1500pt IG+Elysian foot/artillery list

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**Talore**

EDIT: This list is now outdated! New list is further down the thread, here!

Main Detachment: IG

CCS 60
-2 snipers {or} plasma pistol

PCS 30
IS 50
IS 50
Sabre Turret Squad 2x52
-2 LC
-2 additional crewmen
Sabre Turret Squad 2x52
-2 LC
-2 additional crewmen

PCS 30
IS 50
IS 50
Sabre Turret Squad 2x42
-2 AC
-2 additional crewmen
Sabre Turret Squad 2x42
-2 AC
-2 additional crewmen

Marbo 65

Artillery Carriage 2x75
Artillery Carriage 2x75

Allied Detachment: Elysians

CCS 100
-4 Meltagun
PCS 73
-Locator Beacon
-4 flamer
-Aux GL
IS 73
-Meltagun
-Aux GL
IS 73
-Meltagun
-Aux GL
HWS 100
-3 ML

=1500

The idea is to get up a defensive line with the main detachment, defending the stationary weapons and holding objectives, where the Elysians + Marbo come in to attack everything that it attempting to hide from the gunline and take enemy and neutral objectives. The Auxiliary Grenade Launchers are because I had 9 points left from the awkward costs of additional sabre crewmen and I didn't want to leave any points un-spent.

It is a foot list, although if I can't manage to scratch-build the artillery carriages then I might get 2 LRBTs and stick them in cover. Any thoughts, particularly about the balance of anti-horde/elite/vehicle/tank weaponry, would be appreciated.

1) This is my first list ever made. I have not played before. It is not all built.
2) This list is not set in stone.
3) I do not wish to play competitively.
4) No I don't want fliers.

**Peregrine**

Too much infantry, too little shooting. Way too many of your points are tied up in squads that are bringing little more than lasguns (or, in the case of the codex half, literally nothing but lasguns) instead of in units that actually contribute. Consolidate the two codex platoons into a single platoon (keeping the Sabres, of course, they're the only thing of value in that platoon) and take some vets in a Vendetta for your second troops choice.

End result: you're going to find that random unsupported T3/no-save infantry get tabled very quickly in an edition where many people think that vehicles are obsolete and you should focus on killing infantry.

Talore wrote:
3) I do not wish to play competitively.

You're taking LC Sabres and earthshakers, the two most hated "competitive" units FW makes. Whether or not that's your intent this is going to be seen as a competitive list, so you might as well build it right.

4) No I don't want fliers.

Then why are you playing Elysians? The whole point of the Elysian list is that you can take a fluffy air cav list with lots of flyers without the severe limitation of only having three fast attack slots to put them in. An "Elysian" list without flyers is like taking a C:SM list without bolters.

**Talore**

Peregrine wrote:
Too much infantry, too little shooting. Way too many of your points are tied up in squads that are bringing little more than lasguns (or, in the case of the codex half, literally nothing but lasguns) instead of in units that actually contribute. Consolidate the two codex platoons into a single platoon (keeping the Sabres, of course, they're the only thing of value in that platoon) and take some vets in a Vendetta for your second troops choice.

End result: you're going to find that random unsupported T3/no-save infantry get tabled very quickly in an edition where many people think that vehicles are obsolete and you should focus on killing infantry.

I specifically said that I'm not using fliers, so this is unhelpful.

Peregrine wrote:
Talore wrote:
3) I do not wish to play competitively.

You're taking LC Sabres and earthshakers, the two most hated "competitive" units FW makes. Whether or not that's your intent this is going to be seen as a competitive list, so you might as well build it right.

I am not playing competitively. I'm playing with friends and people I can actually interact with on a human level.

Peregrine wrote:
4) No I don't want fliers.

Then why are you playing Elysians? The whole point of the Elysian list is that you can take a fluffy air cav list with lots of flyers without the severe limitation of only having three fast attack slots to put them in. An "Elysian" list without flyers is like taking a C:SM list without bolters.

The whole point of taking Elysians in this instance was to have deep striking infantry. I'm modelling an Imperial Guard legion that fights on a forested death world, and they heavily utilize stealth. All the soldiers are in ghillie suits, and their 'deep striking' is flavoured like Marbo's in that they're just emerging from deep cover, foxholes, etc. instead of dropping from the sky. I'm taking the actual unique elements from the book instead of 'lol more fliers.'

The typical engagement would be a defensive line of dug-in soldiers, attempting to ambush an enemy force. After the initial shots are fired and the enemy force is pinned or at least oriented against an attack from one side, the deep-cover soldiers can emerge from all sides or even in the middle of the enemy force and sew chaos, flushing enemies from cover and taking their objectives. I hope to craft narratives with friends through flavourful armies and narration both in terrain, scenarios, and campaigns.

