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skrulnik wrote:Against AP3 every basic troop in every army in the game is down to making a cover save.

Yes, it IS a good argument against footslogging, isn't it?

Just popping in rq. (I know, I lied.)
Bought the WD. The thing that the scanned pages and typed out descriptions didn't make clear (at least to me) was the order of the entries.

Assuming that they entered them like they would in a real codex:
Canoness HQ
Priests HQ/elite
Conclave elite/retinue
Repentia elites
Penitent engines elites!
Battle sisters troops
Celestians troops
Dominions FA
Seraphim FA
Retributors Heavy
Exorcists Heavy

Probably someone else mentioned it before but I found the actual presentation and order a bit enlightening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would so field PEs as elites.

Melissia wrote:Even at friggin' eight points per model that doesn't seem very scary to my Guard army-- they're no better than guardsmen against AP3 templates or pie plates, reduced to making cover saves and hoping for the best.

I say the same thing about my tactical squads next to imperial guard (AND I PAY SIXTEEN!). It's as if you're comparing a book that you know no point values for and are comparing it to THE MOST BROKEN CODEX IN THE GAME (and you're doing it in very illogical and trollie ways). I'm sure you have a hell of a lot more troll fodder, but it's getting old. You don't know how much any of it costs, wait a month and then complain. You're perfectly welcome to complain about the lack of unit choices in the codex, but any comment on viability is absolute trolling trash since you couldn't possibly know if what you're posting is true or not.

Man, I can't wait to get my WD in the mail so I can finally see what y'all are jabbering on aboot, eh?

gr1m_dan wrote:

@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies. They are not going to just uber nerf us for LOLZ. They would be the perverse ones if they did that!

To be blunt. The Sisters of Battle are not Ward's Cherished Space marines chapters that he just Ego Strokes over. The Sister's are just about as SCREWED as any Xeno army codex at the moment. The DE might be an exception but I own 4000 points of DE. To me the DE are an almost army. It can win tournaments with the right player, but IMHO it is not a Tier 1 army. I rather play my SW's any day over my DE.

I feel your pain to all those that are are going to see the nerf hammer on an army that had wonderful playing history.

Redbeard wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

As I pointed out pages ago, Codex GK gives us the point cost for a WS3BS3S3T3 model in power armor; it's 14 points. That's a model that doesn't have faith points or any other special rule, and requires a specific HQ choice to be run as troops.

Sisters have special rules, and a higher BS, and you think they will be more then 25% cheaper? Then the aggressively costed models... oh yeah, in a codex written by Matt Ward, who, by pure happenstance, might be of some relevance with regards to the sisters.

Other then the desperate need to imagine some way the unreleased information will save the sisters, what exactly would justify Sisters being so much cheaper then Warrior Acolytes?

Adam LongWalker wrote:gr1m_dan wrote:

@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies. They are not going to just uber nerf us for LOLZ. They would be the perverse ones if they did that!

To be blunt. The Sisters of Battle are not Ward's Cherished Space marines chapters that he just Ego Strokes over. The Sister's are just about as SCREWED as any Xeno army codex at the moment. The DE might be an exception but I own 4000 points of DE. To me the DE are an almost army. It can win tournaments with the right player, but IMHO it is not a Tier 1 army. I rather play my SW's any day over my DE.

I feel your pain to all those that are are going to see the nerf hammer on an army that had wonderful playing history.

You must be pretty bad at dark eldar if you don't consider them top tier. You must also be pretty bad at remembering things if you think the sisters or witch hunters had a "wonderful playing history". People would of had to play them for that to be true. As it is they're the least popular book in the game. Necrons still mops the floor with them in units sold and they're the worst army in the game. Cruddace has managed to produce exactly one codex that wasn't broken and thats tyranids.

Adam LongWalker wrote:gr1m_dan wrote:

@Melissia have you seen the Codexes that Ward and Cruddance have done? Ok one is crap (nids) but the others have produced pretty decent armies. They are not going to just uber nerf us for LOLZ. They would be the perverse ones if they did that!

