Bryan01 wrote:
Nice Tau changes! Some wee changes i'd suggest is giving Pathfinders combat Armour (4+). I realize they are already getting some points breaks on their gadgets and weapon options, but @ 11 pts a pop, I think they'll be passed on still as a marker source. 4+ and T3 still has them as a pretty flimsy unit. Did you mean to give them all the option of a heavy weapon?

Darkstrider I honestly think could go down another 10 pts or so and get combat armour. If your going for a cheap HQ, the Ethereal still sticks out imo as the better option.

Firewarriors, I think you could potentially reduce them to 8 pts, but make the option of the pulse rifle +1pts. Still can't imagine people would take the carbine ever, but may as well give those few who do a little break. Carbine and EMP for 9pts could be fun. Additionally, I know it is a big change, but the option of one of the pathfinder heavy weapons for 12 man squads could be something to consider I think.

Regarding Stealth suits, the option of two drones per suit like their counterparts could be an alternative way to buff them instead of a straight out pts reduction.

A 20% reduction in cost for the Hammerhead is quite large.

Just my initial impressions and I should add, I lack the experience to really back my suggestions up, so take it with a pinch of salt.

niv-mizzet wrote:I would definitely pull wraiths back down to t4 if you're keeping them close to the same price point. We have seen very good evidence that they were fine before as t4, (IE all of the previous book's life span,) and the harvest still makes them even better.

I would change RP to be 5+, ignored on insta death a la fnp, and have the decurion allow a 6+ RP against otherwise-instadeath.

Bryan01 wrote:Np, regarding the stealth suits, thinking of it, if you just gave them the option of two drones straight out and no reduction in cost, the basic stealth suit basically becomes a drone carrier and not worth it without the drones. On the other hand, drones increase the durability of the unit and open up more options for the unit, e.g. people could take gun drones or marker drones, more options = good in my book. But they should pay for it. So maybe, drop the basic stealth suit down to 25 pts, give them the option of two drones per suit, but their gun drones cost 14/15 pts per modal instead of the standard 12. Gun drones to this unit is worth more then other suits so they can pay extra for it.

I think that could be a nice compromise.

Regarding the H-head decrease, I was more thinking about the Ion Version. 115 points, for an Ion Cannon, TL SMS and a disruption pod seems like a wet dream. Speaking of TL SMS, the free choice between it and the gun drones or burst cannons sticks out as an easy choice at the moment. Perhaps instead of a TL burst cannon, make it two separate B.cannons. As for the gun drones, err, only thing I can think of here is some kind of points break.

Also, whilst on the subject of heavy support, I think moving sniper drones to fast attack could give them a better chance of seeing a bit more game time. The lack of pinning with sniper rifles this edition could even warrant a wee 1pt decrease in the drones themselves I reckon.

Reclamation Legion
Enhanced Reanimation Protocols: "Add +1 to Reanimation Protocol rolls for the Overlord from this Formation (or the model taken in place of the Overlord) and units from this Formation that are within 6" of him."

Canoptek Harvest
Adaptive Subroutines: Change "and all units from this Formation within 12"" to "and all units from this Formation within 6""

Bharring wrote:
2 drones per Stealth Suit, even at 14/15ppm, might be a bit too good. Recall that Stealth/Shrouded affect the unit, not the model.

Fire Warrior Team: 48pts, 8pts/model
Wargear: Combat Armour, Pulse Carbine, Photon Grenades
Any model may exchange his Pulse Carbine for a Pulse Rifle: 1pt/model
May upgrade one Fire Warrior to a Fire Warrior Shas'Ui: 5pts
A Fire Warrior Shas'Ui may take a Markerlight and Target Lock: 10pts
A unit may take EMP Grenades: 1pt/model
The entire unit may take the Bonding Knife Ritual Special Rule: 5pts

Pathfinder Team: 50pts, 10pts/model
Unit Composition: 5 Pathfinders
May include a Recon Drone: 20pts
May include a Grav-Inhibitor Drone: 12pts
May include a Pulse Accelerator Drone: 12pts
Models may exchange their Pulse Carbine and Markerlight for one of the following... Ion Rifle: 7pts; Rail Rifle: 10pts
The unit may take EMP Grenades: 1pt/model
May upgrade one Pathfinder to a Pathfinder Shas'Ui: 5pts
The entire unit may take the Bonding Knife Ritual Special rule: 5pts

Hammerhead Gunship:100pts, 100pts/model
Add "May take an additional Hammerhead Gunship... 100pts/model
Any Hammerhead with a Railgun may take Submunition Rounds... 5pts/model
Any Model may exchange both Gun Drones for one of the following... Twin-Linked Smart Missile System: 10pts
Any Model may take up to two Seeker Missiles...
Any Model may exchange its Railgun for an Ion Cannon: Free
Any Model may take items from the Vehicle Battle Systems list.

Sky Ray Missile Defense Gunship: 115pts, 115pts/model
Add "May take an additional Sky Ray Missile Defense Gunship... 115pts/model
Any Model may exchange both Gun Drones for one of the following... Twin-Linked Smart Missile System: 10pts
Any Model may take items from the Vehicle Battle Systems list.

