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In response to the mod sponsored removal of off topic posts in the Mantic news and rumors thread, I have made this thread in the interest of continuing discussion.

thanks,

LM

What I like about Mantics:

Ratio of Quality vs Quantity.

Accessibility to purchasing from them.

Customer Support.

Speed of Expansion.

Improvement in their products.


What I dont like about Mantic:

They are known for horde size armies, the cores should always be plastic.
I dont care if resin is easier to glue than metal, because we still need plastic not restic.
I dont like their website, its slow, and the pics are tiny compared to GW where you can see it properly.
I dont like their advance orders where they dont show any product pics
I dont like their rumor window length, I lose interest after 1 month....

What I like about Mantic:

1) Cost-effectiveness. I have picked up 3 of the Dwarf Army boxes. That gives me over 300 Dwarves, and something like 3-4000 points worth of army, for under $300 dollars. Try doing that with GW.
2) The Dwarves rock. They look much better than GW Dwarves. The undead line looks pretty good too.

What I don't like about Mantic:

1) The other lines of minis are kind of weak, in my opinion. They tend to be awful scrawney, even when not compared to equivalent GW sculpts.
2) Lack of variety of poses. They're not exactly static, but... can we say 'infinite recursion'?
3) My FLGS doesn't carry them. I have to direct-order, which can be a pain in the butt. Not to mention I prefer to gratify my desires as soon as possible...

What I like about Mantic:
-Alternate supplier of large scale fantasy/sci-fi miniature battles in 28mm. One complaint we always see when people get tired of GW games is that GW games are exactly what they want. Mantic can help with that.
-Cheaper models
-Good aesthetic (depending on taste. You see skinny elves, I see 'realistically proportioned bodies'. Dwarves I'm not so keen on, but they're still nice).
-Good expansion
-Good customer service (free rulebooks, army lists, forum, 'Mantic points')
-Ruleset (for Fantasy at least) is simple, yet does every it's competitor does, with better tactical depth. See Podhammer episode 95, 'Kings of Fury' for an semi-review of the system. It also has some historical, fan made expansions.
-Ruleset is element based, so Mantic models aren't even needed. 10mm Pendraken, anyone?
-They openly mock Games Workshop. Good on you, guys.

What I don't like:
-Expansion may be too quick. It may have been a bad idea to bring out Warpath while Kings of War is still in it's relative 'infancy', with a lack of armies and models. (Of course, it's entirely convenient that these armies have counterparts in other popular Fantasy/Sci-Fi games in the same scale. Who da thunk that?)
-Prices! Careful, Mantic. You don't want to become the thing you mock. I can think of a certain quote by Nietzsche that you may want to hang in just about every room in your offices
-Creativity. Yes, we know why they're doing it. But the only really 'imaginative' thing they done so far is stick Skaven in space.

I have mixed feelings about Mantic.

On one hand, I like the value for money behind Mantic (decent minis at a decent price). On the other hand, they haven’t done anything yet that’s appealed to me as a consumer (I honestly want to buy from them but I can’t find anything that I like).

I think their main flaw is that aesthetically they’re too similar to GW. Sure the themes are generic enough for Mantic to emulate but Mantic hasn’t put a strong/creative original twist to it IMO. I get the feeling that Mantic is still “playing it safe” a bit with their miniatures line and not taking bold enough risks.

Now if Mantic could start pushing some more original sculpts (as well as get rid of Alessio Cavetore lol), they’d get my business.

candy.man wrote:I have mixed feelings about Mantic.

On one hand, I like the value for money behind Mantic (decent minis at a decent price). On the other hand, they haven’t done anything yet that’s appealed to me as a consumer (I honestly want to buy from them but I can’t find anything that I like).

I think their main flaw is that aesthetically they’re too similar to GW. Sure the themes are generic enough for Mantic to emulate but Mantic hasn’t put a strong/creative original twist to it IMO. I get the feeling that Mantic is still “playing it safe” a bit with their miniatures line and not taking bold enough risks.

Now if Mantic could start pushing some more original sculpts (as well as get rid of Alessio Cavetore lol), they’d get my business.

Whats wrong with Alessio? KoW is a wonderfully tactical rule-set.

candy.man wrote:I have mixed feelings about Mantic.

On one hand, I like the value for money behind Mantic (decent minis at a decent price). On the other hand, they haven’t done anything yet that’s appealed to me as a consumer (I honestly want to buy from them but I can’t find anything that I like).

This is pretty much how I feel. I see these army boxes sitting in my FLGS, and think 'holy crap, I want one of those to bulk out my VC's'. But then I look at the models, and just can't.

