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Sarigar wrote:
Now the app is updated.

Spoiler:

I know it is not the most efficient but will give this a try this weekend.

The Librarian in Terminator armor with 10 DW Terminators has me intrigued how it may fare on the tabletop.

There are three units which can utilize Vow, which may be too few. Need to play and feel it out. This list is also a mix of what is already painted and not requiring a lot of work to get this on the tabletop (IE not the most efficent).

Inner Circle v1 (1995 points)

Space Marines
Dark Angels
Strike Force (2000 points)
Inner Circle Task Force


CHARACTERS

Azrael (105 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Lion’s Wrath
1x The Lion Helm
1x The Sword of Secrets

Ezekiel (75 points)
• 1x Book of Salvation
1x Mind Wipe
1x The Deliverer
1x Traitor’s Bane

Librarian in Terminator Armour (105 points)
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Force weapon
1x Smite
• Enhancement: Deathwing Assault

Lieutenant with Combi-weapon (70 points)
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Paired combat blades


OTHER DATASHEETS

Deathwing Terminator Squad (380 points)
• 1x Deathwing Sergeant
• 1x Power weapon
1x Storm bolter
• 9x Deathwing Terminator
• 2x Chainfist
2x Cyclone missile launcher
7x Power fist
9x Storm bolter

Drop Pod (70 points)
• 1x Storm bolter

Hellblaster Squad (250 points)
• 1x Hellblaster Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma incinerator
• 9x Hellblaster
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
9x Plasma incinerator

Inceptor Squad (130 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Assault bolters
1x Close combat weapon
• 2x Inceptor
• 2x Assault bolters
2x Close combat weapon

Inceptor Squad (260 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma exterminators
• 5x Inceptor
• 5x Close combat weapon
5x Plasma exterminators

Inceptor Squad (260 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma exterminators
• 5x Inceptor
• 5x Close combat weapon
5x Plasma exterminators

Infernus Squad (160 points)
• 1x Infernus Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Pyreblaster
• 9x Infernus Marine
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
9x Pyreblaster

Scout Squad (65 points)
• 1x Scout Sergeant
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
• 4x Scout
• 2x Astartes shotgun
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Scout sniper rifle

Scout Squad (65 points)
• 1x Scout Sergeant
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
• 4x Scout
• 2x Astartes shotgun
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Scout sniper rifle

Exported with App Version: v1.11.0 (39), Data Version: v352

What is going in the Drop Pod? The Hellblasters and Infernus dudes would, presumably, have Azrael and Ezekiel attached respectively. The Drop Pod only has a capacity of 10 models, though, so with an attached character neither squad would fit.

The Terminator Librarian's Sustained Hits is good, but I lost a Deathwing Command Squad to an opponent who had Anti-Psyker and Devastating Wounds because I had the Librarian in Terminator Armour attached. Won't come up all the time, but something to be wary for.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

Sarigar wrote:
Now the app is updated.

Spoiler:

I know it is not the most efficient but will give this a try this weekend.

The Librarian in Terminator armor with 10 DW Terminators has me intrigued how it may fare on the tabletop.

There are three units which can utilize Vow, which may be too few. Need to play and feel it out. This list is also a mix of what is already painted and not requiring a lot of work to get this on the tabletop (IE not the most efficent).

Inner Circle v1 (1995 points)

Space Marines
Dark Angels
Strike Force (2000 points)
Inner Circle Task Force


CHARACTERS

Azrael (105 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Lion’s Wrath
1x The Lion Helm
1x The Sword of Secrets

Ezekiel (75 points)
• 1x Book of Salvation
1x Mind Wipe
1x The Deliverer
1x Traitor’s Bane

Librarian in Terminator Armour (105 points)
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Force weapon
1x Smite
• Enhancement: Deathwing Assault

Lieutenant with Combi-weapon (70 points)
• 1x Combi-weapon
1x Paired combat blades


OTHER DATASHEETS

Deathwing Terminator Squad (380 points)
• 1x Deathwing Sergeant
• 1x Power weapon
1x Storm bolter
• 9x Deathwing Terminator
• 2x Chainfist
2x Cyclone missile launcher
7x Power fist
9x Storm bolter

Drop Pod (70 points)
• 1x Storm bolter

Hellblaster Squad (250 points)
• 1x Hellblaster Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma incinerator
• 9x Hellblaster
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
9x Plasma incinerator

