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 Ashiraya wrote:
I do not think I4 for Celestians is the answer.

If you don't believe that this is the answer, then perhaps you should give an alternative. As it is, taking Celestians are utterly pointless because of the unnecessary, unfluffy, and irrational nerf that you support.

 Melissia wrote:
There is no reason for MArines to be I5 except for an irrational desire for some boring, unfluffy "movie marines" nonsense.

At this point I am starting to wonder if you have an axe to grind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
(Cheaper?) special melee weapons + price drop + special acts of faith for more attacks/FNP/hatred

That is what I suggest.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There is no reason for MArines to be I5 except for an irrational desire for some boring, unfluffy "movie marines" nonsense.

At this point I am starting to wonder if you have an axe to grind.

So you don't have a workable alternative, then, as you choose to focus on this instead of providing one?

In addition to what I said above, maybe some other special rule?

Like, 'Sacred Hunt'. PE: Chosen enemy unit/unit type.

That 'strike after death' thing Repentia used to have, as well. NONNNNE CAN STAY THE EMPEROR'S RETRIBUTION.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
(Cheaper?) special melee weapons + price drop + special acts of faith for more attacks/FNP/hatred

That is what I suggest.

So instead of doing the simple, rational thing and just giving them I4 like the lore suggests, you would haphazardly slap on a random assortment of special rules and turn an elite unit of humanity's finest infantry in to cheap cannon fodder.

And you expect me to think this is a good thing.

Why?

What makes I4 so much more important than any of that?

You strike simultaneously with MEQ with your two S3 AP- attacks, wohooo! That is totally going to be better than special weapons.

There are also zero lore mentions of Celestians being faster than regular humans like Guardsmen. Zero! Not a single one!

While not a new unit, I would like to see a sort of a thematic shift. This "nuns with guns" thing is growing old, so I think some refreshment would serve the Sisters right. For example, they could return to their witch-hunter roots and become the same thing for heretics/psykers than the Grey Knights for daemons: a rather shadowy, secretive organization operating above and beyond normal Imperial jurisdiction, tasked to keep in check a very specific threat. They could even get a face-lift with a new, more "advanced" design like this:


Otherwise, for a new unit, I want the Faithknight .

That is very cool!

(Except the Faithknight.)

 Ashiraya wrote:
What makes I4 so much more important than any of that?

You're arguing for a nerf I never agreed with in the first place. Why do you think I am going to be easy on your arguments?

So I repeat: You state that you want to turn the most elite of humanity's infantry in to cheaper cannon fodder with a slapped on, haphazard assortment of special rules and a nerf to their statline that I strongly disagree with. Why on Earth do you think I would like this? Hell, your objection to I4 not making a big difference also applies to your motley assortment of special rules . None of them would change the fact that the elite Celestians would be hitting at I3 S3 AP-.

And turning your argument around, there's literally nothing in the lore that says Sisters are slower than Marines, while there's quite a few mentions of Sisters being equal to Marines in combat prowess. And Celestians are the top fighters amongst Sisters, whom in previous editions were one of the most skilled (in terms of to-hit rolls) close combat infantry squads in the game.

Marines are faster than humans, as said, and last I checked all SoB are human (except the supersaiyan Living Saints).

Don't throw the nerf thing at me. GW nerfed that, it's just a nerf I think is a non-issue.

The "nuns with guns" thing is what they've always been (although it's a fan-created reductive explanation of the faction), even when they were the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus (which is the witch-hunting arm of the Inquisition). Witch-hunting is what the Sisters do.

That image isn't even all that face-lifted. It's an artist's interpretation of Sisters PA, she's wielding a chainsword and a bolt pistol. Pretty standard stuff for the Sisters.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines are faster than humans

They are faster than untrained humans. But skilled human fighters can keep up with them, and have done so time and again in the lore.

 Ashiraya wrote:
(except the supersaiyan Living Saints).

Saying crap like this while spanking off marines does not convince me one iota that you're being honest when you say you don't hate Sisters, especially when you come in this thread whining that you think marine stats are too low and try to derail the thread in to talking about marines instead.

@Melissia

Well, at the defense of Ashiraya, I don't think he hates Sisters or any Imperium based faction. In fact, during other debates of opinion, he did gave quite a few roses to both Sisters and Guardsmen. So I think he his honest when he says he likes them.

The only major difference is that he stronlgy believes that Space Marines should head, shoulder and waist above normal humans when it comes to personnal prowess (those are his word if I remember well). That's why he his opposed to any buff to human warriors if not balanced by a buff to Space Marines and by extention to some other faction. His vision of the Space Marines makes them almost inviscible demi-gods of war fighting those no one else can fights (eldars, necron, big tyranid and orks, tau battlesuits veterans, daemons, etc.).

