Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Incorrect, a tactical squad is: (for those primaris only folks) a unit of generalist space marines that can have a variety of weapons options depending on the fight. What you are describing are units which have 1 weapon profile, those are not the same things. But in 2 years Primaris will have every weapon option avail to them. Missiles, Plasma, Flames, and Meltas are avail already. Heavy Bolters and Lascannons to be added in the future I'm willing to bet. Then voila the most expensive way to replace tactical squads complete.

 Gibblets wrote:
Incorrect, a tactical squad is: (for those primaris only folks) a unit of generalist space marines that can have a variety of weapons options depending on the fight. What you are describing are units which have 1 weapon profile, those are not the same things. But in 2 years Primaris will have every weapon option avail to them. Missiles, Plasma, Flames, and Meltas are avail already. Heavy Bolters and Lascannons to be added in the future I'm willing to bet. Then voila the most expensive way to replace tactical squads complete.

They have two weapon profiles. Intercessors can have two Auxiliary Grenade Launchers which is the Primaris equivalent of 1 Special + 1 Heavy for the "Tactical Squad".

Meh. It is what it is. The game has evolved vastly since the late 80s.

I'm hoping somebody will unlock tactics I haven't come up with to play the DA detachments. Vanguard Spearhead has been my go to but my current list is only using Azrael as the only DA specific unit.

Sarigar wrote:
Meh. It is what it is. The game has evolved vastly since the late 80s.

I'm hoping somebody will unlock tactics I haven't come up with to play the DA detachments. Vanguard Spearhead has been my go to but my current list is only using Azrael as the only DA specific unit.

Ahh, I see you're an optimist. I'm just hoping GW FAQ/Fixes the Inner Circle Detachment soon after the official release.

I prefer pragmatic.

I am glad I have the flexibility to use detachments from the Space Marine Codex and DA supplement.

It is funny as a long time friend who has not played since 2nd edition asked if the curse is still with DA. He had dubbed the DA cursed when the 2nd ed codex, Angels of Death, was released. The rules for DA were so bad compared to the Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

I told him, yes, the curse continues. They were good (DW build) in 9th and maybe sometime in previous editions, but they seemingly take a back seat to other chapters.

To be honest, I thought about converting a model to represent Marneus Calgar but remain in my themed DA colors. Uriel Ventris is a simple 'conversion'.

I got to play with (3) Centurions last night after the Balance Dataslate using the Vanguard Spearhead. I've got a feeling that unit will start showing up in more non Ultramarines lists. It performed really well.

 Gibblets wrote:
Incorrect, a tactical squad is: (for those primaris only folks) a unit of generalist space marines that can have a variety of weapons options depending on the fight. What you are describing are units which have 1 weapon profile, those are not the same things. But in 2 years Primaris will have every weapon option avail to them. Missiles, Plasma, Flames, and Meltas are avail already. Heavy Bolters and Lascannons to be added in the future I'm willing to bet. Then voila the most expensive way to replace tactical squads complete.

Black templar being the last two editions marines+, do have the option of taking heavy flamer in their primaris squads. Had them as an option for squads, before the all-flamer squad became a thing in 10th ed.

Played in a five-round local tournament this weekend. The Dark Angels Index was still in effect. I took a Gladius Task Force with



Game 1 - Take and Hold vs...Dark Angels

He went Ravenwing Black Knight heavy with Sammael and a Talonmaster along with the Lion, supported by two Redemptors, some Scouts and one Intercessor Squad. I don't think he took enough infantry to go with the Lion. He deployed as far forward as he could with his Redemptors, while I kept my stuff out of LOS. I got first turn and picked up both Redemptors. Over the next two turns I took down all the Black Knights and the Lion with a combination of Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights (and the tanks). He drew some tough initial Secondaries while I drew some easy ones to get going. A 90-5 tabling.

