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 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.

Yeah but the virus bombing of battle brothers is far more atrocious, to the loyalists, its was as if their own family had betrayed them, not just some enemy that was out to kill them, but people they trusted with their lives.

So its a wee bit more horrible then what the Big E has done, that said, the Big E has done some shady gak.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.

Yes... big E reprimanded Lorgar for not being speedy enough in his conquests. Not all conquests need be blood-drenched war-fighting affairs; I imagine some of the long-lost human colonies would be grateful to see more humans. A good general does not have to be 'bloodthirsty' but he also cannot spend all of his time building architectural masterpieces of worship to someone who explicitly forbids worshipping him.

I honestly think Lorgar overreacted. The Emperor told him to be an atheist, and he decided not to be, because 'reasons'... and then decided that submitting the future of humanity to dark, alien gods was a preferable alternative to atheism.

Really lorgar? Why ya' gotta' be like that?

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.

Yeah but the virus bombing of battle brothers is far more atrocious, to the loyalists, its was as if their own family had betrayed them, not just some enemy that was out to kill them, but people they trusted with their lives.

So its a wee bit more horrible then what the Big E has done, that said, the Big E has done some shady gak.

The Emperor created the Thunder Warriors as disposable warriors and turned on them and killed them all when their usefulness had expired. They were not disloyal.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.

Yes... big E reprimanded Lorgar for not being speedy enough in his conquests. Not all conquests need be blood-drenched war-fighting affairs; I imagine some of the long-lost human colonies would be grateful to see more humans. A good general does not have to be 'bloodthirsty' but he also cannot spend all of his time building architectural masterpieces of worship to someone who explicitly forbids worshipping him.

I honestly think Lorgar overreacted. The Emperor told him to be an atheist, and he decided not to be, because 'reasons'... and then decided that submitting the future of humanity to dark, alien gods was a preferable alternative to atheism.

Really lorgar? Why ya' gotta' be like that?

Lorgar sought the truth and found it. The Imperial Truth was a lie from the beginning. A useful lie, but a lie nonetheless.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.

Yeah but the virus bombing of battle brothers is far more atrocious, to the loyalists, its was as if their own family had betrayed them, not just some enemy that was out to kill them, but people they trusted with their lives.

So its a wee bit more horrible then what the Big E has done, that said, the Big E has done some shady gak.

The Emperor created the Thunder Warriors as disposable warriors and turned on them and killed them all when their usefulness had expired. They were not disloyal.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.

Yes... big E reprimanded Lorgar for not being speedy enough in his conquests. Not all conquests need be blood-drenched war-fighting affairs; I imagine some of the long-lost human colonies would be grateful to see more humans. A good general does not have to be 'bloodthirsty' but he also cannot spend all of his time building architectural masterpieces of worship to someone who explicitly forbids worshipping him.

I honestly think Lorgar overreacted. The Emperor told him to be an atheist, and he decided not to be, because 'reasons'... and then decided that submitting the future of humanity to dark, alien gods was a preferable alternative to atheism.

Really lorgar? Why ya' gotta' be like that?

Lorgar sought the truth and found it. The Imperial Truth was a lie from the beginning. A useful lie, but a lie nonetheless.

No it wasn't. The Chaos gods aren't gods in the strictest sense of the words; merely powerful warp-entities. Humanity co-existed with them for millennia without having a god.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

He's not developing them beyond anything that his new, best band of Mary Sue super soldiers "we didn nothing wrong, no siree". There's a difference between poorly explaining the actions of a Chaos worshipping genocidal maniac and bolter porn (which I never liked). Chaos has always been written as pure evil, which corrupts the souls of men, weak men. You don't need any other reason, because there are none. Horus, Abaddon and other CSM/Renegades rebeled because they've got seduced with power, end of story. There is nothing to add here really, and trying to make them look sympathetic is like trying to exucse the actions of real world genocidal dictators. You can't and in the end, they will still remain just that - monsters.