It doesn't necessarly make the Sister weak, but it makes them almost useless next to Marines. In fact, all elite humans warriors, be they Scions, Skitarii or Sisters, become fonctionnaly sidekicks of marines while guardsmen become cheerleaders at best or sandbags at worse. He wants them good, but he doesn't want them to rival them at all. That's the difference.

I would say all armies should rival each other rather nicely else the entire setting for the game would be a joke, but that's another debate.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines are faster than humans, as said, and last I checked all SoB are human (except the supersaiyan Living Saints).

Don't throw the nerf thing at me. GW nerfed that, it's just a nerf I think is a non-issue.

Lets see if i can end this right now. I hold in my hand right a witch hunters codex from 3rd edition. I quote

"So great is their(referring to SoB in general) faith and force of will that even outnumbered they have gone toe to toe with Renegade (Chaos) Space Marines and come out victorious."

End Quotes

Given what is said above it would be safe to assume the the VETRENS (at the least) of the Adepta Sororitas are at least I4.

Yes it is a shame that Grots can take out a daemon price, and ripper swarms can kill a riptide. But in the fluff such things happen

heres an example from fifth edition Tyrandids codex.

Ultra Marines getting tied up in combat with gaunts at the siege of ultramar.

epronovost wrote:
It doesn't necessarly make the Sister weak, but it makes them almost useless next to Marines. In fact, all elite humans warriors, be they Scions, Skitarii or Sisters, become fonctionnaly sidekicks of marines while guardsmen become cheerleaders at best or sandbags at worse. He wants them good, but he doesn't want them to rival them at all. That's the difference.

No, that is not what she wants.

She wants them to be extremely good, yes, arguably better than Melissia would like them to be. But that does not make other Imperial factions useless - especially since there's just one million Marines and once the gun gets big enough they die all the same.

Marines can't hold meaningful territory due to limited numbers, and can't do stealth as well as say, Scions. Massed tank assaults and artillery sieges is generally better done by Guard as they have the numbers to do so. Even if they are extremely strong, Marines can still just do specific point attacks since they lack the numbers to conquer to defend much on their own.

 Madoch1 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Marines are faster than humans, as said, and last I checked all SoB are human (except the supersaiyan Living Saints).

Don't throw the nerf thing at me. GW nerfed that, it's just a nerf I think is a non-issue.

Lets see if i can end this right now. I hold in my hand right a witch hunters codex from 3rd edition. I quote

"So great is their(referring to SoB in general) faith and force of will that even outnumbered they have gone toe to toe with Renegade (Chaos) Space Marines and come out victorious."

End Quotes

Given what is said above it would be safe to assume the the VETRENS (at the least) of the Adepta Sororitas are at least I4.

Yes it is a shame that Grots can take out a daemon price, and ripper swarms can kill a riptide. But in the fluff such things happen

heres an example from fifth edition Tyrandids codex.

Ultra Marines getting tied up in combat with gaunts at the siege of ultramar.

That's third edition. That was four editions ago. Things change.

 Melissia wrote:
They are faster than untrained humans. But skilled human fighters can keep up with them, and have done so time and again in the lore.

That is far less consistent. It's about as common as Superman Marines performing demigod level feats, and I consider them about as plausible. That is, probably just propaganda.

 Melissia wrote:
Saying crap like this while spanking off marines does not convince me one iota that you're being honest when you say you don't hate Sisters, especially when you come in this thread whining that you think marine stats are too low and try to derail the thread in to talking about marines instead.

I am not attacking you. Please, do not attack me.

I called them 'supersaiyan' facetiously because they are flying, glowing people who shoot magical/psychic/whateverinterpretationyouprefer fire.

I argued alternative ways for adjusting SoB and argued with comparisons to Space Marines, which I do not think is derailing.

I still do not see what's so wrong with special weapons and abilities instead of I4. The benefits are far greater in practice.

I did not come to this thread praise Marines, though that does not mean I won't defend the reasoning behind my suggested changes if they are criticised.

@Ashiraya

The Ordo Hereticus codex was the last codex published on paper and fully supported by GW. Yes, it does count for a lot when it comes to Sister.

The first edition Rogue Trader book was also published on paper and fully supported by GW. I'd always be careful with fluff once it is a few editions old.

With far more lore examples contradicting it than supporting it, I would not be so sure it's still considered relevant.

