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So this came up in the ME SBG N&R thread and I thought it might be fun to kick around a bit and see if we can get this to make any sense.

How would you stat a Chaos Daemon?

How would you stat a Stormcast Eternal?

I tend to think of the protypical SBG statline being the Rohan Warrior. With the WHFB/AoS setting, I guess that would be Empire State Troops/Freeguilders?

I think the place to start is with the profile for a basic, unarmoured human with a hand weapon. The WFB version would be Empire State Troops, or maybe Militia. So:

Points: 5
F: 3/4+
S: 3
D: 3
A: 1
W: 1
C: 3
Move: 14cm/6"

Basic rule of thumb is that every change up or down is +/-1 point per change, Armour, Shield, Bow and Spear all at 1 point each, Heavy Armour. Pikes, Elf Bows, Crossbows at 2 points, Special Rules at between 1 and 5 points based on their potency.

That gives us a base to work from, I'll drop back in tomorrow/later with some more thoughts and a few profiles.

I think before you start churning out stats, the first thing we need to do is figure out how certain key elements of Fantasy would translate.

The first of these is Magic. Magic is a crucial part of the Fantasy Universe, to the point where it has it's own phase. In LOTR though, magic is much more subtle and less game deciding. There are a few spells like Kardush's fireburst that could be made more widely available as direct damage spells, but some invention might be necessary, as well as some debate on how big a part they should play.

The second would be warbands, namely, is 12 models plus a hero suitable, or should it be scaled up? If so, how far?

Thirdly, gunpowder weaponry. These make regular appearances in WFB, but have no immediate LOTR counterpart. Cannons can be accounted for by hybridising a few existing rules (The 'Hurl' brutal power attack for monsters with existing siege weapon rules should do it), but blunderbusses and rockets and suchlike would need some thought. Crossbows would also need adjusting to make them more lore-appropriate.

Special equipment on heroes is a major factor in WFB, but not in LOTR. Should that be preserved?

Invulnerable saves have no direct equivalent in LOTR. How would they be best represented?

Luckily, we already have monster, chariot, monstrous mount, flying creatures, basic siege weapon and so on available as rules, making a stat port reasonably painless once the above is resolved.

My goal would be to err toward preserving the elegance of SBG over capturing the huge variation of WHFB/AoS. Magic is the area I would be most willing to compromise on because magic (read Chaos) is infinitely more important to Warhammer than to Middle-earth. Magic could well prove to be the main obstacle, IMO.

Yeah, I was just getting the base stat-block out there so we're all on the same page when it does come to statting things up.

I'd agree with Manchu that simplicity that makes LotR great should win out over a billion and one special rules, magic being the main exception. A few ideas off the top of my head:

The closest LotR has to Ward Saves is Fate, so perhaps items/abilities that boost/provide Ward Saves would instead allow a better chance of passing Fate. A 4+ is the standard, a Shield Of Warding would let you pass on a 3+, a Spell of Save Bettering would add 1 to whatever your current Ward Save/Fate target is (or add a 6+, Fury-style, if the target doesn't have one). The alternative is just to build it into Defence, but that might get some Defences far too high.

- Guns I'm thinking will be Move Or Shoot S5 weapons with significant range... perhaps with a 'Reload' rule that prevents them being fired in consecutive turns, thus creating/continuing the natural mobility/speed vs power trend that goes Thrown Weapons>Bows>Crossbows and now Guns. Artillery probably needs more significant reworking, so I'd leave that for now.

- On heroes and Warbands, one option is to scrap that entirely, and move to a %-based system like Warhammer used to have; as the three of us discussed recently, Warbands are there to encourage/force more heroes, while in WFB the aim was capping them to prevent uber-heroes everywhere; if we're going for that more over-the-top, game-changing and highly customisable approach to heroes, that might be something to consider. From what I remember of Warhammer, 8th, spending a almost quarter of your points on one model with loadsa gear was pretty common, and while I don't know how well this calibre of hero would translate to LotR compared to the more grounded approach LotR itself takes, I kind of think it fits the setting best if that kind of character can exist.

