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I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.

It is good to hear that even a friend of someone in the company admits that their fiend can't stick to a deal. What that is the likable guy, it says a lot about the company.

 CptJake wrote:
I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.

Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept.
You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production.
Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.

If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.

Crowdfunded projects are not retail sales, you have the same rights but should avoid making the same expectations. In return you get a cheap buy in.

No one will retail sell you 6x4 modular pre-painted boards for £60, you are buying the 'I am paying pre-production and must accept the stock purchased hasn't been made yet'. All too often reality gets in the way. I think you will get your boards, but stamping little feet and saying I want I want wont make production and distribution problems disappear. Sales are part of the magical world of online promises, production is part of reality. It doesn't take fraud or cheating for delays to stack, reality will do that.

So pay £60 for boards tomorrow, or £150 for boards today. You chose the cheap option, as did I. Accept the consequences with good grace and wait for your items.

I have just under £500 currently invested in Kickstarter and Lanzanos, all in gaming and I have no delivery date I can hold to for any of my projects and frankly I dont ask. All are with fairly decent companies, and all are formally delayed except Dungeon Saga, and eventual delays for that are expected because its Mantic. But I am not worried, I am in for some nice stuff and believe I will get it; and no I am not rich, the buy ins tied up most of my gaming funding for the last two years,

 CptJake wrote:

It is good to hear that even a friend of someone in the company admits that their fiend can't stick to a deal. What that is the likable guy, it says a lot about the company.

Sam is a unique case, and I would call him a friend per se, just someone I know personally. Though I do admit to liking him. He also thankfully isnt in control of G&G.
I have dealt with Sam in the past, and he honoured his deals, but it was a bit of work to get there.
My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.

 Orlanth wrote:
Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept.
You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production.
Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.

If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.

Crowdfunded projects are not retail sales, you have the same rights but should avoid making the same expectations. In return you get a cheap buy in.

As I've commented on a couple of projects, it's funny how OGRE being a year late used to be an extreme, something mocked and even scorned.

Now a couple years later it's the status quo and people are unrealistic/needy/entitled/etc for thinking otherwise.

If it's such common knowledge that production is difficult and full of delays, why is it on the backers to be doormats and accept that 'every' Kickstarter is massively delayed through acts of Dog that couldn't have been foreseen with modern technology?

As I've also expressed, I see it as a percentage based approach; need an extra 10/20% of ones time? No big deal. 300%? Looks like someone forgot to carry the one. A project like this that has an estimate of 5-6 months taking nearly a year and a half is a bit more than a mere 'oops', and while it's not a bad thing for the KS community to show patience and understanding, it doesn't do us any favours to quietly accept that projects will just deliver whenever they deliver.

So instead of mocking people who believed in the project/company, perhaps the companies (here and elsewhere) should start tacking a year onto their delivery estimates? Because apparently nobody on Earth is capable of estimating how long something takes to make.

Except Dwarven Forge. Those guys are 2 for 2 on delivering on time with multi-million dollar projects.

Anyway, I'm not a backer (though I nearly was), but I find it counterproductive to tell backers 'oh you should've known that their business plan was full of gak', somehow absolving the people who actually made the business plan in question.

While we're at it, let's glance at the KS campaign page!

Risks and challenges

We delivered our last project on time and have won awards from miniature painting competitions. We honored all our kickstarter backers. We have been quoted to have the best customer after service in the industry and we are dedicated to you who make our projects a reality. If not for everyone this project will not happen!

Delays will occur by: Act of God, Armageddon and forces beyond our control. Manufacturing delays can happen if there are any teething issues with the moulds. However we have negated most of this by spending one year in making these and insuring we have got everything ready and down to the wire to mitigate any issues. We are ready once funded to hit the mass production button. Any delays if at all will be down to customs in your home country and your local postal service based on our past kickstarter experience.

If there are delays during different waves it will be up to 10-20 days max based on past experience and again mainly due to customs. But this issue should be a non issue as we have a great forwarder and will deliver the goods to you.

Situations change.

