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Following on from the discussion about the Minotaurs/Custodes that came out of the FW open day thread in the news and rumour forum, I have started this thread here on the suggestion of automatonsleuth so that we don't hijacking the original thread and get told off

To summarise the main points were based around the links (or maybe lack of links) between the High Lords of Terra, the Minotaurs taking direction from the High Lords and the Custodes having a representative on the council. The discussion was going well back there so please pick up where we left off.

Cheers.

For reference.

One interesting thing is this:

Imperial Armour Volume 10, pg. 107 wrote:They do not seem to have any difficulty in recruiting initiates, and appear to have an indoctrination and conversion process that is remarkably swift. Imperial observers during the Antigonis campaign noted that the transition from neophyte to Scout to full Marine in the Chapter was remarkably fast, and also highlighted the heavy use of hypno-indoctrination and neuro-cerebral surgery involved, as well as the monitoring and 'refeshing' of these techniques in full Marines by the Apothecaries of the Chapter.

Isn't that what the World Eaters did?

Are we to expect with the current hype and interest around this Chapter, that Codex Space Marines 6th Edition will feature these guys in a fair degree of depth and the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, White Scars and Raven Guard will be roundly ignored or given a token mention?

I like the Minotaurs personally and the inspiration, the Pseudo-Greek thing is nice but I cannot help feeling their concept existed in the Iron-Snakes. The links with the High Lords and AD Mech will give GW and FW an excuse to pour out some more modern Armour designs.

I would like to see a Chapter based around the Chinese Three Kingdoms Era, with Characters like Lu-Bu in Massive terminator armour and some highly elaborate Space Marine Armour.

mwnciboo wrote:Are we to expect with the current hype and interest around this Chapter, that Codex Space Marines 6th Edition will feature these guys in a fair degree of depth and the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, White Scars and Raven Guard will be roundly ignored or given a token mention?

Nah. It's just Forge World that's gone all Minotaur happy at the moment. A bit like how they went Red Scorpion happy for a while.

Personally, I believe they're either loyalist World Eater loyalists walking around with a different name, or a Chapter created using World Eater gene-seed. Kinda like the Blood Ravens, although I think the loyalist survivors theory is more plausible than a Chapter created from scratch using traitor gene-seed.

Tadashi wrote:Personally, I believe they're either loyalist World Eater loyalists walking around with a different name, or a Chapter created using World Eater gene-seed. Kinda like the Blood Ravens, although I think the loyalist survivors theory is more plausible than a Chapter created from scratch using traitor gene-seed.

This seems to be likly

H.B.M.C. wrote:For reference.

One interesting thing is this:

Imperial Armour Volume 10, pg. 107 wrote:They do not seem to have any difficulty in recruiting initiates, and appear to have an indoctrination and conversion process that is remarkably swift. Imperial observers during the Antigonis campaign noted that the transition from neophyte to Scout to full Marine in the Chapter was remarkably fast, and also highlighted the heavy use of hypno-indoctrination and neuro-cerebral surgery involved, as well as the monitoring and 'refeshing' of these techniques in full Marines by the Apothecaries of the Chapter.

Isn't that what the World Eaters did?

No the World Eaters cut a portion of the marine's brain out, hypno-indoctrination is used by all chapterscto some extent and nuero-cerebro surgery can mean alot of things.

I have a great disbane for traitor survivor/traitor geneseed loyalist chapters as they make little sense fluff wise from an external ans internal view point and is usually supported by sloppy explanations.

While I think the whole "use chaos legion geneseed" thing has been overdone... I don't think it isn't justified. There were handfuls of loyalist marines from the Traitor legions, besides the ones who help establish the Inquisition what happened to the others?-Its a reasonable question with the implication that they and their geneseeds would have been invovlved in founding new chapters. Just like those that established the inquisition, the Minotaurs have a similar special connection to the Custodes who acted to elevate Garro et al. From where else would the Custodes choose to lead or establish a special chapter to act as a "right hand" to expeditiously to get around the overly beauracratic nature of the Imperium. (In other words they were founded to get around the paper work)

In the other thread there was alot of discussion about the Minotaur's association with the Custodes and High Lords of Terra. I thought that was an interesting discussion. I would tend to think that the Minotaurs are simply keeping themselves at the disposal of the Custodes and High Lords of Terra, not necessarily under their direct command, but have simply had themselves put on speed-dial, because of their willingness to assist.

