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col_impact wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Sadly, Obyron doesn't have Deep Strike natively and the Ghostwalk Mantle doesn't grant it to him, so he can't do that :\

Deep strike is a USR that an IC attached to a unit will inherit. It's the same deal as the old Veiltek attached to Deathmarks.

Incorrect. All models in the unit must have Deep Strike on their own to be able to Deep Strike. Hence why the Veil gives the model Deep Strike now.

col_impact wrote:


Deep strike is a USR that an IC attached to a unit will inherit. It's the same deal as the old Veiltek attached to Deathmarks.

This statement is patently false.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Deep strike is a USR that an IC attached to a unit will inherit. It's the same deal as the old Veiltek attached to Deathmarks.

This statement is patently false.

I stand corrected. Got confused by the similar case of the old Veiltek deathmark combo, but I guess that works via NS or walking in from reserves and Veiling instead of walking and you had unlimited use of the veil.

So you could do the same with Obyron by Ghostmantling instead of walking in from reserves, but that just wastes his 1 use. However, if Zandrekh has moved to where you want him by then, that would benefit from being a surgically accurate deep strike. So some benefit.

col_impact wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Sadly, Obyron doesn't have Deep Strike natively and the Ghostwalk Mantle doesn't grant it to him, so he can't do that :\

Deep strike is a USR that an IC attached to a unit will inherit. It's the same deal as the old Veiltek attached to Deathmarks.

No, Deepstrike is not inherited. ALL models in the unit must be able to DS in order for the unit to DS.

The Veil, however, is an exception in that it allows the bearer and the unit he is in to DS. The Ghostwalk Mantle functions the same as the Veil in that it allows Obyron and his unit to DS onto the table.

From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.

Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.

However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.

Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.

However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.

Why would you do that though? If you want to use his Ghostwalk Mantle and deep strike them near Zahndrekh, just keep them way in the back of the table or in ruins or something way out of the way and then use it when it's ready. There's nothing more frustrating than failing reserves until turn 4.

Requizen wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.

Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.

However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.

Why would you do that though? If you want to use his Ghostwalk Mantle and deep strike them near Zahndrekh, just keep them way in the back of the table or in ruins or something way out of the way and then use it when it's ready. There's nothing more frustrating than failing reserves until turn 4.

Denying the opponent a target (in the case of for example a board layout with minimum terrain and the opponent having the ability to hit that unit at long range). It's not necessarily a tactical avenue you will take that often but nonetheless it is still there.

 MLKTH wrote:

 MLKTH wrote:

Hollismason wrote:


Is anyone trying out Scarab Farm?

I am, 5 game tourney today and tomorrow. I ended up taking the simpler list I posted first (CAD: CCB, 2 arks, 12 wraiths, 9 scarabs, 9 spyders), because keeping track of which unit belongs to the harvest and which doesn't, didn't feel like something I'd be able to do all weekend... I'll try to post a quick overview of how it went.

Well... Two points main points here: A) Scarab farm is a very powerful list and B) I can't play it for crap...

My own games are nothing worth reporting, I think I finished in the bottom third with only one major win out of five games, the rest being three narrow losses and one total defeat (it was a battle points tournament). CCB was pretty much useless, I won't be bringing it again for serious games. He's only real moment was scaring a unit of eldar jetbikes off the table with nightmare shroud's one use thingy. Otherwise the list was ok.

BUT, necrons piloted by better players did really well. The lists were something like this:

1st place

CAD
Zahndrekh
Orikan
2 x 5 immortals
2 x 6 wraiths
3 scarabs
3 x 3 spyders

Harvest
6 wraiths
4 scarabs
spyder

Wraiths had some coils and a couple spiders had prisms. Orikan (and mostly Zahndrekh) were with harvest scarabs or harvest wraiths. The guy playing this list was from the Finnish ETC team.


3rd place (played this on the first round)

CAD
Orikan
19 warriors
5 immortals
2 x 5 wraiths + 6 wraiths (all coils)

Cult
Destroyer Lord (scythe + nightmare shroud)
3x 2 destroyers + 1 heavy
3 heavy destroyers

Orikan & destrolord joined the warriors, doing re-rollable 2+ armour shenanigans.