Maybe that's what doesn't feel "right" about Talon of Horus, despite it being an awesome novel. I get that "you're never the bad guy in your own story" but reading ToH and even some of the HH novels, it almost makes it out like the Emperor really is the bad guy and that he had something going on that would have been really bad, just due to the Heresy he never got a chance to do it. ToH does make Abaddon and the Black Legion out to be not so much good guys but decidedly "anti-hero" in their approach. Like, you get the impression that Abaddon is not in any way, shape or form a nice person, but his reasons for wanting to unify the Traitor Legions goes from being a power-mad, genocidal despot to more "The Imperium used us as threw us away, they aren't worthy of the legacy we built for them" which doesn't suit because as you said, Chaos has always been pure evil and corrupting; the only motive needed was either revenge for losing the Heresy or simply "I want the world on a platter". It didn't need this sympathetic undertones that maybe, just maybe, he's right. There were already legions that had some inkling of that as their backstory; Iron Warriors spring to mind where they were literally treated like gak by everyone else and used as little more than fodder themselves, and it made them bitter and twisted and now they are cruel for cruelty's sake but also because they were tempered in it.

I mean it's still a good novel, but I can't get past this idea that it's trying to justify Chaos as something other than people who have literally sold their souls to the devil in exchange for power.

Maybe it's because I started in third, but this is what csm have always been for me. In their minds, they essentially created the imperium. The imperium is built on their blood. I'm sure the lord solar had nothing to do with that but that's not he point lol.
And all the primarchs were equals, brothers, and suddenly ye old emps let's them drop like a hot potatoe and elevates horus above all others and yet doesn't even tell him what's going on. They were right to be mad at that. They were created for conquest and looking at how most of them immediately saw the emperor as their long lost father figure, they imagined to fight side by side with him. Not as his lackeys and most certainly not at the command of ordinary humans.
Then throw in some word bearers whom emps denied them that which fulfills them. It's in their geneseed, they are driven to worship something. And what could be more worthy of worship than actual gods. Gods who are quite literally the truth.. And they do not lie. So naturally the word bearers would be drawn to them, regardless of the nature of what they do. Fast forward to horus getting tricked into receiving visions of the future.
In which it looks like the emps is full of bolony, being venerated as a god among side a few other primarchs and yet not him. So he came to the conclusion that the emperor was basically trying to get rid of him, his favoured son. After all the sacrifice and work he and he's brothers did. They were mere tools to be used by the emperor. If that doesn't feel like betrayal I don't know what would.
Plus I always had the impression that the primarchs were rather moody. They seem to have strong emotions, but never learned to work with them through all the conquering in addition to having a tendency to take everything to extremes. So instead of going to the emperor and asking what the feth this was all about, they went full table flip mode.

Following that, Magnus was betrayed by the emperor as well. He tried to warn him and help him, with tzeentch offering him the help he needed to contact the emperor but instead he flipped him the bird and sent the wolves to destroy him ( at least that's what it would have looked like to him.) . Had he told Magnus what he was doing, the webway might not have been destroyed.
The alpha legion had to endure mockery and scorn from day one, despite their successes. And I like to think they aided horus in order to stop the gods.
The night lords were always murderers first, no surprise there that they went traitor. Same with Angron would was never quite right in the head after the implants.
The emperors children were driven to slaanesh much like the word bearers. Their geneseed set them up for this path once in contact with the corrupting nature of chaos.
I mean, all the legions that fell to a god would naturally do as their god demands. Gods who have no concept of morality. I don't think they're evil for evil's sake, but they are single minded. Slaanesh demands excess and depravity and so they do it for the sake of it. They don't really have a mind of their own. And the gods don't really do these things to be evil either. They do what they were born to do, they don't know any better. Like slaanesh basically IS greed and all that, while at the same time feeding on it. I'm not sure the gods are sentient in the same way we are.

Either way, the undivided legions all have some reason or another to feel betrayed by the emperor and the corrupting influence of chaos then does it's thing over the millenia to pervert that reasoning and forcing them into situations where sacrificing a planet or two is the only course of action.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.

Yes... big E reprimanded Lorgar for not being speedy enough in his conquests. Not all conquests need be blood-drenched war-fighting affairs; I imagine some of the long-lost human colonies would be grateful to see more humans. A good general does not have to be 'bloodthirsty' but he also cannot spend all of his time building architectural masterpieces of worship to someone who explicitly forbids worshipping him.

I honestly think Lorgar overreacted. The Emperor told him to be an atheist, and he decided not to be, because 'reasons'... and then decided that submitting the future of humanity to dark, alien gods was a preferable alternative to atheism.

Really lorgar? Why ya' gotta' be like that?