If the connection with the Custodes is correct, the Minotaurs authority may simply be under the Custodes command, whose authority originates with the Emperor, and that it is simply the Custodes presence amongst the High Lords of Terra that by extension has the Minotaurs acting at their request.

H.B.M.C. wrote:For reference.

One interesting thing is this:

Imperial Armour Volume 10, pg. 107 wrote:They do not seem to have any difficulty in recruiting initiates, and appear to have an indoctrination and conversion process that is remarkably swift. Imperial observers during the Antigonis campaign noted that the transition from neophyte to Scout to full Marine in the Chapter was remarkably fast, and also highlighted the heavy use of hypno-indoctrination and neuro-cerebral surgery involved, as well as the monitoring and 'refeshing' of these techniques in full Marines by the Apothecaries of the Chapter.

Isn't that what the World Eaters did?

Supports my crackpot theory that the Minotaurs are made from left over World Eater geenseed. They were part of the 21st founding when the high lords of Terra did some experimenting as well, perhaps they used some traitor marine geenseed left in a vault on Terra after the heresy or something. Granted my theory also includes that Blud Revahns are a 21st founding chapter made from 1k sons geenseed.

aka_mythos wrote:While I think the whole "use chaos legion geneseed" thing has been overdone...

What makes you say that? Where else to Chapters using Chaos geneseed exist? Blood Ravens and... uhh... Blood Ravens?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:While I think the whole "use chaos legion geneseed" thing has been overdone...

What makes you say that? Where else to Chapters using Chaos geneseed exist? Blood Ravens and... uhh... Blood Ravens?

Pretty much, and it is stated in Lexicanum that the High Lords of Terra did experimenting during the 21st founding (which the Minotaurs are a part of and the Blood Ravens may be), meaning that they could have simply found some 1k sons or world eater geenseed in an old vault in Terra, see that it had no physical mutations, and decided to give it a whack to see what would come of it. Would explain why the High Lords of Terra keep the Minotaurs so close, and the Blood Ravens are so secretive.

aka_mythos wrote:While I think the whole "use chaos legion geneseed" thing has been overdone... I don't think it isn't justified. There were handfuls of loyalist marines from the Traitor legions, besides the ones who help establish the Inquisition what happened to the others?-Its a reasonable question with the implication that they and their geneseeds would have been invovlved in founding new chapters. Just like those that established the inquisition, the Minotaurs have a similar special connection to the Custodes who acted to elevate Garro et al. From where else would the Custodes choose to lead or establish a special chapter to act as a "right hand" to expeditiously to get around the overly beauracratic nature of the Imperium. (In other words they were founded to get around the paper work)

A. The remaining loyalist marines fate from the traitor legions is covered in fluff of each legion, they were rounded up and executed, the fluff that goes about the founding of the inquisition is good as they are made up of the very few marines that not only didn't turn but also survived. Have whole chapters of traitor legion survivors flying around weakens that fluff.

B. The custodes choose to do nothing, they have one singular purpose, that of protecting the Emperor, they would have no interest infounding a chapter.

C. It makes little sense to use traitor geneseed in founding new chapters, why:
i. The geneseed is proven to be very suseptable to the taint of chaos.
ii. The massive amount of loyal geneseed to use.
iii. The fact that the High Lords did not get their positions be being idiots, creating a chapter from flawed geneseed, from a legion that tried to destroy the IoM would be considered the hieght of stupidity for anyone leading the IoM.
iv. A point alot of supports of this fluff use is the 21st founding, they skip the part were there is not a single mention of traitor geneseed being part of that founding.

BluntmanDC wrote:
C. It makes little sense to use traitor geneseed in founding new chapters, why:
i. The geneseed is proven to be very suseptable to the taint of chaos.
ii. The massive amount of loyal geneseed to use.
iii. The fact that the High Lords did not get their positions be being idiots, creating a chapter from flawed geneseed, from a legion that tried to destroy the IoM would be considered the hieght of stupidity for anyone leading the IoM.
iv. A point alot of supports of this fluff use is the 21st founding, they skip the part were there is not a single mention of traitor geneseed being part of that founding.