**andtheyshallknownofear**

You're beautiful. This list looks decent to me, don't know a lot of the units you're using (ex. sabres and gun carriages) but it looks fun to play. Props for not bending to meta gaming donkey-caves, which there are all to much of in the hobby these days.

**Talore**

andtheyshallknownofear wrote:
You're beautiful. This list looks decent to me, don't know a lot of the units you're using (ex. sabres and gun carriages) but it looks fun to play. Props for not bending to meta gaming donkey-caves, which there are all to much of in the hobby these days.

Well I don't really care about what other people do, I'm looking to play the game to be social and have fun. I've been disabled for over a year now with a neurological condition, so I can't leave the house often which means that I want to have the most social fun I can with 40k. So if I can play with friends at the LGS, make some new ones, and come up with some memorable stories, that's fine by me.

If people want to be competitive and utilize naught but the most effective units then more power to them, if that's how they have fun. Personally I find it a bit uninteresting, though.

**Peregrine**

Talore wrote:
I specifically said that I'm not using fliers, so this is unhelpful.

Then replace the melta vets in a Vendetta with a penal legion, or anything that isn't spending hundreds of points on redundant lasguns. You can put weird limits on yourself and refuse to take flyers, but right now you have way too little firepower for a 1500 point list and it's all in small fragile squads that your opponent can wipe off the table without much effort. Virtually all of your list's shooting is concentrated in the sabres and earthshakers with your infantry doing little more than dying.

I am not playing competitively. I'm playing with friends and people I can actually interact with on a human level.

Any list with sabres and earthshaker guns is a competitive list according to many people. It doesn't matter what your intent is, as soon as they see those units in your list they will consider it a competitive (and overpowered) list. That is, if they don't refuse to play against you entirely for bringing the most overpowered FW units. So you might as well at least bring a good competitive list instead of getting all of the drawbacks but none of the benefits.

Also, playing with friends and people you can interact with on a human level does not have anything to do with the strength of your list. Plenty of people have fun competitive games with their friends.

The whole point of taking Elysians in this instance was to have deep striking infantry. I'm modelling an Imperial Guard legion that fights on a forested death world, and they heavily utilize stealth. All the soldiers are in ghillie suits, and their 'deep striking' is flavoured like Marbo's in that they're just emerging from deep cover, foxholes, etc. instead of dropping from the sky. I'm taking the actual unique elements from the book instead of 'lol more fliers.'

The typical engagement would be a defensive line of dug-in soldiers, attempting to ambush an enemy force. After the initial shots are fired and the enemy force is pinned or at least oriented against an attack from one side, the deep-cover soldiers can emerge from all sides or even in the middle of the enemy force and sew chaos, flushing enemies from cover and taking their objectives. I hope to craft narratives with friends through flavourful armies and narration both in terrain, scenarios, and campaigns.

And this is exactly why you want to have flyers: a stealth-focused army like that would not be able to use tanks effectively (too hard to hide), which means aircraft for their main firepower. Adding Avengers and Vultures to your army would be extremely fluffy, and TBH without those flyers your fluff justification is pretty bad.

**Talore**

Peregrine wrote:

Then replace the melta vets in a Vendetta with a penal legion, or anything that isn't spending hundreds of points on redundant lasguns.

Well, I think I would still take naked veterans over a penal legion squad. Tweaking the troops choice is something I can try to do, though. My initial thoughts in the number of troops was to make sure the gun crews don't get ganked right away, providing anti-infantry firepower and a tarpit to delay advances. I am obviously inexperienced though, and although I have done a lot of reading I've never really seen or read of someone playing an army like mine.

Peregrine wrote:

Any list with sabres and earthshaker guns is a competitive list according to many people. It doesn't matter what your intent is, as soon as they see those units in your list they will consider it a competitive (and overpowered) list. That is, if they don't refuse to play against you entirely for bringing the most overpowered FW units. So you might as well at least bring a good competitive list instead of getting all of the drawbacks but none of the benefits.

Also, playing with friends and people you can interact with on a human level does not have anything to do with the strength of your list. Plenty of people have fun competitive games with their friends.

lol okay, pretty sure I can handle social interaction with friends.

Peregrine wrote:

And this is exactly why you want to have flyers: a stealth-focused army like that would not be able to use tanks effectively (too hard to hide), which means aircraft for their main firepower. Adding Avengers and Vultures to your army would be extremely fluffy, and TBH without those flyers your fluff justification is pretty bad.

Literally nothing you just said here makes sense. Plus you don't even know the full fluff of my army, so how can you already judge it?

**Peregrine**

Talore wrote:
My initial thoughts in the number of troops was to make sure the gun crews don't get ganked right away, providing anti-infantry firepower and a tarpit to delay advances.

