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 Hulksmash wrote:

 Big Mac wrote:

 Bryan01 wrote:
Top 16 lists are out:

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2016/04/07/tits-tournaments-adepticon-2016-top-16-lists/

A wee question regarding number 16, Kenneth Johnsons, the Tau player in the top 16. I see he took a Tau Empire CAD & FSE, both of his commanders in each separate CAD have Iridium Armour, which is a signature system. I thought the "one per army" included separate CADS from the same faction? (I could be wrong though, just asking for clarification).

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Kenneth-Johnson-16th-Overall-Adepticon-2016.pdf

According to AB it is, but I'm fairly sure that is incorrect, only 1 sig system per army; He's taking 2 identical sig systems from 2 different codex, but its still under 1 army. Tools like AB are good but still have mistakes, and players that uses it exclusively suffer. I'm in support of a more harsh penalty on players that exceed the pt level/errors made, in the end the players themselves should be responsible. Thus making them check their own army list against the codex and other necessary sources for error prior to the tourney.

On how harsh the penalty should be, it needs to be a balance. Stripping the prize and medal may be too harsh, but perhaps split the winnings with the 2nd place? If the player in question made a second error in the following same tourneys, perhaps strip the prize and honors.

Adepticon looks like a joke atm, 2 errors in the top 16, honest mistake or not, that is not acceptable.

I would say it's highly likely there was an error on BoK's writing of the list. They are generally recreating them to the best of their knowledge from what they get from other players. I doubt that Ken sent them a full army list.

I mean, mine is wrong as it has the wrong number of dogs and no magic hat for my RP and that was a cursory glance.

But Kudos to BoK for gathering the armies as much as they can for others to see. Just don't take the write ups as gospel of what was played.

I second this. Anything posted by secondary or tertiary sources needs to be looked at through a less scrutinizing lens.

I will say that I gave him a copy of my list written up in Word, and he put it into army builder. So some errors could have occurred when he inputted them. Luckily I don't see any errors in mine since eldar are pretty straight forward with upgrades

I played against Ken, he definitely only had one commander in general, so that list is probably close-guesswork.

He played, just to give you the gist of it, Cad, buffmander, some missile suits, couple min troops, 1 stormsurge, a riptide wing....and I think that was it if memory serves me.

Target wrote:
I played against Ken, he definitely only had one commander in general, so that list is probably close-guesswork.

He played, just to give you the gist of it, Cad, buffmander, some missile suits, couple min troops, 1 stormsurge, a riptide wing....and I think that was it if memory serves me.

Sounds standard, and believable.

There have been a good few list creator programs put out, and some of them are for pay. And they have problems. No one is magically creating an imperfect 40k army list generator any time soon- let alone some free coding from the community.

IF there is going to be list enforcement It would have to come from the tournament organization with required formats for lists to make them easier to read, e.g. excel only pts for units and upgrades listed out. Wargear listed out and spelled correctly with correct costs and limits for units.....list a nesting order of formations with units, and which books they are from.

Otherwise you have tournament organizers looking at AB, BS, whatever, excel, some guy penciling "inquiistor and friends 615 pts skyhammer 1k pts, assassin rest pts" on a post it with a coffee mug stain and trying to comb through books to see if it is all legit.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I would say it's highly likely there was an error on BoK's writing of the list. They are generally recreating them to the best of their knowledge from what they get from other players. I doubt that Ken sent them a full army list.

So, wait...BoK is back to stirring up gak over illegal lists (as usual), and throwing shade at players and events for not doing their due diligence in cross-checking the lists and ensuring their validity, claiming that it "isn't hard" to do, without actually going through the effort of making sure the lists they're putting up amidst these accusations of cheating are the right lists in the first place?

Sounds like list-checking really is easier said than done, no?

I mean yeah, if you don't get the right list in the first place and can't reach the players in question after the event to get their lists so you can post them up on your website, it's understandable that your information won't be entirely accurate. It's just kinda funny to me considering the situation, claiming three lists in the top 16 were illegal when at least one of those lists is potentially your mistake.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
I would say it's highly likely there was an error on BoK's writing of the list. They are generally recreating them to the best of their knowledge from what they get from other players. I doubt that Ken sent them a full army list.

