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 Fafnir wrote:
That's assuming you're just going for volume of plastic.

Furthermore, a kickstarter shouldn't be about "gaming the system," but actually backing a project.

Certainly. But the giving should go both ways. If $300 is the spot where Adam wants to keep it most beneficial then what do I benefit from going higher? If there had been another higher level that would encourage backers to go higher then it goes both ways. But everything currently above $300 is backers giving to KD and not the other way round.

Edit: Also, if KD is making a profit at $300 then one will still back the project even if splitting up the orders.

Kickstarter is not groupon and kickstarter is not a store. If a backer is at their budget limit I urge you to manage your pledge responsibly. I know myself and all the other fans that want to see the game expand appreciate the support, but its not worth compromising yourself.

I want to give everyone as much as possible, but I have to very very carefully manage the budget as everything moves forward. It's awful to say, but a dollar pledged on kickstarter... only equals roughly $0.64 when you take into consideration the amazon/kickstarter fee of 11%, the statistical fact that about 10% of backers never pay and that a ungodly amount 10-20% that goes to shipping companies. Then that $0.64 will go to paying for the entirety of the project before the money raised is taxed as pure income. Which for me being in Brooklyn NY, the tax bracket of state and federal puts it up to about 40%.

It's really like riding a roller coaster on a tight rope. Balancing between budget and expectations.

Edit: Well darn, you completely edited the post while I was replying to it . I should have quoted! I was referring to your breakdown of all the fees that come through Kickstarting, as compared to selling through a distributor.

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While true, you still make much selling direct than through a distributor, which is what you're doing through Kickstarter.

However, you've mentioned you might not go for major distribution in the future... so I guess we'll see there. But I have a feeling CMON will be selling this game in the future, similar to how they sell your current models, and as you've indicated is very possible.

Not trying to belittle anything here, just pointing out that a lot of companies are getting a lot done with a lot less money! I know that as the number of backers rise, the number of freebies you can offer has to get stretched out to compensate for the numbers.

But yes, most Definitely from the backers perspective, it's an investment. If people wanted to simply pre-order, they could wait until it was offered as such instead of paying a full YEAR ahead of time!

I viewed my pledges for Dreamforge, Trollfroged, and the Form 1 printer as investments in making a project happen that wouldn't otherwise, not a pre-order... that's the point of Kickstarter for me. It's also why I think I can wait to simply pre-order this when it becomes available, rather than "invest" now! Not that I don't think others shouldn't invest, it is a fantastic project that I've always been a huge fan of, but at 3/4 of a million dollars it has the funding to make it happen for sure... so my investment (and that is indeed how I view it, as a backer not a purchaser) is not necesary now.

I do understand there's a clear difference between "backer" and pure "investor", but I always understood that as one of benevolence on the part of the one offering the money (i.e., I'll give you this money now and not expect a stake in the company or interest, just the rewards listed). Certainly, it probably would've taken longer to make this game without the possibility of Kickstarter, so it is doing it's job very well, imo.

Impact miniatures published a breakdown of their KS as follows:


"This morning I was able to sit down and finalize all the project expenses of fullfilling the KickStarter and here is what the operating budget looks like to fullfill the KickStarter and create a small starting inventory for online store sales afterward:

Castings: $49700
Sculptors/Artists: $22200
Moulding: $ 9700
KS/Amazon/Drop Fees: $ 9400
Fullfillment Shipping: $ 8900
Allowance for Problems: $ 5199

TOTAL: $105099" (what the KS took)

A smaller KS, (and depending on what casting method Adam uses potentially a lot cheaper in terms of casting), but again it shows that a strong KS performance may not leave much (if anything) as 'profit'... other than getting your ideas to the market
Impact! believes in being upfront with our backers and our customers as much as possible ... so we wanted to share this now that the numbers are in.

Wow, it's awesome that Impact was willing to share those numbers. I guess it costs a lot to get things molded / cast at Trollforged but it makes sense, since they're doing the heavy lifting!

But yes, that's how I've always viewed my KS pledges... basically paying for the costs of making the goods, not so much the time of the creator (although I understand that this is necessary for some campaigns, and obviously if it is one's livelihood they have to make a living off of the time spent on it).

Trollforged is actually pretty cheap when compared to other methods.

I really, really like ED and we have been entertaining a very healthy dialogue.

And yes, I edited the post as I realized that I have been awake for 24 hours answering questions and that I should take the time to word things carefully in my zombie like state.

Dentry wrote:
BOLS: Kingdom Death: Monster - Preview Part 1

Wow, I had high expectations, but I'm simply blown away by the contents of the kits!