Everyone - Just a friendly reminder to keep Rule #1 foremost in your thoughts as you type a reply in this thread...

Thanks!

 Ashiraya wrote:
That's third edition. That was four editions ago. Things change.

Actually, yes they do.

These days, Sisters defeat Space Marines far, far more often than the reverse. So... that actually goes against your argument.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That is far less consistent.

No it's not. It's extremely consistent that when a non-Marine protagonist fights a marine they do so on even grounds and usually win.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That is, probably just propaganda.

Marines being "inhumanly fast" is "probably just propaganda".

 Ashiraya wrote:
I called them 'supersaiyan' facetiously because they are flying, glowing people who shoot magical/psychic/whateverinterpretationyouprefer fire.

Their sword has a flamer attached, and you call it "magical"?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I argued alternative ways for adjusting SoB

And I objected to them because they were nonsense, turning a faction of the most elite soldiers of humanity... in to cheap cannon fodder to be spammed, attempting to make up for the nerf by adding slapping on a random assortment of special rules and hoping for the best.

 Ashiraya wrote:
and argued with comparisons to Space Marines

By complaining that Space Marines don't have high enough stats for you. Stop doing that.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I did not come to this thread praise Marines

Then stop doing it.


Basically, the equivalent to your suggestion is a chaos marine player saying "I'm tired of loyalists being equal to chaos marines, since legionnaires should be better from their ten thousand years of fighting, so let's nerf the loyalist statline and make up for it by giving them a ton of special rules and reducing their price".

It's just as unfluffy and silly as your suggestion. Turning Sisters in to "Guard Plus" is no better than your claim of people wanting to turn Sisters in to "Marine Lite".

 Melissia wrote:
Actually, yes they do.

These days, Sisters defeat Space Marines far, far more often than the reverse. So... that actually goes against your argument.

I have not seen anything that supports this claim.

 Melissia wrote:
No it's not. It's extremely consistent that when a non-Marine protagonist fights a marine they do so on even grounds and usually win.

Outside of plot armour like Cain, Gaunt and their friends, I can't think of many examples at all. In fact, even if we do count them, they are still outnumbered by things like this.



Note how the Astartes are not even protagonists in this. In fact, they are not even allies. They are antagonists.

I have, of course, taken plot armour into account for SM too. Hence why I ignore Brothers of the Snake, Talos' supersonic running, The First Heretic's FTL Marines, etc etc.

 Melissia wrote:
Marines being "inhumanly fast" is "probably just propaganda".

Admittedly possible, but highly unlikely. Mentions of such inhuman speed are very common and widespread. If we assume that the likelihood of any given fluff passage is equally likely to be propaganda to any other passage, then the more commonly mentioned something is, the more likely it is to be true. For example, that the Emperor sits on the Golden Throne is a very common statement and therefore probably true. If one book said that someone else did, without the book portraying it as a plot twist and instead just contradicting the other statements, then it is not only in itself far less likely to be true, it also necessitates all the Emperor-on-Throne mentions being false. Therefore it is exponentially less likely to be true.

 Melissia wrote:
Their sword has a flamer attached, and you call it "magical"?

Are you 100% sure? I could not spot any flamer on the sword.

 Melissia wrote:
And I objected to them because they were nonsense, turning a faction of the most elite soldiers of humanity... in to cheap cannon fodder to be spammed, attempting to make up for the nerf by adding slapping on a random assortment of special rules and hoping for the best.

Giving them strong and specifically chosen special rules like Hatred, PE or FnP to help them with their job and suitable weapons to enhance their melee ability does not seem traits typical of cannon fodder. A points cost reduction is just a helper so that you can fit in more other things in the force. Possessed could use a points drop, for instance, but that would not make them less than they are in any way.

 Melissia wrote:
By complaining that Space Marines don't have high enough stats for you. Stop doing that.

The SOB Initiative thing is a symptom of a larger problem, which I mentioned and talked about. It should not be considered my main point - see above suggestions for that.

 Melissia wrote:
Then stop doing it.

I reserve the right to defend my opinions when they are being criticised. Comparisons is the most relevant way to do so.


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 Melissia wrote:

Basically, the equivalent to your suggestion is a chaos marine player saying "I'm tired of loyalists being equal to chaos marines, since legionnaires should be better from their ten thousand years of fighting, so let's nerf the loyalist statline and make up for it by giving them a ton of special rules and reducing their price".

It's just as unfluffy and silly as your suggestion. Turning Sisters in to "Guard Plus" is no better than your claim of people wanting to turn Sisters in to "Marine Lite".

