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Kangodo wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Moving is not charging.

Aah great, I was waiting for this.
The entire Charge Move-sequence has 21 times the word move, moved or movement.

Are you really going to tell me that charging is not a move or should I quote each of those 21 lines?
Because I would have to ask a mod if I am allowed to quote that many BRB-lines.

 Lobukia wrote:

If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?

They did move through difficult terrain. Just their movement happened as if it was open. That's terrain's still there, and when checking initiative, yes, they did charge through difficult terrain. This is now about the path of the models not about a special rule effecting how they moved through the terrain on that path.

"As if" doesn't change what "is"

Then please tell me what the use of 'treat as if' is.
What is the use of the entire Wraithflight-rule?

if it said "treat as if", I could. You MOVE as if. I did say that I would concede the logic of no movement penalty on a charge (you can read it, right above, in the post you quoted from... so not sure why you spent most of your post trying to contend with something I already conceded to... whatever).

What is does say is "move as if". So you can do that. But it certainly does not say "fight as if" or "strike as if", or anything of that nature.

I like the point above about Harlies and their rules. Lets look at those. The flip belt takes the time to say that is both not slowed and doesn't take the initiative penalty. You know why? Because it needs to. One doesn't give the other.

 Lobukia wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Moving is not charging.

Aah great, I was waiting for this.
The entire Charge Move-sequence has 21 times the word move, moved or movement.

Are you really going to tell me that charging is not a move or should I quote each of those 21 lines?
Because I would have to ask a mod if I am allowed to quote that many BRB-lines.

 Lobukia wrote:

If they moved through Open Terrain, did they move through difficult terrain?

They did move through difficult terrain. Just their movement happened as if it was open. That's terrain's still there, and when checking initiative, yes, they did charge through difficult terrain. This is now about the path of the models not about a special rule effecting how they moved through the terrain on that path.

"As if" doesn't change what "is"

Then please tell me what the use of 'treat as if' is.
What is the use of the entire Wraithflight-rule?

if it said "treat as if", I could. You MOVE as if. I did say that I would concede the logic of no movement penalty on a charge (you can read it, right above, in the post you quoted from... so not sure why you spent most of your post trying to contend with something I already conceded to... whatever).

What is does say is "move as if". So you can do that. But it certainly does not say "fight as if" or "strike as if", or anything of that nature.

I like the point above about Harlies and their rules. Lets look at those. The flip belt takes the time to say that is both not slowed and doesn't take the initiative penalty. You know why? Because it needs to. One doesn't give the other.

You do understand that the Harlie rule and Wraithflight are worded very, very differently, yes?
If you move as if through Open Terrain, why are you assigning a penalty based on moving through difficult terrain? One that literally can only ever exist if you move through difficult terrain?

Because you DID move through difficult terrain... you were just allowed to make that move as if it wasn't.

Just the move

'cause that's what it says

all other phases and sub phases don't care what you pretended you were doing while moving, the checks are for what you did

Which IS moving through DT

So you take penalties as such

BTW: I didn't bring up the harlies, someone else did.

 Lobukia wrote:
Because you DID move through difficult terrain... you were just allowed to make that move as if it wasn't.

The rules disagree. If you say I moved through difficult terrain, you're not treating it as if I moved through Open Terrain.

Just the move

'cause that's what it says

all other phases and sub phases don't care what you pretended you were doing while moving, the checks are for what you did

Which IS moving through DT

So you take penalties as such

Please reference the rule requiring me to treat Open Terrain as difficult terrain - Wraithflight requires that I treat difficult terrain as Open Terrain.
Doing otherwise (what you're doing here) would require a contradicting rule.

BTW: I didn't bring up the harlies, someone else did.

And you used it in your argument. That means it's on you to verify the veracity or worthiness of the statement.

I am now certain that everyone who says you have moved through difficult terrain either doesnt actually own the rulebook or hasn't read the battlefield terrain section WHERE OPEN GROUND IS A TYPE OF TERRAIN!

sm3g wrote:
I am now certain that everyone who says you have moved through difficult terrain either doesnt actually own the rulebook or hasn't read the battlefield terrain section WHERE OPEN GROUND IS A TYPE OF TERRAIN!