Just check out the options on the Phoenix armor kit;


That's a lot of options. And the Survivors themselves...



These really push the boundary between game pieces and art pieces. I'm very tempted to assemble the starting Survivors and just paint them like white stone.

I think one of the great things is the differing musculature on the male survivors, just compare the one in the post above with

Here is our projections for Endless: Fantasy Tactics.

Kickstarter Total: $23,783
After Fees/Non-Payment: $22,527
----

Sculpting - $11,500
Art - $4,475
Bases - $500
Dice - $1,260
Cards Est - $1200
Casting Est - $6,046
Packaging - $500
Shipping Est - $2,053
= $27,534

or $5,007 more than we got from the Kickstarter. Which is due to the constant flux of backers/droppers we had during the campaign and us not re-locking stretch goals; if we didn't have as many drop outs during the campaign I believe we could have easily cleared 40 to 50k. Luckly we have one semi-successful line already that will be able to tow the weight of Endless' Casting Fees, and our caster is awesome.

two clearly different people, and not just 'head swaps'

@Cyporiean, omg are you saying 50% of the backers didn't come thru?

 kingdomdeath wrote:
@Cyporiean, omg are you saying 50% of the backers didn't come thru?

No, just that we dealt with gaining/losing several thousand dollars every day of the campaign.. it was quite maddening.

I think Cyporiean means they had a fair number of backers pull out right at the end, the dropping them below previously unlocked stretch goals

Now they could have relocked them, but that would have been 1. mean and horrible and 2. might have caused other backers to pull out

so they were left funding models/casting that had not actually been paid for

Yes, I watch people cancel and repledge constantly. Its really... just bizarre social behavior!

I didn't even know you COULD cancel a pledge until I launched. Haha. And I've backed a pretty hefty number of projects!

I wonder what the future of kickstarter and tiny men will be. It is most certainly a very passionate and chaotic embrace right now!

On the crest of the wave,

As long as new backers get drawn in it will remain strong (I'd say the majority of collectors still don't know about KS), but the new blood is needed because us old hand will either run out of spare cash (or actually get round to using some of the rewards meaning we don't want so much new stuff)

I'd say the 'elephant in the room' is if a minis KS fails to deliver either becauce of miss-management/accident or worse because of fraud.... That would be a big problem and would frighten away a lot of first timers etc

It's also remarkable what people don't see in project descriptions..... Once poor chap didn't realise that the Reaper Bones KS was for plastic minis (rather than metal), despite it being the thrust of the whole campaign

 kingdomdeath wrote:
Yes, I watch people cancel and repledge constantly. Its really... just bizarre social behavior!

I didn't even know you COULD cancel a pledge until I launched. Haha. And I've backed a pretty hefty number of projects!

I wonder what the future of kickstarter and tiny men will be. It is most certainly a very passionate and chaotic embrace right now!

I think the future is bright!

And I'm sure you knew a pledge could be increased/decreased, which is effectively the same thing

Any expense of hundreds of dollars will result in passion, I think. For myself, I love KS but need to wait until things become available to buy for most projects now. Otherwise, I'm just mortgaging the future!

I lost about $10,000 in backing over the course of my project. And I had about 5 or six big pledges fail after the funding closed. One thing I woudl avoid if I were you Adam is allowing pledge-ups after the campaign closes. It is a NIGHTMARE trying to confirm.

When are you getting your next KS up, Tre? :p

Yeah - people suck. I remember seeing during the Relic Knights kickstarter every time a new stretch goal was close, some people would buy one of the big (5k or whatever) pledges to push it over the line, then drop it after the new goal was shown.

There should be a kind of fee for people who cancel their pledges, say 10% of the pledge or someting around this.
this would amortize te losses a little bit.
Or when pledging you should pay 10% of the pledged amount before the kickstarter ends to offer security, if not succesfully funded you would get the money right back.
Maybe some would then think more carefully about pledging way to much and then drop out.
I think this is a problem Kickstarter should really think about it as it can bring many of the smaller projects no matter in which range in huge trouble, making them pay even more then they get from the kickstarter.

Or, projects shouldn't make super limited rewards people have to rush to pledge for! In this one, you could pledge day 1 at a discount, but not know what you're getting.

Malifaux's current KS is even more extreme, week 1 pledge bonus, week 2 bonus, and now a possible bonus figure if enough folks up their pledges.

If you want to follow the KS model of stretches and getting current backers to up pledges, you have to deal with their decreasing pledges, too. Nature of the platform, and particularly, the way it is being used (which is not bad, imo, despite this drawback).