So, wait...BoK is back to stirring up gak over illegal lists (as usual), and throwing shade at players and events for not doing their due diligence in cross-checking the lists and ensuring their validity, claiming that it "isn't hard" to do, without actually going through the effort of making sure the lists they're putting up amidst these accusations of cheating are the right lists in the first place?

Sounds like list-checking really is easier said than done, no?

I mean yeah, if you don't get the right list in the first place and can't reach the players in question after the event to get their lists so you can post them up on your website, it's understandable that your information won't be entirely accurate. It's just kinda funny to me considering the situation, claiming three lists in the top 16 were illegal when at least one of those lists is potentially your mistake.

Except in this case Tastey isn't claiming anything of the sort. And I'm not his biggest fan but he basically put up approximate lists to show what's going on. He probably should have a better disclaimer but meh.

Uh yeah, that's not my list. Not sure what the hell that is. Nice to see people are pulling things out of their butt.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Kenneth-Johnson-16th-Overall-Adepticon-2016.pdf

Seriously, before you're gonna try and be authoritative perhaps you might reach out to folks and check you have their list? It's not like whoever this tool is actually asked for my list during the tournament.

Further Edit: Just annoyed people think I'd actually have taken that. On a few levels. I don't begrudge BoK trying to get some info out there, but it's the height of simplicity to find out who I am and asking me. Preferably DURING the tournament. And if you haven't? Make sure the list is marked as speculative, please. Last thing I want to see are folks reaching out to me asking "wait did you actually take that?!" because somebody didn't even try remotely to do their homework.

Thanks Hulk and Target for the responses on this. Crazy talk!

GreyDragoon wrote:
Uh yeah, that's not my list. Not sure what the hell that is. Nice to see people are pulling things out of their butt.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Kenneth-Johnson-16th-Overall-Adepticon-2016.pdf

Seriously, before you're gonna try and be authoritative perhaps you might reach out to folks and check you have their list? It's not like whoever this tool is actually asked for my list during the tournament.

Reach out to the people you write about?

Confirm facts?

Are you mad?


THIS IS BOK!

He definitely should have reached out - maybe he just assumed you wouldn't share it since you posted this in the AdeptiCon thread?

GreyDragoon wrote:
I'm not of the list posting type. If one of my opponents wants to share they can, but I prefer to keep playing lists with a slightly different take on Tau (they're not completely off the wall) and publishing them as netlists never helps that. So I would prefer they not as well.

General outline of it was Tau CAD, FE Allies, Riptide Wing, Inq.

Not saying they got it right posting something they hadn't verified, but they do read this section of Dakka so maybe saw the above and didn't follow up.

 Hulksmash wrote:
And I'm not his biggest fan but he basically put up approximate lists to show what's going on. He probably should have a better disclaimer but meh.

Then he should make that clear from the start, because nowhere on that page does it say the lists he posted for the top 16 are "close approximations" or otherwise something random he cobbled together based on what other players at the event told him. He's presenting these as the actual lists that were "made legal per the rules of Adepticon" as far as I can tell. Nowhere does it say there's potential for mistakes in the lists he posted.

 RiTides wrote:
He definitely should have reached out - maybe he just assumed you wouldn't share it since you posted this in the AdeptiCon thread?

GreyDragoon wrote:
I'm not of the list posting type. If one of my opponents wants to share they can, but I prefer to keep playing lists with a slightly different take on Tau (they're not completely off the wall) and publishing them as netlists never helps that. So I would prefer they not as well.

General outline of it was Tau CAD, FE Allies, Riptide Wing, Inq.

Not saying they got it right posting something they hadn't verified, but they do read this section of Dakka so maybe saw the above and didn't follow up.

All he had to do was mention that the list(s) aren't confirmed and I'd be just fine. Annoyed that Nick H. couldn't be bothered to even ask if what he was going to post was correct, ask me directly for a list, or just throw a little text in saying that he didn't confirm it.

