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Chaos Demons - My Starter Army

275 - Bloodthirster - Blessing of the Blood God, Unholy Might
145 - 3 Bloodcrushers - Chaos Icon
185 - 10 Bloodletters - Chaos Icon
185 - 10 Bloodletters - Chaos Icon
210 - Demon Prince - Demonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne, Blessing of the Blood God, Death Strike

I just picked up these models at the FLGS, ready to assemble, paint and have some fun. Not sure if I'll grow the list with Chaos Marines (using Allies for one of the armies), or straight Demons - I wanna try the "play both 40k and Fantasy" army design, so maybe just Demons.

I'm just looking at advice on how to kit em out, and loadouts - I want to do Khorne themed, and I only wanna collect the models I like. I want to paint it red! What do you think the best all-Khorne lists are? Thanks in advance.

 evildrspock wrote:
Chaos Demons - My Starter Army

210 - Demon Prince - Demonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne, Blessing of the Blood God, Death Strike

This clocks in at 235 points if I calculate it correctly, not 210. At that point, you might as well just strip off your chaos icons and run the prince as another Bloodthirster. This is very mean at 1000 points though

 evildrspock wrote:
Chaos Demons - My Starter Army

275 - Bloodthirster - Blessing of the Blood God, Unholy Might
145 - 3 Bloodcrushers - Chaos Icon
185 - 10 Bloodletters - Chaos Icon
185 - 10 Bloodletters - Chaos Icon
210 - Demon Prince - Demonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne, Blessing of the Blood God, Death Strike

I just picked up these models at the FLGS, ready to assemble, paint and have some fun. Not sure if I'll grow the list with Chaos Marines (using Allies for one of the armies), or straight Demons - I wanna try the "play both 40k and Fantasy" army design, so maybe just Demons.

I'm just looking at advice on how to kit em out, and loadouts - I want to do Khorne themed, and I only wanna collect the models I like. I want to paint it red! What do you think the best all-Khorne lists are? Thanks in advance.

Well...I guess the big question is if you're set on the mono-god theme or not.

Anyways, some general comments:
1) Too many icons. In fact, in 6th edition, I've been running without icons pretty decently.
2) The bloodthirster really doesn't need might. With smash, you're S10 at half your attacks, so you get a choice of S7 AP2 with 5 attacks, or S10 AP2 with 3 attacks, plus 1 attack for charging.
3) I'm pretty negative on bloodletters as troops these days, but if you're going mono-khorne, you don't have much in the way of options.
4) That prince seems expensive. But I've not used princes much, so YMMV.

If the meta game runs a lot of stormravens, the S8 for vector strikes is nice Otherwise, I would agree that S7 is enough

1st of all, jms40k, I don't know how I did that, must have been an error from calculating it in Excel.

 Centurian99 wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
Chaos Demons - My Starter Army

275 - Bloodthirster - Blessing of the Blood God, Unholy Might
145 - 3 Bloodcrushers - Chaos Icon
185 - 10 Bloodletters - Chaos Icon
185 - 10 Bloodletters - Chaos Icon
210 - Demon Prince - Demonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne, Blessing of the Blood God, Death Strike

I just picked up these models at the FLGS, ready to assemble, paint and have some fun. Not sure if I'll grow the list with Chaos Marines (using Allies for one of the armies), or straight Demons - I wanna try the "play both 40k and Fantasy" army design, so maybe just Demons.

I'm just looking at advice on how to kit em out, and loadouts - I want to do Khorne themed, and I only wanna collect the models I like. I want to paint it red! What do you think the best all-Khorne lists are? Thanks in advance.

Well...I guess the big question is if you're set on the mono-god theme or not.

Anyways, some general comments:
1) Too many icons. In fact, in 6th edition, I've been running without icons pretty decently.
2) The bloodthirster really doesn't need might. With smash, you're S10 at half your attacks, so you get a choice of S7 AP2 with 5 attacks, or S10 AP2 with 3 attacks, plus 1 attack for charging.
3) I'm pretty negative on bloodletters as troops these days, but if you're going mono-khorne, you don't have much in the way of options.
4) That prince seems expensive. But I've not used princes much, so YMMV.

