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Hi everyone,

Myself and a few others are currently tied up in a transaction report on the swap shop, and it's become a bit of a discussion that I suspect will be locked down by the admins soon, so I wanted to pull the conversation here.

The debate is largely over whether to send payment for traded items as a gift vs. purchase. I am inclined to use the latter method for payment as it opens the door for recourse through paypal and your credit card company. IdentifyZero shared this perspective on the TR, copied below.

IdentifyZero wrote: I have to disagree with the sending as a gift thing unless the guy is shady (Like in this case).

I think most of us use PayPal and honestly the fees can get quite ridiculous at times. In many cases, I pay extra shipping costs when I trade to insure my items are trackable and signed for and this makes sure that nobody can later claim the item was never sent. If I had to pay PayPal fees to, I might be less inclined to put out anywhere between $5-$10 a trade extra on shipping just for that extra level of security.

I had to transfer cash between accounts today, as a GIFT, it charged me $5 on just over $100, that is a little frustrating, let alone when it is a transaction.

Please leave your thoughts and experiences below. I'm relatively new to trading on Dakka and I've had some good experiences thus far. This is my first questionable one and I hope it all pans out (fingers crossed).

Thanks!

I let the payer choose what they want to do. Paypal fees are a giant PITA, but they are a cost of doing business.

When I pay, I use gift as a courtesy to the seller.

If it's someone trusted, I'll usually do a gift. Otherwise, or if it's for a large (>$100) amount, it's a purchase.

I would say payment unless you know the person very well. If you send as a gift and something happens you are hosed.


Also I would never accept someone sending me a package unless it had a tracking number. I know for a FACT that if you ship with canada post you automatically get a tracking number.

I have only done one deal here on dakka (selling my sisters army) but have done a few on Warseer also, and even the best of us have real life cirsises we have to deal with. But if you enter into a agreement with someone you should honour that agreement.

'nuff said.

Ps thank you dakka swap shop for helping me to sell my SoB's.

daedalus wrote:If it's someone trusted, I'll usually do a gift. Otherwise, or if it's for a large (>$100) amount, it's a purchase.

Agreed- for any online deal with Paypal, not just in the Swapshop!

Does anyone have a general guideline of "positive trades/feedback" for gift vs. paypal?

I have good feedback on Ebay, but I know that doesn't mean a feth here. I'm new to trading here and on Btown. I've got 1 or 2 positive feedback ratings from folks, but I'm largely "untested" as far as anyone might be concerned.

Thanks

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:
...
Also I would never accept someone sending me a package unless it had a tracking number. I know for a FACT that if you ship with canada post you automatically get a tracking number.
...

I would add here that having a tracking number/delivery confirmation means DIDDILY-SQUAT if you're pursuing compensation for an undelivered package or misrepresented goods. I'll give my own experience in this matter as evidence.

About two years ago, I purchased a few models from the swap shop and asked the seller to include delivery confirmation, which he did. I eagerly awaited the arrival of my Phoenix Lords, checking the USPS Track & Confirm page daily until it indicated they arrived. I checked my mailbox after work and it was empty - sans package or parcel box keys (I live in an apartment complex with letter boxes and parcel boxes). I called the Post Office and they verified that the package was indicated as delivered but when I replied that it wasn't in my box their response was "did you also purchase insurance for the package?" I was out $30 for the model and had no recourse as, according to the Post Office, my package arrived at the correct address safe and sound.

Moral of the story? I always request insurance for any trade or purchase I make to cover buying the item new twice over. Since incorporating this "policy" I have as of yet to have a misdelivered package.

FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:

I would say payment unless you know the person very well. If you send as a gift and something happens you are hosed.


Also I would never accept someone sending me a package unless it had a tracking number. I know for a FACT that if you ship with canada post you automatically get a tracking number.

I have only done one deal here on dakka (selling my sisters army) but have done a few on Warseer also, and even the best of us have real life cirsises we have to deal with. But if you enter into a agreement with someone you should honour that agreement.

'nuff said.

Ps thank you dakka swap shop for helping me to sell my SoB's.

This is incorrect. Tracking costs extra with Canada Post. It's often the difference between a few dollars within Canada and upwards of $5 - $10 more for the US and I've had to pay as much as $20 more for Europe to be tracked. I could even show you recent receipts of the prices to send out items with tracking for some very small packages, whereas the cost without tracking was almost half for both packages. Both of these were padded envelopes of SoB, one going out west to Alberta and another down to New York State.

In any event, you should always honor your agreements with someone and if you have taken money, you ship the product out. If you are having issues, you communicate it to the buyer so they understand. Tracking is a nessecity 100% I agree on eBay and other sites due to the millions of scammers.

I always ship with it, but on a site like Dakka or Bartertown; in the majority of cases, you will be dealing with honest fellow hobbyists. There are a minority of cases where people are bad and this unfortunately, makes it more difficult or the rest of us.

I've been selling/doing work with 40k for over 10 years in both RL and online venues on the side, mostly just snagging deals etc... and/or making some money off said deals if I Didn't want it. In that time, I've had far more good transactions than bad and the minority of people who ripped me off (Including an @ss on eBay several years ago for a $1500 army...) and I have learned to watch for the signs and always communicate.