Agreed that he should have confirmed - but since the only thing about your list I've seen posted was a single line summary by Target and a similar one by you, it's hard to even know how far off BoK is.

Basically, being cagey about the list is going to invite speculation... doesn't excuse it, but certainly makes it more likely (and more likely to be inaccurate).

Hulksmash posted earlier in this thread that BoK was asking for the Top 16 AdeptiCon lists and was trying to find his exact list to provide to them to post:

 Hulksmash wrote:
If anyone from Adepticon played me in the champs and still has my list could they send it to me? Just need to check something

 Hulksmash wrote:
Clarifying my list since I made top 16 and TastyTaste was asking for them.

There's obviously no obligation of any kind to do so, but the fact that they got the list wrong isn't that surprising since you haven't been willing to share it, either.

In the end it's really not a big deal either way, just thought it was worth pointing out that they'd publicized they were trying to put together the top lists, so it would've been easy to remedy (and still is, if you wanted to share it - if not, no worries!).

Fair enough I guess. Still not intending to post my list. Perhaps he could/should just note that he's making it up? And if he knows he's making it up, perhaps not making an illegal one right off the bat in a conversation about lists being legal/illegal would be prudent.

GreyDragoon wrote:
Uh yeah, that's not my list. Not sure what the hell that is. Nice to see people are pulling things out of their butt.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Kenneth-Johnson-16th-Overall-Adepticon-2016.pdf

Seriously, before you're gonna try and be authoritative perhaps you might reach out to folks and check you have their list? It's not like whoever this tool is actually asked for my list during the tournament.

Further Edit: Just annoyed people think I'd actually have taken that. On a few levels. I don't begrudge BoK trying to get some info out there, but it's the height of simplicity to find out who I am and asking me. Preferably DURING the tournament. And if you haven't? Make sure the list is marked as speculative, please. Last thing I want to see are folks reaching out to me asking "wait did you actually take that?!" because somebody didn't even try remotely to do their homework.

Thanks Hulk and Target for the responses on this. Crazy talk!

You complain that wasn't your list yet don't post your list here that seems silly.

Back on topic,

The OP was well off on pointing the finger. Blaming the system for a person that deliberately (or otherwise) used an illegal/incomplete/poorly written list is silly.
I also think it's not the correct direction to try and build a system or process that will catch all list mistakes/cheating for lists in tournaments. That's a very expensive method, and will never work 100% as 5 pages of discussion has shown us.

The real solution has to be with the players, having them be responsible for their own lists. I think the issue is very similar to quality management systems in modern manufacturing. If you don't make the players responsible, they won't ever feel at fault for cheating. It will always be the processes fault for not catching it.

IMO list mistakes should be treated with varying degrees of severity based on event size.

10 buck 3 round RTT? Make him fix it and move on unless it's very obvious that it was intentional, or its something gigantic.

2 day+ GT with high prize support? No one with an illegal list should walk out with anything. If you're good enough to get GT prize support, you're good enough to build a legal list, and there should be enough thought/practice going into the list in the weeks beforehand that you or your playtest buddies catch it. If it still makes it through, then the TO shouldn't feel any remorse for telling you "sorry dude, I gotta nullify your results and remove you from prize possibility. Please make sure your list is legal for future GT's."

I wouldn't have any issues with that. And I bet people who lost to him would be OK with it to.

I feel like there are two ways this could have gone, one being what happened, which benefits Aaron and caused considerable outrage among the community. The other would have been him penalized, being unable to win with an illegal list. While I'm sure many would sympathize with him, I dont think you'd have nearly the emotional response or negative feedback on a decision like that.

I'm wondering about the 17th person, the person that's looking in at the top 16; does he have any angst toward the TO etc. I mean hypothetically he might of had a chance to win the prize if Aaron was disqualified, bumping him to the top 16.

Adepticon TO and any other GT should have a concrete solution prior to their tourney, it should be a priority topic among them.