Thanks for the response. In response to your comments,
1) Yeah, I can see that, it seems like a good idea to have maybe 1 @ 1000, maybe 1-2 @ 2000, I can definitely be dropped, though.
2) I totally didn't think about the half attacks at double toughness, so Might is kinda silly on him.
3) I can see the 5+ in general hurting them, but they look awesome so for me that's a deciding factor.
4) I can probably trim the prince a little, I'll have to look at what is really useful for him. The prince will want Unholy might to wound Marines on a 2+, and I can't say no to wings as flying is too awesome to leave. With the new vector strikes and swooping attacks, the Death Strike may be a useless upgrade too, freeing up some more points in my army.

For me, the desire to collect the army is mainly aesthetic, the Khorne models are my favorite demon style, plus I get to beat face with the enemy in assault. I'm aware of awesome models under other Chaos Gods, but that's ok, I might go that direction, but that's later. Right now, I'm thinking mono-Khorne building up to 1850. I think it's cool to have flying monstrous creatures, and love winged models - heck, i could bring 5 @ 1850-2000. That might be a fun theme for the army, flying monstrous demons, all armed with axes to beat face.


Here's my 1st idea for building to 1850 (my local tournament value):
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chaos Demons
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

255 - Bloodthirster - Blessing of the Blood God
255 - Bloodthirster - Blessing of the Blood God
245 - 6 Bloodcrushers - Instrument of Chaos
160 - 10 Bloodletters
160 - 10 Bloodletters
160 - 10 Bloodletters
205 - Demon Prince - Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne
205 - Demon Prince - Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne
205 - Demon Prince - Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I have lots of Demon Princes and Bloodthirsters to kill stuff and draw attention with, while bloodcrushers beat in more face, as the Bloodletters help soften the enemy and hopefully survive to hold objectives.

Thoughts? Criticisms? Improvements?

Might is never silly. Its the LR and monoliths that its used for. Good to see another daemon player though. I might suggest buying a lot more crushers. Theyre easily one of the best units in the codex. The daemons are an elites army for sure and then after those, Id seriously focus you attention on screamers and flamers along with a fateweaver. Khorne and Tz are the best ways to go for daemon players. Unless you do mono nurgle nor mono slaanesh. The best combo is fatecrusher and I reccommend using that to its fullest potential. ESPICALLY with the new warp pads.

Turn 1: Deploy 3x3 crushers and fateweaver with a bloodthirster. Literally an impenetrable fortress. Then, just run that at their gunline. Its the only way these days to death with the guard gunline spame we see in tournaments. Ask any daemons player, Fatecrusher lists are solid and tourny ready.

The 1000pt list looks pretty good. Get the crushers in first to tie stuff up til the bloodletters get in to help. Maybe drop Death Strike on the prince for Fury of Khorne on the bloodletters. Use cover to your advantage because overwatch hurts.
The 1850 list looks pretty spot-on for a mono god Khorne list. It should serve you pretty well. You may want to look in to freeing up the points for FoK wherever you can.

So, 2 variants to the 1000 pt list, after recommendations:


255 - Bloodthirster - Blessing of the Blood God
120 - 3 Bloodcrushers
208 - 13 Bloodletters
208 - 13 Bloodletters
205 - Demon Prince - Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne

Or

255 - Bloodthirster - Blessing of the Blood God
200 - 5 Bloodcrushers
170 - 10 Bloodletters - Fury of Khorne
170 - 10 Bloodletters - Fury of Khorne
205 - Demon Prince - Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne

General questions here - Are items such as the Fury of Khorne or Instruments of Chaos Worth it? How about A Herald with a Bloodletter Squad or with the Bloodcrushers? Much to learn with a new army.

I'm liking the flavor of the all Khorne army so far. Fateweaver may be too good of a deal to pass up, we'll see. I can see the Bloodcrushers will crush the pocketbook, though - it will take a while to collect very many of them.

EDIT: I added 1 more variant list, this one I'll be using I think until I get more models, which will be a while. Please critique this list for me, to help it be the best that it can.


