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Perhaps GW should change the rule to "use the correct base(s) given in the modeling kit for the correct model(s), in the correct gaming system", and personaly if someone tried to use square bases as an advantage against me, i'd take my bases and melt them to be 4 times their actual size saying "i'm using the correct base given to me..." so as far as it goes, I would say to keep your square bases to yourself!!!

Also if I might add, 3rd edition was, is, and will never be like 5th edition in terms of game play, models, rules, or BASES!!! As it is almost a compleatly different game, with different rules. So if you wan't to play with circle & square bases go back to 3rd edition!!!

(No offence intended, it just makes me mad when people perposfuly use loop holes in 40k to make my weekends bad, or use selective modeling for their benifit, then come up with stipid excuses to why its legal. Other than that I don't care if someone uses squre bases, as long as they dont pivot, or try and pull a cheap one on me.)

Bah, even in WHFB GW is bad about specifying which base each particular unit is supposed to use. For instance, if you're just starting out with an army you can buy a box of troops, look inside and see 25mm square bases inside and not honestly know whether you got a mispack or not. Because Infantry models can be either 20mm or 25mm and some characters can be 40mm or 50mm and still be Infantry.

I think 7th edition had a chart showing official base sizes, but it didn't get maintained very well at all.



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Brood Lord, I believe the proper rule would be "If your opponent is younger than your models, they're not allowed to complain about the bases."

One issue I see from this thread and some people's thoughts/opinions is that of models supplied with more than one base. I am not referring to Necron Warriors/Scarab Swarms either. A prime example of this is St. Celestine. She comes with (at least mine did) both a 25mm circle base and a 40mm circle base. Now which one is the "correct" one? Both provide advantages and disadvantages and unlike the issue with Demons, both could be said to be "intended" for 40k. I personally would have no problem with her on either base as she was supplied with both and it is up to the owner to how they decide to base her. I have my own based on the 40mm as I plan to add a little bit more scenery to her base and I think it makes her stand out more in my SoB army than if she were on the "standard" 25mm circle. Just as with Demons on square bases they were supplied with, I do not feel that I need any permission from an opponent to field my model with the base it was supplied with as per the rules on page 3 of the BRB already quoted earlier. No one has ever refused to play me because my St. Celestine is on a 40mm base as that is one of the bases she comes with. I am somewhat surprised that this thread has gone on as long as it has, but such is the case with YMDC on the many rules issues that the game we all enjoy ever so much has. Merry Christmas Eve for those that it is important for.

Or those models should be "on display" rather than in an actual game in the 21st century, rather than annoying me.


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Evil Lamp, honistly im sure no one cares about your "unique" sisters of battle base size, since its the only one in the game that comes with both 25mm, and 40mm bases, at least on a round base, and either way no you don't have to have your opponents permision, but of course theirs always the fact that that player, and anyone runing a tournament can refuse to play (or have you play) if you start using it to your advantage.

Oh and now that I remember it, termaguants come with a 40mm base, I wonder how your template weapons would like hitting only 2 of 30 termagaunts?

Termagants don't come with a 40mm base.

At least none of the ones I have bought had 40mm bases.

GW standard termagaunts pack comes with 12 termagaunts, and 1 ripper swarm, however it does not specify which base(s) to use, as rippers are on 40mm bases, and the kit comes with 12 25mm, and 1 40mm base, it may be obvious that the large base is for the ripper swarm, however it is also quite obvious that daemons are suposed to use the round 25mm bases provided in their pack for 40k, and not the square ones.

Any way their is a very simple solution to using them both fantasy & 40k, MAGNETS, just put a washer or bit of metal on both square and circle bases, and then put a magnet on the actual models! Whala! You should have no exuse on why they are not on the right base.

Except they ARE on the right base. AS the rules allow for.

You can argue differently, but you are not at that point arguing from a rules position but from a personal preference.

All it would take is a single page entry in the rulebook on bases.

A chart showing base sizes AND SHAPE.

Infantry - 25mm ROUND base.
Heavy Infantry - 40mm ROUND base.
Small walkers/Monstrous Creatures - 60mm ROUND base.
etc.

But no, they assume that everyone will use nothing but round bases for 40k just because. Assumption fail.

Noobs to the hobby will do whatever they like unless told otherwise.
Veterans with legacy models will retain them on their original bases because the rules TELL them to (must be on the bases they were supplied with)

There isnt an assumption there at all - they want you to use the model on its base. Nothing more or less.

