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Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

[citation needed]

I play Orks. I have the fourth edition codex right next to me. I can take a picture of my Bad Moon army if you want proof. I don't like this new codex for a number of reason. Most of all I don't like that our troop chioces were not only cut in half (and I bet the next codex will still have FOC manipulation, I'd put money on it), but the boys, the heart of the army, have become irrelevant. And now we're just another army with a pointless troop selection that needs to spam HQs and heavy\elite to remain competitive.

But hey, you like it, and I have nothing against that. But you don't get to say who's opinion is or isn't valid

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

[citation needed]

I play Orks. I have the fourth edition codex right next to me. I can take a picture of my Bad Moon army if you want proof. I don't like this new codex for a number of reason. Most of all I don't like that our troop chioces were not only cut in half (and I bet the next codex will still have FOC manipulation, I'd put money on it), but the boys, the heart of the army, have become irrelevant. And now we're just another army with a pointless troop selection that needs to spam HQs and heavy\elite to remain competitive.

But hey, you like it, and I have nothing against that. But you don't get to say who's opinion is or isn't valid

irrelevant ? Not sure how you are playing your orks, but my boyz are the star players of my army. Have you actually played with your orks ? I find it hard to believe that some one who has played, now find boyz pointless.

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

I play orks and I have many problems with the new codex based on my experience. If you're going to pretend to be part of some silent majority, evidence is required.

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

I play orks and I have many problems with the new codex based on my experience. If you're going to pretend to be part of some silent majority, evidence is required.

Ok what in game issues have you had ? You say you play orks and have experience with them. Give us evidence from games you have played that the codex has issues.

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
irrelevant ? Not sure how you are playing your orks, but my boyz are the star players of my army. Have you actually played with your orks ? I find it hard to believe that some one who has played, now find boyz pointless.

I play my orks as someone who has a LOT of shoota boyz. My games often had (I'm still not sure if I want to continue playing the tabletop game) 60+ shoota boyz, and certainly slugga boyz are still as useful now as they were in 6th (which was not at all. If anything they're worse due to the two main transports getting nerfed and footslogging a slugga mob is suicide). But perhaps irrelevant is not thr right word, so much as they're redundant. Grots is particular did not get any better, and camping back objectives now can be better left to either lootas or mek gun units. And taking objectives in the enemy's deployment is better left to warbikers, one of the few units that got universally better and wasn't hit by the either the KFF nerf or majorly affected by the new Mob Rule. I'd certainly like to ask some other people if they feel like they take ork boyz because they have to rather than they want to.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
irrelevant ? Not sure how you are playing your orks, but my boyz are the star players of my army. Have you actually played with your orks ? I find it hard to believe that some one who has played, now find boyz pointless.

I play my orks as someone who has a LOT of shoota boyz. My games often had (I'm still not sure if I want to continue playing the tabletop game) 60+ shoota boyz, and certainly slugga boyz are still as useful now as they were in 6th (which was not at all. If anything they're worse due to the two main transports getting nerfed and footslogging a slugga mob is suicide). But perhaps irrelevant is not thr right word, so much as they're redundant. Grots is particular did not get any better, and camping back objectives now can be better left to either lootas or mek gun units. And taking objectives in the enemy's deployment is better left to warbikers, one of the few units that got universally better and wasn't hit by the either the KFF nerf or majorly affected by the new Mob Rule. I'd certainly like to ask some other people if they feel like they take ork boyz because they have to rather than they want to.

I still enjoy my Boyz. The thing with Boyz is, we have so many. We have threat saturation. The thing people often forget is Boyz, at a glance, do not seem like much. But if left to their own devices, they will wreck just about ANYTHING on the charge, unless it's a very high armored target. And then, thats what the Nob/Klaw/Warboss is for. It's true, our Transport of choice is not as good as before, but it's still a useful tool. It just forces us to do what we do best. Spam, Spam, Eggs, Bacon and Spam. More Trukks means more time they have to waste trying to pop them off before they get too close to unload their payload of fire suppressing Boyz.

I feel our biggest loss was the 5+ cover for all UNITS it touched with the KFF. It's overall BETTER due to being a 5++, but it is only for Models touched, not units. It forces us to be a bit more tactical with it's use. And now it only covers the transport it happens to be embarked on. If anything, it makes our Battle Wagons more survivable, and a much larger threat with it's 20 capacity transport. No one wants 20 or more Boyz in their face turn 2.

