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I've seen various discussions in which people have been belly-aching about the fact that space marine players can bring "free" vehicles and, in effect, effect a points disadvantage for their opponent. Whereas the opponent is playing an 1850 points list, a space marine player actually can have roughly 500 points more than that.

I wish to note the following:

First, this isn't really all that new. In the previous codex, assault marines (85 points for a 5 man squad) could choose to forgo their jump packs and take a free drop pod or rhino instead (a total "free" 20 points). Let's do the math. In an 1850, I could have chosen to go unbound and have taken 21 squads of assault marines with 21 FREE rhinos. That means that my opponent would be playing an 1850 point list, whereas the space marine player would actually have roughly a 2300 points list.

This was before the current space marine codex, and it's not even new. It was like that in 5th.

But funny thing is...

I don't recall "assault squad in rhino spam" being a huge thing before the current codex. Funny...why do you suppose that is?

Oh yeah....

Assault squads suck. Rhinos suck. And even if assault squads could have taken razorbacks, nobody would have bothered: razorbacks suck. Their armor is paper thin.

People want to complain about a "points disadvantage" if their space marines opponent takes a battle company. My answer to this?

We must disinguish between de jure and de facto points disadvantages. If the codex explicitly says "you can take 15 extra free points,that's a de jure points advantage. If, on the other hand, the codex says "a wraithknight costs x points," but, in point of fact, it's commonly admitted that a wraithknight SHOULD cost 100 points more? That's a de facto points disadvantage. For every wraithknight you take and I don't, I'm at a 100 point disadvantage.

It goes the other way around: for every overcosted model I take and you don't, I'm at a de facto points disadvantage for every overcosted model I take. If it's agreed that a given model costs, say, 20 points, but only should cost 15, then I'm at a de facto 5 point disadvantage for every model I take.

The gladius strike force battle company is completely fair because this is the situation that "fluffy" space marines list find themselves in already. To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game.

You say that we get free points and that you are at a points disadvantage?

I say that, in point of fact, we were already at a de facto points disadvantage and this actually balances things out.

Fact is, you don't like the gladius strike force because you were used to tabling your "fluffy" space marine opponents, because you were happy about the fact that your space marine opponents who took assault squads, devastator squads and lots of tactical squads stood essentially no chance of beating you.

Well I'm sorry: But I don't feel your pain.

Because fact is, whereas you are complaining about the "unfair" bonuses that space marine battle companies get, Eldar, Necrons, Tau, Demons, Demonkin, etc. are still a thing.

But don't worry: no matter how many "free" razorbacks or rhinos I take, that wraithknight and those scatterbikes are still going to shoot me off the table. So you can rest easy.

"To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game."

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait. You're serious. I'll laugh harder!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Crack open the Guard, Ork or CSM codices at some point in the future. You'll see how spoiled C:SM players really are.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
"To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game."

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait. You're serious. I'll laugh harder!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Crack open the Guard, Ork or CSM codices at some point in the future. You'll see how spoiled C:SM players really are.

I don't really have much sympathy for guard or the CSM. Both codices have the ability to spam high strength, low AP pie plates.

I will grant that the "base" CSM troop deserves a boost, though.

"Razorbacks suck"

Yeah I don't think we've EVER seen 3-4 editions where spamming the maximum number of razorbacks was the dominant meta build.

the_scotsman wrote:
"Razorbacks suck"

Yeah I don't think we've EVER seen 3-4 editions where spamming the maximum number of razorbacks was the dominant meta build.

That may have been true in 5th and prior. In 6th edition and onwards? If razorbacks weren't free, it would be a really hard sell to take them on their own merits. 55 points for a transport that:

1. Can only carry 6 people.
2. Is armed with a twin linked heavy bolter
3. Has a cumulative AV value of 32
4. Has no firing points and
5. Does not have the "assault" rule.

No thanks.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually use razorbacks as transports. They're effectively a 55 point marine carrying a TL heavy bolter and can move 12 inches a turn. They also provide some mobile cover for troops behind them. People who wanted actual mobility went for rhinos instead.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
"To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game."