Inceptor Squad (130 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Assault bolters
1x Close combat weapon
• 2x Inceptor
• 2x Assault bolters
2x Close combat weapon

Inceptor Squad (260 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma exterminators
• 5x Inceptor
• 5x Close combat weapon
5x Plasma exterminators

Inceptor Squad (260 points)
• 1x Inceptor Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma exterminators
• 5x Inceptor
• 5x Close combat weapon
5x Plasma exterminators

Infernus Squad (160 points)
• 1x Infernus Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Pyreblaster
• 9x Infernus Marine
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
9x Pyreblaster

Scout Squad (65 points)
• 1x Scout Sergeant
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
• 4x Scout
• 2x Astartes shotgun
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Scout sniper rifle

Scout Squad (65 points)
• 1x Scout Sergeant
• 1x Astartes chainsword
1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
• 4x Scout
• 2x Astartes shotgun
4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Missile launcher
1x Scout sniper rifle

Exported with App Version: v1.11.0 (39), Data Version: v352

What is going in the Drop Pod? The Hellblasters and Infernus dudes would, presumably, have Azrael and Ezekiel attached respectively. The Drop Pod only has a capacity of 10 models, though, so with an attached character neither squad would fit.

The Terminator Librarian's Sustained Hits is good, but I lost a Deathwing Command Squad to an opponent who had Anti-Psyker and Devastating Wounds because I had the Librarian in Terminator Armour attached. Won't come up all the time, but something to be wary for.

Should state 9 total Infernus Marines, not 10. They are in the Drop Pod.

The list is for casual play and not something I'll take to any tournaments.

I hope someone discoverers some real utility in the DA supplement. I have not found anything that would deter me from using Space Marine detachments to take to a tournament.

I have been thinking about doing the same thing with Hellblasters - dropping one to have nine plus Azrael in a Drop Pod.

Of course, the easy design solution would be to make Drop Pods hold 11 models (and Impulsors hold 7 for some Bladeguard goodness), but here we are!

GW really needs to drop the term 'Infantry'for the Inner Circle detachment rule. Vehicles get the Deathwing keyword yet it does nothing.

Come on GW.....give us an update. Otherwise, Gladius and Vanguard Spearhead detachments are my go to.

I'm even willing to play ICC in a Gladius Detachment.

Sarigar wrote:
GW really needs to drop the term 'Infantry'for the Inner Circle detachment rule. Vehicles get the Deathwing keyword yet it does nothing.

Come on GW.....give us an update. Otherwise, Gladius and Vanguard Spearhead detachments are my go to.

I'm even willing to play ICC in a Gladius Detachment.

Pretty sure they did that one on purpose. Not that it makes sense, because in theory 200 points of Terminators should have similar output to 200 points of Redemptor.

But yeah, most of the Dets need some work. They're a good first step, but they're only the first step to good. Gladius is generally the Go To because it doesn't have the keyword limitations.

Tried out another Inner Circle list with the thought of pick Fixed Secondaries baked into the design (Behind Enemy Lines and Deploy Teleport Homers). I also put in some Inner Circle Companions with a Librarian. I ended up against Thousand Sons, and with their fairly low density board presence I went with the Fixed Secondaries.

The Vowed Target rules never really came into play, but perhaps it did make him play his Daemon Prince and Hellbrutes a little more cagey than normal. This actually cost him some VP once, so there is that. I wouldn't count on the +1 to wound for things like Hellblasters led by Azrael etc.

The Fixed Secondaries were a double-edged sword. I did score well, but my battle plan was completely telegraphed by my choice and it also made me use some really good units in sub-optimal ways. This did draw his main effort back into his deployment zone, which let get a big lead on Primaries as well. So its something to have as an option but it won't be the path to victory in each game.

The Deathwing Knights with swords ended up against Hellbrutes and the Daemon Prince - being Damage 1 was a big drawback.

The Inner Circle Companions did kill a Sorcerer over two rounds, secured an objective and then died to a flurry of combi-bolter. AP -1 was not a huge factor in this match up since everything seemed to have a 4++. Still not convinced about them as a viable unit, but I will keep messing around with them. Gladius, as usual, might be the best option if I really want to run them (they are great looking models).

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Tried out another Inner Circle list with the thought of pick Fixed Secondaries baked into the design (Behind Enemy Lines and Deploy Teleport Homers). I also put in some Inner Circle Companions with a Librarian. I ended up against Thousand Sons, and with their fairly low density board presence I went with the Fixed Secondaries.