Please don't yell or antagonize people.
The BRB is a complicated book with a lot of rules interactions that have changed in the recent edition that are obscure. The only reason I stumbled upon this was due to an earlier discussion about Citadel Scenery Models. If you feel someone needs to refer to a section of the book, simply recommend them to, as antagonizing people usually causes them to become more combative and does not help the discussion.

Though on that note, you should not have a rules argument unless you have the most current rules at your disposal. Otherwise you may be arguing a point based on misinformation.

If you disagree with what someone is saying, double check it with your own eyes and make your own opinion.

rigeld2 wrote:

The rules disagree. If you say I moved through difficult terrain, you're not treating it as if I moved through Open Terrain.

I don't have to for assault initiative steps. You're reading it as "move as if open terrain, and then apply that to all other scenarios other than movement where you check for terrain". You're inferring a meaning that is not there. You have permission to do the movement part of a turn "as if open terrain". You do not have permission to use if for anything else other than movement. And it doesn't say "treat as if". If it did say "treat the wraith as if is moving through open terrain" you'd have a point. That wraith would now have the status "moved through open terrain" for any further checks. But that's not what the rules say at all. It says "move" and only move is done "as if" it was open terrain.

If I said "schedule today as if it was a Thursday" to my secretary and then an hour later asked her what day it was... if she didn't say "Monday", we'd all find that odd. Same thing. Moving = as if open terrain... what terrain did it actually go over = is difficult... now swing at init 1.

I can't stop you from applying things that aren't there, or dropping in meanings that don't exist. But putting the burden of proof on my position is backwards. The rules and grammar support my reading of the rule as it is written. Any inference is happening on your end and therefore needs additional support.

No it isn't like asking what day it is, it's like asking "what schedule did I follow yesterday?". If they said anything other than Thursday's they'd be wrong (unless of course Thursday's schedule is the same as another day's, but we'll assume it's not).

The I penalty calls for them to have moved through DT. Have they? If you say yes then you aren't following the Wraithflight special rule which says "no, they moved through Open Ground".

 Lobukia wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

The rules disagree. If you say I moved through difficult terrain, you're not treating it as if I moved through Open Terrain.

I don't have to for assault initiative steps. You're reading it as "move as if open terrain, and then apply that to all other scenarios other than movement where you check for terrain". You're inferring a meaning that is not there. You have permission to do the movement part of a turn "as if open terrain". You do not have permission to use if for anything else other than movement. And it doesn't say "treat as if". If it did say "treat the wraith as if is moving through open terrain" you'd have a point. That wraith would now have the status "moved through open terrain" for any further checks. But that's not what the rules say at all. It says "move" and only move is done "as if" it was open terrain.

Since you've misquoted it - and been corrected - multiple times, let's look at the actual rule again.

When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground.

If the Wraith moves over difficult terrain and you force an initiative penalty, it did not move over terrain as if it was open ground.
If the Wraith moves over difficult terrain and you force a -2" penalty to the charge range, it did not move over terrain as if it was open ground.

If I said "schedule today as if it was a Thursday" to my secretary and then an hour later asked her what day it was... if she didn't say "Monday", we'd all find that odd. Same thing.

It's almost like bad analogies are bad...

Moving = as if open terrain... what terrain did it actually go over = is difficult... now swing at init 1.

If the answer is difficult, then the wraith did not move over the terrain as if it was open ground. It moved as if it was difficult without any movement penalty - which isn't what the rules says.

I can't stop you from applying things that aren't there, or dropping in meanings that don't exist. But putting the burden of proof on my position is backwards. The rules and grammar support my reading of the rule as it is written. Any inference is happening on your end and therefore needs additional support.

Your stance has been proven incorrect and you've moved the goalposts multiple times. The burden of proof absolutely belongs on you - I've shown that the rules actually support the Wraith moving over Open ground, not difficult terrain.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
No it isn't like asking what day it is, it's like asking "what schedule did I follow yesterday?". If they said anything other than Thursday's they'd be wrong (unless of course Thursday's schedule is the same as another day's, but we'll assume it's not).

