Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Quick (probably silly) question: I would infer from the BRB that against a weapon of AP4 or higher, a Ravenwing biker always has to take it on his 3+ armor save whether he is jinking or not. Statistically, he probably has a better chance with the rerollable 4+ cover save from the jink. 3+ is a better save (numerically) than 4+, but if you Mathhammer it out, the rerollable 4+ is statistically better (66% chance with armor, 75% with rerollable 4+ from jink). When the rulebook says to take the best save available, I assume it would mean the 3+ armor in this case. This is how I have played it, but I am curious as to whether it is necessarily right. Sorry if someone already asked this, and thanks in advance for any advice.

That is correct. The way i see it, a rule that allows you to reroll only takes effect after the dice is rolled. So you are only choosing between a 3+ and a 4+ before you roll. In which case the 3+ is the best save.

Take moar darkshrouds

Dark Angels ravenwing favorite saying-

"Brothers! We shall fight in the shade!"

The rule says to take your "best" save. A 4+ re-rollable save is "better" than a 3+ (tho not by much).

axisofentropy wrote:
The rule says to take your "best" save. A 4+ re-rollable save is "better" than a 3+ (tho not by much).

Rulebook page 8 wrote:Armour Save (Sv)
{...} Unlike other characteristics, the lower an Armour Save is, the better. {...}

The rules define "better" as "lower" in this case.

axisofentropy wrote:
The rule says to take your "best" save. A 4+ re-rollable save is "better" than a 3+ (tho not by much).

The rulebook never defines your "best" save as the one you're most likely to pass, but greatly implies that only the numerical value matters making the lower number the "better" save.

I'd argue if you jink the rules require you to take the jink save as it is the best save. Even though the rules don't define it as such, there are lots of things the rules don't define.

If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

That sounds good but simply isn't true in this case. The re-rollable cover save is best in this situation.

If my opponent told me I had to use my worst save because the BRB said I had to use my best save, I'd laugh at their funny joke and use my actual best save.

 Deathypoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

That sounds good but simply isn't true in this case. The re-rollable cover save is best in this situation.

No its not, if only a lower number is defined as better. The odds of passing the save don't figure in determining which save is 'better' or 'best'.

 Deathypoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

That sounds good but simply isn't true in this case. The re-rollable cover save is best in this situation.

If my opponent told me I had to use my worst save because the BRB said I had to use my best save, I'd laugh at their funny joke and use my actual best save.

The rules tell you What they consider to be the best save. Why are you breaking the rules?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If lower is better, the lowest is the best, by definition.

That sounds good but simply isn't true in this case. The re-rollable cover save is best in this situation.

If my opponent told me I had to use my worst save because the BRB said I had to use my best save, I'd laugh at their funny joke and use my actual best save.

The rules tell you What they consider to be the best save. Why are you breaking the rules?

They don't. They tell you a lower save is a better save. They don't tell you how to figured rerolls into that. Granted it is a permissive ruleset, but you're using logic to work out best from better. A lower save has an increased chance of passing as it's only defining characteristic. Therefore lower means better chance to save.

I know the rules don't hand hold you here but that is not unusual with similar issues in D weapons and the Psychic phase. I bet you don't slavishly play those pure RaW? We both know what the actual rules are in this case so why argue against them?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

The rules tell you What they consider to be the best save. Why are you breaking the rules?

The rules say, "a model... has the advantage of using the best available save."

1) Nothing in there about lower numbers always being considered better.

2) The re-rollable cover save is the best save in this case, nothing in the rules contradicts that.

3) The model *has the advantage*. Not the requirement, not the penalty, the "advantage." The most advantageous save is the re-rollable cover save.

Actually their example does show that they consider a lower number to be 'better'. Nothing says that the save your most likely to pass is ever taken into consideration as to which save is 'better'.

Yes, in the example the lower number is better. In the vast majority of cases the lower number is better. But no where does it say that the lower number is always considered better, and it's definitely not better in this particular situation.

While nothing explicitly says that the lower number is always better for all saves, I will grant that nothing explicitly says that re-rolls or other roll-altering abilities should count for which is better, either. But to me, "best" is pretty obvious... you take the one which is best.

I also have to wonder if an example is the best thing to be pointing to in a Rule debate.
Examples are often just one of many possibilities....

 Deathypoo wrote:
But no where does it say that the lower number is always considered better, and it's definitely not better in this particular situation.

So you have no rules to back up your claims that anything other than the lower number is better.

A rule that allows you to reroll a failed save requires you to fail the save before it takes effect.

Until you have failed, you are only choosing between a 3+ and a 4+

 Deathypoo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

The rules tell you What they consider to be the best save. Why are you breaking the rules?

The rules say, "a model... has the advantage of using the best available save."

1) Nothing in there about lower numbers always being considered better.

2) The re-rollable cover save is the best save in this case, nothing in the rules contradicts that.

3) The model *has the advantage*. Not the requirement, not the penalty, the "advantage." The most advantageous save is the re-rollable cover save.

The rules also define the lower numbered save as being the better save. Please show where you are allowed to determine the status of "better" in any other way

 jokerkd wrote:
A rule that allows you to reroll a failed save requires you to fail the save before it takes effect.

