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Thought I'd start this thread due to the ammount of kickstarters recently that have come under more intense scrutiny from the comunity as a whole.

Whether it be scale, material or just full transparency alot of potential backers are asking more questions before they part with their cash, which imho is only a good thing.

The question is what do you need to hear from a ks before you pledge, do such things as mentioned above really affect your pledging or like me do you sometimes get 'shiny eye syndrome' and pledge with a lot of faith?

Basically what gets you to pledge and what stops you? Do you think that were holding companies to a higher standard than a year ago?

Here is my KS algorithm:

10: If the producers are known offenders* I don't bother, else goto 20:
20: If the shinies make me drool goto 30, else I don't bother.
30: If material is PVC I don't bother, else goto 40
40: If the price seems fair given the material AND perceived quality goto 50, else I don't bother
50: If shipping is way out of wack I don't bother, else goto 60
60: Put down a placeholder pledge then goto 70
70: If the producers have a good history** goto 80, else goto 90
80: Wait a week then goto 90
90: If the information given in the KS and/or forums = sufficient goto 110, else goto 100
100: Ask questions then goto 90
110: If the information given in the KS and/or forums is satisfactory*** goto 130, else goto 120
120 ull the pledge.
130: Hope that your bet will pay off and stay on the KS.

*known offenders means companies that have burned others and/or myself by promising something they could not deliver - be it at all or to a claimed quality.

**good history in your own book, or by word of mouth from someone you trust who you know looks for the same things you do.

***Satisfactory in the following: Not rude, not deceitful and grounded in facts that most likely point to an actual product.

I have to put WGF out there as a red flag. Unless the creator has put down a fulfillment time far into the future, I'm not willing to go through the now familiar rigmarole of delays. The end product will probably be purchased at retail, but no interest free loan that long in advance from me.

I've really backed away from KS so far this year, not sure if accountability is the right word for it, but I've gotten "burned" with past kickstarters shipping EXTREMELY late. Its to the point know where the KS has to offer a MAJOR discount off MSRP for me to really bother with it. I'm just tired of pledging for a kickstart, getting really excited for it, then watching delay after delay eat away at my excitement. Then by the time the product actually ships I no longer have any interest in it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
I have to put WGF out there as a red flag. Unless the creator has put down a fulfillment time far into the future, I'm not willing to go through the now familiar rigmarole of delays. The end product will probably be purchased at retail, but no interest free loan that long in advance from me.

basically this, whether its really WGF's fault or not....WGF is a common factor is most of the seriously delayed KSing i've been a part of

Or its in the stores before the KSers ship.

Quite a few people have been burned :/

Hopefully my kickstarter will renew some faith.

I wonder how much damage jarckarses like John Campbell have done to the reputation of Kickstarters.

Campbell is the ****** that decided to burn his books rather than deliver them, because the folks that were supposed to receive them complained.

I have had good luck with Kickstarters - and I really do not mind PVC miniatures. (Enough so that I wonder what the Hell all the complaining is about... maybe I have just been lucky?)

The Auld grump

 edlowe wrote:
The question is what do you need to hear from a ks before you pledge, do such things as mentioned above really affect your pledging or like me do you sometimes get 'shiny eye syndrome' and pledge with a lot of faith?

Basically what gets you to pledge and what stops you? Do you think that were holding companies to a higher standard than a year ago?

For starters:

1. The "sweet spot" needs to be at least 2/3rds women. I backed Sedition Wars despite the majority of the miniatures being a mediocre take on space zombies because I thought the 25% I actually wanted would justify supporting "the cause", and that I could sell the rest. Spoiler: it wasn't. At this stage, if I can't spend the majority of my pledge on things I actually want, I'm not going to bother.

2. The material should be ABS or HIPS. I'm willing to look at other materials as a one-off, but "the cause" for me is mass production. Someone trying to overcome the hurdle of machining metal moulds so they can get to the pennies-per-mini stage of churning out sprues, that's something worth supporting. If you want to make resin or restic miniatures I'm much less inclined to help, because it's not going to cause a revolutionary change like moulds for HIPS sprues do.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
I wonder how much damage jarckarses like John Campbell have done to the reputation of Kickstarters.

Campbell is the ****** that decided to burn his books rather than deliver them, because the folks that were supposed to receive them complained.

I have had good luck with Kickstarters - and I really do not mind PVC miniatures. (Enough so that I wonder what the Hell all the complaining is about... maybe I have just been lucky?)

