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Abaddon isn't anywhere near as powerful as horus or the emperor was. From what I understand they were essentially demigods among demi gods. However, judging by the fluff in traitors hate, Abaddon might be trying to achieve the same level of power that they had right now.

 Ernestas wrote:
...It is like saying that squats is still official part of w40k universe because ''hey man, nothing is cannon''...

But Squats are still official. They've been renamed to 'Demiurg', appeared in Battlefleet Gothic as a Tau client race, and been mentioned in the Horus Heresy novels.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
...It is like saying that squats is still official part of w40k universe because ''hey man, nothing is cannon''...

But Squats are still official. They've been renamed to 'Demiurg', appeared in Battlefleet Gothic as a Tau client race, and been mentioned in the Horus Heresy novels.

That's actually not true. Squats still existed; they just are extinct.

Demiurg are an alien race. Squats were an abhuman race. Very different.

 Ernestas wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
He's a pawn of all the Ruinous Powers, not independent of them. Should he lose their collective favor, he'd be Spawn.

You see, I grew up with Relic portrayal of w40k and then it naturally was strenghtened in DoW2. Both of these games did an absolute justice to every race, portraying them in respectful and damn cool manner. This is how I grew to respect each individual race instead of looking it as a fluff made for lolz.

So, despite the claim in your OP, you actually have very little idea of what you're talking about, is that what you're saying? As there are several things Relic got "wrong" in the DoW series, when comparing it to previously-released information from GW.

Do realize, however, that there's no such thing as a "canon" to 40k. This setting doesn't work like pre-Disney Star Wars. There's no pyramid of "this is more canon than this". It's all rumors, myths, lies and half-truths from an in-universe perspective. The tales we get in Codices, BL books, White Dwarf, etc. are all things that are true. Or might be true. Or could be true. Or are made up out of whole cloth. Every individual fan is free to take or leave the aspects of the setting that appeal to them the most/least and form their own version of the setting.

Nope. I told you that I grew up on DoW series. It is completely different than it being original setting without flaws. It means, that DoW gave me first impression of this world to which I fell in love with. It was a starting point rather than how it must be. In addition, while w40k universe is loose there are clear boundaries which GW set. You cannot just tell any bs and claim it is my lore. Same as with Abbadon, I never encountered him being incompetent and thus I wanted to ask from where it stems.

...Point of order on this one. The Eldar in Dawn of War are whiny idiots whose precognitive powers don't work on Space Marines and who spend their time getting wiped out while ranting about how the humans should just listen...after not trying to talk to them. The Relic portrayal does them no justice at all.

Nobody likes xenos.....

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
...It is like saying that squats is still official part of w40k universe because ''hey man, nothing is cannon''...

But Squats are still official. They've been renamed to 'Demiurg', appeared in Battlefleet Gothic as a Tau client race, and been mentioned in the Horus Heresy novels.

That's actually not true. Squats still existed; they just are extinct.

Demiurg are an alien race. Squats were an abhuman race. Very different.

Actually they brought squats back, they just don't have a homeworld or their own forces anymore, the 6th+ listed them as still active.

...Point of order on this one. The Eldar in Dawn of War are whiny idiots whose precognitive powers don't work on Space Marines and who spend their time getting wiped out while ranting about how the humans should just listen...after not trying to talk to them. The Relic portrayal does them no justice at all.

Nah, I think they got it down perfectly, tried to talk down the humans, didn't tell the humans anything important while still telling them to basically "go away, we better then you and know better then you."

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
...It is like saying that squats is still official part of w40k universe because ''hey man, nothing is cannon''...

But Squats are still official. They've been renamed to 'Demiurg', appeared in Battlefleet Gothic as a Tau client race, and been mentioned in the Horus Heresy novels.

That's actually not true. Squats still existed; they just are extinct.

Demiurg are an alien race. Squats were an abhuman race. Very different.

As far as I know the history of the Squats there isn't any reason they couldn't have had colonies out in the eastern fringe past where the Great Crusade got to that never encountered the Imperium. The fragments of lore given in BFG don't explicitly state whether the Demiurg are alien or abhuman, and the rest of the descriptions could easily be talking about the same faction. The technology (repurposed mining tools, engine technology beyond the Mechanicum's understanding, heavy use of automation) is another point of similarity.