255 - Bloodthirster - Blessing of the Blood God
120 - Herald of Khorne - Juggernaut, Iron Hide
80 - 2 Bloodcrushers
170 - 10 Bloodletters - Fury of Khorne
170 - 10 Bloodletters - Fury of Khorne
205 - Demon Prince - Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne

Would it be better to make a Herald of Khorne as shown here, or to add more gifts to the Bloodletters/Bloodcrushers? I have 80 Points to spend here, help.

Which ever list you take beware of pask in a punisher tank 20 shots that re-roll to wound against monstrous creatures will hit you hard

Red, pask punishers are very few and far between, so its luckily not a common issue.

TBH, i dont see the need for the prince in the list, you can easily draw in the points to make him another thirster.
Twin thirster at low points allways has been nasty, but with new FMC rules, its even better.

I also like the mono-god theme, its rare to see, but nice none the less.
As said earlier though, fatecrusher tends to be the top build.

The Chaos Daemons have units of different gods for a reason. For example Khorne are an excellent close combat unit, Tzeentch are very good at long range, Nurgle are good at distracting and it doesn't matter as much if they get shot at because of their high toughness and Slaanesh are great for their high initiative and high amount of attacks in close combat. So TBH, your army lacks a lot of long range and competitive army generally needs an element of long range and melee, which i why i think that you should get flamers and replace them with the Bloodcrushers, especially because they are generally cheaper in points and you would need roughly 6 Bloodcrushers to make them last long enough for them to assault the enemy whereas Tzeentch bring an element of long range and massive damage on the turn that they deepstrike. It is up to you to decide how you want to write your army but i recommend for a starter gamer at warhammer 40k i think you should get units of different gods. You could still paint them red.

I don't know if I've heard of a Pask punisher before, what army is that? Also, I'm using a Demon prince and a Bloodthirster because I have a Demon Prince and a Bloodthirster Model. I guess I could call the Demon Prince a 2nd Bloodthirster (the way I modeled him he kinda looks like one anyways, with the axe), but the prince rules seem ok too.

Pask Punisher is IG. Its a 14/13/11 Tank w/ 20 ST5 shots.

Def take 2 thirsters. Never take a DP of slaanesh or khorne. Youre 10x times better off taking a thirster or keeper.

Princes are shooting platforms, flamers are anti troops/cover and should always be taken in 3s.

xSoulgrinderx wrote:Might is never silly. Its the LR and monoliths that its used for.

Might on a bloodthirster is almost always silly. The one time where its useful is if you're going against a unit composed of multiple T4 multi-wound models. In pretty much every other situation, you're generally better off smashing, and getting S10. Remember, you don't have 2d6 pen any more, so if you're taking on LRs and Monoliths, smash is superior.

Dirty math: 4 S10 attacks v 6 S9 attacks v AV14
4 S10 attacks = 2.66 hits = .44 glances/.89 pens
6 S9 attacks - 4 hits = .66 glances/.66 pens.

Thus, a higher chance of penetrating hits, which beats glances any day of the week.

xSoulgrinderx wrote:I might suggest buying a lot more crushers. Theyre easily one of the best units in the codex.

They're good,but hardly the best. For a mono-khorne army, they're definitely useful.

xSoulgrinderx wrote:The best combo is fatecrusher

Not even close. Best unit in the CD codex is now flamers, with Screamers a close second. For unit combinations, there's now really no stand-out combos.

evildrspock wrote:
4) I can probably trim the prince a little, I'll have to look at what is really useful for him. The prince will want Unholy might to wound Marines on a 2+, and I can't say no to wings as flying is too awesome to leave. With the new vector strikes and swooping attacks, the Death Strike may be a useless upgrade too, freeing up some more points in my army.

If you're up for converting, give the prince a mace or a staff as a weapon. +2 S, and they're still AP2 because they're monstrous creatures.

evildrspock wrote:
For me, the desire to collect the army is mainly aesthetic, the Khorne models are my favorite demon style, plus I get to beat face with the enemy in assault. I'm aware of awesome models under other Chaos Gods, but that's ok, I might go that direction, but that's later. Right now, I'm thinking mono-Khorne building up to 1850. I think it's cool to have flying monstrous creatures, and love winged models - heck, i could bring 5 @ 1850-2000. That might be a fun theme for the army, flying monstrous demons, all armed with axes to beat face.