Game 2 - Sites of Power vs Death Guard

He had Mortarian, a Landraider, a Rhino, two Plague Marine squads with those Grenade leaders, five Deathshroud terminators, some cultists, two of those Fleshmower things, Typhus and a bunch of pox-walkers. Our first turn was very cagey, but he did made a move with Mortarian and the Rhino while his poxwalkers pushed my left flank.The Hellblasters and the tanks took down Motarian while the Deathwing Knights and Deathwing Command Squad took down a Fleshmower and the Rhino. He brought in the Deathshroud behind some ruins but they failed their charge. In turn 3 the Deathwing Knights and the by now much-reduced Hellblasters took out the Deathshroud with plasma, mace and Sword of Secrets. This did, though, draw my out of position on my right flank. By the end pretty much all he had left was the Poxwalkers and Typhus, but by now they had taken my left flank and my home objective. A very close, swingy game where I lost by four points. The final charge by Typhus won the match, but this was set up by me overdoing it on the Deathshroud. So a 57 to 61 loss.

Game 3 - Scorched Earth vs Canoptech Court Necrons

He had two big units of Wraiths, a unit of Immortals and a unit of Warriors, six Heavy Destroyers and two Doomsday Arcs. He had first turn and was all over my poor Scouts in the open table quarters. I was able to kill the right flank Wraiths with my entire army on the board (Hellblasters and Deathwing Knights doing the work). His Doomsday Arcs and Destroyers moved on my Deathwing Knights, killing four. This put them both in the open. My tanks moved out and killed one while the Hellblasters and Deathwing Command squad killed the other, plus some incautious Heavy Destroyers. A mad scrap broke out in the centre and my left flank. I lost the Command Squad and an Infiltator Squad but I was able to crack back enough with Hellblasters and the tanks to pull out a 60 to 54 win.

Game 4 - Priority Targets vs Tau on Hammer and Anvil

He had a six-strong brick of Crisis Suits with a Commander, another small unit, two units of Breachers, two Hammerheads, three Broadsides, a Stormsurge and three units of those stealthy suits. This looked like a tough matchup so I placed my Hellblaster in Strat Reserve along with the Deathwing Knights and Inceptors. I had first turn and was able to take out one of the stealthy units plus a Hammerhead. His turn took out my Lancer, the Deathwind Command Squad and my central Scouts. It looked bleak, but I still had reserves. I took down the Crisis Suits with the Hellblasters, but most of this was through overwatch and shooting on death when he then return fire. The Deathwing Knights took out the Tau backfield, but my own force by Turn 5 were down to them a single Infiltrator Squad. A 52 to 83 loss. I never really felt in this game and I was just trying to scrape VPs. I over-committed my armour on Turn 1 to kill a single Hammerhead, and I also sacrificed the Deathwing Command Squad early for some VPs. So not my best game!

Game 5 - Vital Ground vs Space Wolves (Stormlance)

He had a maxed-out Outrider Squad with a Chaplain, ten Terminators, five Terminators, a Ballistus, Long Fangs, a Thunderstrike, six Aggressors with an Apothecary Biologis and three Thunderwolf Cavalry. I had first turn and felt pretty good until my tanks whiffed against the Ballistus. My Hellblasters did kill the Thunderwolf but they were now reachable by the enemy Bikes. My Lancer died to his Longfangs and Ballistus. His bikes rolled in and by end of the Shooting and Fight Phase only Azrael was left. Overwatch and revenge shooting, though, plus some Azrael melee did kill the Mariocart bike and three Outriders. The Deathwing Knights charged in on Turn 2 to help out while the Deathwing Command Squad dropped in to charge the Aggressors (my Oath). A great round of melee (aided by the use of two Honour the Chapter strats) wiped out the Aggressors and the Bikes/Chaplain. His Terminators were well screened out by my forces so they dropped into places that were not all that great. The Deathwing Command Squad and Inceptors took the enemy home objective (Capture Enemy Outpost). They then fell to his Terminators but I was now well ahead on points. Final score 72-21.

So I went 3-2 and came 9th out of 30. The Deathguard list won the tourney (5-0), with Chaos Daemons, Ultramarines (Ironstorm), Orks, Astra Militarum and Tyranids rounding out the top 6 going 4-1 each. I was happy with my list, but I might drop the Predator and one Infiltrator Squad to add another Lancer. The Azrael, Lieutenant with Fire Discipline walking with ten Hellblasters did a lot of serious lifting, but they do suffer against long-range/long threat range shooting. The Deathwing Command Squad would go (and will have to go) for either Bladeguard or just a Deathwing Terminator Squad. I still think Gladius is the best "all rounder" list for Dark Angels, but I am looking forward to trying out some lists from the new Codex.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

Azrael, ten Hellblasters and a Fire Discipline Lieutenant;

- two Infiltrator Squads and one Phobos Librarian;

I still think Gladius is the best "all rounder" list for Dark Angels, but I am looking forward to trying out some lists from the new Codex.