It's very simple, and means noone can complain that you should be re-basing your old 25mm based terminators, or your old jet bikes on hexagonal models, and so on.

It has the effect that you can choose to base some daemon models on either square or circular bases. But regardless of the choice you make your choice IS legal and there is no ambiguity to be had.

With this logic, my 60 termagaunt swarm will be practically invinsable!!! LOL!!! Oh, and might I remind you that those old models are technically not legal (or so i have been told) due to the fact that the different editions are in fact rule wise, and model wise different games (otherwise you'd all be crying when I brought genestealer cult leman russes backed up by 4th edition tyranid allies), so again I might as well take somthing from lets say... Axis and Allies board game or Monopoly, and use them for IG right? And honestly, can sombody actualy quote the rule book on the rules for bases?

Just remember alot of this game revolves around common sense, so if you for some reason don't like common sense, maybe you should play 3rd editon 40k back when the game was filled with all these loop holes.

There is nothing that invalidates old models, as long as they are still present in the codex. So as long as your GS Cult LR exist in the nid codex - sure, bring them.

The ONLY rules on models are: they must be citadel miniatures, and must be based if they came with one.

If you'd read the previous 5 pages, the rules for bases have been covered a number of times. Theyre also in one handy section, about 3 paragraphs long.

Oh, just for fun, I'd fight a deamon army on square bases if the player would let me use an inquisiotor scale army, "supplyed with the bases given in the kit".

I dont particularly see a problem with that.

Like I've been for most of this thread, I am generally bemused by the vehemence with which some posters are against square base usage, despite the precedent in 40k. It simply is far more of a hindrance to the daemon player than it can ever be of benefit.

"Common sense" requires that you should rebase your old hexagonal jet bikes, yet the actual rules tell you otherwise.

I'm tempted to build an inquisitor scale army just to mess with fantasy deamon armys now...

Why does it mess with them? You;ve yet to actually explain why it would have any effect on the player at all.

You also do realise the person can simply refuse to play you, right?

However, without common sense you'd be able to interpret the rules any way you like, and their would be no point to playing this game.


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alot of effects go off of the models size and distance from it's base, their for giving the player an unfair advantage in a game where close calls are all to common, where, it may seem silly but where a 4th of an inch desides who won or if somone gets into an assault, and in a tournament where somone loses because somone decided they wanted to use their old Rough Trader mini or use square bases to get that extra little bit of movement, somone can feel very cheated.

Brood Lord wrote: And honestly, can sombody actualy quote the rule book on the rules for bases?

yet again: quoted exactly from page 3 of BRB.

BASES
Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game.

Some players like to mount their models on impressive scenic bases. As mounting your models on different bases might affect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this.

so by this, i have an illegal CSM Dreadnought seeing as he came with no base whatsoever. i mounted him on a 60mm base b/c i got tired of a 6 pound chunk of metal tipping over on the table.
also, it says use what it came with, which has been stated many, many times. it does not say "must use square or round."
nowhere does it say i can't use a model from the 1990's either.

so, NO, i would not mind playing against demons on square bases in a game of 40k since they are absolutely legal, just not what the majority would do. if my opponent has to use the extra 1/8th of an inch from the corner of his base to win, then i need to be a better player

If square bases are creating such a an awesome advantage in 40k why isn't everyone buying up old ugly-ass dreadnoughts and carnifexes and taking square-based armies to win all the big tournaments?

try finding those old models for sale, they are far and few between, trust me, ive tried (the old carnafex is awsome, i'm gana buy one and put it on a 60mm base).


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"As mounting your models on different bases might affect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this." Guess what, I mind. Ill say this, would any of you like to fight 60 termagaunts on 40mm bases? Because I'll fight daemons on square bases all day if I can use 40mm bases for my termagaunts, I'll just spread all over the board and drop spore mines like crazy, good luck geting those square bases on the board.

if i see 11 25mm bases for every 1 40mm base then fine, as that's what comes in the box according to GW.

Page 3 of the 40k rulebook wrote:BASES
Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game.

Some players like to mount their models on impressive scenic bases. As mounting your models on different bases might affect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:There isnt an assumption there at all - they want you to use the model on its base. Nothing more or less.

Okay, I've been happy to agree that the rules support using squares, but now you're taking it a bit far, I think.