70 points for Assault and Devastator Squads, 70 for Tacticals.
280 for the 4 5 model Assault/Devastator Squads before adding anything. Jump Packs are 3ppm for Assault Squads and remove their ability to take a free transport.
420 for the 6 5 man Tactical Squads.

You're looking at 880 points, minimum, for 2 Battle Demi-Companies containing 6 Tactical Squads, 2 Assault Squads, 2 Devastator Squads, a Chaplain, and a Captain. That gets you 52 models in total before you add any Auxiliary or Command formations (you need to include an Auxiliary choice to get the Command Benefits). Assuming you go for the Librarius Conclave and don't give extra Mastery Levels, that's got you at 1075 points for 55 models so that you got to take Razorbacks, Rhinos, or Drop Pods as Dedicated Transports for free--but you're still paying for any upgrades.


Sure, the Gladius gives you free DTs--but if you're taking anything but Drop Pods? You're doing it wrong.

Crack open the Guard, Ork or CSM codices at some point in the future. You'll see how spoiled C:SM players really are.

I play Guard, Skitarii, and have been working on a Talon Strike Force and have been known to throw down my brother's Ork army from time to time. Yes, C: SM has some good choices.
Devastators and Assault Marines aren't part of that list however.

In fact, Devastators and Assault Marines are directly competing with the GOOD choices for those slots in a Gladius. You can take Devastators OR Centurion Devastators, Assault Marines OR Assault Centurions. If you take those Centurions however they do not get to benefit from the "free Dedicated Transports" as they cannot take any of the specified DTs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen anyone actually use razorbacks as transports. They're effectively a 55 point marine carrying a TL heavy bolter and can move 12 inches a turn. They also provide some mobile cover for troops behind them. People who wanted actual mobility went for rhinos instead.

If the Reclusiam Command Squad had not come with a Razorback, I would not own one.

GSF'S have been performing extremely well at tournaments on par with other hideously broken builds. That should be enough to tell you its absurdly abuseable.

Yes, assault marines could exchange their jump packs for a transport, this was a roughly equal point cost exchange when first introduced and traded inherent mobility for an additinal element of maneuver, this was not the same thing as getting to take both options, which is effectively the kind of points bonus you get with the GSF.

Playing a 2500pt army versus another players 2000pt army isnt going to be fair. If I could take free Chimeras for an IG army in the manner that SM's can, i could very easily stuff in another 3-5 battle tanks and roll through with two dozen vehicles on a board...nobody would consider that fair, because it isnt.

Ultimately, you're not going to convince anyone that getting to take a bunch of tanks and transports for free and getting to invest their points elsewhere is fair, because it isnt.

Traditio wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
"To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game."

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait. You're serious. I'll laugh harder!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Crack open the Guard, Ork or CSM codices at some point in the future. You'll see how spoiled C:SM players really are.

I don't really have much sympathy for guard or the CSM. Both codices have the ability to spam high strength, low AP pie plates.

I will grant that the "base" CSM troop deserves a boost, though.

yes...because thats what wins games in 7E...not.

Both of these armies perform abysmally in 7E. 7E is not a game where spamming pieplates works, and these armies arent even the best at that tactic in this edition.

One will notice that neither army is getting anywhere near top spots in tournaments as anything but rump allies to a more powerful force.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
"To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game."

70 points for Assault and Devastator Squads, 50 for Tacticals.

Tacticals are 70 points for the minimum 5 man squad, without upgrades.

In fact, Devastators and Assault Marines are directly competing with the GOOD choices for those slots in a Gladius. You can take Devastators OR Centurion Devastators, Assault Marines OR Assault Centurions. If you take those Centurions however they do not get to benefit from the "free Dedicated Transports" as they cannot take any of the specified DTs.

Yup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:Yes, assault marines could exchange their jump packs for a transport, this was a roughly equal point cost exchange when first introduced and traded inherent mobility for an additinal element of maneuver, this was not the same thing as getting to take both options, which is effectively the kind of points bonus you get with the GSF.

Jump packs for 5 assault marines is 15 points. It has been since 5th edition. A rhino has been 35 points since fifth edition. A drop pod has been 35 points since 5th edition.