I'm not sure the LT is the optimal choice - Lethal Hits is nice on Plasma but I'm not sure it's better than Narthecium (Ressurection 1) But I think it's close, especially if using them "off label" vs a T12ish tank/monster.

I love surrounding primarchs with a Phobos Libby led Infiltrator Squad. The Infiltrators don't provide much killing power, but the Libby can lend the Primarch a hand here and there.

Gladius probably is the best all rounder, but I also think not enough people have devoted enough effort to emphasis (between leaning and full on skew) in the other Dets - especially cross flavor i.e. Tanks in the Raven Guard harder to shoot at list.

As for the Dark Angel Dets, I'd wait a while on those.

The Grim Resolve on is still bad because morale is generally a bad mechanic. Combine that with it being "back loaded" like the Sisters Miracle Dice such that you have less stuff that can be influenced by the Mario Mushroom Powerup because you have to lose some to earn it and it's a double whammy.
The Deathwing Det is currently bad, but could be good when/if they fix the keyword probelms. Only Terminator Characters can get the Enhancements, even as they added a crapton of power armor units to the Deathwing. Top that off with the Lion not being in the Deathwing and Not A Terminator so he can't use any of the strats either... I don't think this was intentional, I think the guy who wrote this Det spent more time on his pot brownies than his writing.
The Hunter one isn't bad. I think the Lightning Assault Det is 6 of one vs 5 of another better, but that's small enough you can pull some gotchas or something.

Nice writeup as always, TTB. Nice to get a "last hurrah" for the Index units like the Deathwing Command Squad, I suppose. Mine will probably live on as a regular Terminator Ancient, a Deathwing Knight Master (Champion) and a regular Terminator with a chainfist (Apothecary). It sounds like your DA opponent was thinking the same since he had a Talonmaster (RIP to a real one there).

Breton, I notice you have mentioned the Deathwing detachment as being bad; why is it bad? It's true that The Lion has no stratagem support in it, but that just means you don't take him in that detachment. I look forward to abusing the crap out of giving the Deathwing keyword to units that would not otherwise have it (like Azrael with Hellblasters; is there any detachment where that unit is bad?), at least until GW catches on to it and nerfs it like they did with Necron Canoptek Court. Personally I think the Inner Circle detachment is probably the best of the three DA ones, although I think the Company of Hunters could have some potential as well in the hands of a skilled player (some decent movement tricks in there). The Unforgiven Task Force is just a worse Gladius and you should just run a Gladius if you were thinking of taking it competitively.

One thing I've been considering recently is using the Firestorm Assault Force and converting up my own DA versions of the two Salamanders characters (Vulkan He'stan and Adrax Agatone), but at that point I guess I'm not really running DA any more am I? It still might be fun to do the conversions.

@ZergSmasher. I've been thinking the same. I've been using 10 Infernus Marines, which are hit or miss (very matchup dependent). However, in Firestorm and having a Captain to use the devastating wounds with Torrent a second time has made me look at adding another 10 Infernus Marines or 10 Vanguard Vets with Hand Flamers.

I play Eldar and people loathe Warp Spider shooting which is this but with Marines.

Breton wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

Azrael, ten Hellblasters and a Fire Discipline Lieutenant;

- two Infiltrator Squads and one Phobos Librarian;

I still think Gladius is the best "all rounder" list for Dark Angels, but I am looking forward to trying out some lists from the new Codex.

I'm not sure the LT is the optimal choice - Lethal Hits is nice on Plasma but I'm not sure it's better than Narthecium (Ressurection 1) But I think it's close, especially if using them "off label" vs a T12ish tank/monster.

I love surrounding primarchs with a Phobos Libby led Infiltrator Squad. The Infiltrators don't provide much killing power, but the Libby can lend the Primarch a hand here and there.