There is an assumption. You ARE making an inference. The rule says the model is supplied with "a plastic base", singular. The rule simply says nothing whatsoever about models supplied with two different bases. It does not forbid choosing one, but it certainly does not explicitly state that you can choose between multiple different options, either. This is a place where you are inferring that you are meant and allowed to make a choice, when multiple options are presented. Pretty much everyone agrees that it is legal to use the square ones for 40k, but we also acknowledge that this is clearly intended as an accomodation for older models, and possibly also to make use of daemon models across both systems easier.

I repeat, once again, for the folks who don't bother to read the thread: It is legal, and acceptable, for you to use the square bases. But it is not ideal.

When dealing with most armies, the game difference is pretty darn small. If you're careful with your measurements, you can avoid gaining distance from pivoting; it can happen inadvertently, and you have to consciously look out for it (which itself is an annoyance to me), but most folks probably don't care as much as I do. When dealing with a whole Daemon army, OTOH, it can add up. It can gain a Codex: Chaos Daemons player a couple of significant advantages, and thus be looked at as shady or modeling for advantage.

The biggest issue is with units of daemons getting a smaller footprint when Deep Striking, which reduces the chance of mishap.

A unit of (e.g.) 7 Juggernauts mounted on round bases Deep Strikes into a complete circle approximately 6 inches across at its narrowest points, and 8 inches across at its widest. Realistically, to land safely, they need approximately 5"-6" from the center of the first placed model in every direction. 7 Juggers on 50mm squares, OTOH, can make a formation of six squares in a 2x4 rectangle, with one more square off one of the long sides. This is basically an "L" with a fat vertical limb. The vertical is 100mm x 300mm. Or approximately 2" x 6", with an additional 2" x 2" square where the daemon player chooses. To land safely, this formation only needs about 4" clearance in any direction from its center point, and only ~2" or so in 2 of the 8 suqares surrounding the center square; the two which the daemon player chooses to leave empty.

This is a significant difference in space required on landing, and thus a significant reduction in the danger of mishap. Juggers are the biggest example, having a 10mm difference in size between the round and square bases, in addition to the shape advantage, but very similar math holds throughout the codex. 9 daemons on square bases fit into a 3" x 3" box. Only 7 daemons fit into the same space if mounted on round bases. If you mount them on squares, and put them into base contact using the corners as you land, you measurable and noticeably reduce the footprint of your units, measureably and noticeably reducing your chance of mishap.

BuFFo wrote:The rules allow for square bases in 40k, so refusing to play a person who fields square bases would be the same as refusing a player for playing by any other rule, for example moving a unit 6" or firing a bolter 24".

I'm sure you're a nice guy, Buffo, but this is just rude, as was your first post in the thread.

First off, the Poll did not ask "is it legal". Nor did it ask "will you refuse to play". It asked "would you MIND" playing against an entire daemon army mounted on squares in 40k. If you HAD read the thread, you'd notice that no one (or practically no one) in it said they'd refuse to play against an army on squares. So you're really making a strawman argument here, which is insulting to everyone here who's participating honestly and in good faith.

This thread was not about legality, though one or two folks argued that a bit, it was a side issue.

The thread and the poll asked about preference. That preference could be purely aesthetic, thinking squares don't look as good (which certainly some people feel), or it could be due to having sufficient awareness of geometry or play experience with the game to realize that a daemon army derives an actual, concrete game advantage by using square bases, and some people not feeling that's really the intent of the designerrs.

Seriously this is getting childish. Just out of curiosity out of all the square base haters how many of you actually play tournaments, and how many tourneys have you won. Also how many fully painted and based armies do you own and how many times have you won best painted at any tournaments. I only ask because the arguments I have seen for the most part have been childish and rather ridiculous. I am honestly curious at the level of gaming and modeling the na sayers are at, because over all it doesn't seem like many of you have a clue about the game or how it plays competitively. I guess this is the main reason I take offense to this thread is because I work very hard on my armies and 85% of the time I have to play against gray plastic flavor of the month or count as primed armies. I play DoC in WFB and Space Wolves and DoC in 40k, and have received nothing but praise for them even though they are all on square bases. For those of you saying GW should make some sort of faq saying 40k requires round bases, well they won't because both are legal and they intended it that way for a cross game army deal with it.

What do you think is childish?

What do you think is the good of referring to anyone as a "square base hater"? Do you think it helps your argument?