That said this one doesn't actually have an official answer, and my 'wait, what if...' reading doesn't constitute canon. I know this is more likely a result of the Demiurg's start as a reboot of the Squat concept (statement from Jervis Johnson to the effect at http://web.archive.org/web/20060129002420/http://forums.specialist-games.com/epic/forum_b/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=2532&whichpage=3 (scroll down a bit)), but I like trying to find in-universe explanations for things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

...Point of order on this one. The Eldar in Dawn of War are whiny idiots whose precognitive powers don't work on Space Marines and who spend their time getting wiped out while ranting about how the humans should just listen...after not trying to talk to them. The Relic portrayal does them no justice at all.

Nah, I think they got it down perfectly, tried to talk down the humans, didn't tell the humans anything important while still telling them to basically "go away, we better then you and know better then you."

Eldar outside Dawn of War don't find it damaging to their egos to use other forces as pawns instead of committing troops to the field themselves (the way Idranel does in DoW2), don't put themselves in positions where their survival is completely dependent on the actions of humans (the way Taldeer does in the canon ending of Winter Assault), and don't hand victory to Chaos by whining (the way Macha does in the original game). The only DoW game that treats the Eldar with any semblance of fairness is Retribution (possibly because that's the one where there's a plot and the Eldar can be protagonists for it).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
...It is like saying that squats is still official part of w40k universe because ''hey man, nothing is cannon''...

But Squats are still official. They've been renamed to 'Demiurg', appeared in Battlefleet Gothic as a Tau client race, and been mentioned in the Horus Heresy novels.

That's actually not true. Squats still existed; they just are extinct.

Demiurg are an alien race. Squats were an abhuman race. Very different.

Also not true, Squats are listed in the BRB fluff section as sanctioned ab humans (not extinct).

Yeah, the Squat homeworlds were devoured, but this is a galaxy-spanning civilization we're talking about. Are we to believe that every single Squat in the galaxy was home for the holidays when the Tyranid arrived? I'd imagine there are still Squat Enclaves throughout the Imperium, but are so few and far between that the Squats, as an effective faction, are extinct.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, the Squat homeworlds were devoured, but this is a galaxy-spanning civilization we're talking about. Are we to believe that every single Squat in the galaxy was home for the holidays when the Tyranid arrived? I'd imagine there are still Squat Enclaves throughout the Imperium, but are so few and far between that the Squats, as an effective faction, are extinct.

Nah they jumped to an alternate universe and renamed themselves to the Forge-Fathers now...

 Ernestas wrote:

And I did responded in a fair manner

No, you really didn't. Make sure what you are posting is actually polite, so far you have been really toeing that line, which shouldn't be how you approach your general posting (or any posting).

To the thread in general, let's remember rule 1.

It's just a joke, OP. I don't think anyone actually takes the 40k memes seriously. Unless you think the fanbase seriously believes the Blood Ravens are a bunch of thieves as well.

Just take a few steps back and realize these is just a bunch of silly stories about a game who's sole purpose is to sell people $200 tanks the size of a shoe.


Abaddon will always be Failbaddon the Armless to me, though.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's just a joke, OP. I don't think anyone actually takes the 40k memes seriously. Unless you think the fanbase seriously believes the Blood Ravens are a bunch of thieves as well.

Just take a few steps back and realize these is just a bunch of silly stories about a game who's sole purpose is to sell people $200 tanks the size of a shoe.


Abaddon will always be Failbaddon the Armless to me, though.

I thought the blood ravens were a bunch of thieves :( *picks up shattered dreams*

Reavas wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It's just a joke, OP. I don't think anyone actually takes the 40k memes seriously. Unless you think the fanbase seriously believes the Blood Ravens are a bunch of thieves as well.

Just take a few steps back and realize these is just a bunch of silly stories about a game who's sole purpose is to sell people $200 tanks the size of a shoe.


Abaddon will always be Failbaddon the Armless to me, though.

I thought the blood ravens were a bunch of thieves :( *picks up shattered dreams*

The guys with their "Steehl Reihn?

Guess what: even people who aren't at all fans of the imperium don't take chaos seriously.

People don't not take yabbadabbadon and chaos seriously because they know how the setting works.

