Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Heard this rumour so checked our the faq.
Just as the title says really... what the hell???
So we are considered one of the most overcosted dexes. We pay ridiculous points on our vehicles for fast. BUT they now are not fast. For no good reason. Not only utterly destroying one type of BA build but also making units from the dex even more overcosted than they already are. Either somebody gave a chump at GW who has never encountered BA in the game the faq to write and they decided to do no research, or GW have intentionally screwed over BA players for no apparent reason. Its not like we weren't already fighting for the dregs with the ork dex.
I was always a touch annoyed that GW valued fast on vulnerable non skimming vehicles so highly. But now we pay all those points and don't even get it. WHAT THE #*!^@#!!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tri las pred:
SM - 140pts
BA - 180pts
Exactly the same now

Vindicator
SM - 125pts
BA - 145pts
Exactly the same now

Auto-las pred
SM - 115pts
BA - 135pts
Exactly the same now

Razorback with AC/tl las/las-plas
SM - 75pts
BA - 90pts
Exactly the same now

Rhino
SM - 35pts
BA - 50pts
Exactly the same now

Whirlwind (doesn't hardly make a difference for this one - just putting it in there)
SM - 65pts
BA - 90pts
Exactly the same now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was coming round to 7th until I saw this absolutely un-thought-through mess.

GK got the same list, including Vindicators and Whirlwinds (which are not in the codex). The most logical explanation is that whoever was writing the FAQs copy/pasted the vehicle list for all the SM factions and forgot that BA have variations on the Rhino chassis vehicles.

If you play against sensible opponents (I know, sometimes easier said than done) this evidence will hopefully convince them to let you play them as Fast.

Generally BA vehicles are only 5-10pts more than anyone else's... but yeah, I hadn't noticed that. Wow. That's just mind-bogglingly stupid GW.

But why would they copy paste and remember the Baal predator and nothing else? This is either intentional and very poorly thought out or being so careless that it may as well not have been faq'd at all with all the problems it's caused.

Seriously? I haven't seen a BA player use any of these since the codex first dropped. Mephiston is still overpowered. You still have Death Company. You can still put FNP on a unit of assault termies. You can still DS your Land Raiders. You codex is still filthy with ridiculous overpowered B.S. that you get dirt cheap or free that no one else has. Don't be so sensitive. There are lots of armies who still have it worse. You BA players are so sensitive about never being able to be Ultramarines.

As it happened from SM 5th to SM 6th, BA and SW will get discounts when their new codexes hit the shelves. But I don't understand the removal of Fast... probably they'll ge some kind of special rule that let's vehicles move up to Combat Speed and fire all weapons at BS full, or 2 at Cruising Speed. You know, just like Whie Scars has a not-Skilled Rider

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
Seriously? I haven't seen a BA player use any of these since the codex first dropped. Mephiston is still overpowered. You still have Death Company. You can still put FNP on a unit of assault termies. You can still DS your Land Raiders. You codex is still filthy with ridiculous overpowered B.S. that you get dirt cheap or free that no one else has. Don't be so sensitive. There are lots of armies who still have it worse. You BA players are so sensitive about never being able to be Ultramarines.

Not sure if serious...

Well, the same FAQ removed IC status from all of the guys that had it .... so, I think I will ignore this little snafu that GW created and still use my stuff as fast and my IC as IC.

Satire.

And a bit of schadenfreude.

thankfully the BA codex is rumored to be soonish

I am choosing to believe it is a mistake and playing it the way it has always been.

Well, aside from wargear options (like the ork one saying Warpheads are a ML2 upgrade for 25pts) when has GW ever modified points costs for a unit? None far as i know. Probably out of fear someone would use the FAQ for their rules instead of the codex....which i think is kinda stupid a---wait this is gw nvm that fits perfectly lol.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if this was the next sign of Blood Angels and Space Wolves both getting rolled into the Vanilla Marine book.

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
Seriously? I haven't seen a BA player use any of these since the codex first dropped. Mephiston is still overpowered. You still have Death Company. You can still put FNP on a unit of assault termies. You can still DS your Land Raiders. You codex is still filthy with ridiculous overpowered B.S. that you get dirt cheap or free that no one else has. Don't be so sensitive. There are lots of armies who still have it worse. You BA players are so sensitive about never being able to be Ultramarines.

Blood Angels are univerally the worst of the Marines, even with fast vehicles. Mephiston is shot down easily, while I have never seen a BA army deepstrike a land raider. There's literally no benefit to it! You get close in melta range without being able to deliver cargo to assault. BA are up there with Orks as the LEAST cheesy army out there! That hurt to read because all of their stuff was designed for 5th edition, and therefore now sucks.

FnP on terminators is ok... not for the price they pay though. Death Company are horribly overcosted and die with laughable ease.

You don't need Fast vehicles to forge a narrative, guys. Chill out.

Why not just agree with your opponent to pay the same points for BA vehicles as their vanilla counterparts until the BA codex comes out?