The Auld grump

Personally I am drawing my conclusions on miniature related kickstarters based on the results of miniature related kickstarters only. As for the PVC embargo it's a personal choice, but evidently shared by many. While I agree it has it's place in the hobby I reject the notion it's anywhere near as good as it's been and STILL IS marketed as (I am not going to dredge up the material debate in here as I am sure you are aware of what the nay-sayers don't like about it). That form of misrepresentation is my biggest gripe with kickstarters in general and the main reason I am more reluctant to back a project without reservations. Vetting a project and doing my homework has always been part of backing and I have yet to back a project that has not delivered. I've just not always felt that what I got was what I backed.

As the saying goes "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice..." and that is what people are realising I think. It's like the collective goodwill is kind of spent at this point regardless of who did what.

If it looks cool and I think it is good value then I may go in for a KS if I have the spare cash.

If I like the (proposed) product I'll back if I've got the cash to spare

PVC is not a deal breaker (although it's not my favourite), but I'd tend to only accept it if the minis are part of a game I might play, not if I only want the minis

I'd like to see signs that the person/company involved has some idea of what they are doing (or is willing to listen if they don't)

The one thing that does not (really) bother me is delays, especially on very big projects, I think you've got to be prepared for them especially if things are being contracted out

(China is a major hassle, but I've seen delays down to casters/printers in the UK and USA too and sculptors too.... everybody wants business and overpromises to get it, and if a project creator wants a long term relationship they don't even have the option to lay the blame where it belongs)

One of my big red flags is a 2nd/3rd etc KS being launched before I've seen significant progress on the 1st

(it doesn't have to be fulfilled but I have to see progress and good communications on all previous projects)

Scale is not a big thing for me as I'm not bothered by mixing them up on a table but I can see it would be for those who's minis have to match

(although getting an exact measure on a 3d print, physical sculpt or resin master is no real help if the final result will be in something that shrinks to the extent PVC can)]

On price a deal is great (everybody loves a deal), but if I can afford it I'll back projects that are pretty much what eventual retail would be, especially smaller ones which might never come out without crowd funding help

More than anything I tend to judge Kickstarters on the information given.

I also judge on what actually looks ready, or may have a quick turnaround. Usually by reading through the pitch I can weed out what is already in place waiting for funding to go or is just sitting in the ether (creators mind).

It helps a lot to do some research on projected fulfilment dates and if possible who is supposed to fulfil the project. Sometimes the bs detector goes off early and saves on a lot of headache.

Nowadays, I'm much more interested in unique projects, and I'm more likely to back a project that is realistic and conservative and doesn't go stretch-goal-stupid than one that does. I keep seeing people like [url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/591778.page]Minion Miniatures[/i] going too far into the over-promising side, egged on by people who are over-enthusiastic and their own boundless enthusiasm and "nothing could possibly go wrong - we can do this, this and this!"

 basement.dweller wrote:
Here is my KS algorithm:

Code snip

Spoiler:

10: If the producers are known offenders* I don't bother, else goto 20:
20: If the shinies make me drool goto 30, else I don't bother.
30: If material is PVC I don't bother, else goto 40
40: If the price seems fair given the material AND perceived quality goto 50, else I don't bother
50: If shipping is way out of wack I don't bother, else goto 60
60: Put down a placeholder pledge then goto 70
70: If the producers have a good history** goto 80, else goto 90
80: Wait a week then goto 90
90: If the information given in the KS and/or forums = sufficient goto 110, else goto 100
100: Ask questions then goto 90
110: If the information given in the KS and/or forums is satisfactory*** goto 130, else goto 120
120 ull the pledge.
130: Hope that your bet will pay off and stay on the KS.

*known offenders means companies that have burned others and/or myself by promising something they could not deliver - be it at all or to a claimed quality.

**good history in your own book, or by word of mouth from someone you trust who you know looks for the same things you do.

***Satisfactory in the following: Not rude, not deceitful and grounded in facts that most likely point to an actual product.

Basic is so passe and the use of goto is bad programming use objective programming

So many kickstarter owner and miniature creators post on DakkaDakka that i see this site as a good info gathering device to decide on a kickstarter.

I've backed several KS in the past, have run one to raise funds for more tables and terrain for a games club I set up, and am now about to run another for a new fantasy dice game.