The Vowed Target rules never really came into play, but perhaps it did make him play his Daemon Prince and Hellbrutes a little more cagey than normal. This actually cost him some VP once, so there is that. I wouldn't count on the +1 to wound for things like Hellblasters led by Azrael etc.

The Fixed Secondaries were a double-edged sword. I did score well, but my battle plan was completely telegraphed by my choice and it also made me use some really good units in sub-optimal ways. This did draw his main effort back into his deployment zone, which let get a big lead on Primaries as well. So its something to have as an option but it won't be the path to victory in each game.

The Deathwing Knights with swords ended up against Hellbrutes and the Daemon Prince - being Damage 1 was a big drawback.

The Inner Circle Companions did kill a Sorcerer over two rounds, secured an objective and then died to a flurry of combi-bolter. AP -1 was not a huge factor in this match up since everything seemed to have a 4++. Still not convinced about them as a viable unit, but I will keep messing around with them. Gladius, as usual, might be the best option if I really want to run them (they are great looking models).

I haven't done the building and painting yet, but I think Vowed Target keeps coming back to Vanguard Vets and Assault (especially Lightning Claw) Terminators. Give the Terminators Consolidate 6" but really the Vanguard Vets have the movement to jump from Vowed Objective to Vowed Objective, and benefit from the +1 to Wound on their melta pistols and Heirloom Weapoins.

I'm currently building/painting my ICC. I'm a big fan of Contrast to "battle ready", then layer up over that. I'm really digging the Sigvald Burgundy for their robes (and the robes of the Watchers). Its more vibrant than the purple GW got so far, but I kind of like it better - it doesn't look as washed/frosted/subdued. The 3D Lion Head pauldrons for the "unit" pauldron is also I think a win. I'll probably do another unit with the 3D Printed Angel Shield I found glued to the back to convert into some DA specific Bladeugard Vets (still painted in black armor like the ICC, and learn from making this unit.

I posted a list in the 40k Army List for DA around a week or so ago. If anyone would be able to help me with it?

I had a friend suggest a Chaplain over the Captain but unsure on that. On top of having 20(15) points unused if I do that. In addition, to split my scout squad into 2 5-mans. Which i can do but I only have the 1 sniper/missile launcher. So only 1 squad would get those.

I haven't played in 12years. So still trying to tweak the list and figure things out. I also have to learn the game. But I own all these models. Just have to assemble/paint them.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/813273.page

You'd be better off finding some discord or youtube commments section to leave that. Forums are mostly ossified as you can tell, there's basically no activity anymore. Sorry, I cant help you either as I got rid of my army for 10th.

I gave my two cents; I think the list is workable if not super competitive.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I gave my two cents; I think the list is workable if not super competitive.

Ty. I'll try to figure out a landraider from your advice. However, the Hellblasters are a 9man unit specifically so Azreal can fit in a drop pod with them.

Just played a game earlier this evening (or rather, yesterday as it's early morning now) trying out the Company of Hunters detachment vs. my opponent's Space Marines Vanguard Hunters detachment.
My list:

In my list, I put Sammael and the Chaplain each with one of the Black Knight units, and put the Command Squad with the big Outrider squad. I put the Stormraven in hover mode, which is how I'll probably play it in most games.
My opponent's list, from memory:

My opponent attached a Phobos Lieutenant to each Incursor unit, which worked pretty well for him, and he put the Bladeguard in the Impulsor. Inceptors went in Deep Strike of course. Both of us took Tactical objectives.

Our mission was Priority Targets, our special rule was the sticky objectives one (rendering my opponent's Intercessors and both of our sticky strats redundant), and deployment was Dawn of War. My opponent won the roll-off to go first and moved a bunch of his stuff up but not super aggressively. Our terrain might have been a bit too sparse but I could not hide the Stormraven completely and it caught a lot of fire but survived with 4 wounds remaining. On my turn, I very aggressively moved most of my army up and thanks to some advance + charge shenanigans and Oath of Moment-buffed shooting managed to put down both Redemptors and the Impulsor, but very little else. My Darkshroud was a hero, protecting my vehicles and units throughout the game. Without it, my Stormraven would have died turn 1. It ended up becoming a victim of an Incursor's Haywire Mine (an ability I forgot they had) on turn 2. The game was very back and forth but I managed to pull way ahead on secondaries thanks to some good draws, and my opponent sitting on A Tempting Target for too long without scoring it. Once the dust settled I did manage a commanding victory and there were very few models left on the table on either side.