Relapse wrote:
Why not just agree with your opponent to pay the same points for BA vehicles as their vanilla counterparts until the BA codex comes out?

Why not ask the company responsible for publishing the point costs to include this in a handy, online-accessed Frequently Asked Questions or Errata page? You know, so you could actually play a pick-up game with your Blood Angels army rather than being obliged to have a pre-selected opponent?

The degree to which you guys are willing to bend over backwards for gak-terrible rules is kind of hilarious, once you've managed to leave the cult and get an outsider's perspective.

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Well, the same FAQ removed IC status from all of the guys that had it ....

No, it didn't.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
But why would they copy paste and remember the Baal predator and nothing else? This is either intentional and very poorly thought out or being so careless that it may as well not have been faq'd at all with all the problems it's caused.

I'm leaning towards the latter. They left out tons of stuff from the 6E FAQ's that should have been left in.

Really it appears as if these were written by someone who doesn't actually play the game and nobody did any double-checking.

 jifel wrote:

 Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
Seriously? I haven't seen a BA player use any of these since the codex first dropped. Mephiston is still overpowered. You still have Death Company. You can still put FNP on a unit of assault termies. You can still DS your Land Raiders. You codex is still filthy with ridiculous overpowered B.S. that you get dirt cheap or free that no one else has. Don't be so sensitive. There are lots of armies who still have it worse. You BA players are so sensitive about never being able to be Ultramarines.

Blood Angels are univerally the worst of the Marines, even with fast vehicles. Mephiston is shot down easily, while I have never seen a BA army deepstrike a land raider. There's literally no benefit to it! You get close in melta range without being able to deliver cargo to assault. BA are up there with Orks as the LEAST cheesy army out there! That hurt to read because all of their stuff was designed for 5th edition, and therefore now sucks.

FnP on terminators is ok... not for the price they pay though. Death Company are horribly overcosted and die with laughable ease.

He...wasn't serious sir....He even pointed it out a few posts above yours.

This is kind of my insane, even with a new codex on the way. The least they could do was leave the BA some hope until then. I can't imagine any opponent refusing to let you use the codex cost and Fast or the SM cost without Fast, but still.

7th and these FAQs have convinced me that GW just don't give a gak.

 Paradigm wrote:
This is kind of my insane, even with a new codex on the way. The least they could do was leave the BA some hope until then. I can't imagine any opponent refusing to let you use the codex cost and Fast or the SM cost without Fast, but still.

7th and these FAQs have convinced me that GW just don't give a gak.

I'm not sure what game the designers of 40k are playing in house, but it sure as hell isn't the kind of game the playerbase is actually playing. Otherwise they would have spotted things like it being possible to make Be'Lakor more or less invincible with invisibility and the grimoire or Howling Banshees being just this side of unusable for several editions straight by now.

 Kain wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
This is kind of my insane, even with a new codex on the way. The least they could do was leave the BA some hope until then. I can't imagine any opponent refusing to let you use the codex cost and Fast or the SM cost without Fast, but still.

7th and these FAQs have convinced me that GW just don't give a gak.

I'm not sure what game the designers of 40k are playing in house, but it sure as hell isn't the kind of game the playerbase is actually playing. Otherwise they would have spotted things like it being possible to make Be'Lakor more or less invincible with invisibility and the grimoire or Howling Banshees being just this side of unusable for several editions straight by now.

I can'ẗ believe they fed us the daemon factory and just thought "yeah, this sounds fair!" I can understand that balancing is a hard thing to do, so I accept minor differences in balance, but in 40k GW is pitting giants against ants and patting themselves on the backs at a job well done.
It's actually quite fluffy though to keep summoning daemons, so I thought about how to balance it. If the daemons came in through deepstrike rules after being summoned, were allowed to do everything (assault, shoot, etc etc) but automatically got pulled back in to the warp at the start of your next Psychic phase, I actually believe they would be quite balanced.

Now think about what an ENORMOUS nerf that is to them compared to now, and then realise that I'm suggesting this nerf, without any irony, to bring them closer to a proper balance, and that I would STILL consider it powerful magic. I can't believe how incredibly broken the daemon factory is right now. I just can't. It is beyond my reasoning to fathom that a company with as much experience as GW would allow something like this.

 Purifier wrote:

I can'ẗ believe they fed us the daemon factory and just thought "yeah, this sounds fair!" I can understand that balancing is a hard thing to do, so I accept minor differences in balance, but in 40k GW is pitting giants against ants and patting themselves on the backs at a job well done.
It's actually quite fluffy though to keep summoning daemons, so I thought about how to balance it. If the daemons came in through deepstrike rules after being summoned, were allowed to do everything (assault, shoot, etc etc) but automatically got pulled back in to the warp at the start of your next Psychic phase, I actually believe they would be quite balanced.

Now think about what an ENORMOUS nerf that is to them compared to now, and then realise that I'm suggesting this nerf, without any irony, to bring them closer to a proper balance, and that I would STILL consider it powerful magic. I can't believe how incredibly broken the daemon factory is right now. I just can't. It is beyond my reasoning to fathom that a company with as much experience as GW would allow something like this.