Alternatively, we could take directly from WFB here, and set Maximum and Minimum Warband size sper unit, and not allow mixing within Warbands; it's a departure from LotR again, but very much a part of WFB if that's something we're trying to recreate. So instead of having 1 hero and up to 12 of any kind of warriors, you could have:

High Elf Sea Guard: 1 Captain, 10-30 Sea Guard, 0-1 Banner, 0-1 Musician
High Elf Swordmasters: 1 Captain,5-10 Swordmasters, 0-1 Banner, 0-1 Musician

This functions both to limit spam of more elite units (something LotR maybe doesn't do), retains the traditional 'block-style' army selection of WFB and allows a little more variation between units and armies (forcing a Goblin Horde and an elite Elven army to have the same troops:hero ratio doesn't make much sense to me).

All just brainstorming, so there may well be some big issue there I've missed.

I certainly think for non-Hero models that had ward saves (daemons and the like) it could get built into defense, if only for simplicity.

Bloodletters could also be F4, S4 and D4

Daemonettes could stay at D3, but instead be F4 and A2 (or maybe have them be D4 as well and Bloodletters be F5, but that could be too much).

Plaguebearers could be D5, with Nurglings being D3, W3, A3 but F2.

Until changes to Magic have been decided upon though, I'm not sure what Pink Horrors could have. Until then I'm going to say maybe the Resistant to Magic rule while staying D3 and have a Dwarf or Elf bow equivalent shooting attack?

They could all probably get Terror or Fearless (both would be a bit much) too.

So that would put them at around the 10-12 point range each I believe, with Nurglings being about 18-23

Maybe daemons could have extra D against weapons of a certain type such as slashing weapons (swords). Also a load of USRs would have to be invented imho. Fleet, for example, for slaaneshi daemons.

As for gunpowder stuff, we only have Saruman's devilry as a canon example which is extremely clunky to use (you even have to pass a courage test to do it) and carry but very potent. I don't think primitive gunpowder guns should have longer range than bows. I'd say about 18" range and -2 to-hit penalty if you've moved for a basic gun. OR make the guns inaccurate the further away the target is. The reload mechanic would be problematic if it allowed moving while loading because the unit could unleash a hell on some unit and then kite the enemy without real penalty.

Stuff like Fleet wouldn't be needed, you can just increase the Move stat 20cm rather than 14cm for example. That's pretty much the fundamental difference between WFB and LotR; LotR tends to incorporate stuff into the basic stat block and go light on special rules as much as possible, while WFB likes lots of special rules. As far as we can, I think we ought to stick to the former here.

I agree.
Daemons for example could simply all have 1 point of Fate representing their otherworldly nature. (That would involve a lot of book keeping though to be fair so maybe there's an easier way to do it).

I think that would be crazy unique in a game like LOTR, but would manage it without messing with the core mechanics.

It would be difficult to get the same level of granularity, maybe impossible, but it's also arguable that we wouldn't really need it. Interesting stuff here. I think Daemons and Ogres are two of the harder armies to transfer (unless you just power Ogres up to make them all Cave Trolls.)

I'd imagine Orges would be similar in power to the Far Harad Half Trolls, though the case could be made that they could be D5 (or hell, even D4) W3 instead of D6 W2 (which is what the Half Trolls are).

 Ketara wrote:
I think before you start churning out stats, the first thing we need to do is figure out how certain key elements of Fantasy would translate.

Good idea! In large part, I think we need to decide if we want to adapt WFB units and heroes to the SBG rules, or adapt the SBG rules to duplicate the units and heroes as they play in WFB?

The first of these is Magic. Magic is a crucial part of the Fantasy Universe, to the point where it has it's own phase. In LOTR though, magic is much more subtle and less game deciding. There are a few spells like Kardush's fireburst that could be made more widely available as direct damage spells, but some invention might be necessary, as well as some debate on how big a part they should play.