Playing a 2500pt army versus another players 2000pt army isnt going to be fair.

You completely ignored my point about de facto vs. de jure points inequalities.

Traditio wrote:
I don't really have much sympathy for guard or the CSM. Both codices have the ability to spam high strength, low AP pie plates.

Hmm, what?

De facto vs de jure points inequality is an entirely different discussion that varies highly depending on thr forces involved, but none of the units in qusetion are amongst the most overcosted or undercapable in the game by a longshot, but rather the standard by whic all others are measured

Furthermore, I wish to ask this question to all of the people who are complaining about it:

When is the last time you got tabled by a battle company?

Traditio wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
"To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game."

70 points for Assault and Devastator Squads, 50 for Tacticals.

Tacticals are 70 points for the minimum 5 man squad, without upgrades.

I was going to do a comparison of a Guard Squad and got sidetracked. Only explanation I can think of for the 50 point Tacticals.

 Vaktathi wrote:
De facto vs de jure points inequality is an entirely different discussion that varies highly depending on thr forces involved, but none of the units in qusetion are amongst the most overcosted or undercapable in the game by a longshot, but rather the standard by whic all others are measured

Oh. So tactical marines aren't commonly said to be "useless" and a "troop tax"? Assault marines weren't considered to be a joke/useless fast attack choice in the last codex? Devastators were never considered underperforming or overcosted?

While the free points of transports are pretty good, the Gladius Strike Force's true overwhelming power is in MSU OBSEC.

It is quite obnoxious to play against. They have 8 OBSEC transports, and once you kill those transports, they have 8 OBSEC units. Then you factor in Warlords, giving them outflank, etc, it just leads to them grabbing any objective they want.

500 free points of OBSEC transports is amazing~. At that point, it doesn't even matter if they are paper thin. MSU OBSEC spam is really, really damn good. And annoying as hell.

I just read the topic, here's my LOL. Hint: Points are there for a reason.

Please no, try not to tell us that free points are a hindrance. Next game I'll bring every unit a freebie, whether it's a grav gun or melta bomb, it just doesn't matter. Why? Because I pay the penalty of having the unit in the first place.

Did I LOL already?

HondaDaBest has it spot on.

It's not the free units in themselves it's the free Ob Sec. Gladius wins games by survival, not annihilation.

HondaDaBest wrote:
While the free points of transports are pretty good, the Gladius Strike Force's true overwhelming power is in MSU OBSEC.

It is quite obnoxious to play against. They have 8 OBSEC transports, and once you kill those transports, they have 8 OBSEC units. Then you factor in Warlords, giving them outflank, etc, it just leads to them grabbing any objective they want.

500 free points of OBSEC transports is amazing~. At that point, it doesn't even matter if they are paper thin. MSU OBSEC spam is really, really damn good. And annoying as hell.

1. Even if that were a criticism, that's a criticism of a specific set of chapter tactics and a specific IC or set of ICs. It literally doesn't apply to someone who plays Ultramarines, Imperial fists, etc.

2. That's basically what I'm talking about: "But I can't kill all of those transports and all of the units in them!"

In other words: "Boo hoo, I was used to tabling my space marine opponents."

As I said: I don't feel your pain.

Traditio wrote:
But don't worry: no matter how many "free" razorbacks or rhinos I take, that wraithknight and those scatterbikes...

To paraphrase: "It's not quite Eldar spam, therefore it's OK!"

Traditio wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
De facto vs de jure points inequality is an entirely different discussion that varies highly depending on thr forces involved, but none of the units in qusetion are amongst the most overcosted or undercapable in the game by a longshot, but rather the standard by whic all others are measured

Oh. So tactical marines aren't commonly said to be "useless" and a "troop tax"? Assault marines weren't considered to be a joke/useless fast attack choice in the last codex? Devastators were never considered underperforming or overcosted?

They are referred to in this way depending on who you ask, but its not unique to them, most basic infantry units are seen in this light depending on who yiu ssk. Guardsmen, Boyz, CSM's, DE Warriors, Fire Warriors, etc.