But if someone is going to make reassurances of "10 to 20 days max", they'd better be able to back that up. Not being able to is on them, not the backers.

Creators need to embrace the variance, to estimate their target delivery date and then double it. They don't get to reassure the backers how confident and prepared and ready they are while the money is flowing in and then fall back to "omg this stuff is hard and taking so long and who could have possibly known?!"

That's bullgak.

 Orlanth wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.

Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept.
You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production.
Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.

If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.

Most people can accept that,but I've said it before and I'll say it again. No one should be willing to accept gak from any company, even if it is on KS. Stuff being a little late, fine. Life happens. But lying about it is beyond the pale. I'm not willing to accept that just letting them get away with constant lies is the productive thing to do here.
Also, this Sam sounds like an unreliable clownshoe. Perhaps he wasn't the best person to involve in a KS project with a (supposedly) defined timeline.

I also wish they would SHUT UP about the damn flood!

Why is the onus on backers to accept the "harsh realities" of kickstarter and not on the creators who put up nonsense pie in the sky based on wishes and dreams timelines in the first place?

Well, super duper lateness aside, we do have confirmations of boards arriving, so it is not vaporware at this point at least.

If someone is fed up and got a 28mm Hawk Urban board, and wants to sell it for their pledge, let me know!

 Orlanth wrote:
It doesn't help that I know Sam from G&G personally, and while he is a fun likeable guy getting him to stick to a deal is like playing Twister with eels.
If you want any meaningful results bypass him and ask to speak to the owner.

That's hilarious, I kind of felt the same way talking to him - really nice, but I just could not pin him down even though I talked to him with the express intent of doing so!

I thought he was the owner, though?

Not vapourware but neither is it base painted. Roads are painted, the rest is bare grey plastic. Another untruth to add to the pile.

 Orlanth wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.

Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept.
You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production.
Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.

If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.

Crowdfunded projects are not retail sales, you have the same rights but should avoid making the same expectations. In return you get a cheap buy in.

No one will retail sell you 6x4 modular pre-painted boards for £60, you are buying the 'I am paying pre-production and must accept the stock purchased hasn't been made yet'. All too often reality gets in the way. I think you will get your boards, but stamping little feet and saying I want I want wont make production and distribution problems disappear. Sales are part of the magical world of online promises, production is part of reality. It doesn't take fraud or cheating for delays to stack, reality will do that.

So pay £60 for boards tomorrow, or £150 for boards today. You chose the cheap option, as did I. Accept the consequences with good grace and wait for your items.

I have just under £500 currently invested in Kickstarter and Lanzanos, all in gaming and I have no delivery date I can hold to for any of my projects and frankly I dont ask. All are with fairly decent companies, and all are formally delayed except Dungeon Saga, and eventual delays for that are expected because its Mantic. But I am not worried, I am in for some nice stuff and believe I will get it; and no I am not rich, the buy ins tied up most of my gaming funding for the last two years,

 CptJake wrote:

It is good to hear that even a friend of someone in the company admits that their fiend can't stick to a deal. What that is the likable guy, it says a lot about the company.

Sam is a unique case, and I would call him a friend per se, just someone I know personally. Though I do admit to liking him. He also thankfully isnt in control of G&G.
I have dealt with Sam in the past, and he honoured his deals, but it was a bit of work to get there.
My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.

The problem is not just that the project is late.

The problem is that they, the company as a whole, not just your friend, are LYING TO THEIR SUPPORTERS!

That is about as plain as I can make it.

They are one step (admittedly a large step) above Ice Age Mammals at this point, with nothing that they have said coming close to truth

I do believe that they intend to fulfill the pledges.

I do not believe that they are deliberately cheating or defrauding their patrons.

I do believe that they are lying through their teeth because it is expedient, rather than letting their patrons know some unpleasant truths.

The Auld Grump

In fairness Games & Gears have failed to learn the basixc truth about dealing with Chinese manufacturers.

The quick version of that advice is: dont.

