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 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, "more but better" is an option, and so is "less but worse", neither are what we have in our hands here.

Is it OPTIMAL? no. nobody even claims that. is it DECENT? yes, and that's the point we are making.
Its ok. its pretty good even, could be better, could be a hell lot worse.

An improvement over the older codex. enough of an improvement? that's is a whole other question, but the "anti" camp claim that it is worse, when it is in fact a step up. small, but up.

When said improvement is basically a couple point adjustments that could have been contained in a 1 page FAQ it is nowhere near enough to be called decent, let alone an improvement. 1 page of balance tweaks and a lot of removed content for a higher price.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd actually say with confidence that this codex is the codex I wanted/hoped the 5th edition codex was going to be. Inquisition crap cut out(and that stuff was crap) and just an update to the dated rules.

I've just had to wait 2 editions and a codex to get it.

"The Grey Knights act as the military arm or Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Daemonhunters who form the oldest branch of the virtually omnipotent Inquisition."

The inquisition was totally out of place there hey? And at half the pages of the space marine codex, they just totally bloated the thing.

 Yonan wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, "more but better" is an option, and so is "less but worse", neither are what we have in our hands here.

Is it OPTIMAL? no. nobody even claims that. is it DECENT? yes, and that's the point we are making.
Its ok. its pretty good even, could be better, could be a hell lot worse.

An improvement over the older codex. enough of an improvement? that's is a whole other question, but the "anti" camp claim that it is worse, when it is in fact a step up. small, but up.

When said improvement is basically a couple point adjustments that could have been contained in a 1 page FAQ it is nowhere near enough to be called decent, let alone an improvement. 1 page of balance tweaks and a lot of removed content for a higher price.

Yeah, this is the part I really don't get. It seems (to me at least) that most of the changes for the book are minimal-> re-tinkering of unit costs and such. $50 seems like a hefty price for something that could have been given as a 2-page addendum.

 Yonan wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, "more but better" is an option, and so is "less but worse", neither are what we have in our hands here.

Is it OPTIMAL? no. nobody even claims that. is it DECENT? yes, and that's the point we are making.
Its ok. its pretty good even, could be better, could be a hell lot worse.

An improvement over the older codex. enough of an improvement? that's is a whole other question, but the "anti" camp claim that it is worse, when it is in fact a step up. small, but up.

When said improvement is basically a couple point adjustments that could have been contained in a 1 page FAQ it is nowhere near enough to be called decent, let alone an improvement. 1 page of balance tweaks and a lot of removed content for a higher price.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I'd actually say with confidence that this codex is the codex I wanted/hoped the 5th edition codex was going to be. Inquisition crap cut out(and that stuff was crap) and just an update to the dated rules.

I've just had to wait 2 editions and a codex to get it.

"The Grey Knights act as the military arm or Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, the Daemonhunters who form the oldest branch of the virtually omnipotent Inquisition."

The inquisition was totally out of place there hey? And at half the pages of the space marine codex, they just totally bloated the thing.

Yes they could have done that, but it still would have been "Codex: Inquisition, with Grey Knights included." to Codex: Grey Knights.
Now Grey Knights have their own Codex after 20+ Years!
And it is a good one, a little thin on Units, but it is finally Codex: Grey Knight, that is was we were wanting for 3 Decades. This might also be why most of us love our new Codex.

While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.

Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

How come multiple people keep quoting half of a message, then answering it by something I specifically talked about in the second half without even referring to it is beyond me.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

Yes it should tell "us" that you need to get out more. Lol.


The GK dex should've been $15 dollars instead of $50. That way I won't feel like a chump if I ever decide to buy it (and the Inquisition dex and the Assassins dex which I would also need).

 Envihon wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.

Yes, I have even thought of giving it my Space Wolf Synergy treatment when I am done with my Space Wolves.

 Envihon wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.

But what about all those apathetic folks who are posting? Oh wait, apathetic folks don't really post due to their apathy. Can we say response bias? We could if we wanted to attempt to have even a smidgen of objectivity, but that wouldn't be fun, would it? Nah.

Anyway, I look forward to 6 years from now when Codex: Grey Knight: Draigo drops, consisting only of Draigo. People are gonna love that one model codex for $90 dollars, because Draigo will be so badass in it.

 Envihon wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.