Gw is a company that likes to sell models. They don't like invalidating models for no reason. When you have a villain whose mustache twirling ambition is to DESTROY THE ENTIRE SETTING, until the game gets as poor selling as fantasy, it ain't gonna happen.

This is why 100% of the tension went out of death masque the second eldrad revealed that his plan would kill everyone in the imperium, and all the eldar Wraith models would be gone. From that point on, it didn't matter how stupidly out of character they'd have to make him act, you knew the rest of the book was going to be gw fellating a bolt gun.

Gws setting used to work because everything was grimdark and crappy. It didn't matter if the big bads didn't threaten the whole galaxy because the galaxy was basically a depressing piece of crap. With the shift to shiny heroes vs cartoon villains it's hard to get into it anymore.

I also never understood the hype about abbadon, Be'lakor has been puppeting him for his own gains for a very long time, and is in large part the reason he has even seen minor success. While abbadon's crusades never really made it to terra Be'lakor upstaged abbadon and single handedly launched a daemonic incursion on terra out if sheer spite a jelousy. He was obviously unsuccessful, due to his narrowmindedness and arrogance (such is the way of daemons) but if Be'lakor collected himself for even a short period and thought things through he could easily strike a strong blow against the imperium. But alas daemons are fickle and due to his emotional shortcomings that embody his very being its impossible for him to do such a thing.

I guess its part of why its important for champions of chaos to remain human, they arent pure unstable beings of emotion.

But yeah, in the long run abbadon isn't the most powerful being chaos has to offer, never has been. But he is the most organised, and when it comes to chaos, order is a hard thing to come by. So abbadon is somewhat important.

What everyone is describing is called Villain Decay.

Basically you introduce a bad guy and that bad guys is a bad ass. You show off his might and he is a real threat to the hero/es. The problem is the heroes have to win, so with each subsequent showing of the villain the threat he poses becomes less and less as he continually gets trounced.

Different properties have dealt with villain decay in various ways. You can replace the villain with a even bigger bad who he becomes a lacky for. (Anyone remember Jackie Chan Adventures? Remember how the big bad guy in the green suit eventually just became one of the mooks when the dragon spirit thing became the new big bad?)

Othertimes you can stave off villain decay by not having the villain actually loose. Xanatos from Gargoyles would place the heroes in situations where it didn't matter what they did he won. That TVTrope is called a Xanatos Gambit because he was the grand master of it.

Abbadon is some supposed bad ass of chaos who spent the last 10k years in the fluff and 30 years irl getting trounced every time he shows his face with no real consequence to anyone he is plotting against and nothing to really show for it. He has suffered the worst, most extreme version of villain decay. His actions need to have consequences to carry weight. They don't so he doesn't. He is like a episodic sit-com where at the end of the episode everything is restored to the status quo and ready for the next little story. After 12-13 episodes of him doing the same things with each time nobody is ever the worse for wear you just stop viewing him as anything more then a nuisance.

 Lance845 wrote:
What everyone is describing is called Villain Decay.

Basically you introduce a bad guy and that bad guys is a bad ass. You show off his might and he is a real threat to the hero/es. The problem is the heroes have to win, so with each subsequent showing of the villain the threat he poses becomes less and less as he continually gets trounced.

Different properties have dealt with villain decay in various ways. You can replace the villain with a even bigger bad who he becomes a lacky for. (Anyone remember Jackie Chan Adventures? Remember how the big bad guy in the green suit eventually just became one of the mooks when the dragon spirit thing became the new big bad?)

Othertimes you can stave off villain decay by not having the villain actually loose. Xanatos from Gargoyles would place the heroes in situations where it didn't matter what they did he won. That TVTrope is called a Xanatos Gambit because he was the grand master of it.

Abbadon is some supposed bad ass of chaos who spent the last 10k years in the fluff and 30 years irl getting trounced every time he shows his face with no real consequence to anyone he is plotting against and nothing to really show for it. He has suffered the worst, most extreme version of villain decay. His actions need to have consequences to carry weight. They don't so he doesn't. He is like a episodic sit-com where at the end of the episode everything is restored to the status quo and ready for the next little story. After 12-13 episodes of him doing the same things with each time nobody is ever the worse for wear you just stop viewing him as anything more then a nuisance.