The problem is that you have way more basic infantry with lasguns than you need for that role. A single platoon with 2-3 squads is plenty. And you need to put heavy and special weapons in those squads, a melta and AC is a cheap way of making those squads contribute something before they die.

lol okay, pretty sure I can handle social interaction with friends.

I think you just don't understand the sheer hatred those two units can generate, probably because you're inexperienced. For many people showing up with sabres and earthshakers is at the same level as showing up with Necron flyerspam or 3x Helldrakes.

Literally nothing you just said here makes sense. Plus you don't even know the full fluff of my army, so how can you already judge it?

It's simple: every army needs big guns, whatever unit they're mounted on. And a stealth-focused army would not be using tanks (nothing like a huge loud tank to give away your stealthy ambush) or artillery carriages (immobile and take way too long to set up to be used in an ambush), especially on a forested death world where you'd have a hard time even getting a earthshaker and towing vehicle into position without cutting down all of the trees in its path. So the answer is that the light infantry would carry radios and call in air strikes once the ambush begins, with the flyers able to move around freely above the trees.

And I can judge it because I know what a "real" army with your strategy would take, and the only reason you're not taking it is some bizarre self-imposed rule about not using flyers.

**Talore**

Peregrine wrote:
Talore wrote:
My initial thoughts in the number of troops was to make sure the gun crews don't get ganked right away, providing anti-infantry firepower and a tarpit to delay advances.

The problem is that you have way more basic infantry with lasguns than you need for that role. A single platoon with 2-3 squads is plenty. And you need to put heavy and special weapons in those squads, a melta and AC is a cheap way of making those squads contribute something before they die.

This is helpful. I initially tried to make everything barebones as I could to fit in more units and more support weapons, but if I have an excess then I can properly outfit the others and maybe some other things with the leftover points.

It's simple: every army needs big guns, whatever unit they're mounted on. And a stealth-focused army would not be using tanks (nothing like a huge loud tank to give away your stealthy ambush) or artillery carriages (immobile and take way too long to set up to be used in an ambush), especially on a forested death world where you'd have a hard time even getting a earthshaker and towing vehicle into position without cutting down all of the trees in its path. So the answer is that the light infantry would carry radios and call in air strikes once the ambush begins, with the flyers able to move around freely above the trees.

And I can judge it because I know what a "real" army with your strategy would take, and the only reason you're not taking it is some bizarre self-imposed rule about not using flyers.

Good thing 40k isn't remotely related to reality, huh? Stop spamming this, I could not care less. I asked for advice on being able to handle different enemy units, not for you to insult me about something you know almost nothing about.

**Peregrine**

Talore wrote:
This is helpful. I initially tried to make everything barebones as I could to fit in more units and more support weapons, but if I have an excess then I can properly outfit the others and maybe some other things with the leftover points.

And this is a bad strategy. One unit with proper guns is better than two units with nothing but lasguns. You want to fit in as much as you can, but not at the expense of bringing viable threats.

Good thing 40k isn't remotely related to reality, huh?

So why invent fluff at all? Fluff only has value if it's believable, and your description of your army's fluff combined with a blanket refusal to include flyers is not believable. It very clearly has nothing to do with whether flyers are fluffy or not, just a bizarre assumption that flyers are "too competitive" or some similar arbitrary rule.

I asked for advice on being able to handle different enemy units

And the advice is to bring flyers. Flyers are the only way to get the firepower you need without sacrificing the theme of your army. Without them you have two choices:

1) Bring more sabres and earthshakers, making your list even more "competitive" and completely massacring anyone who brings a "casual" list.

or

2) Lose the game because you have a bunch of lasguns and no real offensive threats besides the sabres and earthshakers.

The fact that you don't like the advice doesn't make it any less true.

**Mr.Omega**

Peregrine- you're not gaining any ground here. You can't ram your opinion down his throat, no matter how truthful and correct you believe it to be.

The fact is that he has stated again and again that he does not want to use flyers, full stop. I don't really want to backseat moderate here but you're supposed to be inclined to accept that. The slippery slope argument that he should go fully competitive because his list resembles one isn't helping either.

**Talore**

Maybe I'm not taking fliers because I already have half the models in the list from trading in my old D&D books to the local game store, and I can get the rest of the infantry models for under $50 which is pretty much all I can afford as someone who is disabled and can't make money?

Maybe in addition to the above, I can easily convert and scratchbuild things like gun emplacements from existing bits and plasticard, and while converting WW2 tanks to Leman Russes is easy, scratchbuilding fliers is not?