I'm doing both, want me to take my wine to that thread as well? I'm also in another thread on how to make the two under performing units in the codex SS and Purgs a more desirable choice, compared to the other units in their slots. This codex has done many things, and people are going to disagree in the direction where it went. GK players will either as I mention suck it up and play the good units they have, because undoubtedly they do have them, or shelve their army to go with another faction that offers more versatility at a lower point cost.

The codex as it stands is overpriced for what players were given originally, less content for more moolah? But it's up to the individual player if its worth the price.

EDIT: Also correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Space Wolf release was CONSIDERABLY better, more models, kept the same units everything was more or less still viable with that new flyer taking the spotlight.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

You must have missed all the other threads where people were complaining about all the complaints about grey knights. Also you're complaining about us not making off topic comments... really?

Super Newb wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.

But what about all those apathetic folks who are posting? Oh wait, apathetic folks don't really post due to their apathy. Can we say response bias? We could if we wanted to attempt to have even a smidgen of objectivity, but that wouldn't be fun, would it? Nah.

Anyway, I look forward to 6 years from now when Codex: Grey Knight: Draigo drops, consisting only of Draigo. People are gonna love that one model codex for $90 dollars, because Draigo will be so badass in it.

No because it will probably be another 20 years and $150. [Sorry I had to get that out]
I think that was a little over-dramatic and absurd.

The new Codex gave us exactly what it promised, Grey Knight and only Grey Knight.
>$50 Price Tag: " No we did not enjoy it, but those of who saw the writing on the wall just sucked it up and moved on. Once the Codex came out we were happy with the product, complained for a day or two and moved on to the new play style.
>The Loss of Material: We lost the Inquisition, those who played Pure Grey Knights have truly not noticed other than there are less units to passed.
Power Level: Our now "Fluffy" Armies are now "Competitive", but not Over Powered.
Mixed Inquisition/Grey Knights Players: We have sympathy, but that can only go so far. I am a Guard Player and I lost big Characters that were the core of my army. Our local Nid and Ork Players lost Characters and units, but they complained for a little bit and then moved on and created new list and adjusted there armies.
It is not the end of the world though.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yonan wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

You must have missed all the other threads where people were complaining about all the complaints about grey knights. Also you're complaining about us not making off topic comments... really?

No it was more of an observation and I think it was on topic.
I have been trying to take the positive side of the argument.

Ahh k gotcha my bad.

 Yonan wrote:
Ahh k gotcha my bad.

No problem.

Quickjager wrote:

 Envihon wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the only place that there is people complaining about the Codex and it is a thread dedicated to complaining about the new Codex.

That should tell us something.

Yeah, over in the Tactics Discussion, most GK players are excitedly talking about all the new things they have done with their GKs using the new Codex.

I'm doing both, want me to take my wine to that thread as well? I'm also in another thread on how to make the two under performing units in the codex SS and Purgs a more desirable choice, compared to the other units in their slots. This codex has done many things, and people are going to disagree in the direction where it went. GK players will either as I mention suck it up and play the good units they have, because undoubtedly they do have them, or shelve their army to go with another faction that offers more versatility at a lower point cost.

The codex as it stands is overpriced for what players were given originally, less content for more moolah? But it's up to the individual player if its worth the price.

EDIT: Also correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Space Wolf release was CONSIDERABLY better, more models, kept the same units everything was more or less still viable with that new flyer taking the spotlight.

You see, people complaining about "overpriced codices" is a bit much, mostly because the GW is shifting from paperback to hardbound books which do cost more to produce so we will see an increase no matter what to off set the cost of making the hardbound book, there is no getting away from that unless people are saying that they are not wanting the hardbound books which is another complaint entirely. Again, I like them, the keep better and are made better than the paperback. Regular use tends to get the paperbacks beat up after awhile.

Also, GW wasn't promising anything like new models or anything like that because in terms of an update, GK wasn't that far behind seeing as they were updated at the end of 5th right before 6th came out. This was a quick release to update the GK fully into 7th since they had to do with one of the major changes in 7th regarding the Psychic Phase and the fact that they lost their codex powers in favor of getting their discipline that only they can cast with any regularity and less risk. This wasn't a full update and GW never said it would be, if they did, I could see a lot of these complaints being more valid. They smoothed out the wrinkles that faced the codex since it came out late in 5th and then the rapid change from 6th to 7th. GW did what they said they did and it is a good product that I am satisfied with. It gave me what I wanted and unexpectedly since no one knew about this release until it happened. This wasn't a restructuring or a major overhaul that was needed to bring the army in line with the rest of the game like the SW, just a short jump from 5th to 7th to bring everything into a neat and tidy umbrella.