I've spent nearly two years getting the rules sorted, dice prototypes made and manufacturers sourced. We are nearly in place to sign deals with the dice and packaging manufacturers all prior to launching the KS as that is the only way we can accurately gauge what our costs will be, and then from that information fashion a great cool KS campaign with proper pledge levels that are priced well to give our backers a bit of a discount against RRP for when we release to the public.

I'm currently designing the KS page and will have a list of FAQs where we will state who is doing what. We won't be giving lots of stuff away for free however stretch goals will be used to add more value to the 2 player Core Set as well as allow us to create Expansion Packs based on races.

I got a little jaded with KS last year as it seemed certain companies got a little "starry eyed" with this new toy and couldn't keep away from it, letting their enthusiasm and obvious passion for what they do get the better of them to a certain extent which impacted on both quality and company perception in negative ways.

Sanctioned Chaos (our new company) is just me and my fiancee turning our passion for fantasy games into, hopefully, a business. Starting small with a dice game and then moving on to a card game and maybe more in the years to come. Time will tell.

I've backed something like 23 tabletop and PC game kickstarters now. Kickstarter is great and I definitely plan to keep using it - but yes I'm definitely more discerning with pledges and will always push for clarity from the companies before giving them my money.

Re. WGF... it's a warning sign to some due to delays, but it's a big draw to me due to guaranteed high quality with WWX and DFG plastics being basically the best I've seen. I hope they get better at production estimates as 1.5 years late for dreamforge wave 3 really is stretching it!! Amazing range of figures though, I'm glad I helped get it off the ground.

I definitely think you can tell the preparation somebodys put into a kickstarter by how quickly they answer relevent questions, or better yet have all the answers on the front page.

One of the other things that really helps is having a knowledgeable and fluent person maning the comments section. So many times a comment section has got out of control due to the creator not jumpjng in with definite answers to people's questions.

I think both of these things can lead to the white knighting we've seen recently where people get very defensive when their faith in a project is threatened by people seeking answers.

For me, a well-written, well-designed, and well-planned project page is important. Are all the details there? Are you ready to go once the money comes in, or at least very soon after? Have you padded your timetable enough to not only account for the usual delays, but for the delays you weren't expecting? Whatever time you've added to account for delays, double it, because something you did not even dream of will go wrong. I recently backed a project for a new wallet that is already delayed nearly a month due to problems in just transferring the funds to the project creator (that neither his bank nor Kickstarter could explain). I backed a project for a cast iron skillet that got delayed because the tumbling machine broke unexpectedly. It's why Scotty always multiplied his repair time estimates by four: how else could he keep his reputation as a miracle worker?

WGF is not a warning sign for me, because the end product will be of high quality. Like the old saying goes: fast, cheap, good; pick two. I do suspect that, once WGF works through all the backlog of the KS projects they've taken on, things will get a lot better as I suspect they've learned their lesson with overextending themselves.

 Azazelx wrote:
I keep seeing people like [url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/591778.page]Minion Miniatures[/i] going too far into the over-promising side, egged on by people who are over-enthusiastic and their own boundless enthusiasm and "nothing could possibly go wrong - we can do this, this and this!"

What? Your last several posts in that thread are arguing with the Minion Miniatures guy that he should sell his miniatures for less money than what he feels is possible and realistic and then you come over here and accuse him of being over-enthusiastic because he isn't offering his miniatures for 50p a piece like you want him to?

 Gallahad wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I keep seeing people like [url=http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/591778.page]Minion Miniatures[/i] going too far into the over-promising side, egged on by people who are over-enthusiastic and their own boundless enthusiasm and "nothing could possibly go wrong - we can do this, this and this!"

What? Your last several posts in that thread are arguing with the Minion Miniatures guy that he should sell his miniatures for less money than what he feels is possible and realistic and then you come over here and accuse him of being over-enthusiastic because he isn't offering his miniatures for 50p a piece like you want him to?

Not actually arguing with him, since he hasn't responded directly to my questions or statements, but yeah - I think his KS will succeed but his post-KS business plan will fail, since he's based his retail prices on being slightly cheaper than GW's RRP. There hasn't been any discussion with him on how "realistic" or "possible" his prices are (he hasn't answered any of the questions, like I said). I'm accusing him of being over-enthusiastic because he's still talking about plastic sprues for undead and bugbears and flesh golems and... instead of just concentrating on the goblins and getting them out the door - which is a separate matter to pricing.