But I will agree with others that our HQ slots are highly congested, and we have to do a lot to get enough of them to fill the holes we need. I still wish Painboyz had been slotless HQs with a quantity restriction (similar to Meks). But, that might have been too powerful to have each squad of Boyz with a 5+ FNP.

I play Orks and my army went up in points and became illegal outside of Unbound.

Needless to say, I am not amused.

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I play Orks and my army went up in points and became illegal outside of Unbound.

Needless to say, I am not amused.

Play with the old Codex?

Melevolence wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I play Orks and my army went up in points and became illegal outside of Unbound.

Needless to say, I am not amused.

Play with the old Codex?

play a game that doesn't hate its players?

 MWHistorian wrote:

Melevolence wrote:

 Chumbalaya wrote:
I play Orks and my army went up in points and became illegal outside of Unbound.

Needless to say, I am not amused.

Play with the old Codex?

play a game that doesn't hate its players?

*shrug* If thats how one feels, then nothing is stopping them. I guess I'm fortunate my army was diverse enough that the codex change didn't totally nullify me. I have enough of all the units to make a diverse army, and I still have fun regardless of the changes. I know not everyone has the opportunities to get more models like I have, but *shrug* every game changes. I play Heroclix for my fix on smaller, skirmish games, and even then I have to deal with changes being made. If a power works differently, it ruins the effectiveness of an old character. Granted, that might not be a good example in perspective to 40k, but the fact still remains. If my team was built around that one guy, and an update ruins him...well...time to change it up. Do I flip a table and change games because the company changed things on me? No, I keep playing because I love the game, and change my tactics.

Edit: Also, the GAME doesn't hate the player, the Company does :p Though in all seriousness, I don't think GW hates the players. But I do feel they don't appreciate us enough.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
Here's what I'm seeing: the new codex is pretty well-liked by people who actually PLAY Orks, whereas the people who are angry are theoryhammerers who either don't play Orks or don't play 40K at all. So basically if someone is really coming down on the book, you know their opinion isn't based on any real-world experience and can be safely ignored

[citation needed]

I play Orks. I have the fourth edition codex right next to me. I can take a picture of my Bad Moon army if you want proof. I don't like this new codex for a number of reason. Most of all I don't like that our troop chioces were not only cut in half (and I bet the next codex will still have FOC manipulation, I'd put money on it), but the boys, the heart of the army, have become irrelevant. And now we're just another army with a pointless troop selection that needs to spam HQs and heavy\elite to remain competitive.

But hey, you like it, and I have nothing against that. But you don't get to say who's opinion is or isn't valid

I played two games this weekend, my first two games with the new Ork books. In both games, I ised a Green Tide formation with some extra boyz, flash gitz, lootas, and a few other small units, 2000 pts. Same list for both games. First game, I was against CSM. I won after the end of the first turn when my opponent forfieted, I had 2 VPs from objectives, he had 1. Since it was such a short game, I reset my deployment and offered to play against a Guard army. I lost 16 boyz total during that game, killed most of his units and vehicles by turn 3, and the only unit I lost in its entirety was a grot mob acting as a meat shield. I won with 8vps vs his 5.

The combos are green tide with 2 kffs and a painboy with a big bosspole on the warboss. All shoota boyz. A full unit of lootas on a skyshield and flash gitz in ruins for supporting fire. Stay back and fire 100 shots per turn with the green tide and charge vehicles that get close. Let a nob mob with PKs handle AV 14, put them in a trukk to get them around fast, stick to cover.

There are things people can do to counter this obviously but without tons of large blasts, whittling down mobs of boyz with 5+/5++ is really hard. I only took one mob rule check on a unit of boyz not under the kff and they passed, but had the ability to reroll. Play the new codex right and you'll do well. Stick to your old lists and you probably won't. If you don't want to play the new ways, quit 40K. As they say, "you will not be missed"

Next week I want to run a green tide + council of waaagh, that will be a riot no matter what happens.

 Multimoog wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
If you don't want to play the new ways, quit 40K. As they say, "you will not be missed"

Careful what you wish for. You may find yourself without any opponents one day.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Multimoog wrote:
If you don't want to play the new ways, quit 40K. As they say, "you will not be missed"

Careful what you wish for. You may find yourself without any opponents one day.