How was there no major restructuring done, if coteaz and henchman and assasins and psychic pilot were removed from the books. That is as if sudddenly all IG started to be build around ogryns and saying nothing has changed for the IG.

Also the production cost of hardbound books is not that high for them to cost as much , and let us not forget that before to play GK you needed 1 codex now you need multiple ones to get access to drop pods or gravstar.

Makumba wrote:
How was there no major restructuring done, if coteaz and henchman and assasins and psychic pilot were removed from the books. That is as if sudddenly all IG started to be build around ogryns and saying nothing has changed for the IG.

Also the production cost of hardbound books is not that high for them to cost as much , and let us not forget that before to play GK you needed 1 codex now you need multiple ones to get access to drop pods or gravstar.

keep in mind it's not JUST hardcover books, but it's also Full colour so yes that does bump the price up. I imagien GW's likely trying to increase their profit margins at the same time though. as for weather or not they should have gone hard cover, it's possiable GW felt they had no choice. a lot of the big gaming companies out there are now producting their rule books in hard cover/full colour format.

and the Ogryn comparison is a poor one. because it's "codex: Imperial guard" not "codex: Ogryns" removing cortez and his henchmen is fine to me, because I bought codex: grey knights. not Codex: Cortez.

 Yonan wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.

How are you running non-coteaz inquisitors, using the 5th ed book, without GK? Please let us know where this mythical troop-less Foc can be found. Or accept what you just said was another untruth.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.

How are you running non-coteaz inquisitors, using the 5th ed book, without GK? Please let us know where this mythical troop-less Foc can be found. Or accept what you just said was another untruth.

When did the amount of models become the barometer for how much a codex costed? What about the amount of fluff or other areas that are expaned? GK may not have the Inquisition still with it but the fluff section has gotten bigger and despite having less units than the Eldar codex, it is still thicker than the Eldar codex so it has more content than the Eldar. So yes, less units but more content in terms of other areas in the codex as they distinguish the GK as a force onto their own that the Inquisition sometimes uses. It makes the GK feel like the independent faction like they actually are with their own traditions and uses. The Inquisitorial Codex does the same thing for the Inquisition and fills you in more about what that faction is all about. So why is the amount of units such an importance?

Since people buy codexes for gameplay content not a black library novel.

It's funny because grey knights have probably as many or less playable units than the horrible Nid release. They just don't have as much crap. Codex is still extremely linear and shouldn't be sold as a full price codex.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.

How are you running non-coteaz inquisitors, using the 5th ed book, without GK? Please let us know where this mythical troop-less Foc can be found. Or accept what you just said was another untruth.

Don't worry about them nos. They very same people tried to convince me how much of a terrible cashgrab the ork codex was and how it was gutted of options. Once the next release comes around, they'll disappear from all the GK threads as well.

Can I have Mordrak and Thawn back?
Can I also have the option for running an inquisitor/ inquisitorial things without having to pay for a separate book?
Can I take an assassin that isn't a vindicare (when I feel like swapping a strike squad out), without having to buy a separate book?

I think as a 'pure' grey knight player I've lost out. First I'm paying more for the book (hooray things I never really ran got a buff), lost the building blocks of my army (Mordrak, Thawn and psybolt ammo), lost access too the things I might want to try to add variety (inquisitors/ henchmen/ assassins), oh wait... I can BUY a separate book to re-include them. This is okay, it makes my smaller codex and it's even smaller DLCs worth it.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Super Newb wrote:

Anyway, I look forward to 6 years from now when Codex: Grey Knight: Draigo drops, consisting only of Draigo. People are gonna love that one model codex for $90 dollars, because Draigo will be so badass in it.

No because it will probably be another 20 years and $150. [Sorry I had to get that out]
I think that was a little over-dramatic and absurd.

Of course it is absurd. The position of "less but better" in response to the new book lacking value due to lacking so many units and characters from the past book is absurd so I took it to its logically absurd conclusion. I am glad you agree with me that the "less but better" argument is *terrible*.

The apologists here seem to ignore how bad of a value this new book is. It is far less options, for more money. It's really quite comical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
keep in mind it's not JUST hardcover books, but it's also Full colour so yes that does bump the price up. I imagien GW's likely trying to increase their profit margins at the same time though.

Have you been to a bookstore? Ever? Take a gander at how many color hardcover books are priced at $15 - $20 US. There's tons of them. $50 for a codex with half the options of the last codex is absurd to the extreme even with the hardcover.