A longer version is: set up and sign the deal, but take production schedules with a large bag of salt, and don't expect to get exactly what you paid for.

FanPro made th Battletech 25th Anniversary via chinese manufacturers, rther eventual product was just about ready for the 27tyh anniversary and had substandard plastic components, though asmittedly cheap.

Rackham went under as a business because they relied in Chionese made prepainted miniatures. People blacm e the shift of rules and other factors for the company's death, what really killed them was that Chinese manufacturers decided when Rackham could have stock, not Rackham. Rackham needed to sell boxsets to customers, Chinese manufactuers only cared about getting paid and delivering x thousand boxes, eventually, when they got around to it.

Only the largest companies and those who outcourse limited projects are safe dealing with China. So in th toy industry Disney gets its stuff on time every time, because its a massive contract and noone wants to mess with it. As does Games Workshop for different reasons. For all GW's ineptitude they know how, and when, to deal with China, say what they want, buy in quantities the Chinese wont mess with and are very specific about quality and timing.
PSC are smaller yet but do well because they work via Hong Kong and use the UK - Hong Kong connexion and have permanent offices there and thus get what they want when they need it by keeping comms clear and constantly open.

However....

So many crowdfunded projects rely on Chinese manufacturing the drive down costs, and on paper its a shortcut to profit. However there is a big BUT attached to that.

Backers are interested in the deal they signed up for, me included, and many expect to get it all to the letter, my excluded. Small companies importing custom goods from China so regularly have problems, some are ripped off by the manufacturers.

Games & ears l;ikely paid for tamping (plastic press printing) in multiple colours, and the manufacturer just decided to skip a few steps because they can get away with it. Ship the half painted goods and itsG&G's problem.

Should G&G come clean. Its too easy to just say yes. Backers have high expectations, many of them frankly unreasonable regarding the sourcing, but don't give any sdlack. Had G&G admitted that backers wont get exactly what they were promised they would get a lot of nerdrage rather than a little.
If G&G shouldered the blame they will end up with a crap rep. If G&G tried to blame the manufacturers the manufacturers will lose face. Anyone who knows anything about dealing with Chinese (or Indian) business knows that is a bad position if you want to do any further business.

So expect delays, expect G&G to look at half painted boards and start thinking about what to do. See them send weekly notifications with painting guides, as they did last week, a big hint frankly.

G&G shouldn't outsource manufacturing like this to China. Vietnam is a much better partner if you want the job done properly, but Vietnam all too often cant match the Chinese price, and for some stuff cant do the work at all or in the same timeframe due to lack of investment on the same scale.

I don't think G&G have lied to anyone, though all bets are off with Sam Sedghi.
What they have done is got into hot water and tried damage control long enough to fix the problem as best they can.

I also believe G&G intend to fulfill the pledges

I do not believe that they are deliberately cheating or defrauding their patrons.

I do not believe that they are lying through their teeth, they are omitting facts because it is damaging to reveal the true cost of dealing with the Dragon. They are also not in any way in control of their delivery schedule, due to manufacturers whims, shipping company whims and finally UK and EU customs whims.

When dealing with crowdfunding projects look at what you are buying, make sure it is stupid cheap or manufactured in the West by an experienced company. Then expect a measure of failure and be happy when the degree of failure doesnt exceed your discount.

 Orlanth wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I'm not sure anyone paid for 'uncertainty and delay'. I would bet the feel they paid for the boards with an understanding they would be delivered a bit later than the KS estimate, but not that they would be lied to repeatedly and that the delays would stack up the way they have.

Thats the harsh reality of kickstarter some refuse to accept.
You are buying not only pre-order but at pre-production.
Any form of manufacturing has procedures and those procedures very often have unseen problems.
If you cant accept that stay away. The majority of projects are late, especially where large scale manufacturing is involved.
Crowdfunded projects are not retail sales, you have the same rights but should avoid making the same expectations. In return you get a cheap buy in.

Well, it's good to know that being a Kickstarter makes it okay to endlessly bs your backers/supporters. I think you might have a little too much Stockholm Syndrome/Kool-Aid given the way you're choosing to defend their fraudulent and dishonest behaviour.