Not worried about that - I have a lot of great sports and people who are game for interesting sessions in my local group. Another Ork player and I spent Saturday talking about new strategies and making plans to play against each other to see how our respective builds perform. Nobody in my local meta who's actually looked at and thought about the possibilities with the new book is saying it's terrible. Some common builds from the last edition are going to be middling but that's just plain tough luck, take the opportunity to expand how you play. After a year and a half of fielding the same all-comers list and losing half the time, Orks almost feel like a completely new army! As the OP asks, what do you want?

The problem is that troops just seem to be more of a tax now. To make them worthy you need battlewagonz to keep up with what's good now - bikers, buggies. To make a footslogging army decent, you need painboyz and a warboss. Thus, you HAVE to go unbound if you want to do something cause every darn blob needs a painboss to start functioning.

When you compare boyz and bikers, it's even more disappointing.
'eavy armored sluggaboy costs 10 pts.
warbiker boy costs 18 pts.
For 8 pts he gets: +1 toughness, up to 3+ jink, tl-dakkagun, HOW, immunity to pinning which is huge now. And most importantly he gets awesome speed.

Battlewagon's quite expensive and eats an invaluable HS slot. Truckboyz with s4 explosions and new mob rules...no - they don't work even with 'eavy armor unless the opponent completely ignores the truck. Or if they're footslogging, they need a painboss and preferably a warboss for ld9. But that's 2 damn HQ slots that are better off with bikers.

Thus, i find that boyz are better used as something like 20-25 strong footslogging squads with dedicated objective secured trucks to screen bikes and grab objectives so they can be midfield threats, grab some objectives on the way there and kick face to the enemie's leftovers or go to ground and endure on objectives if your first wave fails before they get there. Which is quite possible either. In this situation you just have a decent semi-tax troops that are quite expensive but not all that disappointing and bring awesome scoring screening rokkittrucks - basically a slotless buggy that has transport capacity just in case.

People say that greentide works but i find that "can't have more than 1 objective with 1 squad" and their awful mobility makes them not that great at actually dealing with stuff. Besides, they can easilly get tarpitted from the flank. Overwatch can be ignored with hiding behind a transport before charging. So, something like a bunch of nurgle spawns will definitely keep your horde locked for a couple of turns. For like 1/7 of it's cost. However, note that i haven't tried greentide (and won't cause i don't have enough boyz and ain't planning on buying more) and my opinion is purely based on my experience with 30-strong footslogging mobz that are allready quite unwieldy and underwhelming vs something fast and shooty or fast, tough and choppy.

On the whole, i think i sounded just too desperate. For me, it's not that bad cause i just have 70 boyz which is actually enough for the tactix i proposed. Probably, max bikers would be better, but i just don't want to throw away 50 boyz and leave 2 min squads. But now i have to get bikers and buggies.

And yep, i wanted boyz to become a bit better. Didn't expect them to get worse, to be honest They'd probably be fine if painboyz were like ig priests/comissars or at least like our own mekboyz. All in all, if they weren't in HQ that'd open vast possibilities for FNP boyz. But as it's now, i'd better avoid having more than 2 squads.

You definitely don't need a painboy in every mob. You just need one or two that can move to wherever mob needs them most at the moment.

 Multimoog wrote:
You definitely don't need a painboy in every mob. You just need one or two that can move to wherever mob needs them most at the moment.

As it goes, from my gaming experience with mobz, every darn squad needs a painboy at every moment I mean just try to go unbound and stick a painboy in every 30-strong mob and feel the difference. They still won't win you games vs tau, eldar and ig but the mobz will at least last longer and you likely won't get tabled! Probably, won't work vs ig with viverns but will definitely help vs tau and eldar.

Read my earlier post. He didn't have any wyverns but he had (iirc) 5 tanks, most of which had front av 14, like a hellhound. They did nothing to my green tide, as it had both a painboy and kff support. I was able to charge and wreck the hellhound, as he outflanked it next to my tide mob. He was hoping to take out a big chunk of it with the hellhound but he got maybe three boyz at best before I wrecked it.

If you're positioning your mobs correctly you can fit four of them in the bubble of 2 kffs, and put painboyz in the front two mobz. Then have the rest of them behind those front two who are getting covered from the front. If you are attacked from behind you can move the painboyz back to protect those units. If your mobz ARE hit from behind, it will likely be in turn 2 or 3 - at that point you will be in waagh range of whatever the front lines were going to hit so you can safely split off the kffs to help cover what is coming at you from the rear.

TACTICS!