i. Is it really the geneseed? Most of the legions fell because their primarchs fell, and most of the primarchs fell due to various situations (Fulgrim had a possessed sword, Magnus was tricked, Lorgar wanted to worship someone) or simply supporting Horus because he was the primarch they trusted the most (such as with Curze).
ii. Much of which is flawed, meanwhile traitor geneseed could have simply been sitting in a vault for 10k years.
iii. Not really, if the chapter doesn't know where they came from and is kept on a tight leash there is no reason they couldn't be controlled. Geneseed is just geneseed it might make one a tad more predisposed to fall to chaos, but it won't decide whether or not a chapter fill fall.
iv. Nor was is specifically mentioned that it wasn't. They carried out experiments to remove flaws in the geneseeds, what better way to do that than start with unflawed geneseed?

At least one Strike Cruiser's worth of loyalists survived from the loyalist Fourth Fellowship of the Thousand Sons legion...not all the loyalists died at Istvaan III and Istvaan V; considering each legion had between 10,000 and 100,000 Astartes on average, there's a good chance that some loyalists who didn't become part of the original Grey Knights were allowed to prove themselves in the Heresy, and were subsequently allowed a new beginning as a new Chapter - although they were probably made to make an Oath of Silence regarding their origins. If the Blood Ravens could be Thousand Sons loyalists, why can't the Minotaurs be World Eaters loyalists?

Buttons wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:While I think the whole "use chaos legion geneseed" thing has been overdone...

What makes you say that? Where else to Chapters using Chaos geneseed exist? Blood Ravens and... uhh... Blood Ravens?

Pretty much, and it is stated in Lexicanum that the High Lords of Terra did experimenting during the 21st founding (which the Minotaurs are a part of and the Blood Ravens may be), meaning that they could have simply found some 1k sons or world eater geenseed in an old vault in Terra, see that it had no physical mutations, and decided to give it a whack to see what would come of it. Would explain why the High Lords of Terra keep the Minotaurs so close, and the Blood Ravens are so secretive.

The cursed founding is strongly implied to be an experiment in using the modified geneseed of the traitor leagions. I didn't realize the Blood Ravens or Minotaurs were part of that, which makes it ok.

BluntmanDC wrote:
A. The remaining loyalist marines fate from the traitor legions is covered in fluff of each legion, they were rounded up and executed, the fluff that goes about the founding of the inquisition is good as they are made up of the very few marines that not only didn't turn but also survived. Have whole chapters of traitor legion survivors flying around weakens that fluff.

Captain Garo of the Deathguard escaped Istavaan V with 160 some odd loyalists from the Traitor legions... They weren't executed. Garro's implied to have become the founder of the Inquisition and that he eventually establishes the Grey Knights. The fate of the others haven't been explained, but in general the loyalists from the traitor legions were generally older members... that and their survival from Istavaan implies they were veterans. I was just saying if Garro can go on to found the inquisition his geneseed and the geneseeds of these loyalists would still be out there. The general regard is that they stood upto chaos on a personal level showing a strength of character and will to resist Chaos' temptations. Traits I have no doubt they'd want in any new chapter, that might need leadership and veterans.

BluntmanDC wrote:
B. The custodes choose to do nothing, they have one singular purpose, that of protecting the Emperor, they would have no interest infounding a chapter.

The fact that they are both independent and serve amongst the High Lords of Terra shows they obviously have concerns beyond the physical protection of the Emperor. Valdor participated in the assassination plan against Horus, this was out the general expedience the Custodes work under. So many of the entities that serve amongst the High Lords of Terra have their own militant arm and agents for dealing with different threats. It seems straight forward to me that the group tasked with the Emperor's personal protection would want a force of their own for dealing with direct threats to the Emperor, before they can even attempt to reach him. We aren't even talking an active leadership role, just one where they contributed or promoted the founding to have an off Terra capability without sacrificing any on Terra amount of protection to the Emperor.

BluntmanDC wrote:
C. It makes little sense to use traitor geneseed in founding new chapters, why:
i. The geneseed is proven to be very suseptable to the taint of chaos.
ii. The massive amount of loyal geneseed to use.
iii. The fact that the High Lords did not get their positions be being idiots, creating a chapter from flawed geneseed, from a legion that tried to destroy the IoM would be considered the hieght of stupidity for anyone leading the IoM.
iv. A point alot of supports of this fluff use is the 21st founding, they skip the part were there is not a single mention of traitor geneseed being part of that founding.