Gladius probably is the best all rounder, but I also think not enough people have devoted enough effort to emphasis (between leaning and full on skew) in the other Dets - especially cross flavor i.e. Tanks in the Raven Guard harder to shoot at list.

As for the Dark Angel Dets, I'd wait a while on those.

The Grim Resolve on is still bad because morale is generally a bad mechanic. Combine that with it being "back loaded" like the Sisters Miracle Dice such that you have less stuff that can be influenced by the Mario Mushroom Powerup because you have to lose some to earn it and it's a double whammy.
The Deathwing Det is currently bad, but could be good when/if they fix the keyword probelms. Only Terminator Characters can get the Enhancements, even as they added a crapton of power armor units to the Deathwing. Top that off with the Lion not being in the Deathwing and Not A Terminator so he can't use any of the strats either... I don't think this was intentional, I think the guy who wrote this Det spent more time on his pot brownies than his writing.
The Hunter one isn't bad. I think the Lightning Assault Det is 6 of one vs 5 of another better, but that's small enough you can pull some gotchas or something.

Good points. Since 10th dropped I've gone back on forth between Lieutenants and Apothecaries for the Hellblasters. With old Oath of Moment you could reasonably rely on re-rolls to wound vs tougher opponents, and when I was trying to make the Unforgiven Task Force work I could use the Unforgiven Fury strat for Lethal Wounds. So I did run an Apothecary with Azrael for a while. Resurrecting a single Hellblaster is good in theory, but I find its more about maximizing killing-power these days. Fire Discipline and Azrael are a little redundant in terms of Sustained 1, but having access to Sustained and Lethals on 5+ when in Devastator Doctrine has made the Hellblasters able to really hit hard.

Infiltrators (or Incursors I suppose) with a Phobos Librarian would be a great escort for the Lion! I ran the Lion for a bit early-on, but he is mostly a display piece now. Sad.

There were three other Dark Angels this weekend at the tourney, two with the Lion and one with a Vanguard Spearhead with ten Deathwing Knights. They had a tough tourney. The Lion can only really affect one area of the table. While ten infiltrating Deathwing Knights sounds awesome, they can be isolated and ignored. Of note, three of us had the Azrael-Hellblaster deathball. I paired mine with some long-range firepower in the form of tanks which meant that in most games I could be somewhat conservative with them (messed that up in my last game). I think the other lists suffered against opponents who had lots of D2 long-range firepower (which is out there).

I've been theory-hammering the new Detachments, but I am looking forward to on-table experience. Having said that, I agree that the Unforgiven Task Force is a miss. It was evident that the Index writers didn't have much table-time with 10th when they designed around Battle Shock, and with an early Codex release there was no time to fix it. So I don't think it will get much play.

I am less pessimistic about the Inner Circle Task Force. It is quite restrictive, and perhaps this should have been applied to some of the main Space Marine Codex ones as well? Still, I think that there are enough non-unique Deathwing characters to be able to employ a couple of those enhancements to good effect (Deathwing Assault and Singular Will look good to me). A Terminator Captain with Deathwing Assault leading a Terminator squad along with an Ancient in Terminator Armour with Singular Will could put some real early pressure on an opponent.

I will give the Ravenwing one a spin, as I have plenty of Black Knights. It should play the missions well, but it seems to be missing something. Like our old datasheets!

Sarigar wrote:
@ZergSmasher. I've been thinking the same. I've been using 10 Infernus Marines, which are hit or miss (very matchup dependent). However, in Firestorm and having a Captain to use the devastating wounds with Torrent a second time has made me look at adding another 10 Infernus Marines or 10 Vanguard Vets with Hand Flamers.

I play Eldar and people loathe Warp Spider shooting which is this but with Marines.

Yes, but infernus marines don't have eldar stratagems or the gigantic movment. My army has access to quad flamer teleporting squads, with access to mists of deimos, and we still don't use them, because they are just bad. Infernus are the feels bad meta choice, when you know your buddy is bringing his guant swarm army, and you waltz in with 30 of those dudes.

They have access to Drop Pods.

I've been playing a squad of 10 in my DA army mainly because I painted them. I am aware they are not the meta choice.