My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.

Name and contact details please?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orlanth wrote:

Should G&G come clean. Its too easy to just say yes. Backers have high expectations, many of them frankly unreasonable regarding the sourcing, but don't give any sdlack. Had G&G admitted that backers wont get exactly what they were promised they would get a lot of nerdrage rather than a little.
If G&G shouldered the blame they will end up with a crap rep. If G&G tried to blame the manufacturers the manufacturers will lose face. Anyone who knows anything about dealing with Chinese (or Indian) business knows that is a bad position if you want to do any further business.

Their rep (such as it was) is pretty much gone. Their word is worth nothing, and their product will be half-baked and sub-par quality. SWM will eat their lunch if G&G ever makes it to retail.

I don't think G&G have lied to anyone, though all bets are off with Sam Sedghi.
What they have done is got into hot water and tried damage control long enough to fix the problem as best they can.

I do not believe that they are lying through their teeth, they are omitting facts because it is damaging to reveal the true cost of dealing with the Dragon. They are also not in any way in control of their delivery schedule, due to manufacturers whims, shipping company whims and finally UK and EU customs whims.

They lie every update, in every KS comment they make, and have done so for a year.

If I tell you I've done the job you asked for and your product is in the post and none of this has happened, that's lying. It's not "damage control". It's flat-out directly lying to you. It's not spin or DC at this level, it's simply lying.

 Azazelx wrote:

Well, it's good to know that being a Kickstarter makes it okay to endlessly bs your backers/supporters. I think you might have a little too much Stockholm Syndrome/Kool-Aid given the way you're choosing to defend their fraudulent and dishonest behaviour.

All I have done is seen the same pictures as you and decided NOT to nerdrage.

 Azazelx wrote:

My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.

Name and contact details please?

Sorry I dont know that. I know that Sam's partner Rae founded the company as a vessel for selling art tools. However Rae has other business partners, and this info is very old. I have been out of direct contact with Sam Sedghi for coming up to ten years now, and don't know Rae.

 Azazelx wrote:

Their rep (such as it was) is pretty much gone. Their word is worth nothing, and their product will be half-baked and sub-par quality. SWM will eat their lunch if G&G ever makes it to retail.

Ok, your angry I can see that.
First it isnt my fault.
Second I am in for two 6x4 so I am in the same position as you.
Not overly worried though.

I think it will hit retail. G&G are desperate to sell their boards retail as they offered everyone cheap pie in the KS and need to recover costs properly. They also know they cant retail until they have delivered to backers at least on an item by item basis.
I strongly suspect G&G underestimated their delivery costing, and had normal China syndrome and regret free shipping promises. Manufacturing was paid for, initial shipping was paid for on paper, but not with hard regards to hard reality.
They are also trying ship by cheapest means and that mean they are well down on the delivery priorities at every port and delivery hub.
We know the stock exists and is on its way. G&G cant do express delivery on the budget they got.
I do believe they need other spokespersons than Sam, and indeed they do from what I hear. If this project was just run by Sam Sedghi I wouldn't have bought in.
Hawk Urban boards are a good lead for retail sales and should sell well at £140 from stock. Once they stock them, G&G's sales problems will disappear.

Do we know that the stock exists in the necessary quantities?

One thing to bear in mind is that there is a difference between telling their patrons that a product will be late and telling them comforting lies.

The comforting lies constitute deliberate fraud.

I do not think that G&G is going to default on the product - but I do believe that they have been lying for the sake of expediency, rather than being honest with the folks that have supported their projects.

At this time, if G&G told me that the sun was going to rise in the east, I would look to the west to greet the dawn. (Though, more likely, G&G would tell me that the sun would rise at 11PM, then been delayed until midnight....)

You may like this Sam - but what he is doing is lying, plain and simple.

The Auld Grump

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Do we know that the stock exists in the necessary quantities?

we saw thr stock pictures.