I honestly can't remember all the tournaments and leagues I've won over the last eleven years. Somewhere in the neighborhood of three or four dozen, maybe? I have won a couple of Best Painted and Best Army awards, though I'm not a top-level painter by any means. I have two fully painted and based WH armies (Wood Elves and Chaos Warriors), two and a half (my Dark Angels and Fallen Angels share a bunch of models) fully painted and based 40k armies (Eldar, Dark Angels and Fallen Angels), with my Dark Eldar Harlequin army recently assembled and partially painted.

Do those accomplishments somehow make me more qualified to have an opinion? I think that anyone has the right to share their opinion, if they do it politely, no matter what their gaming accomplishments are.

I know it sucks to hear anyone say that they don't like your army being on square bases. It sucks to say it to someone, when you KNOW how much work they put into it, and you often are SURE they didn't mean to do it to gain an unfair advantage. No one wants to rain on someone's parade and make them feel bad about their army.

You can probably go your whole gaming career leaving them as they are and be okay. But hopefully this thread is useful to you, and helps you see WHY some people might not like it, and that that doesn't make them a bad person or a jerk, and how they might dislike it without thinking you're a bad person or a jerk.

Brood Lord wrote:try finding those old models for sale, they are far and few between, trust me, ive tried (the old carnafex is awsome, i'm gana buy one and put it on a 60mm base).


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"As mounting your models on different bases might affect the way they interact with the rules, make sure before the game that your opponent does not mind this." Guess what, I mind. Ill say this, would any of you like to fight 60 termagaunts on 40mm bases? Because I'll fight daemons on square bases all day if I can use 40mm bases for my termagaunts, I'll just spread all over the board and drop spore mines like crazy, good luck geting those square bases on the board.

I'll fight them. I reckon my Termagants on illegal standard 25mm round bases will enable my unit to form a very dense block which will give me a good advantage in melee. I'll get better than three to one odds, with careful placement.

Every arguement ive seen stating that square bases give extra distance, assumes that you measure form the center of the base. every person i have EVER played with measures either from the leading edge, or from an obvious protrusion of the model, like a Nobz powerklaw. when measuring a square base from the leading edge of the base, if one starts from a flat side, and rotates the model in transit so that the new leading edge is a corner, than that corner cannot pass the mark for the edge of the move.

Brood Lord - except I am NOT mounting my models on bases other than those supplied. Both square and round are supplied, and I am required to base on either of those.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Additionally - put your termagaunts on 40mm, as long as only 1 in 12 is on a 40mm, as that is what is supplied

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:Every arguement ive seen stating that square bases give extra distance, assumes that you measure form the center of the base.

That's not what I wrote at all. The only reference I made to measuring from the center was talking about Deep Strike formations, and how much clearance they need in any given direction.

Big Mek Dattrukk wrote:every person i have EVER played with measures either from the leading edge, or from an obvious protrusion of the model, like a Nobz powerklaw. when measuring a square base from the leading edge of the base, if one starts from a flat side, and rotates the model in transit so that the new leading edge is a corner, than that corner cannot pass the mark for the edge of the move.

If you're this careful as you measure, there's no problem. I've SEEN it happen where a model is measured closest point to closest point and then pivoted, or pivoted in transit. If you complain you look like a nit-picker, but these little distance differences can matter in a game. I actually had it happen in the final game (top table) of a tournament once, where one of MY square-based lesser daemons was within 3" of an objective if I rotated the base to point the corner at it, and not in 3" if I didn't. Made the difference bewtween a Win (and winning the tournament) and a Draw. That sucked.

Mannahnin wrote:What do you think is childish?

What do you think is the good of referring to anyone as a "square base hater"? Do you think it helps your argument?

I honestly can't remember all the tournaments and leagues I've won over the last eleven years. Somewhere in the neighborhood of three or four dozen, maybe? I have won a couple of Best Painted and Best Army awards, though I'm not a top-level painter by any means. I have two fully painted and based WH armies (Wood Elves and Chaos Warriors), two and a half (my Dark Angels and Fallen Angels share a bunch of models) fully painted and based 40k armies (Eldar, Dark Angels and Fallen Angels), with my Dark Eldar Harlequin army recently assembled and partially painted.

Do those accomplishments somehow make me more qualified to have an opinion? I think that anyone has the right to share their opinion, if they do it politely, no matter what their gaming accomplishments are.