Until you have failed, you are only choosing between a 3+ and a 4+

This.

One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine. Let me lay out the arguments as I see them.

-The rule you're quoting is at the beginning of the armor save section, on page 36. It is clarifying that, "unlike most characteristics, an Armour Save is better if it is a lower number."

First of all, it's clearly intended to clear up confusion for anyone new to the game, not lay down a hard and fast rule. But if you MUST interpret it as the utter law, then please notice that it is only talking about armor saves, not all saves.

That is your entire argument.

On my side, I have the fact that "best" is never clearly defined, so we should follow common sense and chose whichever one is best.

We also have the clarification that the option we choose is to the "advantage" of the model, which is very clearly saying that you should not choose a save that is at a disadvantage compared to another choice.

So there it is, in my mind RAW supports the 4+ re-rollable, not the 3+. There is no requirement for me to find a definition that supports this explicitly, because there is no definition that supports the other option explicitly. While all of the evidence is indirect, there is more of it that leans towards the 4+ re-rollable.

May I ask, as an aside... we are debating RAW here, but do any of you actually think the RAI is for a model to be forced to take a lesser save option due to the rule that requires it to take the "best" option? Or are we just arguing RAW for the fun of it?

 Deathypoo wrote:
One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine.

Except one is mentioned in the rules and the other is not.

And yes, the burden of proof is on you to support your position.

 Deathypoo wrote:
One thing I see over and over in these forums is people acting as if the burden of proof is on people who disagree with them. It's not. There is nothing in the rules that supports your interpretation over mine. Let me lay out the arguments as I see them.

-The rule you're quoting is at the beginning of the armor save section, on page 36. It is clarifying that, "unlike most characteristics, an Armour Save is better if it is a lower number."

First of all, it's clearly intended to clear up confusion for anyone new to the game, not lay down a hard and fast rule. But if you MUST interpret it as the utter law, then please notice that it is only talking about armor saves, not all saves.

That is your entire argument.

On my side, I have the fact that "best" is never clearly defined, so we should follow common sense and chose whichever one is best.

We also have the clarification that the option we choose is to the "advantage" of the model, which is very clearly saying that you should not choose a save that is at a disadvantage compared to another choice.

So there it is, in my mind RAW supports the 4+ re-rollable, not the 3+. There is no requirement for me to find a definition that supports this explicitly, because there is no definition that supports the other option explicitly. While all of the evidence is indirect, there is more of it that leans towards the 4+ re-rollable.

May I ask, as an aside... we are debating RAW here, but do any of you actually think the RAI is for a model to be forced to take a lesser save option due to the rule that requires it to take the "best" option? Or are we just arguing RAW for the fun of it?

Well if you're going for "best" from the owner's POV, then 5e necrons with dispersion shields that can reflect shots might say that they consider those saves "best" over their more probable armor save that doesn't reflect shots. And "best" for me when I really really want your unit to finish off my chaplain so I can shoot at your unit next turn might involve choosing my power armor against your power weapons instead of the rosarius invuln.

Using that definition of best is a slippery slope.

Rerolls are an outside factor not used to calculate between better saves.
3+ is better then 4+ rerolls are irrelivent to this.
Theres no interpretation, no messy rules writing, etc.
You just disagree with the book.

take you 4+ rerollable and laugh at people who say you have to take the 3+

or take 2-3 darkshrouds.

 raiden wrote:
take you 4+ rerollable and laugh at people who say you have to take the 3+

or take 2-3 darkshrouds.

Can keep on laughing. Still breaking the rules

niv-mizzet wrote:


Well if you're going for "best" from the owner's POV, then 5e necrons with dispersion shields that can reflect shots might say that they consider those saves "best" over their more probable armor save that doesn't reflect shots. And "best" for me when I really really want your unit to finish off my chaplain so I can shoot at your unit next turn might involve choosing my power armor against your power weapons instead of the rosarius invuln.

Using that definition of best is a slippery slope.

The book says best for the model, not for the model's owner. No slippery slope problem imo.

Straight face test:

Which is the best save?

The rerollable 4+ one

Now for those on the other side, to show you that straight face test fails:

Which is the best save?

The 3+ one

...

Not sure about you, couldnt say that with a straight face

I'm with the 3+ side, for one design reason.
Most of those that post in this section know that a 3+ is a 66% chance to save, while a 4+ rerollable is a 75% chance.

Point is that if i ask my gaming group about those %s they wouldn't all be able to answer me. This game does NOT require you to math hammer stuff, so it can't ask you to do something that would require math hammering. That is why no matter what the actual chances are the rules tell you that a 3+ is always better than a 4+.
Until we are given a table with the ranking of saves including rerolls then RAW is that a 3+ is always better than a 4+, and unfortunately it is RAI too
This is how ETC rules it too.

Sure it is that kind of rules that you can easily talk your opponent into allowing the rerollable save, but if i'm playing with a 12 years old that doesn't believe a rerollable 4+ to be better than a 3+ then i roll the 3+ cause that's what the BRB states.

My group also lets me take the rerollable jink over 3+ armour, because we think that's how it should be. But nobody in that group is under the illusion that it is based on the rules as written. House rules are ok.