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Ok yesterday I had a very frustrating game caused by a Look Out Sir! annoyance from this deamon army.
Normally I don't mind if I lose, but NOT from a system that ruins any chance of stopping his forces.

Ok here's the situation. My army was footslogging Necrons (lots of them) and the deamon player had quite a fair amount of Flamers of Tzeentch. Now he would deep strike out of sight and jump towards me the next turn and burn my necrons, which sucks but it's what they do best.

BUT here's the where the problem happens. The following turn, it was my time to attack! I had a lot of firepower at these open flamers and he had heralds leading his units at front, so they would have to take the hits.
So he decided to take the saves against his Heralds (better save), and whenever he "failed" the wounds he would then 2+ look out sirs on his Flamers (who would take a save again). And since Look Out Sir! can be placed on any model, he managed to take a wound multiple flamers, not killing any of them.

So what would happen? His whole squads survives against firepower that would've normally killed them (or at best/bad dice luck... almost killed them), he jumps forward again in position and flames the rest of my army.
But the sad truth is I couldn't disagree with him over the rules, it says "Look Out Sir!" can be taken against UNSAVED wounds, and it can be placed on any model within "6 (even multiple wounds)

Can someone enlighten me and say something is wrong here, this officially is killing 6th edition for me, since everything else has been great (or at least workable).

You're playing LOS wrong. There's about 3 dozen topics about it already, but basically:

If the unit has the same save, you:
- Roll to Hit
- Roll to Wound
- Roll Saves
- Allocate to closest model
- If closest model is a character, you may attempt Look out Sir
- Resolve unsaved wound against the model the wound is (re)allocated to.

If the unit has mixed armour saves, you:
- Roll to Hit
- Roll to Wound
- Allocate to closest model
- If closest model is a character, you may attempt Look out Sir
- Roll save of the model the wound was (re)allocated to.
- Resolve unsaved wound

You can't take the save, and THEN look out sir.

The rule reads "Then a wound (or unsaved wound) is allocated to one of your characters, and there is another model..."

"...and resolve the W'ound against them instead."

You make the decision to LoS at the time the wound is allocated. In the case of different saves you would have to do it one by one. LoS does not let you take 2 armor saves for a single wound.

That process is not correct. You only get to make a save against a wound once.

If all models in the unit have the same save, you roll all the saves at once, then allocate unsaved wounds. When you allocate an unsaved wound to a character, you can attempt to Look Out Sir! the unsaved wound onto an eligible model in the unit.

If models in the unit have different saves, you allocate the wounds one at a time. When you allocate the wound to a character, you can attempt to Look Out Sir! the wound onto an eligible model. The model who is receiving the wound can then attempt to make their save.


You can use Look Out Sir! to distribute wounds across multiple multi-wound models. However, if your unit contains mixed saves, you must use LOS before taking your saving throw.

When the saves are different LoS happens before it is rolled.
The thing about LoS is that it occurs as soon as a wound or an unsaved wound is allocated to the character, when the saves are all the same allocation occurs after rolling them, but if they are different you allocate and then roll them one by one so LoS comes before the actual save is rolled.

Multiple edits as i struggle to make sense.

You played it wrong. Look Out, Sir! only happens when the wound is first allocated, which is before armor saves are taken.

The unsaved wound bit refers to units with all the same armor saves, in which case you roll all your armor saves at once and then allocate them one at a time front to back. The herald could then redirect those wounds that would hit him to other members of the unit instead.

The process goes like this:
Enemy fires at your unit
Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Wound is allocated to closest model

Now if that model is the herald, you continue:
Herald rolls for look out, sir!
If successful, wound is passed to another member of the unit
Roll your save

However, it is quite permissible for him to spread wounds to multiple flamers. But if he rolls to save with the herald, then the herald is taking the wound. Look Out, Sir! won't save you.

*post deleted* see above.

Daaayumn by the time i made a post that makes sense this got answered several times ^^

Ok thanks, actually, I'm really thankful. I won't have to put up with that anymore

Normally I don't get these rules mixed up. But he wasn't an easy player to communicate with, and I just couldn't get the message through that you had to "Look Out Sir!" before any saves are made.

I DID use your system beforehand, but this awkward game confused me a bit since it went somewhere I did not expect, and I had to make sure I wasn't get the rules wrong this time.

Also note that there is NO second save. You only get 1 save period.

