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Moving a rules conversation out of a battle report thread.

Basically, we have a rule on p. 76 (part of the Vehicle rules): a unit may not assault a vehicle it cannot hurt.

We have an FAQ, which references p. 20 (basic Assault rules): a unit may assault a unit it cannot hurt.

Opinions?

My own: the FAQ for p. 20 is clarifying a general rule (what a unit can assault). P. 76 remains a specific rule. The FAQ, as it doesn't reference p. 76 at all, does not change the rulebook in this instance.

Yes, in general a unit can assault whatever it likes. In the case of vehicles specifically this is over-ridden by the rule requiring them to be able to hurt it.

Concur.

Rules for unit types take precedence over the basic rules outlined in the movement, shooting and assault sections so the vehicle rule stands. Can't hurt it, can't charge it(except for chariots and walkers)

What Abandon says makes sense to me.

My opinion is this. The FAQ refers to "enemy units". It doesn't refer to "enemy infantry units" or "enemy monstrous creature units" or "enemy vehicle units", just enemy units. It is a blanket statement that encompasses ALL enemy units that can normally be assaulted (except flyers, which can't be assaulted at all). It refers to p.20 because that is where you find the general rules for assault, but is it just restricted to p.20 and only p.20? Does Morale apply only to assault and shooting or can you take morale in the Movement phase (i.e. losing guys to dangerous terrain)? Does taking cover saves only apply to shooting, or can you take cover from a vehicle that explodes in assault? When you get locked in combat, are you only locked in the Assault phase or are you considered locked in the Movement and Shooting as well? My point is that many of the rules are pervasive and is not necessarily restricted to one particular instance, phase or unit type. How does a walker assault? By following the rules of assault on p.20. So if the rule on p.20 says that you need LOS to assault a unit, guess what? Then a walker needs LOS to assault a unit. Likewise, if a FAQ changes a rule on p.20 - such as you can assault a unit you cannot hurt - then the rules should propogate and apply to all units that would follow the rules of assault.

The only thing that would lean me towards still not being able to charge vehicles is that if GW had intended for this new FAQ to now allow you to charge vehicles that you can't hurt wouldn't it just have changed the wording in the update section of the FAQ? Removing this sentence altogether from Pg 76 seems the only way to actually remove this rule as opposed to just answering it by means of FAQ instead... as written currently it's just too ambiguous

The rule on page 20 changes.
The rule on page 76 does not change.

One is more specific than the other - as you said, page 20 is general assault rules. Page 76 is vehicle specific rules. In general you can charge anything. Specifically you can only charge a vehicle you can hurt.

But no rules are actually changed. There are no restrictions on pg 20 about charging a unit you cannot hurt. The FAQ is just a clarification. Not until you get to pg 76 is there a rule that specifically states that you cannot charge a vehicle you cannot hurt.

If the FAQ were an errata to the rules for charging vehicles, then sure. As it stands I play that there is a general principle that you can charge any unit, even if you can't hurt it (so your Guardsmen can charge a Wraithlord and tie it up or whatever), which is then overridden by the specific rule on page 76 that a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt.

Similarly, the general rule that you can't charge after disembarking from a vehicle is overridden by the specific rules for Open-Topped/Assault Vehicles allowing you to charge after disembarking. In many cases a general principle is laid out earlier in the rules and then some units get to break it as defined later in the rules.

Remember,

Codex beats Rulebook,
Can't beats Can,
Specific beats General.

So, following this, a unit may assault a non-vehicular unit it cannot hurt, but it cannot assault a vehicular unit that it can hurt.

Keep the rules up above in your head whenever you play any game with rules. Replace the first one with whatever appropriate (usually cards beat rules.)

BolterUnlimited wrote:
Remember,
Codex beats Rulebook,
General Beats Specific.

Only if there is a conflict.

 Happyjew wrote:

BolterUnlimited wrote:
Remember,
Codex beats Rulebook,
Specific Beats General.

Only if there is a conflict.

That is correct. Only if there is a rules conflict. Like what this is. One is saying you can assault a unit you cannot hurt, but one is saying that you can't assault a vehicle you cannot hurt. Specific beats general.

 Kingsley wrote:
If the FAQ were an errata to the rules for charging vehicles, then sure. As it stands I play that there is a general principle that you can charge any unit, even if you can't hurt it (so your Guardsmen can charge a Wraithlord and tie it up or whatever), which is then overridden by the specific rule on page 76 that a unit cannot charge a vehicle that it cannot hurt.

Similarly, the general rule that you can't charge after disembarking from a vehicle is overridden by the specific rules for Open-Topped/Assault Vehicles allowing you to charge after disembarking. In many cases a general principle is laid out earlier in the rules and then some units get to break it as defined later in the rules.

Isn't a Wraithlord a Walker?

Remember that "Walkers assault, and are assaulted, like infantry models" so the the rule against assaulting vehicles you cannot hurt does not apply to them. The clarification in fact assures you that you can assault a walker with anything capable of assaulting.

 Abandon wrote:
Isn't a Wraithlord a Walker?

No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:
Remember that "Walkers assault, and are assaulted, like infantry models" so the the rule against assaulting vehicles you cannot hurt does not apply to them.

