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Screenshots of the new codex show the following sentence:

If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactic.

So obviously you lose the benefit of CT when putting together two units from the codex, but does this also mean you can't include say a Blood Angels IC in a SM unit without costing the codex marines their tactics? What about a non-space marine character like and Inquisitor? I think that last one is pretty obvious RAW, but I think the Chapters without the CT rule is a grey area. The models do come from different Chapters, but they don't have CT and I wouldn't expect SW, GK, or BA to lose their special rules, but do the codex marines when paired up with non-codex marines?

Technically, you could include a BA or SW IC, since they don't have Chapter Tactics. There would be no interaction between these chapters and the Chapter Tactics ability, since they don't actually have Chapter Tactics. So, no, Codex Marines would not lose their Chapter Tactics ability.

Now remember Brothers, we are the Raven Guard! We strike from the shadows!

Well, actually sir, since we let SPQR over there join the squad our cover has been blown. We are surrounded by Orks, the smurf won't stop firing his boltgun and muttering something about his spiritual liege's doctrine, sir.

Hmm. I see. What turn is it?

Turn two, sir.

Retreat.

darkcloak wrote:
Now remember Brothers, we are the Raven Guard! We strike from the shadows!

Well, actually sir, since we let SPQR over there join the squad our cover has been blown. We are surrounded by Orks, the smurf won't stop firing his boltgun and muttering something about his spiritual liege's doctrine, sir.

Hmm. I see. What turn is it?

Turn two, sir.

Retreat.

I'm dying

 jokerkd wrote:

darkcloak wrote:
Now remember Brothers, we are the Raven Guard! We strike from the shadows!

Well, actually sir, since we let SPQR over there join the squad our cover has been blown. We are surrounded by Orks, the smurf won't stop firing his boltgun and muttering something about his spiritual liege's doctrine, sir.

Hmm. I see. What turn is it?

Turn two, sir.

Retreat.

I'm dying

Gather his progenoids!

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Technically, you could include a BA or SW IC, since they don't have Chapter Tactics. There would be no interaction between these chapters and the Chapter Tactics ability, since they don't actually have Chapter Tactics. So, no, Codex Marines would not lose their Chapter Tactics ability.

Incorrect, potentially; the restrictiopnis on whether the model is from a different *chapter*

In fluff, for sure, SW and BA are different *Chapters*, and it could be argued they trigger this rule; having a SW IC would lose chapter tactics

It is whether this fluff is sufficinet; most people I think would agree that it makes sense in game that a howling SW may not be as stealthy as a Ravenguard squad....

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Technically, you could include a BA or SW IC, since they don't have Chapter Tactics. There would be no interaction between these chapters and the Chapter Tactics ability, since they don't actually have Chapter Tactics. So, no, Codex Marines would not lose their Chapter Tactics ability.

Incorrect, potentially; the restrictiopnis on whether the model is from a different *chapter*

In fluff, for sure, SW and BA are different *Chapters*, and it could be argued they trigger this rule; having a SW IC would lose chapter tactics

It is whether this fluff is sufficinet; most people I think would agree that it makes sense in game that a howling SW may not be as stealthy as a Ravenguard squad....

Rereading the rule, the Raven Guard would lose their Chapter Tactics, but not the SW or BA. I am curious to see how DA will have their rules listed.

The book defines it as units with a certain chapter tactic as being from that chapter. Therefore, marine armies without chapter tactics would not trigger this rule. (Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Dark Angels)

'All models drawn from a given chapter benefit from that chapter's Chapter Tactics special rules, as described below. The rules will often refer to a model, character, or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character, or unit with the Chapter Tactics rule, that is drawn from the given Chapter.'

They don't count as being a different chapter unless they have the chapter tactics of another chapter, so don't trigger the no chapter tactics rule.

Still not entirely true.

The Space WOlf book defines them as a Chapter as well. So you most certainly have a unit not entirely made up of models with the same chapter tactic, outwith this rule.

Youre making the A-> B means ¬A->¬B fallacy, or the excluded middle. This does not state that only models with chapter tactics are a member of a chapter.

have a rules quote that says, for the purposes of Chapter Tactics, A model in a detachment of Space Wolves or Grey Knights would counteract the Chapter Tactics of a model from a Ultramarines or White Scars detachment?

Unless you have something that states a model with the faction(space wolves) is the same as a model with the faction(space marines) with chapter tactics(imperial fists) joining a faction(space marines) unit with chapter tactics(ultramarines)....

 Crazyterran wrote:
have a rules quote that says, for the purposes of Chapter Tactics, A model in a detachment of Space Wolves or Grey Knights would counteract the Chapter Tactics of a model from a Ultramarines or White Scars detachment?

Unless you have something that states a model with the faction(space wolves) is the same as a model with the faction(space marines) with chapter tactics(imperial fists) joining a faction(space marines) unit with chapter tactics(ultramarines)....