Though for some reason I really like their Elves. If I ever did a High Elf army, it would be done with Mantic stuff.

I’m the same with their Space Orks. I don’t collect orks but if I ever did, I’d buy Mantic.

I’m also a big fan of converting. The cheap nature of mantic makes them a gold mine for conversions but alas none of the stuff they sell I can use.

Their dwarves are hit and miss. I mean, I love em', and I love
the Berserkers, but they look like different scales. I guess you
could call the Berserkers without armor and the other stuff as
with armor, but still.

lord marcus wrote:

candy.man wrote:I have mixed feelings about Mantic.

On one hand, I like the value for money behind Mantic (decent minis at a decent price). On the other hand, they haven’t done anything yet that’s appealed to me as a consumer (I honestly want to buy from them but I can’t find anything that I like).

I think their main flaw is that aesthetically they’re too similar to GW. Sure the themes are generic enough for Mantic to emulate but Mantic hasn’t put a strong/creative original twist to it IMO. I get the feeling that Mantic is still “playing it safe” a bit with their miniatures line and not taking bold enough risks.

Now if Mantic could start pushing some more original sculpts (as well as get rid of Alessio Cavetore lol), they’d get my business.

Whats wrong with Alessio? KoW is a wonderfully tactical rule-set.

KoW is Amazing, Warpath is "bleh", get that out of here!!!

What I like: pretty much everything...

What i dislike: they dont have marines yet...

It would be interesting if they did human power armoured miniatures (i.e. not-space marines). It would be hard to do given GW’s overzealous tendency to C&D anything that even lightly treads into their domain. They definitely need to release some “proper” SciFi miniatures IMO, preferably something thematically iconic like Space Marines (human power armoured soldiers) or Necrons (evil alien cyborgs).

Ninjabread did a funny webcomic whereas they described Mantics Warpath range as existing Fantasy races with “goggles”. As silly as this joke was, it’s actually true (even more so considering the recent announcement of Space Rats).

The Corporation look like the only “proper” SciFi race at the moment although from what I’ve seen so far, they’re nothing groundbreaking (as SciFi human soldiers are a dime a dozen and Mantic’s corporation minis are fairly generic).

Mantic has the biggest potential to become the No. 1 cheap alternative to GW.
They skrew it all the time because they behave like grumpy old GW ex-employees dreaming of all the niche armies of the 90s (Chaos Dwarfs, Gorkamorka Orks, Hrud, LatD) instead of investing a bare minimum in concept work. Maybe someone can post Alessio's explicit statement that they want to revive "the Golden Age of GW".

Kroothawk wrote:Maybe someone can post Alessio's explicit statement that they want to revive "the Golden Age of GW".

Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.

+ Affordable prices.
(this is slowly descending. 10 different miniatures on one sprue full of little parts was the best value for money. The 2 forgefathers with half reused sprues was the worst and way above what I would have paid for them. The resin prices are very good, the new plastic prices not so much any more. The old plastics are perfectly priced)

+ The aesthetics.
(I love almost every single one of Mantics miniatures. Except for the reused fantasy science fiction things they never cease to surprise me with decent looking armies. 10 different miniatures on sprue? Easily convertible? Not much of a clone army for me!)

+ Costumer interaction
(Whoever had the pleasure to speak to either the sculpters, Mr. Renton, Mr. Cavatore or the Golem team itself knows exactly what I mean. There is not much to say, than the interaction is perfect. Simply perfect. And the implement the costumer opinion wherever possible, I can name you 10 examples out of the top of my head!)

+ the rules
(The rules people. The rules. God I love the rules! Challenging yet funny. Rich, yet elegant. Very competitive and fair, yet also good for a laid back game. Easy to learn yet highly tactical. They are a M A S T E R P I E C E !! )

+ Packaging
(Reusable boxes with protective foam. Wonderfull!)

+ Extras
(Mantic points and posters. What a nice and wonderful surprise!)

+ Teasers
(Keeping me involved with the company and constantly checking out what they've gt

+ + + + + Orky!!!!!!
(God bless him)

+ Constant sales
(Always something to grab!)

+ The fluff
(Though you have to speak to the team personally as most is in developement right now, the planned Warpath fluff for the Rulebook is AMAZING!)

What I don't like?

- Decline in plastic sprues.
(they get reused, smaller, less bits and more expensive.. ugh Mantic please stop here right now!)

- Females
(All of the female models are ugly)

And that's about it from the top of my head. Conclusion? Mantic is an awesome and simply loveable manufacturer!