My biggest tip:

Always insist on a phone call before any big deal with someone you have not traded with, I always incur the long distance charges to call the other person so that we've both spoken and can come to a verbal agreement. It's often much harder for these people to lie and con you over the phone, then it is over a wall of text and some pictures of how great the stuff they are selling you are.

I have mixed feelings. I don't tend to do a lot of purchasing/selling outside of feeBay, so there isn't really a choice in the matter, and I generally come away feeling double hosed since you're paying two fees. I think I've only actually sold on here two or three times, two for sure that I remember (I prefer trades, I like getting stuff), one was a larger purchase around $175.00 I believe, and that buyer did it as a gift without me asking. Another smaller one, around $30.00 did it as a purchase. If I'm going to outright sell something, I'm pretty mindful of what Paypal is going to charge me to do so if they take the purchase route and generally price accordingly anyway. I don't think I'd ever ask a buyer to send the money as a gift, as I'd never want it to seem like anything shady was going on.

As far as shipping extras, I always make sure something has delivery confirmation (at my cost usually because it's like my own insurance), if a buyer wants insurance for the item it's up to them to ask and pay for it.

Edit: The phone thing is a very good idea. On any large trade I always try to get a number just in case something goes sideways.

I posted in the TR just now but I'll do the same here too.

Paying as a gift has its place and should be used with some common sense. I pay as a gift if someone ships first due to a lower trade rating as a thank you (saves them the 3% fees). I also occasionally pay as a gift if someone has a significantly higher rep than me with ZERO bad trades (no TRs here or BTRs on bartertown). I haven't been burned yet doing that (fingers crossed!). Paying someone with no successful trades and a low post count or other red flags is just a bad idea. For those who haven't read the guide Ketara put up, check the link below:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/394192.page

To be completely honest, I do actually require international trades to be paid upfront as a gift prior to shipping, though. I've been burned in the past on a deal that supposedly didn't arrive (where I was out the money AND minis when the buyer declined insurance twice) so I make that clear fairly early in international trades that I don't take responsiblity for lost packages. I realize that it is an imposition and requires alot of trust on the part of the buyer but luckily for them I'm not out to scam anyone and always post the receipts from the post office up in my gallery on those trades as proof of shipping (you can still find some there as I haven't pruned my trade pics gallery in a while). Other than that, I don't refuse "gifts" obviously but neither do I ask for them for trades within the US.

edit: I do see the idea above about asking for a phone number prior to paying for a big trade to be a good one. While I revel as much about internet anonymity as the next guy, I think I'll be incoporating that idea for trades of $100 or more.

If I haven't done business with you before, I'm covering my own arse. It's nothing personal, I just want assurances that I can get my money back if something happens.

If I've done business with you before, I'll gift it to save you the paypal fees. If things didn't go well at our last transaction, I'm probably not doing business with you again, so it's not really an issue.

I only give or recieve paypal marked purchases- because thats what it is. A gift is something else. Much harder to dispute if you gift it. I do this here or on bartertown where I have more references. No exceptions.

If the other person doesnt like it, they can move on.

Well here is the thing.

Gift means paypal probably wont be able to cover you if something goes wrong.
However, a gift also means one side "trust" first.
Hence, one can say, if you want to be paid via gift option, they send it first.

Then both side is fair.

I've done many deals with paypal with people over the internet.

First off I never send as a gift. I have no recourse if something goes wrong. So I like to cover my butt.

Please be advised to people that do send things as gifts. That is a violation of paypal's policy and if they find out you are using the gift option to reduce fees they can and will suspend your account. I've seen this happen several guys. Pro tip: if you mark it as a gift don't put in the "note to seller or comments" that this is a indeed a purchase rather then what it is truly is supposed to be a "gift"

MrFlutterPie wrote:I've done many deals with paypal with people over the internet.

First off I never send as a gift. I have no recourse if something goes wrong. So I like to cover my butt.

Please be advised to people that do send things as gifts. That is a violation of paypal's policy and if they find out you are using the gift option to reduce fees they can and will suspend your account. I've seen this happen several guys. Pro tip: if you mark it as a gift don't put in the "note to seller or comments" that this is a indeed a purchase rather then what it is truly is supposed to be a "gift"

In many cases, I would like to think of it as a gift, in trade for the models.

Not sure about you, but I don't claim the money I make selling Warhammer models to my government. If your account ever got audited (it does happen, in Canada at least Ebay and PayPal will disclose seller information to the revenue agency) and you hadn't claimed those sales you made, you would be in trouble. I mean, the same goes for Ebay, but when you sell through Ebay you're paying Ebay and PayPal fees and from experience; you have just as much if not more chance to be scammed on there, then on here.