They have some play and many times deep strike on turn 1, shoot, then block movement and make my opponent decide if he wants to risk the overwatch.

In some games, they work well. In others, not so much.

But the idea of the Firestorm detachment inflicting Devastating Wounds is interesting.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Nice writeup as always, TTB. Nice to get a "last hurrah" for the Index units like the Deathwing Command Squad, I suppose. Mine will probably live on as a regular Terminator Ancient, a Deathwing Knight Master (Champion) and a regular Terminator with a chainfist (Apothecary). It sounds like your DA opponent was thinking the same since he had a Talonmaster (RIP to a real one there).

Breton, I notice you have mentioned the Deathwing detachment as being bad; why is it bad? It's true that The Lion has no stratagem support in it, but that just means you don't take him in that detachment. I look forward to abusing the crap out of giving the Deathwing keyword to units that would not otherwise have it (like Azrael with Hellblasters; is there any detachment where that unit is bad?), at least until GW catches on to it and nerfs it like they did with Necron Canoptek Court. Personally I think the Inner Circle detachment is probably the best of the three DA ones, although I think the Company of Hunters could have some potential as well in the hands of a skilled player (some decent movement tricks in there). The Unforgiven Task Force is just a worse Gladius and you should just run a Gladius if you were thinking of taking it competitively.

One thing I've been considering recently is using the Firestorm Assault Force and converting up my own DA versions of the two Salamanders characters (Vulkan He'stan and Adrax Agatone), but at that point I guess I'm not really running DA any more am I? It still might be fun to do the conversions.

Not taking The Lion in the Inner Circle Detachment isn't a solution, its surrender to the Det being bad. Is there any individual more "Inner Circle" than the Primarch of the Legion/Chapter? Is it bad enough Guilliman got to keep D2 Sweep, AND valid target for each of his Gladius strats, but the Lion isn't Inner Circle Enough use the strategies his technically inferior gene sons have come up with?

In addition to the faction-wide problems of non-standard armor (Bike/Gravis/Terminator/Jump/Etc) HQs being between thin and anorexic for all these new Dets to pile on with absentee keywords and Like-to-like Armor attachment requirements just makes it worse.

Bladeguard are now Deathwing. The Captain and Lieutenant in Bladeguard gear are not. So if they lead the unit, they can't get an enhancement. Neither can Power Armored Chaplains or Judiciars that came in the same box/kit and were designed to work with/lead/attach to them. The same is true for the other Van/Stern-Guard Veterans The Jump Captain that can lead the Deathwing Vanguard Vets is not himself Deathwing.

The second best HQ choice for the Inner Circle Companions is the power armored regular Librarian. Which is not Deathwing, and can't get an enhancement. Even though all Libbies were Deathwing, today they... aren't.

The Storm Raven is also no longer Deathwing either. Its Ravenwing. Even though its the flying Land Raider Terminator Transport, and can't transport... bikes. But Hey, it can also transport... Dreadnaughts. Which are now all Deathwing.

Someone doing a Primaris Successor Chapter - thus trying to avoid/reduce the Terminators - will be hard pressed to assign an enhancement to an HQ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

Infiltrators (or Incursors I suppose) with a Phobos Librarian would be a great escort for the Lion! I ran the Lion for a bit early-on, but he is mostly a display piece now. Sad.

There were three other Dark Angels this weekend at the tourney, two with the Lion and one with a Vanguard Spearhead with ten Deathwing Knights. They had a tough tourney. The Lion can only really affect one area of the table. While ten infiltrating Deathwing Knights sounds awesome, they can be isolated and ignored. Of note, three of us had the Azrael-Hellblaster deathball. I paired mine with some long-range firepower in the form of tanks which meant that in most games I could be somewhat conservative with them (messed that up in my last game). I think the other lists suffered against opponents who had lots of D2 long-range firepower (which is out there).

I've been theory-hammering the new Detachments, but I am looking forward to on-table experience. Having said that, I agree that the Unforgiven Task Force is a miss. It was evident that the Index writers didn't have much table-time with 10th when they designed around Battle Shock, and with an early Codex release there was no time to fix it. So I don't think it will get much play.