Flying circus can be nice, but if you're going mono-Khorne, you really want to go MSU, so that you can have sacrificial units to throw at units in assault. The khorne flying circus loses because it doesn't have efficient shooting.

Of course, if the rumored CD codex comes this winter, all this goes out the window.

 Centurian99 wrote:


If you're up for converting, give the prince a mace or a staff as a weapon. +2 S, and they're still AP2 because they're monstrous creatures.

If I'm not mistaken the Prince has a regular CCW and only the PW mace has the +2 S rule

 Centurian99 wrote:

xSoulgrinderx wrote:Might is never silly. Its the LR and monoliths that its used for.

Might on a bloodthirster is almost always silly. The one time where its useful is if you're going against a unit composed of multiple T4 multi-wound models. In pretty much every other situation, you're generally better off smashing, and getting S10. Remember, you don't have 2d6 pen any more, so if you're taking on LRs and Monoliths, smash is superior.

True, now with 6th changes. Im still in the blur between 5th and 6th

xSoulgrinderx wrote:I might suggest buying a lot more crushers. Theyre easily one of the best units in the codex.

They're good,but hardly the best. For a mono-khorne army, they're definitely useful.

Yeah, the new flamers are great the the screamers get some new tricks, but still stat wise, these are the best. And not just a mono khorne army, a few lists can work well with these guys. Like slaanesh/ khorne panave lists. Ive run them and they work. Little on the fragile side but man, when the hammer hits... its a tabling.

xSoulgrinderx wrote:The best combo is fatecrusher

Not even close. Best unit in the CD codex is now flamers, with Screamers a close second. For unit combinations, there's now really no stand-out combos.

Please note the word "combo". Flamers have always been good. Nothing new here. Sure they got an extra wound and overwatch, but their overall purpose hasnt changed at all. Deepstrike in MSU of 3 and sucidie flame key units like devastators, guard gun lines, tau suits and termies. The best COMBO is still fateweaver, arguable a mono nurgle list with epid., plague hulks, blight drones and decimators of nurgle. Flamers are better yes, little more survivable (arguably) but still they need either a pavane to make a combo.

evildrspock wrote:
For me, the desire to collect the army is mainly aesthetic, the Khorne models are my favorite demon style, plus I get to beat face with the enemy in assault. I'm aware of awesome models under other Chaos Gods, but that's ok, I might go that direction, but that's later. Right now, I'm thinking mono-Khorne building up to 1850. I think it's cool to have flying monstrous creatures, and love winged models - heck, i could bring 5 @ 1850-2000. That might be a fun theme for the army, flying monstrous demons, all armed with axes to beat face.

Flying circus can be nice, but if you're going mono-Khorne, you really want to go MSU, so that you can have sacrificial units to throw at units in assault. The khorne flying circus loses because it doesn't have efficient shooting.

Of course, if the rumored CD codex comes this winter, all this goes out the window.

xSoulgrinderx wrote:

Yeah, the new flamers are great the the screamers get some new tricks, but still stat wise, these are the best. And not just a mono khorne army, a few lists can work well with these guys. Like slaanesh/ khorne panave lists. Ive run them and they work. Little on the fragile side but man, when the hammer hits... its a tabling.

xSoulgrinderx wrote:The best combo is fatecrusher

Not even close. Best unit in the CD codex is now flamers, with Screamers a close second. For unit combinations, there's now really no stand-out combos.

Please note the word "combo". Flamers have always been good. Nothing new here. Sure they got an extra wound and overwatch, but their overall purpose hasnt changed at all. Deepstrike in MSU of 3 and sucidie flame key units like devastators, guard gun lines, tau suits and termies. The best COMBO is still fateweaver, arguable a mono nurgle list with epid., plague hulks, blight drones and decimators of nurgle. Flamers are better yes, little more survivable (arguably) but still they need either a pavane to make a combo.

You need to try 9-man flamer squads. There isn't a unit that they can't wipe in one turn with even middling hits...no pavane required. They also have the ability to hit multiple units, which forces your opponents to spread out (or lose).