The problem was, the Emperor overlooked his worship for a while.. And then chastised him so harshly that even the Ultramarines thought it harsh by burning his grandest city, forcing him to kneel in the ruins to him, Malcador, and Gulliman.

Plus I always had the impression that the primarchs were rather moody. They seem to have strong emotions, but never learned to work with them through all the conquering in addition to having a tendency to take everything to extremes. So instead of going to the emperor and asking what the feth this was all about, they went full table flip mode.

Because the Emperor's major problems could be summed up as the Emperor is definitely not a people person, thinking everyone would be like him and he tends to have a bit of a problem if they aren't, when they DID ask him he tended to blow them off or ask why aren't they doing what he told them to do.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

Hey now there was a reason for virus-bombing Istvaan III; it was to wipe out the people who weren't expected to side with Horus in his rebellion. He purposely sent people who were "troublemakers" to Istvaan to wipe them out.

I do feel the Heresy novels explain more than just "Haha I am evil!", it gives them personality. I just find that ADB went a bit too far with Abaddon in Talon of Horus to make him out as an anti-hero instead of being a villain. One can be a villain and have good motives and goals without becoming sympathetic to the reader to where you start to think he's not that bad. I feel Chaos still needs to be decidedly in the "evil" category, but they can have their motives. Like what attracts me to the Iron Warriors is their fluff, that they were constantly sent to the hardest, most unforgiving places, given hardly any credit, and while other Primarchs were all like "Hell no you aren't splitting up my legion" the IW were all "Okay, an order is an order" along with Perturabo being a megalomanical genius who told his own guys to decimate their ranks not because their record was poor, but because they were viewed as workhorses. That's pretty three-dimensional to me, how they are cold and calculating and see themselves as, to paraphrase the 3rd edition Index Astartes: "Titans of old who are loose in the world, knowing that nothing can stop them".

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

Hey now there was a reason for virus-bombing Istvaan III; it was to wipe out the people who weren't expected to side with Horus in his rebellion. He purposely sent people who were "troublemakers" to Istvaan to wipe them out.

I do feel the Heresy novels explain more than just "Haha I am evil!", it gives them personality. I just find that ADB went a bit too far with Abaddon in Talon of Horus to make him out as an anti-hero instead of being a villain. One can be a villain and have good motives and goals without becoming sympathetic to the reader to where you start to think he's not that bad. I feel Chaos still needs to be decidedly in the "evil" category, but they can have their motives. Like what attracts me to the Iron Warriors is their fluff, that they were constantly sent to the hardest, most unforgiving places, given hardly any credit, and while other Primarchs were all like "Hell no you aren't splitting up my legion" the IW were all "Okay, an order is an order" along with Perturabo being a megalomanical genius who told his own guys to decimate their ranks not because their record was poor, but because they were viewed as workhorses. That's pretty three-dimensional to me, how they are cold and calculating and see themselves as, to paraphrase the 3rd edition Index Astartes: "Titans of old who are loose in the world, knowing that nothing can stop them".

Agreed. Horus was evil, narcissistic, and ambitious, but he didn't bomb the planet for no reason. He did it to expressly get rid of those who stood in his way, like Logan.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.

Yes... big E reprimanded Lorgar for not being speedy enough in his conquests. Not all conquests need be blood-drenched war-fighting affairs; I imagine some of the long-lost human colonies would be grateful to see more humans. A good general does not have to be 'bloodthirsty' but he also cannot spend all of his time building architectural masterpieces of worship to someone who explicitly forbids worshipping him.

I honestly think Lorgar overreacted. The Emperor told him to be an atheist, and he decided not to be, because 'reasons'... and then decided that submitting the future of humanity to dark, alien gods was a preferable alternative to atheism.

Really lorgar? Why ya' gotta' be like that?

The problem was, the Emperor overlooked his worship for a while.. And then chastised him so harshly that even the Ultramarines thought it harsh by burning his grandest city, forcing him to kneel in the ruins to him, Malcador, and Gulliman.

I understand that he was chastised harshly... but that has nothing to do. His instructions were to stop worshipping Gods, and instead of stopping he went right on and found powerful aliens, built them up to be gods, and then started worshipping them. He was so desperate for a deity he nearly doomed humankind in his quest for "truth" which is subjective anyways in this case. (This case being spirituality, rather than philosophy or reality).