Or, we could let the crowdfunding campaigns themselves dictate what is and is not successful!

Even as puzzling an affair as Wyrd's KS could be deemed a 'success', even if it could have been a lot more 'successful'?

The best part of these things is that the consumers...er...investors...er...backers?...decide whether or not to put their hard earned money on the line, thereby determining whether or not a project is... a success?

Totally agreed Alph, the openess of the platform is what makes it special.

Indiegogo opperate such that you pay immediately you pledge

(but get it back if the project fails to fund assuming it's what they call a fixed campaign)

Indiegogo project are usually much less sucessful than the equivalent KS (i'd guess equivalent projects would bring in only about 20% or less of the cash)

there are other technical issues that probably contribute to this, but I'd say having to pay upfront is a turn off for many (especially the less committed who back thinking well I can always cancel, but are eventually won over)

project creators have to take acount of this with thier target and stretch goals (either build in a saefty margin, or don't unlock a stretch until you are safely past it)

and KS will boot out serial offenders... the KS creator can see who is pledging what and when so they can report those messing them arround (as opposed to meerly being indecisive)

that said it is VERY annoying

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:


and KS will boot out serial offenders... the KS creator can see who is pledging what and when so they can report those messing them arround (as opposed to meerly being indecisive)

I didn't know this, though I suppose it should have been obvious.

I'd gather that unless you frequently pull Pledge Shenanigans it would be hard to prove malicious intent - you could just say "I really wanted tha pledge level, but then the budget and common sense made me change my mind!"

I'm suspect it happened on relic knights as there was a nasty pattern of a pledge in the $1000s coming in to meet a stretch, then vanishing again soon after

and I'm fairly sure Reaper mentioned somebody had been warned (or similar) after a brief spate of the same in the middle of theirs

but it's like those DoTA key spammers there's not way to eliminate them completly without ruining everything for those who actually want to use the service

 Grobrotz wrote:
There should be a kind of fee for people who cancel their pledges, say 10% of the pledge or someting around this.
this would amortize te losses a little bit.
Or when pledging you should pay 10% of the pledged amount before the kickstarter ends to offer security, if not succesfully funded you would get the money right back.
Maybe some would then think more carefully about pledging way to much and then drop out.
I think this is a problem Kickstarter should really think about it as it can bring many of the smaller projects no matter in which range in huge trouble, making them pay even more then they get from the kickstarter.

Really?

So then what your really saying is that the KS is really a store.

You sell extras through a KS project, some projects move the bar, and then they decide that they are entitled to pledges.
As to other projects, there have been several that claimed one issue or another, then decided to not even say anything AFTER the end of the project, so to me- you are basicly suckling on public good will and never had intention of commiting to backers. Sorry if my sympathy is lacking.

The other projects, you know- like the ones that continue to keep showing up with more and more "Extras" for sale are victims of thier own success. I see that some have posted numbers, thats fine and dandy, but when you see them out there saying that they only had to have 10 or 20 thousand, then see the "Backers" that signed up only that day.... well sorry to be blunt, but in my eyes, thats why it is KS and not out of your own webstores. You got the money you asked for,anything else is extra. As a project, youd even actually think that extras would be just that. Extra for making bank, and continued success. Instead, some of them are out there acting like one of those rich banker types trying to dictate your money in their bank.

Several times a week, I'll change my mind, especially when you see a project simply not make thier goal, or not living up to the discussion of what they actually wanted. So if some people didn't get cake with thier candy, thats a little too bad, and the fact that you get any money at all should be enough, and I see it as bad form to cry over a half full glass.

Money talks. Thats why it is called Crowd funding.

THIS along with the "Elephant in the room" of companies using crowd funding as padding future projection for sales, and drumming interest just by adding in a well known name or two. Not to mention some that have touted KS as thier own private purse in future projects... no matter how they turn out.

I'll throw it out there too, that some LIKE Relic Knight were and are victims of thier own success. That one in particular had enough of a cheerleader crowd that they were past the point of crowd funding and into the realm of Kool Aid.

@KD
I've found an article related to tax on kickstarter. Just if you're unaware of, maybe you could refer the link below.
http://www.guenthertax.com/blog/2012/05/no-kickstarter-project-should-pay-income-tax-in-their-first-year/

I'm I'll pledge on this project for sure, but I'm wondering if i'll go for the game or the survivor pledge( plus the numerous expansions that I all want).

Will the duplicate of monsters (the second phoenix included at the survivor level) be usable in the game, or will you only be fightning one phoenix at the time ?

Thanks

The duplicates have no purpose in game. They're mainly for display purposes, or if you wanted to use them for other games.