That would be fair, as would limiting the number of summons game/turn.

As much as it's an abbration of balance, it's also a horrific crime against the background. Any game where the the chief librarian of the Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Ultramarines (you know, the guys trained their whole lives against the power of the warp) can turn themselves into a Greater Demon with no real penalty is not one I want a part of.

 Purifier wrote:

 Kain wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
This is kind of my insane, even with a new codex on the way. The least they could do was leave the BA some hope until then. I can't imagine any opponent refusing to let you use the codex cost and Fast or the SM cost without Fast, but still.

7th and these FAQs have convinced me that GW just don't give a gak.

I'm not sure what game the designers of 40k are playing in house, but it sure as hell isn't the kind of game the playerbase is actually playing. Otherwise they would have spotted things like it being possible to make Be'Lakor more or less invincible with invisibility and the grimoire or Howling Banshees being just this side of unusable for several editions straight by now.

I can'ẗ believe they fed us the daemon factory and just thought "yeah, this sounds fair!" I can understand that balancing is a hard thing to do, so I accept minor differences in balance, but in 40k GW is pitting giants against ants and patting themselves on the backs at a job well done.
It's actually quite fluffy though to keep summoning daemons, so I thought about how to balance it. If the daemons came in through deepstrike rules after being summoned, were allowed to do everything (assault, shoot, etc etc) but automatically got pulled back in to the warp at the start of your next Psychic phase, I actually believe they would be quite balanced.

Now think about what an ENORMOUS nerf that is to them compared to now, and then realise that I'm suggesting this nerf, without any irony, to bring them closer to a proper balance, and that I would STILL consider it powerful magic. I can't believe how incredibly broken the daemon factory is right now. I just can't. It is beyond my reasoning to fathom that a company with as much experience as GW would allow something like this.

I thought GW learned something of a lesson when they made Tervigon spam much less viable outside of Valedor's special apoc-only formation. But even then, a ten tervigon list at 2k points basically had nothing but tervigons and termagants and a few token other units. And ultimately, Tervigon spawning drops off sharply as the game goes on as they double out, and even if they're spitting out a hundred models a turn, they're still termagants at the end of the day. Anyone in the game can kill termagants by the bucket load It wasn't super-powerful, just exceedingly tedious to play against (also if you roll up for purge the alien you may as well have just forfeit the game).

But Daemon factory can greatly outproduce endless pooping termagants, is far more versatile, produces much stronger units, and offer the spawned units much better buffs. And unlike Endless pooping termagants, Daemon Factory can be exponential.

Neither Scarab farm nor endless termagants is anywhere near as ridiculous.

 Kain wrote:
Daemon Factory can be exponential.

This is really what makes it scary for real. The fact that pink horrors can spawn more pink horrors that can spawn more pink horrors. But even without that, it's just silly.

 Purifier wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Daemon Factory can be exponential.

This is really what makes it scary for real. The fact that pink horrors can spawn more pink horrors that can spawn more pink horrors. But even without that, it's just silly.

Yeah if Spyders or Tervigons could spawn more Spyders and Tervigons (along with half of the Necron and Tyranid codexes), that'd be ridiculous. If nearly half of the Tyranid and Necron codexes could spawn more units, including some of the most easily massed units in their codexes, then you have what the Daemon Factory is in essence.

Except they aren't half as ridiculous in the Psyker phase.

 Thud wrote:

 OIIIIIIO wrote:
Well, the same FAQ removed IC status from all of the guys that had it ....

No, it didn't.

For some reason people are assuming that since the FAQ says the various HQs are Infantry (Character) they no longer have the IC special rule. There was a topic in both General and YMDC by the same guy on this and he was corrected in both.

 Triton wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Why not just agree with your opponent to pay the same points for BA vehicles as their vanilla counterparts until the BA codex comes out?

Why not ask the company responsible for publishing the point costs to include this in a handy, online-accessed Frequently Asked Questions or Errata page? You know, so you could actually play a pick-up game with your Blood Angels army rather than being obliged to have a pre-selected opponent?

The degree to which you guys are willing to bend over backwards for gak-terrible rules is kind of hilarious, once you've managed to leave the cult and get an outsider's perspective.

Easy, trigger.I agree that maybe it could have been handled a lot better, but I'm just thinking until the codex comes out that it might be an option. Is there something about BA in close combat that getting them across the table faster makes the vehicles more expensive?

 Purifier wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Daemon Factory can be exponential.

This is really what makes it scary for real. The fact that pink horrors can spawn more pink horrors that can spawn more pink horrors. But even without that, it's just silly.

Well I for one would love to see someone pull this off. Losing the game would be nothing to watching them lay down all those pink horrors knowing how much they lost from their wallet to GW.

Of course I would be a hardcore donkey-cave about it and require them to actually use pink horrors.