EDIT: One thing that makes the scarab farm more powerful than before, and hasn't been discussed here, is that you no longer need to make new scarabs at the beginning of your movement phase. The codex says just "once per friendly movement phase". Which means you can move some or all spyder units and the scarab unit before adding more bases. That opens up an unbelievable amount of options for a player who can really exploit it, up to and including a first turn charge in some cases.

Can you go a little indepth on this as I think I know how he's doing it.

He starts the spyders and Scarabs both at the limit of the deployment, then moves the Spyders forward then adds to the unit behind him which means the extra scarabs get added to the front of the unit , so that when the scarabs move thy actually have moved up 18 inches or more depending on how many adds.

So Spyders all move in front of Scarabs 6inches, then start placing the Scarab adds behind them until their bases reach to where the Spyders are , then the whole Scarab squad moves with the front members of the squad being forward by 6 inches.

That's how he's doing it right?

The front newly made scarabs move 12" inches forward so they'd actually be 14 to 22 inches in front of your board edge., which would put them 6inches to 10 inches away from the front of your opponents deployment.

This is a really good tactic, that's a first turn charge. I'll draw it out in example form.

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.

Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.

However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.

Where is the restriction against charging after using the Ghostwalk mantle ?

Fragile wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:

In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.

Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.

Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.

However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.

Where is the restriction against charging after using the Ghostwalk mantle ?

It specifically calls it Deep Strike, so you can't.

I'm putting together my 9 tomb blades and I'm unsure how to arm them best. Either all gauss or a split of gauss and particle beamers. I originally was going to go all gauss and run them as a squad of 9 however If I drop 1 I can run two squads of 4 and have both the gauss and the particle Beamer options however at that point the squads seem a bit small. Any thoughts? Or have I missed a discussion earlier in the thread about this?

aceytrixx wrote:
I'm putting together my 9 tomb blades and I'm unsure how to arm them best. Either all gauss or a split of gauss and particle beamers. I originally was going to go all gauss and run them as a squad of 9 however If I drop 1 I can run two squads of 4 and have both the gauss and the particle Beamer options however at that point the squads seem a bit small. Any thoughts? Or have I missed a discussion earlier in the thread about this?

Gauss is the better option, but you want to make sure you have enough crowd control weapons in the whole list. So add as many particle beamers as needed to cover that hole if there is one.

The core of my list is 3x20 warriors with ghost arks, Lord and 5 immortals in a night scythe then either the canoptek harvest or deathbringer flight depending what I feel like playing. Or both in some larger games.

Had my first game last night with the new Necrons against... Necrons! - 2000 points

I ran;

Destroyer cult;

1 x Destroyer Lord
2 x Destroyers, 1 x HD
2 x Destroyers, 1 x HD
2 x Destroyers, 1 x HD
3 x Heavy Destroyers

CAD;

Orikan

5 x Immortals in a NS
5 x Immortals in a NS
10 x Warriors in Ghost ark
10 x Warriors in Ghost ark

5 x Lychguard w/ swords and shields
1 x Lord w/ warscythe and Veil of Darkness

He ran a Decurion with a Judicator Battalion, Star god and an Annihiliation nexus. Also had a ghost ark and a NS.

No wraiths!! I won on objectives around 3 to 9 (8 + first blood).

Synopsis;

(cant remember the game type it was a #1 on the chart with 3 x objectives each turn) Not having objective secured really hurt him this game, he also didn't have many fast moving opportunities to score objectives over my Obj secured immortals and deep striking destroyers. The Ctan (still a walking bullet magnet) died to VOF from the warriors for first blood and the AB's died to a number of shots from the HD's and the NS. I didn't actually manage to kill allot of his units/models but I controlled the game with my movement. Orikan and his Lychguard didn't come on till turn #3 and were out of the action for basically the whole game (should of started them on the board not in reserves I think). Im trying to think of what died but really not much! I lost a night scythe to warriors rapid firing and a ghost ark but that's about it.. talk about hard to kill!

Things I noticed;

1. The mix of heavy and normal destroyers is very good but I did find myself wanting to shoot the HD's at targets the normal destroyers couldn't hurt which wasted some shooting.