Honestly.. I think Abbadon's a chump because he -thinks- he's not serving the chaos gods, but the joke's on him. No one benefits from the chaos gods that ultimately doesn't end up serving their ends, whether intentionally or not. Also, his motivations are stupid just like most of the childish motivations in 40k. "whhhaaaaa, my traitor daddy got killed by the empire loyalists, I'm going to kill everybody everywhere because of that." As far as him being successful or not, well, as others have stated, the writers seem to have shifted his crusades from being failed attempts to end the empire to instead being successful in their real goals of advancing his power. I'm fine with that answer.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes. That's basically how Chaos has been for like... ever. AFAIK even the vaunted 3.5 book was like "Many of them have forgotten who they were, but they have not forgotten their sworn vengeance upon the Imperium!" which sounds like the tagline for a B movie lol.

The thing to remember though is that a lot of these guys turned against the Emperor out of loyalty to their primarch. And now they're damned. What's that like? To lose a great civil war and be forced to flee into hell? To try to survive? To feel your body changing and mutating? And through it all to one day hope for vengeance? There's more potential there that could be explored once you get past the "we do it for the evulz hurr."

They turned out of loyalty to their primarch.... who allied with another primarch... who virus-bombed a planet for no reason. The Chaos primarchs did blatantly evil things during the Heresy, and if your loyal to the point of blindness... well, that's on you, I suppose.

Also, it's not like the Primarchs had good reasons to turn.

He didn't virus bomb a planet for no reason. He virus bombed a planet to eliminate his enemies. Because it was war. And in war people die. It's not like Imperium didn't do equally horrible things during the Great Crusade. Hell, the Emperor reprimanded a primarch for not being bloodthirsty enough. And that's what ultimately set in motion the events that caused the Heresy.

Yes... big E reprimanded Lorgar for not being speedy enough in his conquests. Not all conquests need be blood-drenched war-fighting affairs; I imagine some of the long-lost human colonies would be grateful to see more humans. A good general does not have to be 'bloodthirsty' but he also cannot spend all of his time building architectural masterpieces of worship to someone who explicitly forbids worshipping him.

I honestly think Lorgar overreacted. The Emperor told him to be an atheist, and he decided not to be, because 'reasons'... and then decided that submitting the future of humanity to dark, alien gods was a preferable alternative to atheism.

Really lorgar? Why ya' gotta' be like that?

The problem was, the Emperor overlooked his worship for a while.. And then chastised him so harshly that even the Ultramarines thought it harsh by burning his grandest city, forcing him to kneel in the ruins to him, Malcador, and Gulliman.

I understand that he was chastised harshly... but that has nothing to do. His instructions were to stop worshipping Gods, and instead of stopping he went right on and found powerful aliens, built them up to be gods, and then started worshipping them. He was so desperate for a deity he nearly doomed humankind in his quest for "truth" which is subjective anyways in this case. (This case being spirituality, rather than philosophy or reality).

What I find most interesting about Lorgar is that the Imperium eventually became what he wanted, and worshiped the Emperor as a god. I did find it really interesting that the Emperor was basically an atheist and wanted science over religion, but then the cult formed and when Euphrati Keeler became a 'saint" it kind of pushed worshiping him instead. What makes it the most interesting is that clearly there was something divine at work, so was the Emperor just trying to deny the fact he was a god?

Isn't the imperial faith based on something he wrote?

Roknar wrote:
Isn't the imperial faith based on something he wrote?

I don't remember. Probably taken from it, but I doubt officially because that would not suit well to know the Imperial Creed is based on the works of a heretic. I know that in the first three novels, it's basically a cult following that isn't allowed to officially be recognized, until Euphrati Keeler fights off a daemon with "faith" and becomes considered a saint, then it sort of spreads.

So what would it take to have the CSM and Abbadon be taken more seriously? An advance in the plot in which he does actually accomplish something?

A box game (similar to Deathwatch) but include a new Abby and have a driven plot to reinvent the man?

 Field_Mouse wrote:
So what would it take to have the CSM and Abbadon be taken more seriously? An advance in the plot in which he does actually accomplish something?

A box game (similar to Deathwatch) but include a new Abby and have a driven plot to reinvent the man?