Personally, I'd rather see magic take a supporting role, more like SBG, rather than trying to port WFB spells over directly. I would not mind seeing a few more magic users with directed damage spells like Kardush's Fireburst, but avoid porting over the more powerful WFB spells.

The second would be warbands, namely, is 12 models plus a hero suitable, or should it be scaled up? If so, how far?

I don't necessarily see keeping the Warband system as a problem. Playing with Warhammer miniatures in a SBG setting we are not going to see the huge numbers of troops we saw in 8th ed as the SBG really doesn't support that size game. If people want a "big battle" game, it might be better to try moding the War of the Rings rules.

Cannons can be accounted for by hybridising a few existing rules (The 'Hurl' brutal power attack for monsters with existing siege weapon rules should do it), but blunderbusses and rockets and suchlike would need some thought.

I'd probably use the existing SBG warmachines as a starting point. For a cannon, start with the Mordor War Catapult and then decide how it needs to be different, while keeping in mind we don't need to exactly duplicate the WFB effects of a cannon to make it useful in a SBG setting. Likewise, look at the rules for the Mordor Siege Bow or similar Gondor and Dwarf weapons as a starting point.

Crossbows would also need adjusting to make them more lore-appropriate.

Why? Crossbows work differently in WFB and SBG but I don't see the problem in just giving Empire cross bows the same rules as Uru-hai crossbows or Corsair crossbows. I think the only thing that might need minor tweaking would be the DE repeater crossbows and even there I'd start with the standard SBG crossbow rules, if we want to maintain that difference from regular crossbows.

Special equipment on heroes is a major factor in WFB, but not in LOTR. Should that be preserved?

There is some presedent for special rules for magic items in SBG (Aragorn's Anduril, Saruman's Palintir, etc.) but I'd prefer to see this more limited that in WFB.

Invulnerable saves have no direct equivalent in LOTR. How would they be best represented?

A Fate bonus? Either a straight up +1 Fate, or a +1 to the roll?

To the greatest extent possible, why not leave everything about SBG undisturbed and just use it "counts as" Fantasy? So just use the same spell list from the Hobbit rulebook and "reskin" them as necessary.

I was thinking about that myself. I think the only big issue would be that there's actually no decent option for a good chunk of the Empire's troops (AFAIK), particularly the gunpowder ones.

And LOTR Orcs are pretty different to WFB Orcs. I thought of using the Half Trolls to represent WFB Orcs, but I'd forgotten they were so tough.

Rohan/Gondor - Human factions
Easterlings - Chaos Warriors
Harad/Corsairs - Dark Elves?
Elves - Elves!
Dwarves - Dwarves
Orcs - Skaven? Goblins?
Isengard - ???

I do think Daemons are the biggest challenge but SBG does have at least one thing that will really help - the spirit/banish dynamic.

Having posed the above questions, here are my thoughts on the subject:-

Magic:- As Manchu said, magic is a big part of Warhammer, to an extent that it isn't in LOTR (where Fury spam, and the odd transfix/blinding light/sorcerous blast is the recipe of the day). And as such, the LOTR game dynamic should be bent here most if anywhere at all.

I'm inclined to think that the easiest way to solve this issue is to gift most spellcasters the +1 free will per turn that the wizards have (as they draw on the winds of magic, which are inexhaustible). Naturally, the more important/powerful the mage, the higher the levels of reserve will/might/wounds/special gear/spell casting ease, as per normal. There's a slight paucity of direct damage spells in LOTR, but some minor invention/adjustment of the ones that do exist wouldn't be too problematic. If you cost wizards appropriately (probably in the 80-100 point price bracket for a basic wizard), they shouldn't break the game either.

On warbands, I'm inclined to raise the limit to 15. Warhammer is more about troops than heroes (unlike LOTR), and that should be reflected.