You really want bad? Look at IG platoon units.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
"To get free transports, the space marine player has to take 6 tactical squads, 2 devastator squads and 2 assault squads, squads of what are arguably the most overcosted and underpowered units in the game."

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Oh wait. You're serious. I'll laugh harder!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Crack open the Guard, Ork or CSM codices at some point in the future. You'll see how spoiled C:SM players really are.

Or Tyranid!! Don't forget the Tyranid codex!!

OP creates thread to defend how broken an army is.

People explain why its broken.

Gets defensive, dismisses anything not agreeing with the statement in the OP.

I'm sure this will go so well.

Vaktathi (as usual) is spot on. Tourney results indicate its strong. Piles of anecdotal evidence indicate its strong. Spending three minutes looking at how powerful it is by simply reading and doing some basic math indicates its strong.

You can maybe argue its not the single most powerful combination in the game, but its a hell of a lot of better than the overwhelming vast majority of builds, especially in codices not beginning with Eld, Nec, Tau or Space Marine.

 Blacksails wrote:
OP creates thread to defend how broken an army is.

People explain why its broken.

Gets defensive, dismisses anything not agreeing with the statement in the OP.

I'm sure this will go so well.

Vaktathi (as usual) is spot on. Tourney results indicate its strong. Piles of anecdotal evidence indicate its strong. Spending three minutes looking at how powerful it is by simply reading and doing some basic math indicates its strong.

You can maybe argue its not the single most powerful combination in the game, but its a hell of a lot of better than the overwhelming vast majority of builds, especially in codices not beginning with Eld, Nec, Tau or Space Marine.

I repeat my challenge:

Would anyone care to tell me about the last time that you got tabled by a battle company?

I'm waiting.

Essentially all I'm hearing from you people is: "But it's difficult to table it!"

Again, I repeat my challenge:

Why was nobody complaining, last codex, about the possibility of spamming assault marines and "free" drop pods or rhinos?

It doesn't table people. It picks off objectives.

Guys...it has nothing to do with power level and everything to do with mission design.

Maelstrom missions, as well as many of the hybrid mission formats that TOs use at the larger tournaments, in an effort to balance a totally unbalanced codex landscape, reward players for scoring objectives each and every turn of the game rather than just at the end. So, armies that were once built to just table their opponent and win through brute strength/firepower, are now being drowned and outplayed by super mobile MSU lists that are just in it to score the objectives.

I'm not sure if it's a better game, but it is a different game...one that free obsec transports are REALLY good at winning.

Traditio wrote:


I repeat my challenge:

Would anyone care to tell me about the last time that you got tabled by a battle company?

I'm waiting.

Why is that the standard?

Should the standard not be something more reasonable, like say...how easy it is to win? How difficult it is to face?

Tabling is not, nor should be the standard of determining how broken something is. When you can win by simply outscoring, outsurviving, and dealing sufficient damage back, we can safely conclude its very powerful, or in other words, overpowered.

Again, tournament results and countless piles of analysis, bat reps, and discussions have all agreed its incredibly powerful.

Razorbacks suck... that's why nobody ever spams immolators... aka 60-point razorbacks... mhm...

I got tabled (well, I had 2 Termi's left at the bottom of 5 whrn the game ended) by a GSF probably three weeks ago if that counts.

But, as noted earlier, tabling an opponent isnt the only measure of powet, the bigger thing is that they get so many scoring maneuver elements that they can make it impossible for another army to score objectives.

 JimOnMars wrote:
It doesn't table people. It picks off objectives.

Other codices can't spam infantry that have objective secured and cost fewer points than space marines?

How many boys can an ork player fit in an 1850 points list?

How many guardsmen?

It's not our fault that certain people want to put all of your points into giant, OP nonsense.

Traditio wrote:

Essentially all I'm hearing from you people is: "But it's difficult to table it!"

I want to pull this out here and explain very clearly.

Nobody is saying that, nor is it even remotely implied.

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to actually read what people are saying and argue that. Right now you're putting words in people's mouth (incorrect ones) and plugging your own ears.