2. Small unit's of distraction destroyers deep striking onto objectives is awesome. Really breaks up the enemy's attack and being able to JSJ away makes destroyers able to move really well around the board.

3. I didn't really have any where to put the Destroyer lord.. I had him deep strike by himself. Next time im thinking I should put him in the Orikan unit as a caddy for the Veil of Darkness instead of the Lord.

4. Decurion Necrons are super tough! a unit of 10 x warriors held up my lone destroyer lord for 3 x turns (until game end). The combination of LD 10 and 4++ means you won't be sweeping warriors as easily as before. They may be a very good tar pit unit now?

Tomb Blades have three equal cost upgrades, so you can price them for two upgrades and just play 'em as best suited for different foes without any prior thought into shifting the list around.

Against Eldar, Tau and Vehicle Spam? Nebuloscopes and Shield Vanes. Gauss, ignores cover pierces 4+ and denies jink to skimmers.

Against Marines? Shield Vanes and Particle Beamers. AP4 ignores cover is useless against 3+ armour, but massed S6 templates should force failed saves.

Hordes? Particle Beamers and Nebuloscopes. You lose some durability, but ought to thin out those mobs with weak saves very quickly.

changemod wrote:
Tomb Blades have three equal cost upgrades, so you can price them for two upgrades and just play 'em as best suited for different foes without any prior thought into shifting the list around.

Against Eldar, Tau and Vehicle Spam? Nebuloscopes and Shield Vanes. Gauss, ignores cover pierces 4+ and denies jink to skimmers.

Against Marines? Shield Vanes and Particle Beamers. AP4 ignores cover is useless against 3+ armour, but massed S6 templates should force failed saves.

Hordes? Particle Beamers and Nebuloscopes. You lose some durability, but ought to thin out those mobs with weak saves very quickly.

groups of 5 TB is optimal, so 5 of one weapon loadout and 5 of another weapon load is a good plan.

Because of the changes made to the Spyders and you can produce Spyders whenever you want during the phase :

Scarab Hive: Once per friendly Movement phase, each Canoptek Spyder can use this special rule to create Canoptek Scarabs. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Canoptek Scarabs that is within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder. Add a single Canoptek Scarab base to the unit – this can take the unit beyond its starting size, but must be placed within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder. If a model cannot be placed for any reason, it is destroyed. Canoptek Scarabs created in this manner can move and act normally this turn.


So anyone let me know if this is unclear.

Sorry for the typos I wrote it really quick, yes I know there are misspellings but the Photoshop doesn't have a spell check and my computer crashes for whatever reason if I use Photoshop for to long so I worked fast.









It should say Closest Scarab not Spyder. Sorry for the confusion. I uploaded the incorrect one


So yeah by placing them and using the movement rules and movement of the Spyders you can most certainly add more scarabs way outside your deployment zone as long as you move one squad first and start the chain going.

You can then move the whole Scarab squad forward and be able to charge your opponent on the first turn.

Cool I love me spyders. I ran 6 spyder medium farm to great success in the past. Looks like I will need 4 more for this tactic.

Is that confusing? I am worried it's not clear what's happening.

Hollismason wrote:
Is that confusing? I am worried it's not clear what's happening.

Cheese?

It should put at least 5 to 6 Scarab units with in charge range, once you charge you get another pile in. You can sling shot characters and all kinds of mess into your opponents deployment zone on the first turn.

This can also be used with the Canoptek Harvest Formation, really easily then you'd have 19 Scarabs with Reanimation Protocol Prancing around your opponents army.

Add a Cryptek with Solar Staff and a Cronometron to the mix, keep him at the back of the unit as they all move forward then activate the staff at the beginning of your opponents turn if you didn't get a charge off.

bodazoka wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Is that confusing? I am worried it's not clear what's happening.

Cheese?

Assault cheese is the best cheese.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hollismason wrote:
It should put at least 5 to 6 Scarab units with in charge range, once you charge you get another pile in. You can sling shot characters and all kinds of mess into your opponents deployment zone on the first turn.

This can also be used with the Canoptek Harvest Formation, really easily then you'd have 19 Scarabs with Reanimation Protocol Prancing around your opponents army.

