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Hmm, I certainly see where you're coming from, but I do stand by my thoughts that you should be able to use this supplement entirely on its own or only with the free stuff. In the case of Laketown Militia our profile is a little different, having more relevance to the overall list with the rule interaction with the Refugees, and in the case of Gundabad Orcs our profile is also rather different.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

I think having this as a standing supplement is a decent idea, if there was two profiles in the same supplement then I think that would be an issue. If the profile is different then I dont see an issue

I also seem to have missed the gw gundabad orc profile, what book or download is it in ?

Gundabads have rules in DoS book, I think, but they're rather different from the one here.

 Paradigm wrote:
Gundabads have rules in DoS book, I think, but they're rather different from the one here.

the thing i see about that is should they be so different? I dont think they should.

 namiel wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Gundabads have rules in DoS book, I think, but they're rather different from the one here.

the thing i see about that is should they be so different? I dont think they should.

My argument that they should come from the fact that the ones in our supplement have more context within the army list. As far as I know, the Gundabad Orc profile in DoS is both S4 and D5 base, so rolls both the Orc types we have into one, which does the opposite of what I'm trying to do, create an army list that is as varied as possible. Same with the Laketown Militia, ours have an interaction with the Refugees that the other version doesn't, so ours fit better within the army as a whole.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Namiel: had a look at the changes you propose, my thoughts are below:


Thanks for the feedback, feel free to elaborate if I've missed anything

Seeing as it is an unendorsed by GW supplement, there are no real worries about using or editing profiles imo, especially as it lets people use one supplement where everything fits and is balanced against each other and don't have to worry about record keeping as much.

Anyway, here is the promised Battle of Dale map, Thorin's charge to follow shortly...

Fantastic, I'll get that added in! For Thorin's Charge, you could just take a section of the BotFA map and add notes to that, it's the same battlefield, after all!

Cool beans! Yeah good idea, might edit it a bit but will keep the general structure. Off to work i go!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well that was quick! Only 15 minutes and here is the finished map. Using the BotFA one was useful, to say the least! right here it is, the final one unless you want another doing, which I would be more than happy to do!

 Paradigm wrote:

 namiel wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Gundabads have rules in DoS book, I think, but they're rather different from the one here.

the thing i see about that is should they be so different? I dont think they should.

My argument that they should come from the fact that the ones in our supplement have more context within the army list. As far as I know, the Gundabad Orc profile in DoS is both S4 and D5 base, so rolls both the Orc types we have into one, which does the opposite of what I'm trying to do, create an army list that is as varied as possible. Same with the Laketown Militia, ours have an interaction with the Refugees that the other version doesn't, so ours fit better within the army as a whole.

Fair enough. I see your point on making a list that has its own synergy. For me i think the challange is to make a list that synergizes with whats currently out there. Either way what is done is REALLY good. Not taking anything away from that, at all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Namiel: had a look at the changes you propose, my thoughts are below:

Spoiler:

Aside from the replacing profiles as that's being discussed already, my responses to the suggested changes:

Iron Hills Warriors: Wording changes will be done

Kingsguard: The pair of Hand Weapons is just represented as the 2A base and the option for the different Strikes. As there's no explicit rules for 2 Hand Weapons, it's easier to just add it in the profile

IH Captain: will edit wording/options as suggested.

Dain: I'm not sure why the boar should be moved to Wargear rather than options. Other heroes with foot and mounted varieties just have Horse ect as options. fair enough

Laketown: Will edit Refugees' Flee rule, just a typo on my part. I'm not sure Bain's rule is too good, it only affects two guys, one who is mediocre at best and one who has C6 anyway, so it's only a minor buff.