But well done on the reading comprehension. You apparently misunderstood the point of everything I've said in both threads.

Good screen name, btw.

I now assume everything I look at will be up to a year late minimum, and then decide if the discount I'm looking at makes the wait worth it.

For example, I pledged on the Winter War kickstarter only because I got a huge break in price for it. I knew full well it was probably going to run late once the stretch goals started opening up. I probably would have dropped my pledge if it wasn't for so many of the add ons being free.

On a related note, the more stretch goals I see for a kickstarter now, the less likely I am to back it. Stretch goals are synonymous with delays. If I see more than 2 or 3, I immediately expect delays. Anything more than 5 is a red flag, and anything in the twenties to thirties range causes me to laugh as I move on to the next one.

It may be different for non miniatures kickstarters, but for the ones I typically back, I've found they're bad news. If I saw a kickstarter coming up where the main guy specifically mentioned there would be no stretch goals, I would be far more likely to back it than one that had several stretch goals available.

No stretch goals? Blasphemy!

I wonder about the shape of the curve for people emphasising price/quantity/quality compared to time on a KS is, could be interesting. I know a fair few people value the delivery time much higher than I do. I don't *want* it to be late, but given a choice between late and worse quality I'd go for late. Mantic for example are known for being on time almost to a fault, and it's thought that their quality can suffer because of it - though this seems less the case with the last KS thankfully.

That said it shouldn't be either low quality *or* late which is a good standard to hold KS creators to if perhaps unlikely to be achieved given the nature of the beast - fast, cheap or good, pick two and all that. Should still push hard for it though!

Stretch goals are of little importance to me. If the value isn't already there in the product being offered at the start, then what's the point? I've backed quite a few non gaming KS projects, and stretch goals are relatively rare for them compared to the gaming projects.

If I'm taking the risk of backing a KS, and suffering the agony of the wait on a KS, it needs to be something worth my time and hard earned cash.

The following factors are all factors pretty much required:
--Really good looking models.
--Relatively cheap models.

I'm more inclined to support a project if:
--the models are something I can't get a reasonable approximation of somewhere else.
--the minis will be put into general production after the KS is over. Limited runs make me feel like I'm being conned.
--the creator has a good reputation.
--the creator has other finished products I can examine to establish a precedent of their work quality.
--Good package deals available.
--Earlybird deals are still available.

There are a few negatives that will make me question whether to back or not, but aren't deal breakers:
--No concept art.
--Egregious shipping.
--History of ludicrous delays.
--History of changing things around after pledges but before production.

And, of course, a few total deal breakers.
--The product is something I don't want to have a paper trail proving I've purchased. (Some miniature lines have been a little over the top, and since my last job contract included a morality clause, I want to be careful what I'm connected to online.)
--A history of not delivering on a KS.
--A history of absconding with ANY customer money, in KS or otherwise.

Assuming there are no out-and-out dealbreakers, I judge them all on a case-by-case basis.

Pfft. Don't call it accountability, its just cautiousness. The kick starters that were the most problematic would probably be funded today still, just at a bit less money.

Real accountability are the new laws that are being proposed to limit crowd funding.

I'm actually very wiling to accept long delays for quality models produced in styrene plastic. I'd rather see other plastic companies being used (if there are any) because I think WGF is way over booked and is likely to remain that way for the next few years.

Still, I've crossed Mantic, McVey, and CMoN off my list of projects I'm willing to support. Wyrd, too, if Mike has any involvement.

I hate stretch goals.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I hate stretch goals.

Any particular reason?

The delays are what stopped me from backing new KS's this year (apart from Mierce, given that they have a good record for communication and delivering on time), and led me to ditch one of them. It's the endless sorry-but delays that kill my enthusiasm, coupled with the fact that an inexplicably large number of creators seem to be under the delusion that communication with their backers is optional. I've just come from one that went a month and a half in a communications blackout because it was apparently too distracting to post "We're having problems with the layout phase of book design."

If any KS creators past, present or future are reading this--Communication is good. It keeps up enthusiasm for your product. It keeps the backers friendly even if there's a delay, so long as the delay is explained. It prevents them from venting their spleen on forums and giving you bad publicity. It means less pulled pledges.

I've never been burned (yet). I've backed everything from pc games to a local Greek restaurant.

My biggest gripe for games is showing CAD renderings of miniatures rather then physical sculpts of the masters. Or showing photoshop mockups of printed components instead of a physical product.