To be blunt. The Sisters of Battle are not Ward's Cherished Space marines chapters that he just Ego Strokes over. The Sister's are just about as SCREWED as any Xeno army codex at the moment. The DE might be an exception but I own 4000 points of DE. To me the DE are an almost army. It can win tournaments with the right player, but IMHO it is not a Tier 1 army. I rather play my SW's any day over my DE. But hey if you cant make them work then feel free to sell them cheap to me. I woul love an op army to play since I currently only have Eldar/CSM

I feel your pain to all those that are are going to see the nerf hammer on an army that had wonderful playing history.

Well you are very wrong then. I find DE are easily tier one and maybe in the top 3 codex catigory... But like either eldar its very dependant on the player... A good player can play DE as a teir 2 army. A great Player can abuse DE better then he can play BA or SW.

And as far as this new sisters thing I am with the group that says "Wait for the damn codex to come out, then complain"
Our local Sisters player has allready started bitchin... omg.. just wait till you knowthe final points and such.

ShumaGorath

You do not know me... nor my skill in this game.

Keep your opinion to yourself about people and how they play.

Buzzsaw wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

As I pointed out pages ago, Codex GK gives us the point cost for a WS3BS3S3T3 model in power armor; it's 14 points. That's a model that doesn't have faith points or any other special rule, and requires a specific HQ choice to be run as troops.

Sisters have special rules, and a higher BS, and you think they will be more then 25% cheaper? Then the aggressively costed models... oh yeah, in a codex written by Matt Ward, who, by pure happenstance, might be of some relevance with regards to the sisters.

Other then the desperate need to imagine some way the unreleased information will save the sisters, what exactly would justify Sisters being so much cheaper then Warrior Acolytes?

And a warrior with storm shield and power weapon is over twice the cost of a crusader. All of their war-gear options are expensive

Adam LongWalker wrote:ShumaGorath

You do not know me... nor my skill in this game.

Keep your opinion to yourself about people and how they play.

I don't need to know you. You're saying your army, which is placing very high in tournies and has incredible power against the current mech meta is tier two. That means you're either not good with them or you don't know what that term typically signifies.

None of the immediately preceding conversation merits the escalation in hostility. I would suggest taking a short break from the thread and coming back fresh and with a renewed commitment to courteous conversation.

Thanks.

OneMeanDuck wrote:And as far as this new sisters thing I am with the group that says "Wait for the damn codex to come out, then complain"
Our local Sisters player has allready started bitchin... omg.. just wait till you knowthe final points and such.

Why? We know what it's most likely to be like. Sure, it's possible they'll be eight points per model, just laughably unlikely. Even if they were, it'd still be a gakky codex turning an elite army into a horde army

I finally got a hold of the newest WD today. After getting over my heart attack at the $9 price tag (I haven't bought one in a while... I sound like like my grandpa... "Back in my day White Dwarf only cost and arm and leg!") I was actually pleased to see Sisters getting some attention. It makes me happy to see them in print, even if it isn't under the best of circumstances.

I couldn't help but notice that they pictured a Missionary along with a little fluff text... I was happy as a clam. Those two figures are some of my all time favorites and I like the concept of them too. Then I see they're not included with the units. What's up with that? I checked the GW site and those figures aren't listed. I'm disappointed- even though I have them already I wanted to get another pair as I've gotten much better at painting in the last 12 years. Rotten of GW to show them with the army but not make them available. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Can we hope they'll show up in the genuine codex?

Melissia wrote:

OneMeanDuck wrote:And as far as this new sisters thing I am with the group that says "Wait for the damn codex to come out, then complain"
Our local Sisters player has allready started bitchin... omg.. just wait till you knowthe final points and such.

Why? We know what it's most likely to be like. Sure, it's possible they'll be eight points per model, just laughably unlikely. Even if they were, it'd still be a gakky codex turning an elite army into a horde army

That doesn't make it laughable and the sisters book was never meant to be elite (and never was in practice). Also you don't know whats it's "most likely to be like". The last few codexes they made were all laughably codex creeped, with this pattern you're going to be sporting six point sisters and 30 point immolators with 9 meltaguns in every squad. But then you never do anything but complain when the word "sister" is used in any thread, so I don't expect a total lack of reason to cry "the sky is falling" to be meaningful enough to prevent you from doing it.

You hated the last book, you probably hated the one before. You hate the fluff, you hate the rules. You hate this now as well. We get it, you don't like the direction the sisters are going whatever direction they are going whenever they take a direction. You don't like things that move.