Stop retconning the fluff, advance the fluff, have him destroy something significant and give him a reason to be feared (destroy a homeworld or assault the gates of Terra, something)

Actually break Cadia in two.

Its been said earlier in the thread, by a wise man, that Abby has some SERIOUS bad guy decay. I think its about time to retire him and replace him with a more credible threat. After the 13th crusade of course.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I understand that he was chastised harshly... but that has nothing to do. His instructions were to stop worshipping Gods, and instead of stopping he went right on and found powerful aliens, built them up to be gods, and then started worshipping them. He was so desperate for a deity he nearly doomed humankind in his quest for "truth" which is subjective anyways in this case. (This case being spirituality, rather than philosophy or reality).

The Chaos gods are not xenos as the Emperor falsely claimed. They are reflections of humanity. The gods don't make the galaxy this way, we do.

In an honest response as well...wasn't Archaon technically a moustache twirling villain too, right up until the End Times? I mean, he's had small successes, but always got beaten back until he finally won because GW decided he needed to. Of course, fantasy Chaos has always trumped 40k chaos in GW's eyes.

WayneTheGame wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Isn't the imperial faith based on something he wrote?

I don't remember. Probably taken from it, but I doubt officially because that would not suit well to know the Imperial Creed is based on the works of a heretic. I know that in the first three novels, it's basically a cult following that isn't allowed to officially be recognized, until Euphrati Keeler fights off a daemon with "faith" and becomes considered a saint, then it sort of spreads.

How many people even know of lorgar though? Let alone some creed he supposedly wrote. That creed must have been circulating long before before the horus heresy had any effect on your average citizen.
I could have this all wrong but I feel like that knowledge was spreading even before he got reprimanded by the emperor. I doubt setting one city on fire would be enough to rid the imperium of his doctrines.
They have probably deviated from whatever he initally wrote down, so I'm not sure it would even be associated to him.

I also like to entertain the thought that those writings are what is keeping the imperium running these days. To the point that all this worship might yet end up turning him into another chaos god. The irony.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
In an honest response as well...wasn't Archaon technically a moustache twirling villain too, right up until the End Times? I mean, he's had small successes, but always got beaten back until he finally won because GW decided he needed to. Of course, fantasy Chaos has always trumped 40k chaos in GW's eyes.

I pointed out that Archaon was in the same boat, but because he was a relatively new character in the canon this wasn't as bad for him. Abaddon was already a decorated general before the Heresy then spent 10k years more or less having his ass handed to him. In addition, I don't think Archaon ever screwed up twice in the same way, while Abaddon keeps doing the same thing and gets rebutted each time.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I understand that he was chastised harshly... but that has nothing to do. His instructions were to stop worshipping Gods, and instead of stopping he went right on and found powerful aliens, built them up to be gods, and then started worshipping them. He was so desperate for a deity he nearly doomed humankind in his quest for "truth" which is subjective anyways in this case. (This case being spirituality, rather than philosophy or reality).

The Chaos gods are not xenos as the Emperor falsely claimed. They are reflections of humanity. The gods don't make the galaxy this way, we do.

They're a reflection of every living thing in the galaxy, not just humanity. And they're not all a reflection of humanity, either, as there are soulless humans. Chaos are life in the warp, perhaps shaped and evolved by the emotions of all sentience (not just humans) in the Milky Way, but life on its own. They're not reflections of us, not completely. Our negative sides, maybe. But there's no Chaos god of compassion, love, empathy, and kindness - which are just as significant in the sphere of human existence as hatred, despair, hope, and lust.

Hey! Papa nurgle spreads plenty of love .
I don't remember where I read it, but I believe that all emotions have some kind of entity associated with them, they're just not as strong as the big four.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I understand that he was chastised harshly... but that has nothing to do. His instructions were to stop worshipping Gods, and instead of stopping he went right on and found powerful aliens, built them up to be gods, and then started worshipping them. He was so desperate for a deity he nearly doomed humankind in his quest for "truth" which is subjective anyways in this case. (This case being spirituality, rather than philosophy or reality).

The Chaos gods are not xenos as the Emperor falsely claimed. They are reflections of humanity. The gods don't make the galaxy this way, we do.