Well technically ally that would be number 19 since 17 and 18 got in due to drops.

 skkipper wrote:

GreyDragoon wrote:
Uh yeah, that's not my list. Not sure what the hell that is. Nice to see people are pulling things out of their butt.

http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Kenneth-Johnson-16th-Overall-Adepticon-2016.pdf

Seriously, before you're gonna try and be authoritative perhaps you might reach out to folks and check you have their list? It's not like whoever this tool is actually asked for my list during the tournament.

Further Edit: Just annoyed people think I'd actually have taken that. On a few levels. I don't begrudge BoK trying to get some info out there, but it's the height of simplicity to find out who I am and asking me. Preferably DURING the tournament. And if you haven't? Make sure the list is marked as speculative, please. Last thing I want to see are folks reaching out to me asking "wait did you actually take that?!" because somebody didn't even try remotely to do their homework.

Thanks Hulk and Target for the responses on this. Crazy talk!

You complain that wasn't your list yet don't post your list here that seems silly.

I have no obligation to repost my list, and if it means one less copy cat list out there, then I'm happy with the results. Any of my opponents could easily share my list as could the tournament if that was their perogative. But I'm not about to perpetuate netlisting if I can avoid it.

As for Blood of Kittens, considering he never saw my list, asked me directly for my list, asked my opponents for my list, or put any disclaimer that he hadn't actually seen my list and was just making it up.. Well honestly he should have known better. He has a thread about the top lists, mentions the issues with an illegal list in it, and puts my name against an incorrect (and not legal) list. I play more than enough tournaments that his action immediately had people reaching out to ask if I had done that. Nobody has the right to tie me up with that crap just because I don't care to repost my lists. It's my hobby too and someone tossing my name out there like that is a bunch of crap.

GreyDragoon wrote:

Spoiler:

As for Blood of Kittens, considering he never saw my list, asked me directly for my list, asked my opponents for my list, or put any disclaimer that he hadn't actually seen my list and was just making it up.. Well honestly he should have known better. He has a thread about the top lists, mentions the issues with an illegal list in it, and puts my name against an incorrect (and not legal) list. I play more than enough tournaments that his action immediately had people reaching out to ask if I had done that. Nobody has the right to tie me up with that crap just because I don't care to repost my lists. It's my hobby too and someone tossing my name out there like that is a bunch of crap.

GreyDragoon wrote:


I have no obligation to repost my list, and if it means one less copy cat list out there, then I'm happy with the results. Any of my opponents could easily share my list as could the tournament if that was their perogative. But I'm not about to perpetuate netlisting if I can avoid it.

As for Blood of Kittens, considering he never saw my list, asked me directly for my list, asked my opponents for my list, or put any disclaimer that he hadn't actually seen my list and was just making it up.. Well honestly he should have known better. He has a thread about the top lists, mentions the issues with an illegal list in it, and puts my name against an incorrect (and not legal) list. I play more than enough tournaments that his action immediately had people reaching out to ask if I had done that. Nobody has the right to tie me up with that crap just because I don't care to repost my lists. It's my hobby too and someone tossing my name out there like that is a bunch of crap.

Sounds like you are a Whiner who has his feelings hurt. Posting lists does nothing but shows you are not a chump but take your secret list to the grave and let the blood of kittens list posted be your list.

Edited by RiTides - Rule #1 on Dakka is Be Polite

Okay, GreyDragoon has made it clear he won't be posting his list, and that isn't the topic of this thread. Any further posts regarding that will be deleted as off-topic.

So, let's return to the topic of list errors at tournaments / methods to avoid / etc. Thanks

 easysauce wrote:

GreyDragoon wrote:

Spoiler:

As for Blood of Kittens, considering he never saw my list, asked me directly for my list, asked my opponents for my list, or put any disclaimer that he hadn't actually seen my list and was just making it up.. Well honestly he should have known better. He has a thread about the top lists, mentions the issues with an illegal list in it, and puts my name against an incorrect (and not legal) list. I play more than enough tournaments that his action immediately had people reaching out to ask if I had done that. Nobody has the right to tie me up with that crap just because I don't care to repost my lists. It's my hobby too and someone tossing my name out there like that is a bunch of crap.