Yeah, seriously, I've seen a lot of confusion on this issue but this is the first I've heard of someone failing to save, using LOS!, and then making another save! That's just wrong wrong.

The deamon army dude was running it wrong. He was taking the save twice. He probably did'nt understand the rule. SO I would get with him and explain what he was doing wrong. Then play him again.

Next time though if your unsure dont let it ruin your game for you, stop at the moment find out the truth of the matter and go from there.

Do this for each group of wounds in the wound pool. (wound pool order decided by shooting player.)

All saves the same: Roll all saves, Allocate Unsaved Wound, LOS or not, roll FnP (If all models have the same FnP, you can roll all FnP when you roll the saves)

Mixed saves: Allocate Wound, LOS or not, roll saves, roll FnP...

The key is that LOS triggers immediately on the *allocation*.

So a model may *not* take a save and then LOS

The tactic still works, but the the deamon player must roll his 2+los before his 4+ invo. A herald still works great for taking point and los wounds onto different 2 wound models, but the saves are going to be on a 5+ not a 4+

I guess I didn't really clear up the mixed (multi wound) saves.

The Flamers of Tzeentch were in a congo line behind the Herald.

IF the situation was changed, and the look out sir was passed and the saves were taken on the Flamers, can the player choose which model in the unit (within "6) the save is taken, or is randomised OR the closest model in firing range (like normal shooting allocating)

I would look to kill some flamers, and not wound most/all of them.

Blackgaze in the situation you mentioned: "The Flamers of Tzeentch were in a congo line behind the Herald."

Take LoS first, then roll any applicable saves.

If he chose not to LoS then rolled saves on the Herald then any failed saves would result in wounds for the Herald.

The player chooses which model in the unit the LOS! would is allocated to. It doesn't have to be the closest one.

The Look Our Sir! has been explained, I get it.

I meant about how the wounds are allocated to the Flamers within "6. If it any model chosen, randomized or closest to gunfire?

I really don't want to encounter the "they all survive but with 1 wound" situation again

He can roll LoS then any model within 6" can be allocated the wound, then that model will roll saves.

He gets to choose.

 Blackgaze wrote:
I really don't want to encounter the "they all survive but with 1 wound" situation again

Unfortunately that's a real possibility.

"When a Wound(or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your
characters,"
He may take the heralds save then LOS and if he passes the LOS the daemon who is passes it off on takes a wound, no second save. Altho he can take the characters save and then allocated it off him, he cannot take another amour/invul save. You can LOS before or after you take the save for the wound, but you can't take another save.

 Discodontron wrote:
"When a Wound(or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your
characters,"
He may take the heralds save then LOS and if he passes the LOS the daemon who is passes it off on takes a wound, no second save. Altho he can take the characters save and then allocated it off him, he cannot take another amour/invul save. You can LOS before or after you take the save for the wound, but you can't take another save.

The underlined is only true if all of the models have the same saves.

The Italics is not true.

The orange is sometimes true depending on:

If the saves are the same, you roll saves then use LoS and distribute the unsaved Wounds(No further saves available)

If they the saves are different then you roll for LoS then roll for saves for the models that had wound allocated to them.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Discodontron wrote:
"When a Wound(or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your
characters,"
He may take the heralds save then LOS and if he passes the LOS the daemon who is passes it off on takes a wound, no second save. Altho he can take the characters save and then allocated it off him, he cannot take another amour/invul save. You can LOS before or after you take the save for the wound, but you can't take another save.

The underlined is only true if all of the models have the same saves.

The Italics is not true.

The orange is sometimes true depending on:

If the saves are the same, you roll saves then use LoS and distribute the unsaved Wounds(No further saves available)

If they the saves are different then you roll for LoS then roll for saves for the models that had wound allocated to them.

Where does it say in the rulebook that different saves LoS before saves? I don't see the rules which makes this happen, if the herald is closest he has to take the wounds so you do it one at a time till he dies before the rest of the squad takes the save. And with LoS he can stay alive longer. If you are right my warboss should not be taking his 2+ and lots of more boys should be dieing.

You can take the saves with the Herald, but since the unit is mixed saves, any failed saves result in unsaved Wounds for the Herald and he can not pass them off with LoS after he has rolled his saves.

The LoS rules P.16 and the way to roll armor saves in a mixed save P.15, tell us these rules.

In your situation you can roll the 2+ armor save for the warboss if he is the closest model, but if he fails a save he takes a wound and can not LoS that wound away.