Max Jet wrote:+ Costumer interaction
(Whoever had the pleasure to speak to either the sculpters, Mr. Renton, Mr. Cavatore or the Golem team itself knows exactly what I mean. There is not much to say, than the interaction is perfect. Simply perfect. And the implement the costumer opinion wherever possible, I can name you 10 examples out of the top of my head!)

As an Australian, I couldn't disagree more. If you're not within spitting distance of the bosses, their customer interaction drops off precipitously.

+ the rules
(The rules people. The rules. God I love the rules! Challenging yet funny. Rich, yet elegant. Very competitive and fair, yet also good for a laid back game. Easy to learn yet highly tactical. They are a M A S T E R P I E C E !! )

I do not agree. The previous iteration of the core KoW rules were very good but the Warpath rules aren't, and neither are the changes with the newest iteration of the KoW Rules. Too many of the rules are arbitrarily constrained for no benefit, while others are just poorly conceived.

Positives:
Generally, prices are good. I do think the prices are creeping up. I bought the Undead set because it was excellent value, I wouldn't have bought it if it cost as much as the current Forgefather deals.
Free, solid rules. This means the barrier for entry is much lower. This is a Good Thing.
Good ranges, like Dwarves and Undead, and solid ranges, like Orcs and Forgefathers.
A steady stream of news and releases.
A committment to reviewing and correcting things (rules and models).
Carry cases (I use these quite a bit- wish the army deals came with them )

Negatives:
Nothing particularly inspiring or innovative from them in terms of concepts. But that's not always a bad thing either.
Gimmicks like Orcy. I can do without it.
Warpath rules don't do it for me.
Warpath army concepts are not doing it for me either.
Some weak ranges (Elves, Marauders, Abyssal Dwarves).
Slow but steady drop in value for money.
Some real stinkers in the model range (Drakon riders, vampire cavalry, vampire on pegasus).
No big cool plastic or resin kits and monsters (I will buy them from Maelstrom anyway though.)

AlexHolker wrote:

Max Jet wrote:+ Costumer interaction
(Whoever had the pleasure to speak to either the sculpters, Mr. Renton, Mr. Cavatore or the Golem team itself knows exactly what I mean. There is not much to say, than the interaction is perfect. Simply perfect. And the implement the costumer opinion wherever possible, I can name you 10 examples out of the top of my head!)

As an Australian, I couldn't disagree more. If you're not within spitting distance of the bosses, their customer interaction drops off precipitously.

As someone who lives across an ocean from the mantic offices, but has had wonderful interaction anyway I see your statement as flawed.

+ the rules
(The rules people. The rules. God I love the rules! Challenging yet funny. Rich, yet elegant. Very competitive and fair, yet also good for a laid back game. Easy to learn yet highly tactical. They are a M A S T E R P I E C E !! )

I do not agree. The previous iteration of the core KoW rules were very good but the Warpath rules aren't, and neither are the changes with the newest iteration of the KoW Rules. Too many of the rules are arbitrarily constrained for no benefit, while others are just poorly conceived.

The hardback/first true edition of the KoW book is in development, and some of the poor choices from the 2nd revised edition (56 page booklet) are being addressed such as war machines.

Da Boss wrote:Positives:
Generally, prices are good. I do think the prices are creeping up. I bought the Undead set because it was excellent value, I wouldn't have bought it if it cost as much as the current Forgefather deals.
Free, solid rules. This means the barrier for entry is much lower. This is a Good Thing.
Good ranges, like Dwarves and Undead, and solid ranges, like Orcs and Forgefathers.
A steady stream of news and releases.
A committment to reviewing and correcting things (rules and models).
Carry cases (I use these quite a bit- wish the army deals came with them ) New ones have included 2 of the large cases afaik, i got 2 in my elite undead set.

Negatives:
Nothing particularly inspiring or innovative from them in terms of concepts. But that's not always a bad thing either.
Gimmicks like Orcy. I can do without it.He isn't really supposed to be a gimmick, more comic relief.
Warpath rules don't do it for me.
Warpath army concepts are not doing it for me either.
Some weak ranges (Elves, Marauders, Abyssal Dwarves). Why are the AD weak? By all accounts they have sold well (a lot of the CD community has liked them.)
Slow but steady drop in value for money. Which may be revitalized, depends on the shape and amount of goblins on the plastics frames out later this year.
Some real stinkers in the model range (Drakon riders, vampire cavalry, vampire on pegasus).
No big cool plastic or resin kits and monsters (I will buy them from Maelstrom anyway though.)

AlexHolker wrote:As an Australian, I couldn't disagree more. If you're not within spitting distance of the bosses, their customer interaction drops off precipitously.

This has been rebuted by Scarletsquig, but I will remind you of the truth again.