But that's really beyond the point of helping someone build a mono-khorne army.

New codex? Bah, been hearing that for years. I have run the 5x flying monsters and it rocks face. Its a HUGE intimidation factor when you opponent asks what youre bringing and you drop down 5 FMC. Bad day. The problem is that you give him little to shoot at so youre going to get a pounding and you NEED to survive it. otherwise its just good target practice. If you really wanted to go mono khorne take a fateweave and paint him like Moltres. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/08/40k-wfb-rumors-next-codices.html

Soulgrinder - 5 FMC is nice, but being as subtle as a sledge hammer isnt allways the best way.

DE, Gauess etc really isnt a nice thing for any large target to be facing.
Also, since daemons lack armour, where do you think anything S5+ will be going?

While i like my GD's and princes as much as most people, i also like the idea of keeping a distance and shooting magic fire at people from a chariot.

Centurian is also right, flamers are possibly one of the most dangerous units in the game, but have no use in a khornate army.

I disagree with the assertion that might is silly. Anytime you face a space marine character with a storm shield and no eternal warrior, then might can be the difference between being tarpitted for a few turns or instant deathing them on the second round of combat. I've never regretted having might for using against the aforementioned toughness 4 characters with good invuls, paladins, meganobs etc. Fair enough its not needed against vehicles, but I would highly recommend it in any event.

amasokka88 wrote:I disagree with the assertion that might is silly. Anytime you face a space marine character with a storm shield and no eternal warrior, then might can be the difference between being tarpitted for a few turns or instant deathing them on the second round of combat. I've never regretted having might for using against the aforementioned toughness 4 characters with good invuls, paladins, meganobs etc. Fair enough its not needed against vehicles, but I would highly recommend it in any event.

Again, you can always choose to smash. 3 attacks at S10, or 4 S10 attacks on the charge. It also lets you instakill against T5, which might won't let you do. That makes the advantage gained by unholy might on a bloodthirster so situational that its silly:

Where its superior:
Units of T4 multiwound models without eternal warrior.
Where its not superior:
Anywhere else. Characters still get smashed and 3 or 4 attacks is usually enough. Vehicles get smashed. T5 multiwound models get smashed.

It's silly, because that's 20 points you can spend someplace else, usually much more effectively than you can on a bloodthirster.

Here's the dirty little secret about bloodthirsters, BTW. If they're getting tarpitted by a multi-wound character with a storm shield...AWESOME. That means that that enemy character isn't running around the field putting the smack down on other, more vulnerable units. If that multi-wound character has a retinue...even better! You've now got that character stuck in a challenge, where the rest of the retinue is siting around with their thumbs up their asses.

One more list idea:

300 - Scarbrand
255 - Bloodthirster - Blessing of the Blood God
245 - 6 Bloodcrushers - Instrument of Chaos
144 - 9 Bloodletters
144 - 9 Bloodletters
144 - 9 Bloodletters
205 - Demon Prince - Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne
205 - Demon Prince - Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne
205 - Demon Prince - Daemonic Flight, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Mark of Khorne

Scarbrand seems pretty cool, as he can augment my whole army like Fateweaver, but in a much more Khorne like fashion. So what if my opponent gets to reroll to hit? so do I! Let the bloodbath roll. For 50 points, he gets +1 Strength, +1 Attacks, +1 to his invulnerable save, plus Breath of Chaos and Instrument of Chaos. That seems a pretty good tradeoff for lack of flying, in comparison to the other Demons.

Plus, as I'll be getting 2 more Demon Princes, I can give him the 2 axes from the kits (converted up to look like his flat-top axes) - It will look awesome. Now, just wondering if the everyone rerolls will be worth it. I wonder if it will just make everyone better, which means since I'm already better and decent nitiative I'll just beat that much more face, or if it will work more to close the gap by allowing more Close Combat attacks to hit me. It's a hard call there, I leave it to your advice out there.

.....