I feel for you Aaron and agree you are not obliged to make your list known to anyone who isn't across a table from you.

Nick Hayden (AKA tasty taste) the author of BOK has a long standing bad reputation for not fact checking and out right lying on his blog with no care to the personal ramifications this has in the real world on the people he has libeled. (just type "tasty taste liar" into google there is more then enough well known people calling him out on his unethical practices)

Mods should be issuing a permanent ban to his avatar for this kind of activity due to the repetitive nature and real world consequences it has had on players, organizers, ect and their reputations over the years. Especially since he has often used this site to promote his own and I don't think dakka should be supporting this kind of thing.

All I can say is don't let him or those who foolishly believe anything he says get you down.

Much appreciated.

Oh and I'm Kenny. Not Aaron

Being a bit more on point, I was supposed to be Aaron's first opponent on day2. And if I can suggest anything to others going to tournaments and worried about this sort of thing - I would just remind you that at the end of the day TO decisions are final. So I came in after having read the list and having some thoughts aired to me about it, I simply confirmed it was legal with the TOs, and that was it. As far as I was concerned, we had a match to play and anything could happen/go wrong for either of us. So game on. You really do have to be willing to simply man up and play even when you think a call is incorrect. And hell, you paid for it. So do your best to have some fun.

As far as what could have been done differently, if at all, I would suggest that at the end of day 1 a much more indepth list turn in and review would have been smart of the top 24. Because as people have pointed out, things do slip by. my 2 cents. But other than that I thought they handled things well in general, and while as a competitor I may have wanted a different call, as a person I completely understand how going back on a decision made pre-tournament to disqualify a top 16 list the night before would be ridiculous. The call had already been made at that point, have to live with it.

I think thats a good point GreyDragoon. At the end of the day, this thread is probably making a bigger deal out of the issue than it actually was/is.

Professional athletes go through the same thing. At times theres a blatant bad call and they have to play on. And those can result in lots of real $$ being handed out for winning.

I don't understand why he was able to continue playing for the top prize. I understand accidents happen, but ignorance isn't a legitimate defense. As someone else said, own up to the error and drop out.

Putting all the responsibility on the TO to fact check lists on top of their responsibilities is crap though. They have enough on their plate, it's much easier to make each player responsible for their own list.

I think each player should have to have at least enough copies to hand to each opponent and the judges, no excuses. Then, while the tournament is live publicly share all lists online.

If someone is discovered in error during the event, turn all their previous wins to loses and give their opponents the wins and allow them to correct the issue if possible, if not, disqualification.

If someone is found with an illegal list after the event, strip them of the any titles/awards and give the title to the runner up.

This will demonstrate that there is a zero tolerance for illegal lists. Army lists are the one thing we have the most time, reflection and control over to be sure they are accurate. In-game rules errors are forgivable after the fact unless it's obvious the intent was malicious, but how can anyone be OK with allowing illegal lists no matter what size the error. Now your setting a president. How many points next time? As someone else demonstrated earlier as well sometimes that 1 point is part of a min detachments requirements, so they are really getting much more then a krack grenade or pistol.

Finally, it blows my mind that people think this is unfair to the individual while ignoring all the individuals they wronged to get to the top. It also reflects poorly on the event, since not only was the prize tainted, but people feel like there is no ramification for the actions that caused the problem.

If real consequences exist, list issues will be MUCH less likely to occur.

Proactive measures are great, but that shouldn't eliminate reactive consequences. I didn't attend this tournament but had I been one of his opponents I would be livid when I found out he was still allowed to play for the crown, not because I thought I deserved to win but because I'd KNOW he didn't deserve to win. So after all that effort and all the people that made this tournament happen the result was bollixed.

At the end of the day I hope the lack of real consequences doesn't ruin a players reputation or the reputation of one of the countries premier events.

Just my 2 cents anyway.

You know he had to play his last two games (so against the very top of the competition) without the unit right - so down 120 points or similar? That's not no consequences - it's pretty crazy that he could pull out the win despite that.

He also gave up the prize and didn't receive points for the win, if I'm not mistaken.