 Bryan01 wrote:
Yup yup, I think those are some nice changes and deal with the most pressing issues. The buffmander nerf and markerlight hurts, but brings them more in line with non eldar/necron 7th edition codex's I reckon. The Stealthsuits @25pts a pop, can fulfill their role better then crisis suits or kroot. Which is all I ask for!

12 of them 3rd ed ninja stealths at home, glaring at their crisis counterparts and kroot for taking their roles currently.

Farsight Enclaves Supplement

Spoiler:

The Army of the Farsight Enclaves
The Army of the Farsight Enclaves/Battlesuit Spearhead/Ork Hunters/Ta'Lissera Bond
Change "Farsight Enclaves army" to "Farsight Enclaves Detachment"

Signature Systems
Change "your army" to "your Farsight Enclaves Detachment"

Earth Caste Pilot Array: 35pts
The Mirrorcodex: 30pts
Seismic Fibrillator Node: 30pts
Warscaper Drone: 25pts
Talismen of Arthas Moloc: 10pts
Fusion Blades: 5pts

Farsight's Commander Team
Change "a Farsight Enclaves army" to "a Farsight Enclaves Detachment"

Commander Farsight: 155pts
Commander Bravestorm: 179pts
Commander Brightsword: 154pts
Shas'Vre Ob'Lotai 9-0: 113pts
Commander Arra'Kon: 146pts
Commander Sha'Vastos: 159pts
Sub-commander Torchstar: 144pts
Honour-Shas'Vre O'Vesa: 305pts
*Includes a 10pts Discount and new Wargear costs

Bharring wrote:
Probably not needed, but what would you think about Drone Controller being +1BS instead of replacing BS?

Bharring wrote:
Then probably no change. The lighter the touch the better.

It just always seemed odd that it was so amazing on Commanders but so poor on other suits. A redesign of Tau should probably address it, but not a balance project like this.

kambien wrote:
You may want to reconsider going back to previous markerlight rule regarding Seeker missiles or add legalize so that a vehicle launching a seek via markerlight token isn't required to fire at the target with its regular weapons as well as not counting towards the amount of weapons it can fire. That was sorta the nail in the coffin to using seekers outside of a skyray

Martel732 wrote:
Can we maybe get a buff on the HBC for the Riptide and then jack the points up to reflect its insane durability? I figure that giving a buff to the HBC will take some sting off appropriately costing the chassis, which I think is considerably under-costed for the amount of punishment it can absorb. That, or give it 3+ armor like MCs used to have. That and the Dreadknight.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can we maybe get a buff on the HBC for the Riptide and then jack the points up to reflect its insane durability? I figure that giving a buff to the HBC will take some sting off appropriately costing the chassis, which I think is considerably under-costed for the amount of punishment it can absorb. That, or give it 3+ armor like MCs used to have. That and the Dreadknight.

I don't think that is necessary, both the Riptide have comparable durability Chassis. 130pts for T6 4W 2+/5++ and 180pts for T6 5W 2+/5++ and neither is really undercosted for what they get stock. Moving them to 3+ would actually require a price decrease in line with the decrease I gave almost all the overcosted T6 3+ MCs, is why you never saw a Walking Flyrant, they just weren't worth it.

And the NOVA Reactor is what is supposed to balance out the Riptide's Durability, when it is using it its Durability drops significantly. Over the course of a 6 Turn Game the HBC Riptide deals 2 W to itself, that is huge. And it needs that to NOVA that gun to function, otherwise it isn't putting out hardly any firepower at all and is just a mobile near useless in assault unit. Now, one thing I'm thinking is my IA Riptide changes aren't quite enough and I need to make it a 20pt upgrade for the IA. That is the thing that still needs to be tweaked right now, I though dropping AP2 to AP3 would primarily be enough, but I still feel its too good on its default profiles.

Have you played against many HBC Riptides? Or only IA Riptides with EWO for Interceptor? You'll find its a very different story and that the HBC Riptide is a balanced unit. And right now the EWO IA Riptide is 210pts vs 190 Previously with a worse gun. That is definitely a step in the right direction.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Can we maybe get a buff on the HBC for the Riptide and then jack the points up to reflect its insane durability? I figure that giving a buff to the HBC will take some sting off appropriately costing the chassis, which I think is considerably under-costed for the amount of punishment it can absorb. That, or give it 3+ armor like MCs used to have. That and the Dreadknight.

I don't think that is necessary, both the Riptide have comparable durability Chassis. 130pts for T6 4W 2+/5++ and 180pts for T6 5W 2+/5++ and neither is really undercosted for what they get stock. Moving them to 3+ would actually require a price decrease in line with the decrease I gave almost all the overcosted T6 3+ MCs, is why you never saw a Walking Flyrant, they just weren't worth it.