I have not suggested any nerfs whatsoever.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have not seen anything that supports this claim.

For example, when San Leor was attacked by chaos marines, it was repelled quite easily.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Admittedly possible, but highly unlikely.

Extremely likely, actually. Space Marines have a ton of propaganda spread about them, by GW's own admission.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Mentions of such inhuman speed are very common and widespread.

So? Just means the propaganda is widespread. Doesn't mean there's any truth to it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Are you 100% sure? I could not spot any flamer on the sword.

The profile of the sword in tabletop lists that it can be used as a flamer.

 Ashiraya wrote:
A points cost reduction is just a helper so that you can fit in more other things in the force.

When accompanied by a nerf to their statline, it says they're not really elite, they're supposed to be spammed instead.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I reserve the right to defend my opinions when they are being criticised. Comparisons is one way to do that.

And I reserve the right to criticize your focus on Marines in a thread that has nothing to do with marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I have not suggested any nerfs whatsoever.

Advocating for a nerf to stay in place is the same thing as advocating for the nerf in the first place. I recognize no functional difference.

 Melissia wrote:
For example, when San Leor was attacked by chaos marines, it was repelled quite easily.

Oh yes, that is one example. I mean more like empirical evidence. There's scattered, lone claims here and there, but they do not really prove much anything at all on their own.

 Melissia wrote:
Extremely likely, actually. Space Marines have a ton of propaganda spread about them, by GW's own admission.

SM have lots of propaganda, for sure. I found that too. However, I did not find anything saying their propaganda is greater in number and/or proportion compared to, say, IG.

 Melissia wrote:
Just means the propaganda is widespread. Doesn't mean there's any truth to it.

I mean, the entire SoB 3rd ed Codex could have been propaganda.

In the absence of other statements, I assume that any given piece of fluff is in a vacuum equally likely to be propaganda to any other.

 Melissia wrote:
The profile of the sword in tabletop lists that it can be used as a flamer.

But where does the flames come from? There's no flamer on it. There's no fuel, nor any firing mechanism, or even a barrel. Do the flames just magically come out of nowhere?

 Melissia wrote:
When accompanied by a nerf to their statline, it says they're not really elite, they're supposed to be spammed instead.

I dunno. Sanguinary Guard got a price drop and they feel just as elite before. I mean, it's not exactly accompanied the I drop, right? The I drop has been there for a time.

 Melissia wrote:
And I reserve the right to criticize your focus on Marines in a thread that has nothing to do with marines.

The reason I mentioned them to begin with was as suitable comparisons and justification for why I4 might not actually be ideal from a fluff standpoint. After that, it was all in response to responses to said justification.

A justification I still insist is fair.

 Melissia wrote:
Advocating for a nerf to stay in place is the same thing as advocating for the nerf in the first place.

I consider reverting the nerf unnecessary.

I consider the nerf to MoK unnecessary too, just like reverting it would be. It's a minor concern that does not really need to be adressed; other problems and possibilities are entirely sufficient.

If it bothers you to have them cheaper, think of it like this:

Celestians now cost 1 ppm less and get access to special weapons.

Celestians now can access special weapons, the first of which costs less points.

These are functionally identical if you actually intend to use them for melee and upgrade them accordingly.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Oh yes, that is one example. I mean more like empirical evidence.

Define "empirical evidence". Because you may be looking for something that is literally impossible to provide.

 Ashiraya wrote:
SM have lots of propaganda, for sure. I found that too. However, I did not find anything saying their propaganda is greater in number and/or proportion compared to, say, IG.

The fact that there's more material written for Space Marines means there's more propaganda for Space Marines.

 Ashiraya wrote:
But where does the flames come from?

My proposed theory is that it's an advanced power field that is capable of producing the effect of a flamer. Regardless, it's quite clear that it's the sword that does it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I dunno. Sanguinary Guard got a price drop and they feel just as elite before.

They didn't get a nerf to their statline.

 Ashiraya wrote:
The reason I mentioned them to begin with was as suitable comparisons and justification for why I4 might not actually be ideal from a fluff standpoint.

Come up with a better example then. Marines are irrelevant as far as this thread is concerned. It's not about them . Screw them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I consider reverting the nerf unnecessary.

Which is the same as advocating for the nerf in the first place. I recognize no distinction between advocating for a nerf and advocating for a nerf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
If it bothers you to have them cheaper, think of it like this:

Celestians now cost 1 ppm less and get access to special weapons.

Celestians now can access special weapons, the first of which costs less points.