Of course, If I take all flyers, then the flying monstrous creatures can now deep strike down 1st turn on the back field, during say nightfighting, and be hard to hit. Then, turn two, change into flying mode and rush forward 24", running as well (yay running while flying!). The opponent has 1 turn to shoot them down whilst hitting on 6's. Yeah I have a chance of falling hard to the ground, but 40k is about taking risks, right? If they don't kill them that turn, then pretty much guaranteed turn 3 I switch 3 to 5 flying monstrous creatures to Gliding mode, jump 12 more inches forward for a total threat range of 40" to 60", where upon they crash into the enemy and kill whatever they hit. By then I should see some support Bloodletters and Bloodcrushers falling down too, to help pick up the pieces of the enemy and hold some objectives.

Maybe it sounds too ideal in my head, but I think that will work well, even against gunlines. I know that units like Storm Talons and other fliers will love to give chase to my FMC - and that' ok, that's what vector strikes are for. What I'm most scared about are Tau gunlines, which could be nasty with full squads markerlights and the like showering my DP's and Bloodthirsters with S5+ firepower. But hey, 1 turn, then they're dead.

Skarbrand doesn't really work well with Khorne, in general. Yes, he makes them better, but since he makes the opponents assault better too, khorne models don't have a high enough initiative to really make it worthwhile. He works amazingly well with Slaanesh though - that was a cornerstone of my army in 5th edition (I preferred him over fateweaver, actually).

And by the way, your battle plan for a flying circus is a bit off. What you want to do is arrive in swoop mode, deep striking 13" away from any enemy models. That gives you the snap shot protection on arrival, which helps with the survivability. On subsequent turns, you either swoop or move normally as the situation warrants.

Something that might be very useful would be a large unit of khorne hounds. While not the strongest unit against marines, they're good against anything that isn't MEQ, and amazing against grey knights. And they give your army some much needed speed as well.

So, I can deepstrike down as a FMC in swoop mode, then I can run 2d6 inches per rules of deepstriking/fmc, right? I thought a creature that moves as fmc has to move at least 12" that turn - is that breaking the rules?

 evildrspock wrote:
So, I can deepstrike down as a FMC in swoop mode, then I can run 2d6 inches per rules of deepstriking/fmc, right? I thought a creature that moves as fmc has to move at least 12" that turn - is that breaking the rules?

I think you can start them as swooping as it states that when they enter from reserves you declare whether they are swooping or gliding. However, the UK GT this year is interpreting it as you have, so I guess its down to your local meta and how you guys decide to play it.

And @Centurian99 - I stand corrected, I didn't realise you could declare a smash against any target, for some reason I thought it was just vehicles. That's win, I will be running mine without unholy might from now on.

You can decide how its moving as it arrives. I don't think it breaks the rule...but I guess its a slightly gray area.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Amos

Hmm...didn't know that. We just went with the deep striking vehicles arrive at cruising speed ruling and applied it to fmcs.

And dont forget that smash gives you reroll on the armor pentetration roll against vehicles. :-) Smash is awesome.

The reserves section (p.124) says "If a unit has a special rule forcing it to move in a specific direction or that could stop it from moving, the rule is ignored in the phase when it arrives form reserve." The Flying Monstrous Creature rules on p. 49 says if "A flying monstrous creature is kept in reserves then as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swoop or Glide mode." Down lower it reads under Swooping that "It must Move at least 12" and can move up to 24". Plus, in the Deep Strike Section on p 36 it says "That they "obviously count as having moved in the previous movement phase." I would assume that any flying monstrous creature arriving from reserve via deepstrike ignores the restrictions for movement and chooses Flying or Gliding. Especially since FMC have Move Through Cover and ignore dangerous terrain tests.

So are you suggesting that FMC can swoop or glide as they enter DS?

That''s what I'm not sure on. You choose if a FMC is Gliding or Swooping when they enter from reserve - so why not when they deep strike in?

 evildrspock wrote:
That''s what I'm not sure on. You choose if a FMC is Gliding or Swooping when they enter from reserve - so why not when they deep strike in?

Deep striking in is entering from reserves.

Thats what I thought. You enter in either model, but why would you enter in anything BUT swooping? Thats snap shots turn you enter.

Then at the beggining of next turn, change your movement as needed.