See, this is what I'm talking about. You guys are holding onto a status longer than the rules allow. You can say its open for moving. But you can't say its open for checking what terrain it is. It is what it is, difficult. You get to MOVE "as if" it wasn't. Only move, not swing blows, not order the initiative, not all this other stuff that the rule simply does not allow.

The I penalty calls for them to have moved through DT. Have they? If you say yes then you aren't following the Wraithflight special rule which says "no, they moved through Open Ground".

I most certainly am. We get to pretend, while moving, that its open terrain. Again. That's what the rules say. Any further application is simply not RAW.

And if, while moving, the DT is Open Ground for them, they can never move through DT (because it's Open Ground) and therefore never activate the I penalty.

 Lobukia wrote:
I most certainly am. We get to pretend, while moving, that its open terrain. Again. That's what the rules say. Any further application is simply not RAW.

Actual Rules instead of making things up wrote:To represent this, if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1, regardless of other Initiative modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain.

Did a model move through difficult terrain as part of its charge move? Demonstrably not - they moved as if it was open ground.
Therefore your assertions are incorrect, using applied RAW.

Using inferred RAI... is moved as if open, it did move through difficult... I can't say more than that, as there's not need. I'm out.

 Lobukia wrote:
See, this is what I'm talking about. You guys are holding onto a status longer than the rules allow.

And you're trying to enforce a penalty that only triggers by moving through difficult terrain, when the Wraithflight rules say that they can move over all terrain as if it were open ground. You're trying to retroactively trigger a rule when the unit attacks that only triggers when the unit moves.

 Lobukia wrote:
Using inferred RAI... is moved as if open, it did move through difficult... I can't say more than that, as there's not need. I'm out.

What inference? I spelled out the actual rules for you. Literally word for word, copy/paste from the rulebook.

It did not move through difficult terrain - Wraithflight proves that, without a doubt.

One thing, because I see it being used a lot of times:
Flip Belt and Wraithflight have different wordings because they have a different background.
Wraithflight 'ignores' the terrain because it's a flight.
Flip Belt 'ignores' the terrain because they make the bearer extremely agily.

Lobukia, you are essentially ignoring the BRB's definition of what charging is - a charge move, which is a form of movement. You can only suffer the initiative penalty from a charge move by charging through difficult terrain. Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground. This means that once they begin a charge, which is a form of movement, they "can" treat difficult terrain as open which changes that terrain type for the wraiths.

Beginning of Assault Phase
Wraiths Declare Charge
Overwatch
Roll Distance
Wraiths enter Open Ground (Difficult Terrain)
Game Status check! Did Wraiths move through Difficult Terrain? No, because they moved through Open Ground. Do they suffer a initiative or movement penalty? No, because they moved through Open Ground.
End Game Status check!
Wraiths end their movement.
Assault

To add to this, Wraiths are also beasts and have move through cover, Fleet, and are not slowed by terrain, and auto pass Dangerous terrain tests, as well as Wraith flight.

So yeah they get to swing at I5 with Whip coils when charging a unit in terrain.

Beast still takes the Init drop, its explicitly said in the rule "..., even if the unit is not slowed down by terrain..".

Move through cover avoids them to make dangerous terrain checks and throw an extra D6 when moving and fleet just allow to rethrow a Sprint/Assault throw.

So Beast/Cavalery takes the Ini drop, whats not clear is about the Wraithflight, the only thing i'm seeing, is free interpretation of the way its written.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Beast still takes the Init drop, its explicitly said in the rule "..., even if the unit is not slowed down by terrain..".

Move through cover avoids them to make dangerous terrain checks and throw an extra D6 when moving and fleet just allow to rethrow a Sprint/Assault throw.

So Beast/Cavalery takes the Ini drop, whats not clear is about the Wraithflight, the only thing i'm seeing, is free interpretation of the way its written.

There is actually only one correct interpretation of how wraithflight interacts with terrain, including when charging. Wraiths invoking wraithflight can never ever move through difficult terrain (treating it as Open ground instead), and can as such never ever suffer the I penalty. Any other interpretation is incorrect, as the chain of logic constantly repeated in this thread shows.