As usual, here are my big takeaways:
-Outriders and Black Knights are nice and fast, but they are fairly squishy for the points. Definitely make use of terrain and the various stratagems (Armor of Contempt, High-Speed Focus) to help keep them alive.
-The Darkshroud was very clutch in my game; providing a big bubble of Stealth and cover is very good for survivability. And any shots that your opponent shoots at the Darkshroud to kill it are not going into your actual dangerous stuff.
-The Stormraven has great firepower, but it is difficult to hide. Obviously if you don't Hover it you can't hide it, but even if you do hover it it's a chonky boi and your opponent can usually find an angle to shoot at it.
-I've said it before and I'll say it again, I think people are sleeping on the Predator Annihilator. It's kind of a poor man's Gladiator Lancer, but for 30 fewer points it still has great firepower.
-The Company of Hunters detachment definitely has some potential. My list is hardly optimized but I think a really good player with a more minmaxed list can probably really make it sing. Being able to advance or fall back and still shoot is great on just about any unit in the game.

Nice write-up Zerg - always good to compare notes from gameplay!

So the Stormraven was just there as a gunboat and fire sponge? Seemed effective!

I'm in a league where the list-lock rules and Codex release dates have made it hard to play current lists. I took a Gladius Hellblaster list with the Lion, since I had had the Lion in the previous round and won. The Lion is quite weak now - losing the wound roll debuff hurts, not to mention the change to Sweep. The Lion didn't achieve much before dying to some Eradicators.

I am likely going to take an Ironstorm list next round. The loss of the Talonmaster makes it weaker, but I will try a Ravenwing Command Squad with the Advance and Shoot enhancement for vehicles.

Its early, but Dark Angels win rates have dropped since the Codex started being played. Most tourneys have a two-week list lock so we are just seeing those games with the new Codex now. The Ironstorm with Azrael, a Dark Shroud, a Stormraven and a Talonmaster with an enhancement was propping up our win rate, so we'll see how the loss of the Talonmaster impacts that.

The latest round of Goonhammer Competitive Innovations articles show yet more success for DA using the Ironstorm detachment. Looks like this is the way forward for us, most likely, just Azrael and a Darkshroud along with whatever vehicles (usually 3 Redemptors and 1-2 Stormravens among other things).

I am running an Ironstorm detachment to close out a league that I am in. A single Stormraven carrying Azrael, 10 x Hellblasters, a Techmarine with the Lethal Hits for Vehicles aura and a Redemptor with a Darkshroud and Thunderstrike riding along. It hits really hard, and with the movement of the Stormraven you can usually hide on a typical table on Turn 1 and still hammer the spot that you want. I suppose I could drop the Hellblasters and add a second Stormraven. That other one is painted wrong, though, so it wouldn't feel right.

Stats are stats, but the Goonhammer stats for the period since the Codex dropped for tourney play are a little sad. It looks like a win rate hovering around 40%. By detachment we see:
- Ironstorm has over 600 games and a 47% win rate.
- Gladius has over 500 games and a win rate of 41%
- People are trying to make the Inner Circle Task Force work with over 700 games played (in tourneys) with a win rate just under 40%.
- Unforgiven Task Force has 262 games played and a win rate of 34%.
- Company of Hunters has a mere 174 games and a 33% win rate.

So Ironstorm is propping up the stats.

I had a moment of excitement when I saw that there was a Dark Angels update yesterday. So Outrider Squad units get Battleline instead of Outrider units. I guess it makes the rules lawyers happy, but a sad panda moment to open the document and see only that language cleanup.

My fear for the coming balance dataslate is that they will react by nerfing Azrael, Stormravens and Darkshrouds and consider it job done.

My hope is that they drop points on all Terminators (and the Inner Circle Companions.) Throw in Devastating Wound protection for the Watchers and Inner Circle Task Force might just creep into the "goldilocks zone." I think that Mounted units need a complete rework as opposed to points, but I hope that I am wrong.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am running an Ironstorm detachment to close out a league that I am in. A single Stormraven carrying Azrael, 10 x Hellblasters, a Techmarine with the Lethal Hits for Vehicles aura and a Redemptor with a Darkshroud and Thunderstrike riding along. It hits really hard, and with the movement of the Stormraven you can usually hide on a typical table on Turn 1 and still hammer the spot that you want. I suppose I could drop the Hellblasters and add a second Stormraven. That other one is painted wrong, though, so it wouldn't feel right.