And the NOVA Reactor is what is supposed to balance out the Riptide's Durability, when it is using it its Durability drops significantly. Over the course of a 6 Turn Game the HBC Riptide deals 2 W to itself, that is huge. And it needs that to NOVA that gun to function, otherwise it isn't putting out hardly any firepower at all and is just a mobile near useless in assault unit. Now, one thing I'm thinking is my IA Riptide changes aren't quite enough and I need to make it a 20pt upgrade for the IA. That is the thing that still needs to be tweaked right now, I though dropping AP2 to AP3 would primarily be enough, but I still feel its too good on its default profiles.

Have you played against many HBC Riptides? Or only IA Riptides with EWO for Interceptor? You'll find its a very different story and that the HBC Riptide is a balanced unit. And right now the EWO IA Riptide is 210pts vs 190 Previously with a worse gun. That is definitely a step in the right direction.

I don't see HBCs. Ever. That's why I want to buff the HBC. I want it to be viable without the NOVA charge. I want there to be a real decision to be made, and there still really isn't one here. 180 pts for T6 5W 2+/5++ is considerably tougher than anything marines can field for 180 pts. Or IG or CSM, for that matter. Probably most armies. That's why I think it needs a non-trivial price hike, but gets a viable weapon as a consolation prize. There is a price to be paid for near-immortality.

"And the NOVA Reactor is what is supposed to balance out the Riptide's Durability"

But it doesn't. These things never die unless a grav cent squad shoots them, and the BA are fresh out of those, and aren't getting them in your update. So BA and DA remain helpless against Riptides. And another thing, Riptides are NOT useless in assault. They are still an MC in an edition that heavily favors MCs over everything else in the game.

"You'll find its a very different story and that the HBC Riptide is a balanced unit."

Still too hard to kill for lists like BA and DA. Or any non-grav cent non-Skitaari Imperials. Imperial heavy weapons simply come on crap platforms that the Riptides dance away from.

Martel732 wrote:
"And if you pump out the Nova, your durability drops drastically."

Does it? Your save goes from 5++ to 3++. That seems like MORE durability.

Martel732 wrote:
The updated Riptide still has the terrifying combination of 2+ armor, 5W, FNP, and a long, long range. I can't stress the range enough, because it puts it out of reach of every effective Imperial counter. Riptides inflicting wounds on themselves is almost moot, as the opponent is hard-pressed to inflict any wounds on it at long range.

The upside to the change is that 2+ armor units force a NOVA charge to go into the IA to get the pie plate of doom off. The downside is that 3+ armor units are still total victims and have to traverse the 60" range to meaningfully threaten the Ritpide.

Depending on the table, this might work out, or the Riptide might end up with 6 turns of unconstested shooting, because Imperials can't bring enough long range AP 2 to make the thing care. Actually, I don't think the Eldar can, either, but they've got ranged STR D and scat bikes.

The shield looks pretty effective when the Tau player sees a combi-plas sternguard in his opponent's list. Maybe that's one of your specific circumstances, but I've seen players pop that thing whenever I even have a inkling of a chance of killing it, and then all my chances to kill it go down the tubes. Of course, a big part of this errata is how many overcosted BA units and assault units there are in game, I know. Just consider what its like trying to run down a Riptide with assault marines and then compare to running it down with Wraiths.

Martel732 wrote:
I can get meltas close to a Leman Russ and then it dies or is crippled. Meltas bounce harmlessly off the Riptide. At best, I get a wound and then it fights on like nothing happened. MCs OP. Again. The Leman Russ is also slower than the Riptide, so it can't stay away from my melta units or grav bikers. The Leman Russ doesn't force me to engage it with long range weapons because it can't stay away. The Riptide can stay away and rofl blast me with pie plates of doom.

"You discount the fact that a Riptide deals 2 wounds to itself on average in a 6 turn game,"

It gets FNP vs those wounds, don't forget. So it's more like 1.5 wounds, in practice.

" I've seen almost 3 killed with long ranged firepower in a single turn at 1850."

How, if I may ask?

I don't consider 225 that expensive for the insane durability of the thing. There is nothing the BA can get for 225 that is anywhere near as durable, or frankly, destructive as this thing. And your errata doesn't fix this issue for the BA at all.

Maybe I've just lost to this thing too many times to be truly objective. But at the same time, I think most people on here would agree that the Riptide has massive advantages over a Leman Russ.

Martel732 wrote:
" BA will be better, with cheaper and more numerous toys, "

That's the real fix, because then I have more models that I can sacrifice to the Riptides trying to corral them.

"You act as if a Riotide has infinite range and can never be pinned down and assaulted. That is not true, they are easily caught and swept. "

I can't catch them, as all my units tend to die on the Tau's turn very, very quickly. I can't catch them with nothing. Wraith and TWC can weather the storm, so they CAN eventually catch.

" You speak as if these pieplates of doom are Strength D ignores cover, they aren't"

They are damn close, as they double out my FNP guys, and two marker lights ignore typical cover granted by terrain.

". Shoot other targets"

These are BA. What is this shooting phase you speak of? At least compared to other lists in the game.

"225pts for 83% of a LRBT's firepower, is not that scary no matter how you look at it"

If it's firepower I can never, ever silence, that's pretty scary to me. The LRBT suffers from even a single shaken neutering it for a turn. There is no way to suppress a Riptide like that.