Like I said, Abaddon is built up to be Sauron, and instead ends up Megatron or Cobra Commander as portrayed in the 80s cartoon, a bumbling fool who is supposed to be this super dangerous threat, but always gets defeated.

pm713 wrote:
He hasn't united Chaos, to my knowledge he hasn't killed any Primarchs and refusing to serve Chaos is no big deal. Almost all Eldar and Space Marines do that. Big whoop.

Not according to new books. In "Talon of Horus" he made all of the Daemon Primarchs to kneel before him, as well as being presented as a poor and misunderstood badass. ADB is pushing his "The Emperor was a jerk for trying to stop the four monstrous Gods who would destroy the whole universe" agenda down our throats so hard that it hurts. I even read somewhere on B&C that he initially wanted to be the one who writes about Rogal Dorn's death, and I can bet all of my money, that if he would have his wish granted, then Abby would be the one to stick his Talon up Dorn's backside.

Abaddon may be presented as a competent leader in some of 40K's media, but as long as Chaos in general will be described as a bunch of frothing loonies who say dumb things like "no good deed shall go unpunished", then good luck with making him look good. Also yes, Chaos is the de facto truth and winner of 40K, there's no arguing about that, but the fact that its victory will mean that the whole galaxy will be flooded in madness in death, really makes it hard to sympathise with them, even if "Grandaddy betrayed us wah wah wah".

I know, right?

God forbid Aaron Dembski-Bowden give a marginalized, one dimensional faction something as breathtakingly refreshing as a motive.

Having all that plot structure and character development shoved down my throat is so ridiculous. Why can't he get with the program and just write a couple hundred pages of vaguely homoerotic bolter porn?

Yeah that's part of the issue with playing a faction whose end goal is basically the destruction of everything else (see: Tyranids and Necrons), you can't really do much without killing everyone else. Compare that to Orks where you can have a group that just wants to pillage and burn and crump some 'eadz, but the end result can be a chunk of space they take over, without just obliterating the world. It's hard to win when you winning results in the end of the game, so you have a cartoony faction that can talk big and bad but can't actually do anything meaningful.

Fantasy chaos had the same problem, which is why AOS lore now is basically the heroic Stormcasts pushing back against the domain of Chaos and defeating them constantly to retake the world, which is nearly as lame because Chaos has to lose constantly since them winning is bad for everyone else.

I rather enjoyed Black Crusade's take on the Chaos Gods for pushing them a bit further out from the one dimensional role.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
He's a pawn of all the Ruinous Powers, not independent of them. Should he lose their collective favor, he'd be Spawn.

You see, I grew up with Relic portrayal of w40k and then it naturally was strenghtened in DoW2. Both of these games did an absolute justice to every race, portraying them in respectful and damn cool manner. This is how I grew to respect each individual race instead of looking it as a fluff made for lolz.

So, despite the claim in your OP, you actually have very little idea of what you're talking about, is that what you're saying? As there are several things Relic got "wrong" in the DoW series, when comparing it to previously-released information from GW.

Do realize, however, that there's no such thing as a "canon" to 40k. This setting doesn't work like pre-Disney Star Wars. There's no pyramid of "this is more canon than this". It's all rumors, myths, lies and half-truths from an in-universe perspective. The tales we get in Codices, BL books, White Dwarf, etc. are all things that are true. Or might be true. Or could be true. Or are made up out of whole cloth. Every individual fan is free to take or leave the aspects of the setting that appeal to them the most/least and form their own version of the setting.

Nope. I told you that I grew up on DoW series. It is completely different than it being original setting without flaws. It means, that DoW gave me first impression of this world to which I fell in love with. It was a starting point rather than how it must be. In addition, while w40k universe is loose there are clear boundaries which GW set. You cannot just tell any bs and claim it is my lore. Same as with Abbadon, I never encountered him being incompetent and thus I wanted to ask from where it stems.

...Point of order on this one. The Eldar in Dawn of War are whiny idiots whose precognitive powers don't work on Space Marines and who spend their time getting wiped out while ranting about how the humans should just listen...after not trying to talk to them. The Relic portrayal does them no justice at all.