Its a desperate stretch to claim that when G&G have x hundred orders of a particular board type they buy in less than that.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

One thing to bear in mind is that there is a difference between telling their patrons that a product will be late and telling them comforting lies.

The comforting lies constitute deliberate fraud.

Well, are they comforting lies?
where is the evidence they have deliberately lied.

It would not be the first time a manufacturer promises delivery on one date and ends up being late.
G&G gave revised estimates along the way, and took the delivery dates they were given a little too literally. Thats was unwise and a common consequence of buying from China.
Deliberate fraud is a stretch.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

I do not think that G&G is going to default on the product - but I do believe that they have been lying for the sake of expediency, rather than being honest with the folks that have supported their projects.

Evidence please.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

At this time, if G&G told me that the sun was going to rise in the east, I would look to the west to greet the dawn. (Though, more likely, G&G would tell me that the sun would rise at 11PM, then been delayed until midnight....)

Agaijn its all about delays. Companies much bigger than G&G have had ridiculous delays regarding stock from China. I gave some examples earlier.
Battletech 25th Anniversary
AT-43
both effectively destroyed by tardy delivery and switching goalposts from manufacturers.

Rackham and Catalyst Game Labs are not liars.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

You may like this Sam - but what he is doing is lying, plain and simple.

Sam didnt lie to me, he was evasive in other ways, and had I not been very persistent he would have been able to worm his way out of a deal.
I didnt let him do that. You see I knew him and how to handle him, we made a good deal from both ends and my eyes were open wider than he thought. I honoured my part and then made damn sure he honoured his, it came a bit of a shock to him.
I dont hate Sam, he is not a friend, but is likeable enough and we are friendly when we meet, though he is a bit wary of me now.

However AFAIK Sam is not in charge of G&G, he is just a very bad choice for PR. I can understand if him answering the phone and making promises is not helping the company. I have no problems believing that at all.

I still think that Sam aside G&G are getting the boards they paid for and will try and get them out to us. Deliberate fraud? On balance I beleive it is a lack of awareness of the consequences of Chinese outsourcing.

Was it Sam who made a nuisance of himself in the early days of the secret weapon boards campaign?
If so, tell him thanks, that person convinced me G&G were a company I would not support and as a result saved me quite the wait.

Joyboozer wrote:
Was it Sam who made a nuisance of himself in the early days of the secret weapon boards campaign?
If so, tell him thanks, that person convinced me G&G were a company I would not support and as a result saved me quite the wait.

I dont know about this, tell me more.

Secret Weapon boards were selling very well at Salute.

 Orlanth wrote:
In fairness Games & Gears have failed to learn the basixc truth about dealing with Chinese manufacturers.

The quick version of that advice is: dont.

A longer version is: set up and sign the deal, but take production schedules with a large bag of salt, and don't expect to get exactly what you paid for.

FanPro made th Battletech 25th Anniversary via chinese manufacturers, rther eventual product was just about ready for the 27tyh anniversary and had substandard plastic components, though asmittedly cheap.

Rackham went under as a business because they relied in Chionese made prepainted miniatures. People blacm e the shift of rules and other factors for the company's death, what really killed them was that Chinese manufacturers decided when Rackham could have stock, not Rackham. Rackham needed to sell boxsets to customers, Chinese manufactuers only cared about getting paid and delivering x thousand boxes, eventually, when they got around to it.

Only the largest companies and those who outcourse limited projects are safe dealing with China. So in th toy industry Disney gets its stuff on time every time, because its a massive contract and noone wants to mess with it. As does Games Workshop for different reasons. For all GW's ineptitude they know how, and when, to deal with China, say what they want, buy in quantities the Chinese wont mess with and are very specific about quality and timing.
PSC are smaller yet but do well because they work via Hong Kong and use the UK - Hong Kong connexion and have permanent offices there and thus get what they want when they need it by keeping comms clear and constantly open.