Think of how many 1000s of trades on Dakka/btown etc.. that people don't hear about because they went that smoothly. My last 4 deals have been very smooth, for example:

- Sold SoB models on Btown. Buyer paid, shipped next day.
- Sold SoB models on Dakka. Buyer paid, shipped next day.
- Army Trade (We spoke over the phone, made our arrangements and we both agreed to ship out on the 19th. I decided I'll ship earlier since I don't need the models, while he needed for a tournie). We may not have met, but there is trust from that phone conversation and both belonging to the site.
- Sold GK Paladin Army & Took commission work, also spoke to the buyer on the phone. He sent me the payment right away for the commission work (even though I said 1/2 up front, he sent it all) and is going to send me the rest of the money for the army when I am done.

With the exception of the Army Trade, PayPal was utilized as a gift in all cases. At my request. Why? I didn't want to pay the fees.

What I'm trying to demonstrate, is not every single person who wants a gift payment is shady. Well, I mean you might think I look shady, but I'm a AAA+ trader because I always deal with people how I want to be dealt with. On the plus side, I 90% of the time use that $5 or so I saved on PayPal to upgrade shipping. I don't know many people who will throw in $9 extra shipping to see you get your item faster, just saying... I do though often.

I prefer not to send or receive as a gift. A regular purchase is more protected. Plus, you are using the service PayPal are providing, so I think it is a bit cheeky to use the 'gift' option to bypass paying those fees (even if the fees can seem high). To use an analogy, you can't go to a store, buy some milk, and only give them half the price because you think their milk is too expensive.

IdentifyZero wrote:

MrFlutterPie wrote:I've done many deals with paypal with people over the internet.

First off I never send as a gift. I have no recourse if something goes wrong. So I like to cover my butt.

Please be advised to people that do send things as gifts. That is a violation of paypal's policy and if they find out you are using the gift option to reduce fees they can and will suspend your account. I've seen this happen several guys. Pro tip: if you mark it as a gift don't put in the "note to seller or comments" that this is a indeed a purchase rather then what it is truly is supposed to be a "gift"

In many cases, I would like to think of it as a gift, in trade for the models.

Not sure about you, but I don't claim the money I make selling Warhammer models to my government. If your account ever got audited (it does happen, in Canada at least Ebay and PayPal will disclose seller information to the revenue agency) and you hadn't claimed those sales you made, you would be in trouble. I mean, the same goes for Ebay, but when you sell through Ebay you're paying Ebay and PayPal fees and from experience; you have just as much if not more chance to be scammed on there, then on here.

Think of how many 1000s of trades on Dakka/btown etc.. that people don't hear about because they went that smoothly. My last 4 deals have been very smooth, for example:

- Sold SoB models on Btown. Buyer paid, shipped next day.
- Sold SoB models on Dakka. Buyer paid, shipped next day.
- Army Trade (We spoke over the phone, made our arrangements and we both agreed to ship out on the 19th. I decided I'll ship earlier since I don't need the models, while he needed for a tournie). We may not have met, but there is trust from that phone conversation and both belonging to the site.
- Sold GK Paladin Army & Took commission work, also spoke to the buyer on the phone. He sent me the payment right away for the commission work (even though I said 1/2 up front, he sent it all) and is going to send me the rest of the money for the army when I am done.

With the exception of the Army Trade, PayPal was utilized as a gift in all cases. At my request. Why? I didn't want to pay the fees.

What I'm trying to demonstrate, is not every single person who wants a gift payment is shady. Well, I mean you might think I look shady, but I'm a AAA+ trader because I always deal with people how I want to be dealt with. On the plus side, I 90% of the time use that $5 or so I saved on PayPal to upgrade shipping. I don't know many people who will throw in $9 extra shipping to see you get your item faster, just saying... I do though often.

I'm not to sure what you are getting at. Your post seems all over the board.

What I think I did get was you "think" that the transaction you are conducting on the internet is considered a "gift" So you think by selling models onliine and getting paid as a gift is perfectly acceptable because you think of your service is a "gift" to the buyer?

Well if Paypal agrees with you then your good to go. But I would imagine that they will see it differently from you. I would think paypal would see it as a person selling goods then getting paid using the gift option to reduce fees paid to paypal. Paypal will see that they have lost a percentage on your transactions and they will react accordingly to the terms they set up when you signed up. That means they can suspend your account.

Like I've said I've seen it happen to a bunch of people.

I also think after rereading what you have written I get the impression you feel like I am attacking you because I only pay as goods. I want to inform you that I don't know you therefore I have not made and any value judgments of your character. I merely outlined my personal policy on using paypal to buy from individuals on the internet. I want to reassure you that is not an attack on your moral character.

I'm a MOD on a couple of other forums.
These forums have trading sections, and we (the mod team) decided after a few incidents to ban selling with "paypal as a gift" for payment.
It caused too many problems, and removed any protection for those involved.

I'm confused - doesn't sending as a gift still incur the fee, but on your end? Why wouldn't you just send as a purchase, and send the extra couple cents/dollars to cover the fee?

I think the general concensus here is that unless you know/trust the other individual, it is best to stay away from the "gift" option as it eliminates any recourse you could have. I think it's safe to say that people will have differing definitions of "trust" and I'll leave it at that.

Thanks for the input everyone.