranged units - Emporer's Children or vanilla CSM. The rhinos cut down the angles that he can fire at the obits with. Meanwhile you have a lot of concentrated doom to play with.

Small terminator units can be good also with combi-weapons to cause havoc. The larger termie units I like are MoS. You have the advantage of relatively cheap termies, MoS benefits your Initiative so you are going first. I just make sure I have a chainfist in every unit to either cause anti-tank or real killer problems.

5 termies charge. 12 PW attacks at I 5 followed by 3 ChF attacks can do a number on anything the enemy pulls out against you.

My friend plays CSM and Princes with warp time are awesome. Dont forget Havok squads w heavy bolters and/or rockets as a good heavy support. Also noise marines are awesome. Nothing but horde armies can stand up to that much shooting every round (and they cant do it long.) Almost use the noise marines like an IG gunline for the first few turns and then wipe up the left overs.

Darligulv wrote:

Daemonic Chaos Lord - 170
Mok, Daemonic Steed (Khorne) and a basic daemon weapon for +1 Str and +d6 attacks.
The difference here is I don't get to re-roll failed to wounds. But I do get the benefits of a daemon weapon. However the possibility of rolling 1's is...daunting.

Wouldn't the lord have a Bloodthirster Daemon Weapon? +2d6A?

Haven't flipped through the codex recently but I'm pretty sure it is

Demons versus runic weapons...

Yeah, that sounds fun for the SW.