Its in the fluff so it doesn't have to make sense from a "should or shouldn't have happened" perspective. The cursed founding happened because the High Lords of Terra wanted more Space Marines chapters established to deal with high losses; you might go far enough to say it was desperation that drove them to use the traitor geneseeds. The experimentation could have been partially an attempt to deal with the suseptable mutability, to take advantage of it, or to simply attempt to continue experiments on what were considered expendible geneseed stock. Like all "stupid" things we look at in hinesight, "it didn't seem like a stupid plan then." The implication is that they used traitor stock to repair loyalist geneseeds... but apparently the Blood Ravens are supposed to be part of the 21st founding and they are pretty explicitly of Thousand Son stock.

No doubt Magos Frak-Enstein of the Adeptus Mechanicus would have reassured the High Lords of Terra every step of the way he'd fixed the problems.

I don't think its ever been established how "massive" the geneseed stock is. Second, its also been shown that the Loyalist legions suffer their fair share of non-chaos induced instabilities. Those instabilities give just as many reasons why some geneseeds might not be as desireable.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:At least one Strike Cruiser's worth of loyalists survived from the loyalist Fourth Fellowship of the Thousand Sons legion...not all the loyalists died at Istvaan III and Istvaan V; considering each legion had between 10,000 and 100,000 Astartes on average, there's a good chance that some loyalists who didn't become part of the original Grey Knights were allowed to prove themselves in the Heresy, and were subsequently allowed a new beginning as a new Chapter - although they were probably made to make an Oath of Silence regarding their origins. If the Blood Ravens could be Thousand Sons loyalists, why can't the Minotaurs be World Eaters loyalists?

Garro didn't become a Grey Knight he just gathered Librarians from different chapters to found the GK. So something else had to have happened with those Veteraned non-traitor loyalists.

aka_mythos wrote:The cursed founding is strongly implied to be an experiment in using the modified geneseed of the traitor leagions. I didn't realize the Blood Ravens or Minotaurs were part of that, which makes it ok.

Blood Ravens founding has never been confirmed, but it was during or before the early 37th millennium (21st founding was in the 36th millennium, IIRC mid or late 36th millennium), so they potentially may have been a 21st founding chapter, the minotaurs confirmed to be a 21st founding chapter. Also, to my knowledge nothing has been stated regarding the 21st founding and chaos except that it was halted when Fabius Bile found out about it or something, IIRC none of the chapters are confirmed to be traitor marine related. At the very least several chapters have their primarch known, such as the Lamenters and the Blood Angels. Granted it would help to further justify the general hatred of 21st founding chapters if some of them may be suspected in universe of being related to the traitor legions.

Edit: Also the Blood Gorgons revolted soon after being founded, their symbol is the Gorgon, also there was a case when just four of their astartes lead a planet in a revolt, which sounds alpha legionesque.

...I was just repeating it, because you said the Blood Ravens may be a part of that.

aka_mythos wrote:

Buttons wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:While I think the whole "use chaos legion geneseed" thing has been overdone...

What makes you say that? Where else to Chapters using Chaos geneseed exist? Blood Ravens and... uhh... Blood Ravens?

Pretty much, and it is stated in Lexicanum that the High Lords of Terra did experimenting during the 21st founding (which the Minotaurs are a part of and the Blood Ravens may be), meaning that they could have simply found some 1k sons or world eater geenseed in an old vault in Terra, see that it had no physical mutations, and decided to give it a whack to see what would come of it. Would explain why the High Lords of Terra keep the Minotaurs so close, and the Blood Ravens are so secretive.

The cursed founding is strongly implied to be an experiment in using the modified geneseed of the traitor leagions. I didn't realize the Blood Ravens or Minotaurs were part of that, which makes it ok.

No it isn't strongly implied or even implied at all in the fluff.

[quotee=aka_mythos]Captain Garo of the Deathguard escaped Istavaan V with 160 some odd loyalists from the Traitor legions... They weren't executed. Garro's implied to have become the founder of the Inquisition and that he eventually establishes the Grey Knights.

I would like to point out that Gene-seed isn't inherently Chaos is it? This is nuture versus nature debate.

I don't see any problem using a Survivor Loyalist of the Traitor legions or even their Gene-seed in fact the Inquisition and Grey Knights were founded by these personnel after the flight of the Eisenstein as per Bluntman above.