Stats are stats, but the Goonhammer stats for the period since the Codex dropped for tourney play are a little sad. It looks like a win rate hovering around 40%. By detachment we see:
- Ironstorm has over 600 games and a 47% win rate.
- Gladius has over 500 games and a win rate of 41%
- People are trying to make the Inner Circle Task Force work with over 700 games played (in tourneys) with a win rate just under 40%.
- Unforgiven Task Force has 262 games played and a win rate of 34%.
- Company of Hunters has a mere 174 games and a 33% win rate.

So Ironstorm is propping up the stats.

I had a moment of excitement when I saw that there was a Dark Angels update yesterday. So Outrider Squad units get Battleline instead of Outrider units. I guess it makes the rules lawyers happy, but a sad panda moment to open the document and see only that language cleanup.

My fear for the coming balance dataslate is that they will react by nerfing Azrael, Stormravens and Darkshrouds and consider it job done.

My hope is that they drop points on all Terminators (and the Inner Circle Companions.) Throw in Devastating Wound protection for the Watchers and Inner Circle Task Force might just creep into the "goldilocks zone." I think that Mounted units need a complete rework as opposed to points, but I hope that I am wrong.

I think they need to up the OC on Terminators either flat 2 like the bikes, or 2 in a First Company/Inner Circle Task Force, but probably flat 2 to go with the bikes.

Well the only way to really make various detachments to work would requier two obligatory things. First for the books to be digital as main source of rules (maybe have one detachment as a "free" option online) and then have each detachment for every army based around the detachment rules, stratagems etc in stuff like units OC, units point costs, units being battle line or being 0-1 or even a 0 option. A venguard detachment should not have a unit of centurions teleport around etc.

This would be the start, the other thing would be the creation of modular characters. Can't have rules without models? okey. The make a box with a space marine biker character which has a head/hand to make a cpt, Lt, librarian, chaplain etc. And do this for all factions. GW can even market up the box price in to the high heavens, they already do it for some armies. But at least people would be able to have fun with their armies and not wait 12 years to play their army and have fun.

Some helpful points cuts - especially the Lion. Inner Circle Companions now cost the same as Bladeguard, so that might help them see the table more. Terminators are cheaper. Stormraven went up, but Hellblasters came down.

So all in all positive for us. Will see how the Deathwing lists look now.

My hot takes from the points changes as it affects Dark Angels:
-Lion got cheaper but he's still not competitive. He's perfectly fine for casual play now, at least, but he's unlikely to be seen in top table lists in tournaments. He just doesn't do enough for his cost.
-Inner Circle Companions are probably worth a look now, but AP-1 feels really bad with all the Armor of Contempt and similar things around. They might show up in Gladius where they can get AP-2 and Lance though.
-Deathwing Knights got a little cheaper and are probably worth consideration now. They are pretty durable compared to other Terminators.
-Regular Deathwing are still more expensive than standard Terminators for no reason. Guess they pay an extra point per model for the privilege of carrying plasma cannons? Not sure what advantage if any these guys have that could actually make them worth more points.
-Azrael managed to dodge the nerf bat yet again. No complaints here, but he's extremely good for his points so I'm kind of surprised he's stayed so cheap.
-One of the strongest Dark Angels builds, which I call and others (I think) call Iron Angels, caught some points hikes. Stormravens went up 20, and two of the enhancements from Ironstorm went up 10 each. My own list that I've been playtesting recently only went up 15 total, but that's because I wasn't using both of the enhancements that got hikes and I have a Brutalis Dread in my list, which went down 15. I'm still going to have to cut a unit of Scouts to fit under 2k now though. Single tear.
-Tactical Squads are now only 140. They are still a meme unit at this point as you still have to take 10 guys and they do basically nothing.
-Jump Assault Intercessors went down to 80 for 5. I was already considering them as a cheaper alternative to Inceptors and now they are even cheaper.
-Hellblasters somehow got a points cut. They were already good before, but now they are amazing. Azrael, a Lieutenant, and a full Hellblaster unit is only 400 points, and they do a ton of damage, especially against the Oath target.

Overall I think Dark Angels are better off. Our best build (and how I hate that it's the best build...) got a possibly well-deserved kick in the nuts, but I think the changes might open up more list building possibilities. Vanguard and Gladius continue to be solid options, and I think there's play in the Firestorm Assault Force and maybe even the Inner Circle Task Force now that Terminators are cheaper.