Gundabad Orc: Seeing as Morannons are S4 D5 for 7 points, I don't think Gundabads are undercosted withS4 D4 at 6 points. I didn't give them heavy armour as the Moria Orcs have that already; I want them to function differently. fair enough on the points but the reason i say that the gundabad should have the heavy armor is because in the movie and book that is how they are portrayed. Giving them heavy armor and str 4 with fight 3 and c2 at 7pts makes them comperable to uruk hai at f4 str4 c3 at 8pts

Goblin Merc: it has the same stats as a 5 point Orc, so is 5 pointsgoblins are weak, crappy fighters. having the same stats as an orc makes them no different. let the gobblins be different.

Warg Outriders: They are basically mounted Orc Trackers, so lack the option for Shields and will get dropped to D3 in exchange for a bow base and 4+ shoot.

Olog-Hai: has already undergone a heavy edit, so I'll see what you think of that fair enough

Siege Troll: It does have a Mordor Troll statline (F value has already been fixed), I don't think it should pay for the chance to pay for upgradeswhy would anyone ever take a mordor troll over this then? i see no cons to taking them over mordor trolls

Mountain Troll: The Howdah rules are under the Siege Troll entry, just with a higher cost and capacity here.

War Bats: Different rules and style to Bat Swarms from Moria, so no need to reference those.

War Beast: Great War Beast has had a heavy edit already, I'll see about upping the cost, but for the stats being the same as an unarmoured Goblin, I think it's fair at 4ppm. why take gobblins if these have such better options? i see no cons to taking them over gobblins

Thanks for the feedback, feel free to elaborate if I've missed anything

I left a few notes in red above. What does everyone think?

Putting Gundabads at S4 D5 base and 7ppm is basically making them Morannon Orcs, and also making Moria Orcs pretty much redundant as they are lower S but the same D and only a point cheaper. I appreciate that maybe it would be truer to the film to have them D5 base, but I like the idea of having tougher orcs and stronger orcs, but separate rather than in the same profile as honestly I think Orcs should still be cheap and cheerful troops rather than having multiple 'above average' stats. Having the 2 profiles and the Mordor Orc option gives you the chance to specialise your Orc troops, but each also has positives and drawbacks so you actually need to think about which you'd rather have; greater killing power or greater toughness.

What would you suggest for a 4-point Goblin statline that still has armour (as this is what sets the Goblin Mercs apart)? Seeing as unarmoured Goblin Town Goblins are already 4 points, and +1D shoud mean +1 points, I can't see how you could make them worse and still different from Goblin Town Goblins.

War Trolls: If you weren't using any of the upgrades, a Mordor Troll is just as good and the same price. If I up the price, you've then got the issue that you're paying more for the same base stats, which is a bigger problem in my eyes. But I'm open to a concensus here.

War Beasts are tricky. On one hand, I want the profile to be a 'one size fits all', but I don't want it to be abusable and just run everything as a variation of 'War Beast' tailored to a role. At the same time, if I price it too high for its base stats, then it just becomes useless. I think I've edited it up to 5 points in the last one, not sure what more I can do without going over the line and making them too expensive for what you get. If anyone has ideas on this, I'm all ears.

Captain: Map looks fine, but shouldn't the Evil Deployment go all the way to the centre line, 24" in? I know you've got that marked, but the line seems to be in the wrong place. Not an issue if you don't have time to fix it, as the measurements are all correct, but it would be great if you could.


And once that's done, I think we're ready to rock with V2.0!

 Paradigm wrote:
Putting Gundabads at S4 D5 base and 7ppm is basically making them Morannon Orcs, and also making Moria Orcs pretty much redundant as they are lower S but the same D and only a point cheaper. I appreciate that maybe it would be truer to the film to have them D5 base, but I like the idea of having tougher orcs and stronger orcs, but separate rather than in the same profile as honestly I think Orcs should still be cheap and cheerful troops rather than having multiple 'above average' stats. Having the 2 profiles and the Mordor Orc option gives you the chance to specialise your Orc troops, but each also has positives and drawbacks so you actually need to think about which you'd rather have; greater killing power or greater toughness.