Not a large company. I deal with China. The taiwanese and the HK people have been dealing with China for ages. I know several EU companies that aren't large but 4-5 stores that buy directly from china. Just because you have some hard-on against Chinese manufacturers doesn't mean they're all bad. (although yes, there are some very bad ones)

My clips just arrived from... Germany. So if they aren't lying what happened with all those posts about testing every clip on the boards they have in their UK warehouse? I mean just look at the December 19th update, 'Hawk Urban War battle boards, clips and trays, have arrive to the UK (EU backers) Warehouse.' So I'm expected to believe they decided to send all the clips to Germany in order to then post them back to the UK? As others have said delays are expected with kickstarter, not that those should be excused either, but outright lying to your backers is disgusting.

IIRC they told us they would be sending the clips to us direct from China and the ones in the UK warehouse would be used to fulfil the retail orders. That doesn't explain why the clips are arriving from Germany.

My clips arrived today - if G&G stick to the latest time lines they sent to me via PM the board could be here in as little as 2 weeks.

With everything that has happened so far I will not be holding my breath.

A bunch of Ozzies have recieved their boards. As others have reported they are not base painted.

Oh and 2 of the guys only got 5 out of the 6 boards...

Are there pics posted of the boards folks are finally actually getting?

 warboss wrote:
Are there pics posted of the boards folks are finally actually getting?

Only ones so far are the ones I posted a link to few days ago, but it got buried by the should we expect failure from KS arguments.

Here

Specifically scroll down to the 22nd April pics

Thanks. That pretty much looks like two paint steps were applied (black roads and then white road markings).

 Orlanth wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.

Name and contact details please?

Sorry I dont know that. I know that Sam's partner Rae founded the company as a vessel for selling art tools. However Rae has other business partners, and this info is very old. I have been out of direct contact with Sam Sedghi for coming up to ten years now, and don't know Rae.

So... your "advice" is pretty much a collection of meaningless words and almost on a par with trolling - not real advice for something that backers will actually be able to access since the KS reps aren't about to give you or us the contact details for their bosses,
Well done.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:


My advice remains, deal with some else higher up the chain if you want any promises you can rely on.

Name and contact details please?

Sorry I dont know that. I know that Sam's partner Rae founded the company as a vessel for selling art tools. However Rae has other business partners, and this info is very old. I have been out of direct contact with Sam Sedghi for coming up to ten years now, and don't know Rae.

So... your "advice" is pretty much a collection of meaningless words and almost on a par with trolling - not real advice for something that backers will actually be able to access since the KS reps aren't about to give you or us the contact details for their bosses,
Well done.

Don't get upset with me please. I don't work for G&G.
All I said was that I don't trust Sam Sedghi and would talk to someone else with regards to business. Fair advice given for fair reason.
I didn't say I knew who ran the company, who else you could talk to, or what car they drive, theior phone number ortheir favourite food. I don't know those things, and it is not my responsibility to find them out for you.
You could try asking to speak to someone else, if/when that doesn't work at least the alarm bells should be ringing correctly if nothing else.

Advice remains: deal with someone else if you can. This is echoed by a large number of gamers in my home town, some of whom are still angry at Sam for a variety of reasons, but all stemming from his frequent disregard for honest business. In fact since his name has reentered circulation because of G&G I heard more than a few angry words from surprising sources. He stung more people than I had realised, but their stories are not for me to say.

Some people have spoken to 'Alice' I don't know a thing about her, but as she is not-Sam Sedghi perhaps you should start there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Maccwar wrote:
IIRC they told us they would be sending the clips to us direct from China and the ones in the UK warehouse would be used to fulfil the retail orders. That doesn't explain why the clips are arriving from Germany.

My clips arrived today - if G&G stick to the latest time lines they sent to me via PM the board could be here in as little as 2 weeks.

With everything that has happened so far I will not be holding my breath.

Shipping from Germany makes sense.
Hamburg is a major shipping hub, if the clips came in a container that got off at Hamburg, they could be distributed straight from there.
One of the kickstarters running at the moment has preselected a number of hubs to ship from, there is a flat rate from the factory in China to be hub, then local shipping from the hub. The EU hub was Germany.
Makes sense, Germans are an organised bunch and have a well deserved rep for running stuff like this very efficiently, it's their way.