Not true. Walkers are vehicles. You are restricted from assaulting vehicles you cannot hurt.

there would be no point in charging a vehicle you cant hurt anyway as they cannot be tied in combat. You stay in base contact now unlike 5th, but either group can move away whenever they want and since there is no "combat" unless theyre still btb in the assault phase (which should never happen unless its immobilized) the fight continues "as though it were an ongoing assault"

Even if the FAQ allowed you to charge a vehicle you cant hurt, who cares. Its not going to lock anything up, and if you bubblewrap he'll just tankshock yo butt outta his way.

Then again i think Walkers are still affected by the "cannot charge if you cannot hurt" rule since theyre still a vehicle....i think...

Yup, fighting like infantry doesn't change the fact that they are vehicles, or whether or not you can hurt them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
there would be no point in charging a vehicle you cant hurt anyway as they cannot be tied in combat.

Extra movement, from the charge. Gets you an extra 2D6 (or more) across the table.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
Isn't a Wraithlord a Walker?

No.

Don't know anyone that plays Eldar so wasn't sure.

 Happyjew wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abandon wrote:
Remember that "Walkers assault, and are assaulted, like infantry models" so the the rule against assaulting vehicles you cannot hurt does not apply to them.

Not true. Walkers are vehicles. You are restricted from assaulting vehicles you cannot hurt.

"Walkers assault, and are assaulted, like Infantry models, meaning that they make charge moves and can be locked in combat." pg 84

But you assault them like they are infantry. Nothing preventing you from assaulting infantry you can't hurt.

 Abandon wrote:
But you assault them like they are infantry. Nothing preventing you from assaulting infantry you can't hurt.

You also don't roll armour pen against infantry. Have fun when it comes time to try to wound your opponent's dreadnought...

They fight like infantry. That doesn't change the fact that they are vehicles.

 insaniak wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
But you assault them like they are infantry. Nothing preventing you from assaulting infantry you can't hurt.

You also don't roll armour pen against infantry. Have fun when it comes time to try to wound your opponent's dreadnought...

They fight like infantry. That doesn't change the fact that they are vehicles.

True, but that can be tied up. I'd rather have them killing 2-3 hormagaunts every turn than murdering two hand-fulls at a time with shooting. Depending on the walker of course.

Ha, despite me charging a random marine last night for an extra 8 inches of movement i totally spaced out that being a reason to charge a vehicle you cant hurt. Good point.

Walkers are still labeled as vehicles, the infantry part says they behave like it. The rules on chargings are talking about unit types. I dont run walkers so not 100% sure but arent walkers labeled WALKER not WALKER, INFANTRY?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Ha, despite me charging a random marine last night for an extra 8 inches of movement i totally spaced out that being a reason to charge a vehicle you cant hurt. Good point.

Walkers are still labeled as vehicles, the infantry part says they behave like it. The rules on chargings are talking about unit types. I dont run walkers so not 100% sure but arent walkers labeled WALKER not WALKER, INFANTRY?

From memory they are "Vehicle (Walker)". Sometimes they are "Vehicle (Walker, Open-topped)".

Which means they still follow vehicle rules with the exceptions in the page talking about how they "behave" but are not labeled as. Thus meaning they cannot be assaulted if you cannot hurt them, per vehicle rules.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Which means they still follow vehicle rules with the exceptions in the page talking about how they "behave" but are not labeled as. Thus meaning they cannot be assaulted if you cannot hurt them, per vehicle rules.

Saying they cannot be charged because they are a vehicle is not in line with the "just like infantry" part.

"Walkers assault, and are assaulted, like Infantry models, meaning that they make charge moves and can be locked in combat." pg 84

If you treat them like a vehicle you are not treating them like infantry. For all intents and purposes regarding assaulting and being assaulted this line relabels them as infantry. See my sig.

 Abandon wrote:
If you treat them like a vehicle you are not treating them like infantry. For all intents and purposes regarding assaulting and being assaulted this line relabels them as infantry. See my sig.

Which, again, means you can't actually ever hurt a walker in close combat, since there is no possible way to wound them...

They fight in close combat like infantry, meaning that they are locked in combat and fight with their WS. It doesn't make them not vehicles, otherwise resolving hits against them is impossible.

I'm just saying they can be charged like infantry even if you can't pen their front. You are then locked in CC with something you can't pen and will eventually murder you. Generally not even a good idea but depending on the situation it might be useful.

It's off-topic so I'll just leave it at that. We can discuss that thought in another thread if you like but I will not mention it again here.

 Abandon wrote:
I'm just saying they can be charged like infantry even if you can't pen their front.

Except you can't, because you can't assault a vehicle that you can't hurt.

You can not assault a vehicle you can not hurt, including a walker.

Abandon, your line of thinking makes Blood Angel Death Company Dreadnoughts scoring units.

Which they can not because they are still vehicles.

Other than airmang, has anyone bothered to read p.20? Or for that matter, the whole chapter on Assault?

There is nothing there that prohibits you from assaulting a unit that you cannot hurt. There is only the rule where you can choose to fail morale in a combat with a unit you cannot hurt.

As a matter of fact, there is nothing about assaulting a unit you can't hurt until the vehicle rules on p.76.


So I ask you, what is the point of the FAQ if it refers to a rule that is not there?