These are functionally identical if you actually intend to use them for melee and upgrade them accordingly.

Or we could do something that makes sense instead, and remove the nerf, restoring them to I4 and WS4, and give them access to melee-focused upgrades, which is something I have advocated for years now.

Slapping a few power swords on them while insisting they remain WS3/I3 isn't going to make them much more useful.

I'm interested in the thread title and posts related to it. Anyone else have more ideas?

How about relic hunters or some kind of flyer idea?

Eadartri wrote:
I'm interested in the thread title and posts related to it. Anyone else have more ideas?

How about relic hunters or some kind of flyer idea?

The main fliers that have been proposed have been transports. A Sororitas Valkyrie was mentioned and linked to earlier in the thread.

Eadartri wrote:
I'm interested in the thread title and posts related to it. Anyone else have more ideas?

How about relic hunters or some kind of flyer idea?

A few pages back there are some player made codex drafts as well.

I have my own fandex that was made for fifth edition, as well, but back then fliers weren't really a thing that was common, and it's a few editions out of date (i'm way too busy to update it). Still, it did have a flier/transport idea.

What about a sort of Sisters equivalent of a Lone Wolf - a very durable warrior who acts as a melee whirlwind. She would probably be a high risk but high reward model. Make her quite customisable with the usual gamut of Imperial weaponry such as power weapons, hammers, storm shields etc.

What would make her different would be her ability to accumulate tokens for each wound she inflicts in battle. These could then be exchanged for buffs. GW now would probably have you roll for these rewards on a table but ideally she'd be able to choose, much like Tau do with Markerlight tokens.

Every token spent could increase a combat stat like Attacks, Initiative or WS by 1, or in exchange for more tokens you could gain less obvious powers such as a morale bubble, an extra Wound or a special rule - better special rules would cost more tokens.

 Melissia wrote:
Define "empirical evidence". Because you may be looking for something that is literally impossible to provide.

Numerous and consistent examples, more numerous than examples contradicting it even after accounting for amount of fluff overall. Currently, that is a contest that superspeed etc. Marines come out ahead in.

 Melissia wrote:
The fact that there's more material written for Space Marines means there's more propaganda for Space Marines.

Taken into account. There's a LOT of propaganda like supersonic marines. As already said, I have dismissed those, leaving the far more numerous sensible passages.

 Melissia wrote:
My proposed theory is that it's an advanced power field that is capable of producing the effect of a flamer. Regardless, it's quite clear that it's the sword that does it.

Ultimately, if a sword with roses is firing gouts of flame without the mention or display of any technology beyond the sword, occam's razor suggests its magic, sorcery, psychic powers, 'faith' powers or similarly esoteric things. Otherwise, why would no one have taken notice of this amazing technology? Why has no one else such a sword? How on earth does a power field become a gout of flame?

 Melissia wrote:
They didn't get a nerf to their statline.

Neither have I suggested one. WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A2 would be my suggestion, which is certainly not a nerf from status quo.

 Melissia wrote:
Come up with a better example then. Marines are irrelevant as far as this thread is concerned. It's not about them . Screw them.

They're perfectly good comparison points. I am not going to exclude comparisons because the faction in question is not to your taste.

 Melissia wrote:
Which is the same as advocating for the nerf in the first place. I recognize no distinction between advocating for a nerf and advocating for a nerf.

I am not advocating a nerf. The status quo is quite fine. I3 is entirely human and elite humans like Militarum Tempestus Tempestors have it. It is hardly a big deal.

 Melissia wrote:

Or we could do something that makes sense instead, and remove the nerf, restoring them to I4 and WS4, and give them access to melee-focused upgrades, which is something I have advocated for years now.

Slapping a few power swords on them while insisting they remain WS3/I3 isn't going to make them much more useful.

WS4, sure!

Melee upgrades, sure!

I4, as said, not really.

Hell, even with all the above they still won't be good. They're going to suffer from the same problem as Chosen - expensive low T sv3+ infantry who will never reach melee.

Hence why I advocated a price drop.

Snipping away at a few irrelevant conversation points because we're getting in to quote spam territory. Let's stick on topic, if you want my responses to the rest send me a PM.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am not advocating a nerf.

Either you're not advocating for the nerf, and you're okay with it being reversed... or you are advocating for the nerf, and you're not okay with it being reversed.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways. These are mutually exclusive options, and there is no third option here. Advocating for the status quo is the same thing as advocating for the nerf because the nerf IS status quo. It really isn't that hard to understand.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Hell, even with all the above they still won't be good.

There's better ways to solve this than just saying "screw it just spam them".