They're a reflection of every living thing in the galaxy, not just humanity. And they're not all a reflection of humanity, either, as there are soulless humans. Chaos are life in the warp, perhaps shaped and evolved by the emotions of all sentience (not just humans) in the Milky Way, but life on its own. They're not reflections of us, not completely. Our negative sides, maybe. But there's no Chaos god of compassion, love, empathy, and kindness - which are just as significant in the sphere of human existence as hatred, despair, hope, and lust.

Considering that Soulless humans were originally created by old Necron's (3rd edition) introducing things into them so that they could use them to create monsters to fight and help destroy the warp itself.. I don't think they count in general.

Roknar wrote:
Gods who are quite literally the truth.. And they do not lie.

Gods who do not lie? Are we talking about Tzeentch here?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
But there's no Chaos god of compassion, love, empathy, and kindness - which are just as significant in the sphere of human existence as hatred, despair, hope, and lust.

Not in 40k they're not. If they were, the galaxy wouldn't be the horrible crapsack that we all know and love.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Gods who are quite literally the truth.. And they do not lie.

Gods who do not lie? Are we talking about Tzeentch here?

The irony is that nothing the Chaos gods showed Horus was a lie. A misleading, sefl-fulfilling prophecy, yes. But not a lie.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Gods who are quite literally the truth.. And they do not lie.

Gods who do not lie? Are we talking about Tzeentch here?

Tzeentch never ever lies!
*Lies...*

 Ankhalagon wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Gods who are quite literally the truth.. And they do not lie.

Gods who do not lie? Are we talking about Tzeentch here?

Tzeentch never ever lies!
*Lies...*

His lies are truth. Only the truth is a lie.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:

 Xathrodox86 wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

He's not developing them beyond anything that his new, best band of Mary Sue super soldiers "we didn nothing wrong, no siree". There's a difference between poorly explaining the actions of a Chaos worshipping genocidal maniac and bolter porn (which I never liked). Chaos has always been written as pure evil, which corrupts the souls of men, weak men. You don't need any other reason, because there are none. Horus, Abaddon and other CSM/Renegades rebeled because they've got seduced with power, end of story. There is nothing to add here really, and trying to make them look sympathetic is like trying to exucse the actions of real world genocidal dictators. You can't and in the end, they will still remain just that - monsters.

Maybe that's what doesn't feel "right" about Talon of Horus, despite it being an awesome novel. I get that "you're never the bad guy in your own story" but reading ToH and even some of the HH novels, it almost makes it out like the Emperor really is the bad guy and that he had something going on that would have been really bad, just due to the Heresy he never got a chance to do it. ToH does make Abaddon and the Black Legion out to be not so much good guys but decidedly "anti-hero" in their approach. Like, you get the impression that Abaddon is not in any way, shape or form a nice person, but his reasons for wanting to unify the Traitor Legions goes from being a power-mad, genocidal despot to more "The Imperium used us as threw us away, they aren't worthy of the legacy we built for them" which doesn't suit because as you said, Chaos has always been pure evil and corrupting; the only motive needed was either revenge for losing the Heresy or simply "I want the world on a platter". It didn't need this sympathetic undertones that maybe, just maybe, he's right. There were already legions that had some inkling of that as their backstory; Iron Warriors spring to mind where they were literally treated like gak by everyone else and used as little more than fodder themselves, and it made them bitter and twisted and now they are cruel for cruelty's sake but also because they were tempered in it.

I mean it's still a good novel, but I can't get past this idea that it's trying to justify Chaos as something other than people who have literally sold their souls to the devil in exchange for power.

Because evil people never have motivations other than being evil for evil's sake because they're evil, right?

I don't think he said that. He said that Chaos worshippers are evil for evil's sake, because chaos has corrupted them. Not that all people ever are evil for evil's sake. The Tau, for example, earnestly believe what they are doing is good.

And I'm saying that's stupid fluff. That's literally Saturday morning cartoon villian levels of stupid.

You've just described Chaos in 40K from the past 4 editions. They were never anything else and the decision to suddendly change them into a bunch of relatable characters is simply funny. The Emperor was a monster and a liar, but at least he didn't wanted to plunge the material universe into hell.

The Emperor was a monster and a liar, but at least he didn't wanted to plunge the material universe into hell

For humanity anyways, for any sort of Xenos.. Yeah.

But it's why I'm glad that thanks to Black Crusade (RPG books) and others are starting to branch Chaos back to something beyond Saturday Morning Cartoon Evil.