Ignore this post - I was misinformed.

I don't think it works that way. It's still one company and if he petitioned them to remove stuff due to the recent court ruling then they're supposed to remove the old/outdated (supposedly) information not just remove it from the EU.

Google does not remove the information, merely the links to the information (within the EU),

so somebody outside the EU using Google.com should still see any such links

however just because the statement is there does not mean results have been adjusted as Google says

'When you search for a name, you may see a notice that says that results may have been modified in accordance with data protection law in Europe. We’re showing this notice in Europe when a user searches for most names, not just pages that have been affected by a removal'

 Orlanth wrote:

Don't get upset with me please. I don't work for G&G.
All I said was that I don't trust Sam Sedghi and would talk to someone else with regards to business. Fair advice given for fair reason.
I didn't say I knew who ran the company, who else you could talk to, or what car they drive, theior phone number ortheir favourite food. I don't know those things, and it is not my responsibility to find them out for you.
You could try asking to speak to someone else, if/when that doesn't work at least the alarm bells should be ringing correctly if nothing else.

Advice remains: deal with someone else if you can. This is echoed by a large number of gamers in my home town, some of whom are still angry at Sam for a variety of reasons, but all stemming from his frequent disregard for honest business. In fact since his name has reentered circulation because of G&G I heard more than a few angry words from surprising sources. He stung more people than I had realised, but their stories are not for me to say.

Some people have spoken to 'Alice' I don't know a thing about her, but as she is not-Sam Sedghi perhaps you should start there.

That's not my angry face, nor tone. It's the /facepalm one. I should point out that I haven't been angry at all in my posts to you here either. You've recently been aggressively defensive on their behalf to what I'd call an ...unusual and odd-feeling degree though, and that's not going to engender endearment. We're not the ones repeatedly lying to our backers, after all.

As for Sam, I don't know Sam Sedghi nor have I interacted him in any way to the best of my knowledge. I'd never even heard the name until you started mentioning it. I have conversed with Alice, and while she is pleasant enough, she essentially seems so be a CSR, and so there's little to no chance that she'll give up her bosses' names.


Your advice wasn't "speak to someone else if you can". It was this:

 Orlanth wrote:
It arrives when it arrives.

You pay for cheapness with uncertainty and delay, keep that in mind and the delays aren't a problem.

I am in for two board sets, I will get them someday soon. Combining to G&G wont speed that up, in fact it will likely slow things down.

It doesn't help that I know Sam from G&G personally, and while he is a fun likeable guy getting him to stick to a deal is like playing Twister with eels.
If you want any meaningful results bypass him and ask to speak to the owner.

Now of course, on being challenged you're basically admitting that there's no realistic way to do that, and changing it from "Talk to the owner." to "talk to Alice. Or anyone but Sam." Which is not even remotely the same thing.
So, you know. If you're going to get on an aggressively defensive high horse, please refrain from suggesting unrealistic options that obviously aren't on the table, because it only makes you look foolish, not the rest of us.


And I'm still not angry. I'm actually kinda amused. Will typical "internet rules" (Never apologise, nor admit wrongdoing, nor admit that you were wrong or incorrect, ever) apply here?

 Azazelx wrote:

And I'm still not angry. I'm actually kinda amused. Will typical "internet rules" (Never apologise, nor admit wrongdoing, nor admit that you were wrong or incorrect, ever) apply here?

None of the above, I just don't like friendly, well meaning and politely spoken advice to be referred to as 'trolling'.

 Azazelx wrote:

So... your "advice" is pretty much a collection of meaningless words and almost on a par with trolling - not real advice for something that backers will actually be able to access since the KS reps aren't about to give you or us the contact details for their bosses,
Well done.

I was surprised by the above frankly, it was not a nice thing to say, and unwarranted. So I vocally assumed you were venting anger at me, that at least is only a passing lapse and the least uncharitable reason for the above post.