And that is different then 99% of the eldar fluff how?

 Ernestas wrote:

I do realize that it might tickle a lot of fanboys in a wrong way or I might appear arrogant, but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns. I know that I'm right. I was forced to check wikis far too many times and I read far too much of w40k lore in order to know that I'm right in this.

Then you would be surprised to hear that Abbadon the Despoiler is actually Omegon in disguise. I sat next to Graham McNeil on a plane and I know I'm right. You can't tell me I'm wrong. That might make me appear arrogant, but don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

 kronk wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:

I do realize that it might tickle a lot of fanboys in a wrong way or I might appear arrogant, but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns. I know that I'm right. I was forced to check wikis far too many times and I read far too much of w40k lore in order to know that I'm right in this.

Then you would be surprised to hear that Abbadon the Despoiler is actually Omegon in disguise. I sat next to Graham McNeil on a plane and I know I'm right. You can't tell me I'm wrong. That might make me appear arrogant, but don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

Seems legit.

WayneTheGame wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:

I do realize that it might tickle a lot of fanboys in a wrong way or I might appear arrogant, but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns. I know that I'm right. I was forced to check wikis far too many times and I read far too much of w40k lore in order to know that I'm right in this.

Then you would be surprised to hear that Abbadon the Despoiler is actually Omegon in disguise. I sat next to Graham McNeil on a plane and I know I'm right. You can't tell me I'm wrong. That might make me appear arrogant, but don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

Seems legit.

The only way Abadabadabadoon could be in any way an actual threat.

 kronk wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:

I do realize that it might tickle a lot of fanboys in a wrong way or I might appear arrogant, but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns. I know that I'm right. I was forced to check wikis far too many times and I read far too much of w40k lore in order to know that I'm right in this.

Then you would be surprised to hear that Abbadon the Despoiler is actually Omegon in disguise. I sat next to Graham McNeil on a plane and I know I'm right. You can't tell me I'm wrong. That might make me appear arrogant, but don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

as usual, kronk brings back humour to a thread!


...wait, what you posted - it's just a prank, right?

 Vector Strike wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:

I do realize that it might tickle a lot of fanboys in a wrong way or I might appear arrogant, but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns. I know that I'm right. I was forced to check wikis far too many times and I read far too much of w40k lore in order to know that I'm right in this.

Then you would be surprised to hear that Abbadon the Despoiler is actually Omegon in disguise. I sat next to Graham McNeil on a plane and I know I'm right. You can't tell me I'm wrong. That might make me appear arrogant, but don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

as usual, kronk brings back humour to a thread!


...wait, what you posted - it's just a prank, right?

What humor? Kronk clearly got the word straight from the dragon's mouth!

Because he is a crappy bad guy, his whole character is living in the shadow of the greater evil, and trying to live up to that but failing every single time.

He is akin to cobra commander.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:

 Ernestas wrote:

I do realize that it might tickle a lot of fanboys in a wrong way or I might appear arrogant, but I'm way beyond such mortal concerns. I know that I'm right. I was forced to check wikis far too many times and I read far too much of w40k lore in order to know that I'm right in this.

Then you would be surprised to hear that Abbadon the Despoiler is actually Omegon in disguise. I sat next to Graham McNeil on a plane and I know I'm right. You can't tell me I'm wrong. That might make me appear arrogant, but don't hate me because I'm beautiful.

Kronk strikes again!

But really Abbadon has always been the mustache twirly villain, hell if it was not for his terminator armor, and the fact he got assaulting for a month straight, Lokan would have taken him in one on one combat. Abbadon is just a pawn for the Chaos gods, he has not rallied them, but rather at least got them all the bless him as a champion.

 mrhappyface wrote:

^This.

Originally the black crusades were all failed attempts to attack the imperium, then GW realised that their biggest bad guy had never actually accomplished anything so they changed the black crusades to make it seem as though Abaddon succeeded in finding a relic or testing the imperiums defences.

It doesn't help, that when a black crusade finally wins due to the playerbase, despite all promises, GW despites to go *LALALALA NEVER HAPPENED!* then retcon as if the 13th black crusade never happened!

The bad guy finally win a major campaign and actually get somewhere to further the plot and GW goes, "nope cos Terr'uh".