EDIT - So it is, actually, very clear.

Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.

"I'll make a cover save agains that lascannon"..."what cover save your in open ground"...

 deevil wrote:
Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.

"I'll make a cover save agains that lascannon"..."what cover save your in open ground"...

If I recall, you fire Overwatch, then you perform your charge move.
Also, they have a 3+ Invulnerable Save.

 deevil wrote:
Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.

"I'll make a cover save agains that lascannon"..."what cover save your in open ground"...

From 'Wraithflight' in Codex Necrons:

When moving, Canoptek Wraiths can move over all other models and terrain as if they were open ground.

Cover is determined by whether or not the firing unit can see their targets. It has nothing to do with how the targeted unit treats the terrain.

 deevil wrote:
Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.

"I'll make a 3+ invulnerable save agains that lascannon"..."f**k"...

FTFY

TompiQ wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Beast still takes the Init drop, its explicitly said in the rule "..., even if the unit is not slowed down by terrain..".

Move through cover avoids them to make dangerous terrain checks and throw an extra D6 when moving and fleet just allow to rethrow a Sprint/Assault throw.

So Beast/Cavalery takes the Ini drop, whats not clear is about the Wraithflight, the only thing i'm seeing, is free interpretation of the way its written.

There is actually only one correct interpretation of how wraithflight interacts with terrain, including when charging. Wraiths invoking wraithflight can never ever move through difficult terrain (treating it as Open ground instead), and can as such never ever suffer the I penalty. Any other interpretation is incorrect, as the chain of logic constantly repeated in this thread shows.

EDIT - So it is, actually, very clear.

There is one time that open terrain would count at Difficult/Dangerous and that is a round from the Thunderfire cannon, which makes open ground count as Dangerous/Difficult. but other than that I believe you are correct

Ya, anything that turns Open Ground around it into Difficult or Dangerous would mess with the Wraiths.

 deevil wrote:
Interesting, So following this thought to completion... As the argument is that wraiths have no penalties when charging as they are not affected by the terrain rules as Wraiths "can" move through all terrain as if it were open ground, sooo Wraiths don't get cover bonuses when charging through DT and the target unit is overwatching?... noted.

"I'll make a cover save agains that lascannon"..."what cover save your in open ground"...

They treat it as open ground when moving. Which means if someone where shooting at them while they where moving they wouldn't get a cover save =) I have never seen that happen in a 40K-game. Not even when firing overwatch, because overwatch triggers before the charge move.

However, the difficult terrain penalty that sets initiative 1 is triggered by moving through difficult terrain, so if they move as if in open terrain, it does not trigger.

"What cover save your in open ground"

Let's just go with the 3++ invulnerable then Then I will take my 4+ RP
You would need 12 Lascannon-Wounds to kill my Wraith.

 BLADERIKER wrote:

TompiQ wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Beast still takes the Init drop, its explicitly said in the rule "..., even if the unit is not slowed down by terrain..".

Move through cover avoids them to make dangerous terrain checks and throw an extra D6 when moving and fleet just allow to rethrow a Sprint/Assault throw.

So Beast/Cavalery takes the Ini drop, whats not clear is about the Wraithflight, the only thing i'm seeing, is free interpretation of the way its written.

There is actually only one correct interpretation of how wraithflight interacts with terrain, including when charging. Wraiths invoking wraithflight can never ever move through difficult terrain (treating it as Open ground instead), and can as such never ever suffer the I penalty. Any other interpretation is incorrect, as the chain of logic constantly repeated in this thread shows.

EDIT - So it is, actually, very clear.

There is one time that open terrain would count at Difficult/Dangerous and that is a round from the Thunderfire cannon, which makes open ground count as Dangerous/Difficult. but other than that I believe you are correct

Moving as if in difficult terrain is the one effect that does effect the wraiths. Luckily, the Tremor effect on the TFC Only works in the movement phase. In addition to that, wraiths have move through cover so would ignore the movement penalty anyway!

But if you somehow apply a "move as if in difficult terrain" during the assault phase, they would strike at I1 if charging ondeed.

What would happen if they were hit by something with strike down? It makes them move as if in difficult terrain the following turn.