I am less pessimistic about the Inner Circle Task Force. It is quite restrictive, and perhaps this should have been applied to some of the main Space Marine Codex ones as well? Still, I think that there are enough non-unique Deathwing characters to be able to employ a couple of those enhancements to good effect (Deathwing Assault and Singular Will look good to me). A Terminator Captain with Deathwing Assault leading a Terminator squad along with an Ancient in Terminator Armour with Singular Will could put some real early pressure on an opponent.

I will give the Ravenwing one a spin, as I have plenty of Black Knights. It should play the missions well, but it seems to be missing something. Like our old datasheets!

Incursors will work, but Infiltrators work better. Incursors led by a Phobos libby give everyone the can't be shot outside 12 thing and -1 to Hit even if they are that close, but Infiltrators also add the Can't Deep Strike within 12". So the only way to shoot at those guys is to actually run something up to them - and you have more control over that than they do because you have the option of backing off, or rolling up with the Lion and the Phobos Libby to smack stuff that gets too close. Very few things by themselves can counter that level of area denial.

I don't think the problem with the Unforgiven is they didn't have much time with Battleshock, the problem is they don't want to make Battleshock a "phase" of the game - i.e. there are shooting armies, there are fighting armies, there are both armies. There aren't very many morale armies, because they don't want to make morale a strategy/theme sadly.

"I think that there are enough non-unique Deathwing characters" - As you can see in my immediately previous reply, the only non-Epic Hero HQs that get the Deathwing keyword get it because they have the TERMINATOR keyword. Not only can the Lion not use the Deathwing Strats, neither can the Storm Raven dropping off your Deathwing Knights and Deathwing Dread. Because its been moved to the Ravenwing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

Sarigar wrote:
@ZergSmasher. I've been thinking the same. I've been using 10 Infernus Marines, which are hit or miss (very matchup dependent). However, in Firestorm and having a Captain to use the devastating wounds with Torrent a second time has made me look at adding another 10 Infernus Marines or 10 Vanguard Vets with Hand Flamers.

I play Eldar and people loathe Warp Spider shooting which is this but with Marines.

Yes, but infernus marines don't have eldar stratagems or the gigantic movment. My army has access to quad flamer teleporting squads, with access to mists of deimos, and we still don't use them, because they are just bad. Infernus are the feels bad meta choice, when you know your buddy is bringing his guant swarm army, and you waltz in with 30 of those dudes.

I just want them to make Flamers work a LITTLE better so they're a decent and thoughtful choice.

Caveat. I know the DA supplement is a bit meh.

Sanity (rules check), please.

Ravenwing detachment.

Stormraven gets Ravenwing keyword.

Stratagem Rapid Reprisal. End of opponent fight phase, put model in Strategic Reserve. Stormraven pulled off board.

Next Ravenwing turn, it arrives. Can now (post dataslate) disembark units inside transport.

Azrael, Lt, Hellblasters, Dreadnought of choice. (Or whatever unit one places in the Stormraven)

Wow I didn't realize the keywords in the supplement were that screwed up. I take it back, Inner Circle is not the good option I thought it was, no reason to buy that POS book at all.

I feel that the only stand-out enhancement that you miss out on with non-Terminator non-Epic Hero is the Deathwing Assault, which I am guessing you want to put on a Captain with Jump Pack to go with Vanguard Veterans. Perhaps it is copiumon my part, but I am OK with that restriction. Bladeguard wanting to take advantage of the 6" pile in/consolidate enhancement could have a Bladeguard Ancient with them. Not as elegant as a Captain with the Bladeguard gear, but hey, its an option. I am planning to run Ezekiel or Asmodai with my Bladeguard. But your mileage may vary!

I am not sure what benefit having the Deathwing keyword on the Stormraven would have? I agree that the Lion is a sad panda in the Codex, but this is before even considering the Inner Circle detachment and really, he isn't all that competitive now. He clearly annoyed someone on the staff and that is that.

The Inner Circle Task Force does have more restrictions than the main Codex ones. The detachment rule itself is more situational/conditional than the other ones. I will still see if there is some play in there. My rough idea is:

Azrael with Hellblasters and a Lt - makes the unit Deathwing Infantry so they can get the +1 to wound against targets on the oath objective. Situational, but its something. Can also use Unmatched Fortitude to obtain some additional protection against those shooting attacks that punish Hellblasters. Mounted in a Landraider.