Do you have a non-fluff definition of "Chapter"? The rules say units that contain models from different Chapters, not models with different Chapter Tactics.

 Happyjew wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
have a rules quote that says, for the purposes of Chapter Tactics, A model in a detachment of Space Wolves or Grey Knights would counteract the Chapter Tactics of a model from a Ultramarines or White Scars detachment?

Unless you have something that states a model with the faction(space wolves) is the same as a model with the faction(space marines) with chapter tactics(imperial fists) joining a faction(space marines) unit with chapter tactics(ultramarines)....

Do you have a non-fluff definition of "Chapter"? The rules say units that contain models from different Chapters, not models with different Chapter Tactics.

My previous post before the one you quoted shows how codex space marines define anything that asks for a model, unit, or characters chapter. Fluff has nothing to do with it.

Yeah, there has to be a meaningful definition of "chapter" that extends beyond this book for it to technically count for other 'chapters'. With out that we can only assume the RAI was not meant to go beyond the chapters covered by this codex. This does lead to a new question though. Would Padro Kantor and Captain Lysander being in the same unit prevent them from getting their chapter tactics bonus?

IMHO they should have just made each chapter its own faction. Datasheets shared between factions would have more then one symbol at the top and you just pick which faction it belongs to when you slot it into your army. Would make things a lot easier to deal with.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Still not entirely true.

The Space WOlf book defines them as a Chapter as well. So you most certainly have a unit not entirely made up of models with the same chapter tactic, outwith this rule.

Youre making the A-> B means ¬A->¬B fallacy, or the excluded middle. This does not state that only models with chapter tactics are a member of a chapter.

We're not dealing with a Codex: Space Wolves issue. We're dealing with a Codex: Space Marines issue. Therefore, we use the Codex: Space Marines definition of what being from a Chapter means.

Chapter Tactics only go away if there is another model in the unit with Chapter Tactics from a different Chapter.

#1 - A Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines) unit with an attached Chapter Tactics (Salamanders) IC will lose the benefit of Chapter Tactics as the unit will count as coming from neither Chapter.

#2 - A Chapter Tactics (Ultramarines) unit with an attached Codex: Blood Angels IC will still benefit from Chapter Tactics as the unit will still count as coming from the Ultramarines Chapter. There is no other model in the unit with Chapter Tactics from a different Chapter.

This is obviously non-intuitive as we like to pretend that (from a rules standpoint) Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves are Space Marines. From a strict rules standpoint, a Blood Angels IC is no more a Space Marine than a Tau Crisis Suit Commander is a Space Marine. From a fluff standpoint, sure... but we don't play the game based on fluff. We play the game based on rules.

TL: DR; - Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves aren't valid "Chapters" per Codex: Space Marines as they don't have Chapter Tactics. Feel free to mix and match ICs into Codex: Space Marine units while maintaining your Chapter Tactics. Silly, but rules are rules. This could easily be corrected by rolling ALL Chapters into one Codex and just having more Chapter specific units (like most of the named characters).

So we can never use an outside deefinition to determine the status of something within a codex?

Plasma siphon suggests otherwise - its definition of "plasma" relied upon entries in the tau codex.

Nothing in the rule indicates that it is the Codex : SM "definition " of chapter that counts (and, as opinted out, it isnt actually a definition of what a Chapter means) , so I will use the SW Definition (or attribution of SW as a Chapter) of Chapter, and you have no rules basis for disallowing this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So we can never use an outside deefinition to determine the status of something within a codex?

Plasma siphon suggests otherwise - its definition of "plasma" relied upon entries in the tau codex.

Nothing in the rule indicates that it is the Codex : SM "definition " of chapter that counts (and, as opinted out, it isnt actually a definition of what a Chapter means) , so I will use the SW Definition (or attribution of SW as a Chapter) of Chapter, and you have no rules basis for disallowing this.

I can't stop you from doing anything.

However, Codex: Space Marine clearly defines what is meant by Chapter AND the rules in question are in Codex: Space Marines. Using any other definition is a stretch. If I were a TO, I'd require the C:SM definition to apply to a C:SM rules question.

'All models drawn from a given chapter benefit from that chapter's Chapter Tactics special rules, as described below. The rules will often refer to a model, character, or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character, or unit with the Chapter Tactics rule, that is drawn from the given Chapter.'

This line tells us how the codex defines “chapter” From a RAW POV, unless you have units with Chapter Tactics (X) and Chapter Tactics (Y), you are not mixing chapters. Obviously the other “chapters” of marines (BA, DA, SW, etc) probably should trigger something. But that’s more RAI or HIWPI. IMHO. This might limit in-book shenanigans, but still leave the door open to extra-book tricks.

It also brings up another point. The only vehicles that belong to a chapter are dreads, as they have the CT rule. IIRC the old book had something about everything in the detachment sharing the chapter, but I don’t see that verbiage in the leaks. This will impact Iron Hands players the most, but may also impact other chapters.