Add a Cryptek with Solar Staff and a Cronometron to the mix, keep him at the back of the unit as they all move forward then activate the staff at the beginning of your opponents turn if you didn't get a charge off.

I'd rather have a D Lord and Orikan in there for their crazay mob buffs.

Hollismason wrote:
It should put at least 5 to 6 Scarab units with in charge range, once you charge you get another pile in. You can sling shot characters and all kinds of mess into your opponents deployment zone on the first turn.

This can also be used with the Canoptek Harvest Formation, really easily then you'd have 19 Scarabs with Reanimation Protocol Prancing around your opponents army.

Add a Cryptek with Solar Staff and a Cronometron to the mix, keep him at the back of the unit as they all move forward then activate the staff at the beginning of your opponents turn if you didn't get a charge off.

This is a good strategy to lock your characters into assault, however, your characters wont be able to attack until Turn 2 at the earliest. They still have to cover alot of ground with 3" pile ins. If you dont get a good charge roll, then the characters will lag behind.

Yep scarab farm is real again and may be the most reliable first turn charge mechanic. Something else that should be noted:

MOA. Infiltrate the Spyders. You can do 3 squads and chain up the scarabs to move up. Best case scenario, you could probably get a 6-8 inch charge, even with decently conservative deployment by your opponent because all three Spyder squads could infiltrate. Mathematically, you could infiltrate 18" away from the enemy and get a scarab 12" from the deployment zone before the scarabs move (even with only two Spyder squads). Then the charge becomes a game of "how far back my opponent deploys is how long my charge range is". Especially in Dawn of War deployment, first turn charge will be a real thing because the back of their deployment zone is 12" from the front, meaning it's near impossible not to have a potential charge

With 4 Spyders you can have your scarabs 24" outside your deployment zone. That a 36" threat range.

Attach a D- Lord to the unit then just issue a Challenge that will absolutely move you forward unless they decline.

The max range you can get on poopin out Scarabs is gonna be 12 inces away from the front of your deployment zone, so at least 1 Scarab with be on the deployment line of your opponent on turn 1.

Now that Scarabs can hurt well anything , that's pretty amazing.

Also there is no restriction for CC, so you can just multi charge, then run your spyders forward and move again on the first turn. You should still be in range of the lag behinds from the Scarab squad to keep adding more.

You don't need 3 units of Spyders either 2 units of 3 and a 7th from the Harvest is all you need to get the Scarabs in there are on the first turn.

Give the Spyders particle beamers and only go with a 6 man Scarab squad from the Harvest , then 6 Spyders, spyders are not schlumps in CC.

Hollismason wrote:
Attach a D- Lord to the unit then just issue a Challenge that will absolutely move you forward unless they decline.

The max range you can get on poopin out Scarabs is gonna be 12 inces away from the front of your deployment zone, so at least 1 Scarab with be on the deployment line of your opponent on turn 1.

Now that Scarabs can hurt well anything , that's pretty amazing.

Also there is no restriction for CC, so you can just multi charge, then run your spyders forward and move again on the first turn. You should still be in range of the lag behinds from the Scarab squad to keep adding more.

You don't need 3 units of Spyders either 2 units of 5 and a 7th from the Harvest is all you need to get the Scarabs in there are on the first turn.

max unit size of Spyders is 3

It was a mistype that I correct thanks.

Fragile wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
It should put at least 5 to 6 Scarab units with in charge range, once you charge you get another pile in. You can sling shot characters and all kinds of mess into your opponents deployment zone on the first turn.

This can also be used with the Canoptek Harvest Formation, really easily then you'd have 19 Scarabs with Reanimation Protocol Prancing around your opponents army.

Add a Cryptek with Solar Staff and a Cronometron to the mix, keep him at the back of the unit as they all move forward then activate the staff at the beginning of your opponents turn if you didn't get a charge off.

This is a good strategy to lock your characters into assault, however, your characters wont be able to attack until Turn 2 at the earliest. They still have to cover alot of ground with 3" pile ins. If you dont get a good charge roll, then the characters will lag behind.

It should be noted that sometimes you want your IC getting there on turn 2, like when you charge an IK and you want to stay clear of turn 1 Stomps.