Maybe the extensive backstory for my regiment which I have not fully shared here actually makes perfect sense why I don't have fliers, my regiment actually being a heretical former penal legion sent to colonize and form a mining operation on Space Australia, so while they can produce some things like melta equipment, mining technology, and basic military and logistical equipment in the factories before the rebellion, they are incapable of building sophisticated aircraft and are stranded on their planet?

Maybe I like the aesthetics of a light infantry company, especially one that has a network of underground railways to connect the various subterranean settlements combined with mining equipment that allows them to transport things like gun batteries below the surface to any point where the regiment would choose to set up and ambush the enemy?

Maybe I realise that engagement ranges are ridiculous as displayed on the tabletop so even if there weren't a good reason why my guys could set up gun batteries innawoods near battle sites, a light infantry company could still use artillery as heavy support rather than needing to rely on fliers which are not remotely stealthy at all because they could be set up miles and miles away?

Maybe the same goes for tanks even if I decided to use some, as I know that even in WW2 engagement ranges took place around 2km between tanks, and that even with various degrees of treeline, between spotters and technology it would be easy for a tank to conceal itself at reasonable engagement ranges? *gasp* you can even take camo netting for tanks!

Maybe I find fliers uninteresting to play with? What if they don't look like fun to me?

Maybe any or all of the above apply to me (in addition to other factors) and that even one of them would be a good reason to not use fliers? Maybe people should just respect what an OP says?

Who knows? Shocking to think that someone would not take fliers for a reason other than irrationally hating a 'competitive' unit even if they have allegedly equally or even more competitive units in their list.

**Farseer Faenyin**

As much as I can understand the want to not play flyers and most of your other points, Talore...I do have to agree with Peregrine on one thing. The Sabres.

Sabres are seen as the TFG item to take multiples of if you want to invalidate a part of the game others see as fun(flyers). In a casual 'social' environment with friends, being a fluff-player is an amazing idea. I do the same thing, I play Mech Eldar and always have. Currently I have to tone down my lists because Mech Eldar have now become one of two VERY competitive styles of play for Eldar.

Just be aware that when you take an item that is seen as one of the best investments in points currently available and a reason why many people do not allow FW in tournaments or even casual play, you may find the game less 'social' quickly because of the reduced fun had by all.

**Talore**

Right, I am conscious of this. They are just converted from the heavy weapon team sprues, so if they do become something that is inhibiting fun for either myself or my opponent I can always just use them as heavy weapons teams. That's the beauty of just playing casually, is that we can figure out what is fun to play and what isn't. As I haven't built much yet, I'm trying to see what I can initially make as a general sort of list, but there is still a lot of flexibility possible for me.

I do have an open mind and I am concerned about both me and my opponent having fun before worrying about who is going to win or not.

If someone is having a problem with the platforms even after the rest of my army is kind of sub-optimal, we can work together to figure out something that is more satisfying.

**Talore**

So, after meeting with some members of the local 40k club, they gave me the run-down on how things work around there. Forge World is A-OK. Some of these guys have been playing since Rogue Trader and have massive collections. A lot of them also go to tournaments, but for random games people will either be testing out new things or trying out more fun lists. Very much a flavour and fun > competition environment. So after reviewing exactly what bits and models I will have after finalizing my initial purchases, I've tweaked the first list presented to better fit with my resources and themes.

As before, none of this is competitive, and I am already aware that it is extra heretical. I want to get a feel for some of the different tools IG lists and the game in general have to offer. Things will likely change when I have more money and I get more experience for what I like to play and what I don't like to play, but for now this is what I'm going with. I also plan on making my collection more flexible in the future, with additional lists for a more Elysian-heavy list, urban/close combat lists, at least one list with a Primaris Psyker, and maybe lists with armoured support, breaching drills, rough riders, ratlings, or even melee foot blobs! The possibilities are endless.

Feel free to comment/froth at the mouth as you please

Main Detachment: IG

CCS 100
-Lascannon Team
-Master of Ordnance

Veterans 85
-3 Sniper Rifles

PCS 40
-Power Axe
-Laspistols
IS 60
-HB
IS 60
-HB
IS 60
-HB
Sabre Turret Squad 2x42
-2 AC
-2 additional crewmen
Sabre Turret Squad 2x42
-2 AC
-2 additional crewmen
Sabre Turret Squad 2x52
-2 LC
-2 additional crewmen
Sabre Turret Squad 2x52
-2 LC
-2 additional crewmen

Marbo 65

Artillery Carriage 2x75
{Manticore Platform 100}
{or}
{Field Artillery Battery 2x50}

Allied Detachment: Elysians

CCS 110
-4 Meltagun
PCS 48
-Meltabombs
-Aux GL
IS 68
-Flamer
-Aux GL
IS 68
-Flamer
-Aux GL
HWS 100
-3 ML

=1500