There have been books on Traitor Legions stealing gene-seed, one such book featured the Iron Warriors breaking a huge fortress holding a huge contingent of Imperial Guard and a small company of Imperial Fists and the traitors ran off with the Gene-stock.

I keep highlighting "What would happened if an Astral Claw was in the Deathwatch when his Chapter turned renegade?" I think he would be mind wiped and re-programmed as another chapter. I generally don't think at the higher levels of the Inquisition and the various adeptus that they are that extreme. At the lower level everything is "Heresy" and you will be destroyed, at the higher echelons its seems a more pragmatic "Ends justify's the means" approach where a Billion Lives here and a Billion Lives there doesn't matter because the outcome it what counts.

So people saying everyone at every level is extremist, is skew. The Ordos Xenos are definitely a very pragmatic group and I believe so are many of the High Lords of Terra.

EDIT - Didn't realise Blood Ravens were from 1k Sons Stock.

mwnciboo wrote:I would like to point out that Gene-seed isn't inherently Chaos is it? This is nuture versus nature debate.

I don't see any problem using a Survivor Loyalist of the Traitor legions in fact the Inquisition and Grey Knights were founded by these personnel after the flight of the Eisenstein.

In the Thousand Sons' case, it is inherently Chaos.

Warning: BIG Spoiler ahead


The other Legions, you're kinda/sorta right about. We don't know exactly what was going on with them, but it's looking more and more like the Primarchs fell to whispers of corruption from their own men.

I keep highlighting "What would happened if an Astral Claw was in the Deathwatch when his Chapter turned renegade?" I think he would be mind wiped and re-programmed as another chapter.

That's irrelevant. The Astral Claws didn't turn traitor because of exposure to Chaos, nor was the Badab War centered around the forces of Chaos.
The Astral Claws turned traitor for a huge number of reasons, not least of which because they felt they were being railroaded by the High Lords and prevented from doing the duty they were assigned: pacifying the area surrounding the Maelstrom.
It wasn't until ~30ish years (I use approximation for this because most of this was when they fled to the Maelstrom and established themselves as a renegade Chapter. The Maelstrom is a Warp/Realspace interaction point and timey-wimey shenanigans are to be expected) later that the Astral Claws started really getting hot and heavy with the forces of the Ruinous Powers.

Your point is taken (didn't know that), however unstable-seed is unstable-gene seed.

The fact that Chaos suppressed it's mutation, doesn't make the Seed Chaos, it is an unstable gene-seed which then was suppressed by Chaos?

Or was it actually interfered with by Tzeentch originally in order to make it unstable and therefore give him a way in to turn them? If Chaos is powerful enough to kidnap the Pri-babies from under the Himalaya's, I should imagine they can interfere at the genetic level.

This also begs the Question What about the Spaces Wolves 13th or the Legion of the Damned? Is this Chaos Related or Gene-seed related? Wouldn't that be a killer if the 1k Sons dicked the SW's in turn.

I use the Astral Claws as an example to highlight that not everything in the Imperium is black and white, which alot of people seem to think "kill everything that isn't imperial or possibly tainted" is always the case? Surely Lysander and Mephiston should have been put down? There is an awful lot of exceptions to the Imperial Hard line that alot of people seem to shout "HERESY" at everything, the fluff seems to highlight more exceptions and strange bendings of the rules.

mwnciboo wrote:Your point is taken (didn't know that), however unstable-seed is unstable-gene seed.

The fact that Chaos suppressed it's mutation, doesn't make the Seed Chaos, it is an unstable gene-seed which then was suppressed by Chaos?

Or was it actually interfered with by Tzeentch originally in order to make it unstable and therefore give him a way in to turn them?

Read the book and find out!

There's far, far too much for me to really go into without spoiling it for anyone else--and I try not to do that whenever I can!

This also begs the Question What about the Spaces Wolves 13th or the Legion of the Damned?

The 13th Company were a weird example. Remember that when they "came back" during the 13th Black Crusade, they had very little actual face to face contact with Imperial forces. They were being hunted as well by the Ordo Hereticus at one point.

The Legion of the Damned are a similar situation. They leave the field when the fighting is done, and they talk to no one.