Dr Mathias wrote:I finally got a hold of the newest WD today. After getting over my heart attack at the $9 price tag (I haven't bought one in a while... I sound like like my grandpa... "Back in my day White Dwarf only cost and arm and leg!") I was actually pleased to see Sisters getting some attention. It makes me happy to see them in print, even if it isn't under the best of circumstances.

I couldn't help but notice that they pictured a Missionary along with a little fluff text... I was happy as a clam. Those two figures are some of my all time favorites and I like the concept of them too. Then I see they're not included with the units. What's up with that? I checked the GW site and those figures aren't listed. I'm disappointed- even though I have them already I wanted to get another pair as I've gotten much better at painting in the last 12 years. Rotten of GW to show them with the army but not make them available. Perhaps I'm missing something?

Can we hope they'll show up in the genuine codex?

At most we'll see finecast recasts.

youbedead wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:

Redbeard wrote:

JB_Man wrote:
Sisters were already mechanized if you wanted to win.

Although, common wisdom holds this to be true for the vast majority of codexes, including all imperial ones.

Though I'm sure there's a guy out there that thinks 6 squads of 20 foot slogging sisters is (will be) the baddest thing ever.

Close. I reckon 4 squads of 20 sisters, at a discounted (say 9ppm) cost, backed up with several specialist units, will be a solid list. This all hinges on the cost of those sisters though; at 11ppm, it isn't workable that way.

As I pointed out pages ago, Codex GK gives us the point cost for a WS3BS3S3T3 model in power armor; it's 14 points. That's a model that doesn't have faith points or any other special rule, and requires a specific HQ choice to be run as troops.

Sisters have special rules, and a higher BS, and you think they will be more then 25% cheaper? Then the aggressively costed models... oh yeah, in a codex written by Matt Ward, who, by pure happenstance, might be of some relevance with regards to the sisters.

Other then the desperate need to imagine some way the unreleased information will save the sisters, what exactly would justify Sisters being so much cheaper then Warrior Acolytes?

And a warrior with storm shield and power weapon is over twice the cost of a crusader. All of their war-gear options are expensive

The problem with that analysis is it reverses the equation: a warrior Acolyte with storm shield and power weapon is much more expensive then a crusader because crusaders are abnormally (one might say, insanely) cheap for their wargear, not beause acolytes pay a lot for their gear. The values for upgrades for acolytes are relatively consistent to the rest of the book, and indeed other codexes. Death Cult Assassins, Crusaders and Arco-Flagenants (GK version) are simply priced without rhyme or reason, in comparison to other codexes.

Or in comparison to units within the same codex, for that matter.

Melissia wrote:Or in comparison to units within the same codex, for that matter.

Exactly so.

Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

A riddle, wrapped in an enigma, slathered in rich, chocolaty nougat.

I hope Crusaders and Death Cults will be price a little less than their counterparts in codex Grey Knights. It's not like the ones in codex Sisters of Battle will benefit from +1 strength psychic powers. If only Shield of Faith stacked. Then we would have 2++ Crusaders.

Buzzsaw wrote:Matt Ward is a man of many mysteries.

Not least of all the correct spelling of his first name. :/

Hm, i dont know but...

A Ork boy have WS4, BS2, S3, T4, I2, A2, ld6, (7 w/ nob) 6+ and cost 6 points with FC and Mob Rule.

Space Marines Have All 4, A1, ld8, 3+ for 16 pts

Space Wolves get all 4, A1, ld8, 3+, Counter Strike, They Shall know know fear, Bolt Pistol, Bolter and CCW, for 15 points.

Crusaders get All 3, WS4, A1, ld8, 3++, Pw for 15 points

Assassins get All 3, WS5, S4, A2, ld8, 5+, 2 Pw for 15 points.

You really think that All 3, WS4, A1, Ld8, 3+, Boltgun, should cost 13 points?

By the warrior you cited, 1 points should buy +1 in all stats, after all, if you get a warrior, and put in him a Bolter and a Power Armor, he goes to 15 points, for 1 more points he becomes a marine...

A save of 3+, even 3++ could sound great, but it still have 1/3 chance of let you die, and its not cheap. T3 with a save of 3+ dont help a lot, 3+ with T5 cost only 23 points, 3+ with T4 and all 4, cost 16 points, why 3+ with T3 and all 3 should cost 15 points? Why that would cost 13 points? +1 in almost all stats cost more than 3 points, for sure...