Ork Variety = The majority of people loved the sculpts but hated the lack of head options. Mantic responded with additional metal heads (they did not have the money to push out new plastic sprues after they realized people wanted more than the heads on the sprues, but they did what they could)

Reused Fantasy Sprues = The majority of people around the world hated this and Mantic promised never ever to do this again.

Rules Tweaking = Most of the Changes in point costs and additional units was asked for by the majority of tournament attenders and forum posters. The Undead point costs is the most visible change

Make something unique versus make something I can use = I have checked and sorry, you Gomez and half a handfull of other posters are in the minority. Most people want something they can use in a GW system or something the company abandoned a long time ago. I agree with you on this here, be unique, the majority however thinks differently it is time to accept that.

Make a Dungeon Crawler = One of the best selling products is the result with another more hero foccussed DC hinted at

Make a hardback book I can carry around and read in bed = comming this year

Do something about the paint style of Golem = the result are more frequent and open conversations through Golem painting studios. The Huskarl is one of the first results along with a "Choose our painting scheme for the Corporation" right there on the Blog.


Honestly Alex. You know I often agree with your opinions but I absolutely cannot see where you are comming from on this part. You sure you didn't confuse "Make something the community wants" With "Make something I want"?

Da Boss wrote:Gimmicks like Orcy. I can do without it.

[serious mode = off] You sir have NO humour at all! [serious mode = on]

This has been rebuted by Scarletsquig, but I will remind you of the truth again.

In addition, I'd like to point out that, during the online Warpath beta test that Mantic held on BoW, AlexHolker personally made a suggestion to change the Warpath rules. (crushing strength for vehicles).

That suggestion was not ignored, Alessio read it, agreed with it and it now appears in the current edition of the rules.

Alex, I really don't understand your stance on this. You've personally offered feedback (from Australia, via the internet), had your ideas added to Warpath, but you're still not happy because they didn't agree with *all* of your opinions?

I've made a (much smaller) mark on the rules too, by winning the naming contest for the Brokkrs. That was something which was done entirely online and totally unrelated to me living in the UK.

A lot of the feedback they get does come from UK citizens, but this mainly comes down to the fact that a majority of Mantic's players and buyers are UK-based. I'm sure if there were enough people interested in the US and Australia for a tournament circuit to spring up, there would be a lot more interest in getting feedback from that. I've seen a lot of interest in Warpath in Australia, there's some people on dakka who regularly post video battle reports.

Mantic is all about feedback, but it does want that feedback to be the result of people playing the games and thrashing out the rules/ army lists on the table as opposed to a theoretical approach. That's not unreasonable, and tournaments located within spitting distance of where all the staff live is the easiest way to get good feedback. GW ignores or simply doesn't care about external balancing/ playtesting these days.

I work as a indie game developer. Watching someone play your game IRL (as in, sitting behind them and watching them play) is considered to be the holy grail of good quality game testing for a reason.

Also, what I like about Mantic can be succinctly summed up with this video.

lord marcus wrote:

Da Boss wrote:Positives:
Generally, prices are good. I do think the prices are creeping up. I bought the Undead set because it was excellent value, I wouldn't have bought it if it cost as much as the current Forgefather deals.
Free, solid rules. This means the barrier for entry is much lower. This is a Good Thing.
Good ranges, like Dwarves and Undead, and solid ranges, like Orcs and Forgefathers.
A steady stream of news and releases.
A committment to reviewing and correcting things (rules and models).
Carry cases (I use these quite a bit- wish the army deals came with them ) New ones have included 2 of the large cases afaik, i got 2 in my elite undead set.

Negatives:
Nothing particularly inspiring or innovative from them in terms of concepts. But that's not always a bad thing either.
Gimmicks like Orcy. I can do without it.He isn't really supposed to be a gimmick, more comic relief.
Warpath rules don't do it for me.
Warpath army concepts are not doing it for me either.
Some weak ranges (Elves, Marauders, Abyssal Dwarves). Why are the AD weak? By all accounts they have sold well (a lot of the CD community has liked them.)
Slow but steady drop in value for money. Which may be revitalized, depends on the shape and amount of goblins on the plastics frames out later this year.
Some real stinkers in the model range (Drakon riders, vampire cavalry, vampire on pegasus).
No big cool plastic or resin kits and monsters (I will buy them from Maelstrom anyway though.)

That's cool that they are including the cases now.
Orcy is gimmick-y comic relief. I don't find it funny, I'm sorry to say.
AD are weak in my opinion because...I don't like the sculpts? That's all, really.

I will wait and see on the goblin question too. If they look as good as the metals, I will definitely get at least a box.

Dear Mantic, make cheaper alternative plastics to the GW ones so I can use them in the GW games. Make them attractive and keep them cheap.