I use the Astral Claws as an example to highlight that not everything in the Imperium is black and white, which alot of people seem to think "kill everything that isn't imperial or possibly tainted" is always the case? Surely Lysander and Mephiston should have been put down? There is an awful lot of exceptions to the Imperial Hard line that alot of people seem to shout "HERESY" at everything, the fluff seems to highlight more exceptions and strange bendings of the rules.

Ehhhh...there's a lot of exceptions and bent rules--but it tends to be at the "man on the ground" level, not the administration level.
I can't see the High Lords countenancing experiments with Geneseed from the Traitor Legions--simply because the Custodes are privy to their day to day operations, and the Custodes know the Emperor locked that stuff away for a reason.
An Inquisitor with little oversight who got samples from dead Traitor Astartes? Maybe. But I could also see said Inquisitor being shot in the head by anyone who finds out about it.

As a sidenote, I'm not sure why Mephiston would be put down? He might be obscenely powerful, but he isn't "tainted" in any real sense.
Lysander was put through a series of very strict trials before he was let go without being shot in the face.

Kanluwen wrote:
In the Thousand Sons' case, it is inherently Chaos.

The other Legions, you're kinda/sorta right about. We don't know exactly what was going on with them, but it's looking more and more like the Primarchs fell to whispers of corruption from their own men.

I imagine that it varies a lot, EC geneseed is probably fine since Fulgrim only fell due to his possessed sword and his legion only fell because of him and their obsession with perfection, IIRC the Death Guard made a pact with Nurgle after wandering through the warp getting infected for a long time, which is understandable, the Kurze never seemed particularly chaos aligned at first, nor did Alpha Legion. TBH the main reason I support this idea is because it sounds badass.

If the origins of the minotaur chapter doesn't involve a maze in some way shape or form, I'll be much disapppointed.

Thats the name of their Fortress monastery???

Mwnciboo wrote:This also begs the Question What about the Spaces Wolves 13th or the Legion of the Damned? Is this Chaos Related or Gene-seed related? Wouldn't that be a killer if the 1k Sons dicked the SW's in turn.

From established fluff on the Space Wolves and the 13th Company it is a genetic rejection syptom related to the Canis Helix and not a chaos taint. Further it is seen that those of the 13th Company showed no genetic/biological corruption even after being in the Warp all that time, with it being believed that their Wulfenism actually protects them from chaos.

The Legion of the Damned is unanswerable as their is no knowledge yet as to what they actually are, let alone what caused it.

The Astral Claws is a bad example, as the Badab War was caused by mostly political reasons and the fact that a marine who was mentally unfit to lead was allowed to raise through the ranks. It was caused by the most part by the psychological issues of Huron and how he acted, chaos wasn't involved (unless the weaver of fates was pulling some strings).

I never cited Astral Claws as a Chaos group, just as an Example of non-black and white nature of the Imperium. Which you have demonstrated in above.

Kanluwen wrote:

Warning: BIG Spoiler ahead

Spoiler:

The "Big Reveal" that Tzeentch had to Magnus was that the Thousand Sons' Flesh Change was only being prevented by the intervention of Tzeentch. They were so inherently corrupt that the only thing keeping it from being evident was one of the freaking Ruinous Powers.

Source please? Also, worth noting that one should never take the word of a daemon/ruinous power at face value...

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Warning: BIG Spoiler ahead

Spoiler:

The "Big Reveal" that Tzeentch had to Magnus was that the Thousand Sons' Flesh Change was only being prevented by the intervention of Tzeentch. They were so inherently corrupt that the only thing keeping it from being evident was one of the freaking Ruinous Powers.

Source please? Also, worth noting that one should never take the word of a daemon/ruinous power at face value...

Read the book, "A Thousand Sons". It's towards the ending I think.

I'm not about to reread the whole dang book just to find a series of pages that this concept is explained on. I know the page for the prophecy as I have it bookmarked and highlighted just for these threads.

Traitor geneseed is not the cause of the mutations and traitorous elements in the traitor legions. It is either their loyalty to their primarchs (sons of horus, word bearers, thousand sons) they felt used (Iron Warriors) or they were on that road by traitors in their midst (death guard). The Genesees of the traitor legions have remained surprisingly pure and could be usedagain and probably has been

An example of a pure geneseed from a traitor legion is the Night Lords. The Legion itself became full of murderers and rapists because of where the majority were from (Nostramo) but the geneseed is considered purer then some of the loyalists geneseed