Sisters should compensate for that with acts of faith, but that is not what happen: what S+1 (for 4) have of good for a unit with T3 and I3? What is so incredible about rallying a SB squad with a faith act, if marines do that automatically, and they have ld 8 anyway? Rending for Retributor, c'mon, thats pratically usefull to only one of the weapons they can get!!! And what those guys have done to seraphins nerfing them to I3 is awesomelly nonsense. After so much time waiting, and using those girls with high cost and outrageous statline, players just found theyr seraphins doing the only thing they ever done well, worse...

WD codexes can be underated, but please, its better the next edition come with nice new options and wargears, or else, those guys just screwed things up after all...

Wolf - before you ditch the whole concept of the new faith system it is STACKABLE (for now until it get's FAQ'd into the Warp).

That means Celestians can stack their 1+ S to however many Faith acts you can pull off. They've done this BECAUSE they nerfed our 3++ Faith and AP1 Bolter/CC Faith.

Non of us have played a full 1500 point game with the new points/warger all we have done is speculate.

I am looking forward to the new challenge and to see how the new faith works. With a good D6 on how many faith points you get it won't be that hard to pull an act off.

Seraphim can also double-tap their pistols (14 shots + two flamer templates, re-rolling failed to wound rolls)

The last time I checked into this thread it was thirteen pages of people fearful of the unknown running about yelling, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" without even having seen the second half of the codex. Twenty-two pages later, the same people fearful of the unknown are running about yelling, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!" without even having seen the second half of the codex.

No one is forcing you to read or post. Please remember that flamebaiting is against the rules.

Perhaps my post was a little inflammatory but it I mean to make a point about how silly it is to analyze a codex and then freak out about it, before we have even seen the whole thing, especially without knowing what the points values are. The entire thread has pretty much devolved into circular arguments about something none of us know everything about anyway. We might as well be arguing the nature of God himself.

Nobody could have expected a full book style codex ripe with many cool options out of something that was getting the WD treatment, so the reactions seem way overcooked. I'm really let down that we will all have to wait longer for a proper codex and new models, and would have preferred an extensive FAQ to bring the current codex in line with 5th edition, but the moment I heard about the WD codex I had an idea about what to expect.

The fact that this thread is thirty-five pages of moaning about what amounts to half of a codex is astonishing to me. I'd like to continue following and checking in on this thread because when the second half of the codex is eventually leaked, I'll probably hear about it here first.

Got my dice in front of me...

Imaginary Cannoness and imaginary Seraphim

Got 6 Faith points with Cannoness and 1 with Seraphim.

Got 4 off with Cannonness so +4 Initiative and Preferred Enemy for her and Seraphim. Got my Seraphim Faith off too so all re-roll any failed To Wound rolls in Shooting.

Got I7 Cannoness and I6 Seraphim.

This is at the assumed stackable Faith (which we assume because no where it tells we can't and it says all Faith can be tried multiple times. Old Codex we could try it once as it strictly said. This could change but for now I am playing it as so)

@augustus5:

What would you expect? Either look at it as the glass is half empty or half full. Veteran Sisters of Battle players are not happy from reading the first half. You can't us to be optimistic, that GW will suddenly have a change of heart, and bestow is with uber wargear and cheap guard points cost. GW has put very little effort into codex Sisters of Battle. The fact it's a 2 part White Dwarf with no new models is reason enough.

If you are sick and tired of reading pages and pages of players who are publicly voicing their discontent, then I have bad news. It won't change, not until the second half is release.

So either say something constructive or don't say anything at all.

And BTW, there's no promise the second half will be any better.

I am looking at it glass half-full for the time being. That said I enjoy a new challenge with a few new rules here and there.

That being said there are things I will miss but things gained. I will miss my epic Jet-Cannoness with a 2++ bashing her way through tanks and units...for around 130points (off top of my head-ish).

However we will now be getting more AoF on average and activating more too.

Out of interest, have Jacobus and Kyrinov been on the GW Online Store (in metal) at £10.25 for a while now (Witch Hunters HQ), or have they snuck back on since the release of this WD?