I'm afraid I don't gel with the 'move one turn and shoot another' principle on guns. If I have fifteen gunners and they're not moving and shooting completely cohesively, trying to keep track of which ones have moved this turn, and which ones cannot shoot adds a layer of complexity the game simply doesn't need. One potential (easy) way of differentiating them would be to make them multi-shot at a lower strength. Alternatively, they could made to function like crossbows (strength 4, no move) but at -1 to a users shoot value (to represent them being hard to aim with the kickback). A final way would be to restrict the range down to 18", and make them strength 3. I think the key rule here is to make it simple to use, so no having to keep track of ammunition or movement or anything.

With ward saves, I'm tempted to either slot it into additional defence or some form of fury save. To follow on what's been said above here, I think the goal is to retain the simplicity of play, and introducing some new kind of save is probably unnecessary. With daemons for example, a 5+ continuous army wide fury save has the same effect as a ward/invulnerable save, but there's already provision for it in the rules.

I think a spot more special equipment for heroes could be fun provided it's not too over the top.

Only trouble with those gun suggestions is that I'm now struggling to see what they bring that Crossbows don't, and I do think the two need to function somewhat differently. If anything, guns should have higher S, though perhaps a lower range (but even then, pretty sure in WFB the average rifle and crossbow had similar ranges).

I like that magic idea, nice and simple. A few new spells/analogues to WFB spells can be added as needed.

Fury-esque saves seem the best option, just add a 'Demon' special rule that states 'this model always counts as under the effect of the Fury spell' and you're good to go.

How about a variable strength on the muskets?That would be reasonably easy to use (all it takes is a quick measure). So within 12" is Strength 4, within 18"is Strength 3 and within 24" is Strength 2? That would represent the limitations of primitive gunpowder weapons reasonably well.

Also, shouldn't this really be in the Game Design forum?

That works. Though I'd say S5/4/2 for those same range bands, there has to be something to make guns worth white over Crossbows, and S5 at close range provides that. Also, I think it makes sense physics-wise that in the right circumstances, a gun should do much more damage than a crossbow.

How about Strength 5 within 6 inches? Keeps with the theme rather than jumping down 2 strength,

 Ketara wrote:
Also, shouldn't this really be in the Game Design forum?

I thought about that - but I think it is better here where people who know and love SBG are most likely to see it.

 Manchu wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Also, shouldn't this really be in the Game Design forum?

I thought about that - but I think it is better here where people who know and love SBG are most likely to see it.

Ah, but what about people who like WFB?

 Da Boss wrote:
I agree.
Daemons for example could simply all have 1 point of Fate representing their otherworldly nature. (That would involve a lot of book keeping though to be fair so maybe there's an easier way to do it).

I think that would be crazy unique in a game like LOTR, but would manage it without messing with the core mechanics.

It would be difficult to get the same level of granularity, maybe impossible, but it's also arguable that we wouldn't really need it. Interesting stuff here. I think Daemons and Ogres are two of the harder armies to transfer (unless you just power Ogres up to make them all Cave Trolls.)

How about Daemons giving you a 'pool' of Fate points?

Something like: for every 3 Daemons you take in your force, you get a fate point added to your 'pool'. You can only use the fate points in the pool on non-Hero Daemon models in your army.

Reduces a lot of the book-keeping by bringing it all into one pool, isn't (in my opinion) too overpowered and gives you some tactical choices to make when it comes to which Daemons and fights to spend your Fate points on.

So what you're saying is that I'd have to deal 20 wounds before you started losing models? Since a new fate dice can be rolled each time one fails.

Well, you've got to pass the fate test too, so if someone wants to burn through their entire pool of fate saving one wound they can, I suppose. If it seems unbalanced, knock the ratios up to 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 or even higher as necessary.

 Robin5t wrote:
Well, you've got to pass the fate test too, so if someone wants to burn through their entire pool of fate saving one wound they can, I suppose. If it seems unbalanced, knock the ratios up to 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 or even higher as necessary.