This is because for mixed save units P. 15 tells us to allocate a wound to the enemy from the wound pool to the model closest to the enemy unit then the model gets to make a saving throw.

LoS tells us that "When a Wound (or unsaved'Wound) is allocated ro one of your characters..." so once you allocate the wound to the Warboss you either use LoS or take his armor save at that point.

 Discodontron wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Discodontron wrote:
"When a Wound(or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your
characters,"
He may take the heralds save then LOS and if he passes the LOS the daemon who is passes it off on takes a wound, no second save. Altho he can take the characters save and then allocated it off him, he cannot take another amour/invul save. You can LOS before or after you take the save for the wound, but you can't take another save.

The underlined is only true if all of the models have the same saves.

The Italics is not true.

The orange is sometimes true depending on:

If the saves are the same, you roll saves then use LoS and distribute the unsaved Wounds(No further saves available)

If they the saves are different then you roll for LoS then roll for saves for the models that had wound allocated to them.

Where does it say in the rulebook that different saves LoS before saves? I don't see the rules which makes this happen, if the herald is closest he has to take the wounds so you do it one at a time till he dies before the rest of the squad takes the save. And with LoS he can stay alive longer. If you are right my warboss should not be taking his 2+ and lots of more boys should be dieing.

You said it yourself:
"When a Wound(or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your characters,"

LoS occurs upon alocation, when the saves are the same allocation happens after rolling them (unsaved wounds), when they aren't it happens before (wounds).

LoS states "Unsaved wounds" where I seem to find that I took a save then failed so I can LoS it off him. I understand that you saying it was allocated to him so he can't allocated it off him, but why can't he? why can't you allocated a wound more then once. It seems that LoS is allowing you to do this. Your Character is allocated a wound, he takes a save fails, so then the failed saved is his and it is allocated on him. Thus he LoS and allocates it off him and onto a squad member. My main concern is what is the point of the Unsaved wound line in the LoS part. Say your Marine sergeant takes a str 4 ap 1 wound, he has taken the wound but its not unsaved, it just a wound. It is unable to be saved, but its not a unsaved wound.

Pg.15
Read: "Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties"

Next
Pg.15 (again)
Read the subrule of "Mixed Saves": "Allocate Wounds"


As these two rules clearly show allocation (which is the sole trigger for LoS), works differently for same and mixed saves.

 Discodontron wrote:
LoS states "Unsaved wounds" where I seem to find that I took a save then failed so I can LoS it off him. I understand that you saying it was allocated to him so he can't allocated it off him, but why can't he? why can't you allocated a wound more then once. It seems that LoS is allowing you to do this. Your Character is allocated a wound, he takes a save fails, so then the failed saved is his and it is allocated on him. Thus he LoS and allocates it off him and onto a squad member. My main concern is what is the point of the Unsaved wound line in the LoS part. Say your Marine sergeant takes a str 4 ap 1 wound, he has taken the wound but its not unsaved, it just a wound. It is unable to be saved, but its not a unsaved wound.

A wound that cannot be saved is an unsaved wound.

Warboss in front of a mob of boyz with his 2+ gets shot at he fails his 2+ save, thus he has taken a unsaved wound as stated on page 15 in unsaved wound, and then he LoS and passes so he allocates it to a boyz and the boy dies.

LoS
"When a Wound(or unsaved Wound) is allocated to one of your
characters"

Unsaved wounds
"Next,allocate an unsaved Wound to the enemy model closest to
the firing unit. Reduce that model'sWounds by 1."

Which means that you can LoS after you take the save so its a "unsaved wound"

so
LoS
- Roll to Hit
- Roll to Wound
- Roll Saves
- Allocate to closest model
- If closest model is a character, you can LoS
- Resolve wound against the model the wound is allocated/reallocated too

 Discodontron wrote:
Warboss in front of a mob of boyz with his 2+ gets shot at he fails his 2+ save, thus he has taken a unsaved wound as stated on page 15 in unsaved wound, and then he LoS and passes so he allocates it to a boyz and the boy dies.

No, when the Warboss with a 2+ save is in front of a mob, and you allocate a wound to the warboss, then and there you either LOS! or you do not. If you do not, then you roll his save. If he fails his save, it is too late - your chance to use LOS! already passed.

You can only LOS! when a wound is allocated, not whenever you happen to feel like it.

BTW, using your Warboss 2+ save and then moving failures onto 6+ save models should be obviously nonsense.