That's all I currently want from you. I will give you money if you do this. I will not give you that money if your minis won't scale with theirs (elves...) or if the style is wildly different (orx v orks).

And I'd like more modelling options from the sprues.

Thank you!

Da Boss wrote:[
That's cool that they are including the cases now.
Orcy is gimmick-y comic relief. I don't find it funny, I'm sorry to say.
AD are weak in my opinion because...I don't like the sculpts? That's all, really.

I will wait and see on the goblin question too. If they look as good as the metals, I will definitely get at least a box.

If you don't find it funny then that is your opinion, it does not mean it is gimmicky

Same thing with AD, except that you are classifying them as weak due to a an aesthetic choice, and not the gaming public's reaction and thus overall sales.

scarletsquig wrote:In addition, I'd like to point out that, during the online Warpath beta test that Mantic held on BoW, AlexHolker personally made a suggestion to change the Warpath rules. (crushing strength for vehicles).

That suggestion was not ignored, Alessio read it, agreed with it and it now appears in the current edition of the rules.

I am aware. I do not give them any particular credit for listening to one of half a dozen suggestions, during an official beta test, when that suggestion was so blatantly necessary. Listening when someone tells you your house is on fire doesn't make you a man of the people.

My complaint has more to do with how Mantic was acting in the lead up to the Warpath release. Things like a month straight where they'd let anyone who asked in person have a look at the models (or maybe it was the greens). Or how trivially easy it was to find out details about the corporation release - about being restic and the lack of women or vehicles... but only because someone asked in person.

AlexHolker wrote: but only because someone asked in person.

And they should extend that privilege..... why?

The only gripe I have with Mantic is that they block up the Renedra release schedule.

LunaHound wrote:

AlexHolker wrote: but only because someone asked in person.

And they should extend that privilege..... why?

Because they were asking people to preorder them?

Or even if they didn't, is it too much to ask that people not kiss their ass and call it "perfect" just because they've got theirs?

about being restic and the lack of women or vehicles... but only because someone asked in person.

Those particular questions were asked in person, because the Mantic staff went on to the forums, and asked if the internet had any questions that they would like Ronnie to be asked during the seminar. You saw the thread on Warseer, and you posted on it, and your question was asked to Ronnie. You are living proof that someone in Australia can in fact ask Ronnie a question and get an answer. The fact that you were angry about the answer they gave (no female soldiers) doesn't mean that they are poor communicators.

I wasn't personally at the Warpath open day, but my question about the Veermyn that I posted online was also asked (would have loved to see the reaction to that, heh).

At the open day earlier in the year (which I did attend) there were plenty of questions submitted to Ronnie via a staff member asking him on behalf of the internet.

Mantic go out of their way to make sure that people online have the opportunity to participate in some of the fun parts of their IRL events for people who cannot get to Nottingham.

They also held an online painting competition at the same time as the one at the open day. The online one got more participants!

I think we should move the discussion away from “Mantic listening to the people” as it’s devolved into a very arbitrary “he said, she said” discussion. We’ve had some threads derailed in the past due to some of the “passionate” Mantic fans on dakka and I wouldn’t want the same thing to happen to this one (as there’s been some good discussion).

In regards to the topic, I think Kroothawk has made one of the best points in the thread so far. Mantic has the potential at the moment to set themselves up as the No1 alternative to GW but seems to be getting too wrapped up in the past to move forward. Personally I don’t mind Mantic paying homage every now and again with a reference here or there but I don’t think it should be their primary focus. It’s too much of a coincidence that a lot of their armies thematically resemble the niche armies of the 90s (and yes this is taking into account that the themes are generic enough to emulate).

I’d rather Mantic try to do its own thing in the same way that PP does its own thing from GW.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Dear Mantic, make cheaper alternative plastics to the GW ones so I can use them in the GW games. Make them attractive and keep them cheap.

That's all I currently want from you. I will give you money if you do this. I will not give you that money if your minis won't scale with theirs (elves...) or if the style is wildly different (orx v orks).

And I'd like more modelling options from the sprues.

Thank you!

I disagree.

I want Mantic to release their own unique or interesting take on standard
fantasy races because that makes me more likely to buy them than if
they're just weaker versions of GW's ip.

scarletsquig wrote:

about being restic and the lack of women or vehicles... but only because someone asked in person.

Those particular questions were asked in person, because the Mantic staff went on to the forums, and asked if the internet had any questions that they would like Ronnie to be asked during the seminar. You saw the thread on Warseer, and you posted on it, and your question was asked to Ronnie.

WanderingRogue is a member of the Mantic staff?