And what if they're lucky with their fate rolls? Odds are, they'll only have to roll two dice to pass it. If they have twenty plus dice, that means again, that I have to cause ten plus wounds before I can kill anything. If these dice are only good on non-heroes, then they have absolutely no reason NOT to burn through all their dice before taking a single wound, it lets them deal out as much damage as possible to me before taking any back. By the time I've finally dealt that ten to fifteen wounds (which would normally be enough to kill half of someone's army), they'll have killed half my army back, and I'll just get surrounded and massacred before I can even begin to compete with the weight of attacks heading back my way.

Sorry, but that just sounds like a completely game breaking concept on every level. Either there's too many dice and it auto-wins for you, or there's not enough dice (i.e. only three to five) in which case there's little point in having it as a rule. I just don't see that rule as having a middle ground I'm afraid.

OK. Swing and a miss, I guess.

Can't think of any other way to try and implement ward saves on units.

Though to be honest, do you even need ward saves? It seems like one of the things lacking an equivalent that you could feasibly do without, unlike more overt magic and gunpowder.

One other core mechanic that has occurred to me which may need adjusting is the allies one. IN LOTR, you have Good and Evil clearly delineating what can ally with what. Since it would be daft to be fighting a Tomb Kings/Empire/Wood Elf force though, there should be some form of restriction placed upon the mechanic.

The easiest way I think to do this, would be to lay down that allies can only come from one other list as laid out in an allies matrix chart, and stipulate that they may comprise no more 33% of an army's total models. That would allow for flexibility in taking allies, but nothing too broken or unfluffy.

Something I just knocked up as an example of how easy this would actually be. And yes, I'm aware of the fact the picture has a halberd, but the option isn't there, as well as that the pricing should be 6 points.

 Ketara wrote:
Something I just knocked up as an example of how easy this would actually be. And yes, I'm aware of the fact the picture has a halberd, but the option isn't there, as well as that the pricing should be 6 points.

This is a perfect baseline to start with.

I'm currently working on the LOTR:Empire rulebook. I'm splitting it into several warbands which can each all with each other (contrary to what I said above), and thought I'd ask for feedback on it. Essentially, it boils down to these lists:-

Armies of the Empire

Heroes
Karl Franz
Marius Leitdorf
Ludwig Schwarzhelm
Elector Count
Captain of the Empire
Markus Wulfheart
Valmir Von Raukov
Boris Todbringer
Aldebrand Ludenhof

Warriors
State Troops (access to Halberds, Shields, Crossbows, Bows, Spears)
Free Company Militia
Greatswords
Pistoliers
Huntsmen
Great Cannon
Mortar

Faithful of the Empire

Heroes
Grand Theogonist Volkmar
Luthor Huss
Ar-Ulric
Warrior Priest
Witch Hunter
Templar Grandmaster
Templar Captain

Warriors
Free Company Militia
Huntsmen
Flagellants
Teutogen Guard
Knights of the Blazing Sun
Knights of the White Wolf

Orders of the Empire
Heroes
Kurt Helborg
Theodore Bruckner
Valten
Templar Grand Master
Templar Captain

Warriors
Knights Panther
Pistoliers
Outriders
Reiksguard
Reiksguard Knights
Demigryph Knights

Mages of the Empire

Heroes
Balthazar Gelt
Elspeth Von Draken
Wizard Lord
Battle Wizard

Warriors
State Troops (access to Halberds, Shields, Crossbows, Bows, Spears)
Luminark of Hysh
Celestial Hurricanum

Engineers of the Empire

Heroes
Master Engineer

Warriors
State Troops (access to Halberds, Shields, Crossbows, Bows, Spears, Handguns)
Pistoliers
Outriders
Great Cannon
Mortar
Helblaster Volley Gun
Helstorm Rocket Battery
Steam Tank
War Wagon



Some more Engineer or Knightly heroes could be good if anyone has suggestions?