I know it sucks to hear anyone say that they don't like your army being on square bases. It sucks to say it to someone, when you KNOW how much work they put into it, and you often are SURE they didn't mean to do it to gain an unfair advantage. No one wants to rain on someone's parade and make them feel bad about their army.

You can probably go your whole gaming career leaving them as they are and be okay. But hopefully this thread is useful to you, and helps you see WHY some people might not like it, and that that doesn't make them a bad person or a jerk, and how they might dislike it without thinking you're a bad person or a jerk.

I think it has become childish because people seem to be just spouting off at this point. The only thing that has been proven here is some people have been cheated by someone using square bases, and they act like it is only people with square bases sneaking extra movement.

I think it makes you more qualified because it lets me know that you are a serious player and serious about your hobby. But at the end of the day I play right, I don't cheat, and someone seeing my army on square bases jumping straight to the conclusion that I am going to cheat would make my a little agitated. Lucky this has never happened, and I seriously doubt it ever will since I have been around our 3 state area many times with no complaints.

If you see someone breaking the rules then say something, don't just go OMGWTFBBQ square bases so he can cheat. It simply is not the case. You see someone pivot to gain movement say "Hey dude you can not do that you are moving your model to far." It's just that simple I have had to do it to many a player on round bases when they hold their tape a foot over their model while moving and gain an extra inch. I personally have never understood the desire to cheat in a game of plastic army men. Yea sometimes the prizes are cool, but wow I feel sorry for people that do it.


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Mannahnin wrote:If you're this careful as you measure, there's no problem. I've SEEN it happen where a model is measured closest point to closest point and then pivoted, or pivoted in transit. If you complain you look like a nit-picker, but these little distance differences can matter in a game. I actually had it happen in the final game (top table) of a tournament once, where one of MY square-based lesser daemons was within 3" of an objective if I rotated the base to point the corner at it, and not in 3" if I didn't. Made the difference bewtween a Win (and winning the tournament) and a Draw. That sucked.

Again here you are talking about someone cheating, it's not the bases fault when someone is cheating. This thread should be about how people cheat in 40K I bet there are more instances of people cheating with their whole army on round bases. Also if you don't exceed your movement you can have the model pointing any way you like and you gain nothing. If you moved your model 6" you still would be short no matter how you rotated the model. I still personally find the best way to measure is from the closest corner straight towards what you are going for.

Sol, please do me the favor of taking my remarks in context and reading the whole thread.

I have repeatedly and frequently asserted that it's legal to use the square bases.

What I have denied is that this is necessarily GW's intent, or that it has no impact on the game. I believe I've offered some reasonably solid evidence as to the latter.

Again, I am not calling square-basers cheaters or bad people. I am posting from the perspective of someone who has myself based daemon models on squares for cross-compatibility, and later discovered drawbacks and reasons it was a less-than-ideal solution, and is trying to spare others the same headaches. I have a couple dozen old metal Daemonettes which are in need of re-basing, which I haven't gotten around to yet. Meanwhile I've been using some old metal Bloodletters and new plastic Deamonettes & Bloodletters on round bases, even though they're not painted as well as some of my sweet old Daemonettes.

The question of GW's intent is invalid at this point because they have not come out with a full fledged announcement of requiring round over square bases.

The truth is, it would have been a marketing disaster to do this; because so many current customers of the company HAVE square based armies from yester-year. Those are loyal consumers who STILL purchase from GW; to tell them their army is no longer legal and they must now fork over MORE money to rebase their ENTIRE army would be suicidal!


Now, they could have the long term plan of just letting stocks of square based 40k kits run dry and new kits be replaced with round bases until in 10 years everyone's using round bases and those older armies either belong to people who no longer play, or have so many NEW armies they RARELY play said armies making the square base a moot point.

But even if it was their intent to completely RID the 40k universe of square bases and say they were no longer legal in play, why does NEW gaming material from them still have square bases both included with kits AND illustrated in the rule books and codecies?

Because its not a rule to have either or, only to have the one supplied.


@ SOL it has been PROVEN that it is NOT illegal to play the game with square bases! As there is NO rule against them or calling for ROUND bases ONLY in the rule book. There are also MANY references in the BRB to models on square bases being fine as there are many illustrations shown of games in progress with them in use.

I think its more childish that its still going on that we would deny people the ability to play because their model is supplied with a square base rather than a round base, when there are no rules against a square base being in play.