This won't end well.

I agree this rule has no effect on chapters outside of the SM codex.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
This won't end well.

I agree this rule has no effect on chapters outside of the SM codex.

Same here. Unless GW FAQs the other marines to give them Chapter Tactics, it's ok to join BA, DA (for now) and SW ICs to SM units.

Fluff is rules only when there are no defined terms.
There are defined terms within the book that contains the rule in question. Therefore fluff does not equal rules in this case.

The plasma siphon does not make for a counter argument in this case because "plasma weapons" is not defined(mostly, i mean they might be a grouping in the brb again i am not at home with my books; but at any rate the faq defines them under yhe fluff), or at least certainly not within its own book.

I wont have a full opinion on this case til i see the rules concerned.

Yay BA priests with iron hands!

unless I am mistaken at current the blood angels/space wolves/dark angels do not have a 'chapter tactics rule' and by the rules that define what a chapter is in the new SM codex have no chapter, as they have no chapter tactics at this time. They surely have special rules, but their special rules are not defined as chapter tactics. If a faq, or future codex changes that and gives them chapter tactics, or qualifies some or all of their special rules as chapter tactics this would be a different thing.

When the SM codex comes out this rule will only affect chapter tactics from different chapters. SM/SW/DA do not have chapter tactics. They would retain their special rules, however models with chapter tactics would lose their special rules.

IE SW and BA can brofist each other and SW keep their SRs and BA keep theres when joined. SW joined to RG, SW keep their special rules(not defined as chapter tactics) RG lose their chapter tactics because the unit has models from different chapters, but only some of the models actually have chapter tactics to lose.

the rule does not call out that the models have to have different chapter tactics, just be from different chapters. and surely SW and RG are different chapters.

blaktoof wrote:


the rule does not call out that the models have to have different chapter tactics, just be from different chapters. and surely SW and RG are different chapters.

No I think it does.

'All models drawn from a given chapter benefit from that chapter's Chapter Tactics special rules, as described below. The rules will often refer to a model, character, or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character, or unit with the Chapter Tactics rule, that is drawn from the given Chapter.'

Since the rule most certainly is referring to a model by its Chapter, that means it is talking about a model with the Chapter Tactics rule. Since SW or BA models don't have Chapter Tactics, they do not fit the description of being part of a chapter.

Zimko wrote:

blaktoof wrote:


the rule does not call out that the models have to have different chapter tactics, just be from different chapters. and surely SW and RG are different chapters.

No I think it does.

'All models drawn from a given chapter benefit from that chapter's Chapter Tactics special rules, as described below. The rules will often refer to a model, character, or unit by its Chapter; in all cases, this refers to a model, character, or unit with the Chapter Tactics rule, that is drawn from the given Chapter.'

Since the rule most certainly is referring to a model by its Chapter, that means it is talking about a model with the Chapter Tactics rule. Since SW or BA models don't have Chapter Tactics, they do not fit the description of being part of a chapter.

without having the codex my statements were based solely on the OP

If a unit contains models drawn from two different Chapters, it counts as from neither Chapter, and thus benefits from neither Chapter Tactic.

if the statement you posted is also in the codex, this is the first I am aware of it and you would be correct.

It would also mean that SW, BA, and DA do not have a chapter, as they do not have chapter tactics.

It does appear that the chapter referred to in this rule is only concerning itself with "chapter" as defined by chapter tactics.

This is fine as sw, da, and ba do not have chapter tactics; adding one of their ics to the unit has as much impact on the chapter tactics as joining a lord commissar or an inquisitor.

blaktoof wrote:
It would also mean that SW, BA, and DA do not have a chapter, as they do not have chapter tactics.

This is correct. From a Codex: Space Marines standpoint, Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves models have no Chapter. This makes perfect sense as the RULES concept of a Chapter is unique to Codex: Space Marines. The FLUFF concept of a Chapter is common to any loyalist Adeptus Astartes group.

The rule in question from the 'Adeptus Astartes' thread in News & Rumours.

The red is completely unnecessary to this discussion now that we have the whole image.

Context.

Chapter in the next sentence(the one that was in question) is clearly the chapter duscussed in the previous sentence.

This is exactly what I have been talking about with questioning individual lines, sentences, and phrases in the rules. Nock it off. If you read the whole paragraph, and understand that paragraphs establish the subject for the whole paragraph in the first sentence; then bickering like this can be avoided.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
The red is completely unnecessary to this discussion now that we have the whole image.

Not my pic, or my red box

darkcloak wrote:
Now remember Brothers, we are the Raven Guard! We strike from the shadows!

Well, actually sir, since we let SPQR over there join the squad our cover has been blown. We are surrounded by Orks, the smurf won't stop firing his boltgun and muttering something about his spiritual liege's doctrine, sir.

Hmm. I see. What turn is it?

Turn two, sir.

Retreat.

That. Is. Hilarious. Well played sir.