I see your point. I dont disagree with you. Im looking at it as with isengard you have uruk(elite 8 pts) orc(non elite, cheap) one is better the other is more numerous. That situation allows for more wide range in force numbers. Both orcs moria and gundabad costing the same doesnt allow for much flux in the numbers game. BUT the list as is and your point of having pros and cons of each with them being the same points is valid. Since you feel quite strongly about it and that this set up with the orcs is good(just not my way) i will say keep it as is.

What would you suggest for a 4-point Goblin statline that still has armour (as this is what sets the Goblin Mercs apart)? Seeing as unarmoured Goblin Town Goblins are already 4 points, and +1D shoud mean +1 points, I can't see how you could make them worse and still different from Goblin Town Goblins.

Fight value 2/6+? they still have the d4 and s3 but a fight lower then the average human, dwarf, or orc. Dropping a fight value is worth the points reduction. For me i see goblin mercs as russian conscripts.

War Trolls: If you weren't using any of the upgrades, a Mordor Troll is just as good and the same price. If I up the price, you've then got the issue that you're paying more for the same base stats, which is a bigger problem in my eyes. But I'm open to a concensus here.

if you arent using the options then you take the mordor troll then. I really dont know thats just my opinion of the matter so id see what the community says.

War Beasts are tricky. On one hand, I want the profile to be a 'one size fits all', but I don't want it to be abusable and just run everything as a variation of 'War Beast' tailored to a role. At the same time, if I price it too high for its base stats, then it just becomes useless. I think I've edited it up to 5 points in the last one, not sure what more I can do without going over the line and making them too expensive for what you get. If anyone has ideas on this, I'm all ears.

5 points is great, id leave it

Captain: Map looks fine, but shouldn't the Evil Deployment go all the way to the centre line, 24" in? I know you've got that marked, but the line seems to be in the wrong place. Not an issue if you don't have time to fix it, as the measurements are all correct, but it would be great if you could.


And once that's done, I think we're ready to rock with V2.0!

F2 Goblins at 4ppm is doable, and also allows greater variation in numbers due to the wider gap with Orcs. So mission accomplished there.

I think the troll thing is a bit of a non-issue, really. You either take the upgrades, paying for them as you go, or you don't and you take a War Troll or Mordor troll and get identical stats for the same cost. Either way, you get a troll and you get what you pay for.

 Paradigm wrote:
F2 Goblins at 4ppm is doable, and also allows greater variation in numbers due to the wider gap with Orcs. So mission accomplished there.

I think the troll thing is a bit of a non-issue, really. You either take the upgrades, paying for them as you go, or you don't and you take a War Troll or Mordor troll and get identical stats for the same cost. Either way, you get a troll and you get what you pay for.

This sounds like a final product...........

V2.0 is here!

Major changes:
Reworked Dwarf Warrior options; it became apparent they would be paying waaay too much for Crossbows at 12ppm, so they are now 8 points base and with Shield/[pike/crossbow options at 2 points apiece
Mahud-style Impale rule added to Ramriders, costs adjusted accordingly
Great Beast and Ogre (formerly Olog-Hai) have significantly reworked profiles
Various stat fixes
Added scenario maps, expansions for existing army lists and a 5000 point mega-scenario courtesy of a One Ring user

I can't manage to download it on my tablet so when I get on my PC I'll check it out quick question, has the one ring community been a good help ? I was thinking of joining up !

Yeah, I've had some great feedback over there on this project, and as a community it seems to be an active and friendly one. There's also some great painters/modellers over there that don't post on here or other sites, so it's well worth signing up and checking that out.

Posted this in the wrong thread originally, but bringing it over here for completeness:

I'm just about to start editing on V3, here's my fix list (which I'm hoping will be the final one)

- Rename Moria Orcs to DG Orcs
- Lower catapult cost on Triioll to 50-60 points
- Bats get -1F unless another is nearby
- Add note that external heroes (the chaps from the GW supplement) can lead Warbands.

Anyone got anything else to add/alter? If not, I'm thinking this will be the work finished. I was asked about adding little fluff descriptors for each profile, but I think I'll only add that after the rules are 100% sorted.