OP: And yet, after the first few cries of "there's nothing left!" before the book was released, I've not really read any whine about it. Personally, I quite like the new book.

It was little effort to get the new codex out of the old one.
Just a week for some editing. Not very inspiring.

EVERY argument is silly when you stretch it out to the extreme on the sole purpose of making it silly.
The mere fact you felt the need to do so demonstrates just how much you lack an actual point behind your complaints, and require to make strawman fallacies in order to even be able to respond.


In any case, for those of you that say you pay for the codex for its rules content alone.
Seriously, you guys have no business buying a codex, ever. no matter how vast or impressive it might be.
If all you care about is the rules, they are on the internet, for free, just get battlescribe or the likes.
Why would you even NEED a codex for just a rules section?

 Jidmah wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Yonan wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
While technically part of the Ordo malleus, the GKs operate largely independent of Inquisitors.

Its just that an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor can have a direct line to the GKs if things get out of hand. But rarely are their forces operating in tandem.

You will notice that very few of the engagements mentioned in any of the GK codices show Inquisitors and GKs together. Most Imperial forces operating with GKs are ones already in the combat zone. Less likely to be Inquisition.

Also notice that GKs aren't forced to include Inquisitors in their army, or Inquisitors forced to include GKs. It worked perfectly fine with both in the one codex. The only thing gained in this new codex was a page of tweaks that could have been done with inquisition still included. There was certainly no discount applied for removing something that is now sold separately.

How are you running non-coteaz inquisitors, using the 5th ed book, without GK? Please let us know where this mythical troop-less Foc can be found. Or accept what you just said was another untruth.

Don't worry about them nos. They very same people tried to convince me how much of a terrible cashgrab the ork codex was and how it was gutted of options. Once the next release comes around, they'll disappear from all the GK threads as well.

I just would like them to correct at least one blatant untruth. I know the arguments they make have been adequately rebuffed, and they'll likely go quiet again on this point , but it's worth highlighting the lies.

I'm still amazed at how many "have quit 40k" posters still post here. I thought they'd moved on.

 BoomWolf wrote:
EVERY argument is silly when you stretch it out to the extreme on the sole purpose of making it silly.
The mere fact you felt the need to do so demonstrates just how much you lack an actual point behind your complaints, and require to make strawman fallacies in order to even be able to respond.

Aw how cute, someone who knows the word strawman but then strangely does not know of the valid tactic of taking an opponent's argument to its logical conclusion to show how bad the argument is. One day, when you are older and wiser, you will learn. Instead of ironically complaining about straw men while also completely mischaracterizing your opponent's argument. Gold star for you lol!

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Can I have Mordrak and Thawn back?
Can I also have the option for running an inquisitor/ inquisitorial things without having to pay for a separate book?
Can I take an assassin that isn't a vindicare (when I feel like swapping a strike squad out), without having to buy a separate book?

I think as a 'pure' grey knight player I've lost out. First I'm paying more for the book (hooray things I never really ran got a buff), lost the building blocks of my army (Mordrak, Thawn and psybolt ammo), lost access too the things I might want to try to add variety (inquisitors/ henchmen/ assassins), oh wait... I can BUY a separate book to re-include them. This is okay, it makes my smaller codex and it's even smaller DLCs worth it.

Mordrak's mechanics are still in the game, only now they have been made army wide. Hey, do you want to Alpha Strike your entire army instead of just ONE unit out of the codex? Can't do that in 5th Edition but wait, the new Codex has a way to Alpha Strike everything on Turn 1 as long as it can Deep Strike, so GKSS, Terminators, Paladins, and Nemesis Dreadknights can all Deep Strike Turn 1 with the new Nemesis Strike Force Detachment so that it has expanded to more than just one HQ unit? Oh, and now every single HQ also has access to the exact mechanic that only Mordrak had? So if that was a building block of your entire army, it would seem that this new codex encourages the playstyle that came with Mordrak.

Mordrak was key in my strategy and all my play tests lately, I have been winning because of the Nemesis Strike Force. Terminators are now cheaper so to run a GM, 5 Terminators and Librarian that Deep Strike Turn 1 which was the way to play Mordrak, is still viable and cheaper because unlike the Ghost Knights, I can put a Psycannon on those Terminators. Oh, and the Ghost Knights didn't have access to Psybolts. Your complaint that your "building blocks" have been taken away are unfounded and this codex highly caters to those who liked to Deep Strike and Shunt their armies.