Ezekiel with six Bladeguard in a Drop Pod. Pressure unit that can also try some character sniping tricks.

Terminator Captain with Deathwing Assault and an Ancient in Terminator Armour with Singular Will. These go with a unit of Deathwing Terminators. Toying with either a big brick of 10 or two five-man units for flexibility /board control.

This is all backed up by Scouts, Infiltrators and a Lancer. Concept is match-up dependent, but it has the ability to apply pressure early in the opponent's deployment zone and there are some fixed secondary options. Horde armies will deny that to some extent, but then it can still put mid-field pressure early.

Or I will stick with Gladius.

 Gibblets wrote:
Wow I didn't realize the keywords in the supplement were that screwed up. I take it back, Inner Circle is not the good option I thought it was, no reason to buy that POS book at all.

Given how delayed the book has been between Deathwing Assault and going on a solo pre-order I'm pretty much assuming its delayed because they're working an "Official" Release Date FAQ

What was it for 40K Pre Orders?
2/3 PreOrder the book - Book leaked online, forums begin disecting.
2/10 Empty Pre-Order Week
2/17 Unrelated Pre Order week
Eventually 2/24 Pre-Order the Codex
3/3 ish - Codex Officially Releases.

I'm thinking they crawled the forums after the "leak" for reviews and bumped the standalone release to write the FAQ with what we came up with. And once the keyword problems resolve, we're (mostly) back to where everyone thought they were.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I feel that the only stand-out enhancement that you miss out on with non-Terminator non-Epic Hero is the Deathwing Assault, which I am guessing you want to put on a Captain with Jump Pack to go with Vanguard Veterans.

You miss out on all of them. None of the (Non-Epic-Hero which can't get an enhancement anyway) Power Armored traditionally DEATHWING HQs have the DEATHWING keyword or any way to get the keyword. No Power Armored HQ/character can get an enhancement. If you build a Power Armor Deathwing force, none of the HQ's can get the Enhancement. None. You're not missing out on "the best one" you're missing out on ALL of them unless you take an HQ with the TERMINATOR keyword to give them the DEATHWING keyword.

Perhaps it is copiumon my part, but I am OK with that restriction. Bladeguard wanting to take advantage of the 6" pile in/consolidate enhancement could have a Bladeguard Ancient with them. Not as elegant as a Captain with the Bladeguard gear, but hey, its an option. I am planning to run Ezekiel or Asmodai with my Bladeguard. But your mileage may vary!

I am not sure what benefit having the Deathwing keyword on the Stormraven would have? I agree that the Lion is a sad panda in the Codex, but this is before even considering the Inner Circle detachment and really, he isn't all that competitive now. He clearly annoyed someone on the staff and that is that.

The Blade Guard Ancient kind of sucks. As for the benefit of the DEATHWING keyword on the Stormraven? The same benefit the Lion would get. EVERY Det strat (i.e. all of them but the one AOC Strat they put in every Det) requires at least the Deathwing Keyword, some get even more specific, but basically none of the Det strats can be used on the now stupidly Ravenwing flyer designed to carry Deathwing Terminators and Deathwing Dreadnaughts.

The Inner Circle Task Force does have more restrictions than the main Codex ones. The detachment rule itself is more situational/conditional than the other ones. I will still see if there is some play in there. My rough idea is:

Azrael with Hellblasters and a Lt - makes the unit Deathwing Infantry so they can get the +1 to wound against targets on the oath objective. Situational, but its something. Can also use Unmatched Fortitude to obtain some additional protection against those shooting attacks that punish Hellblasters. Mounted in a Landraider.

Ezekiel with six Bladeguard in a Drop Pod. Pressure unit that can also try some character sniping tricks.

Terminator Captain with Deathwing Assault and an Ancient in Terminator Armour with Singular Will. These go with a unit of Deathwing Terminators. Toying with either a big brick of 10 or two five-man units for flexibility /board control.

This is all backed up by Scouts, Infiltrators and a Lancer. Concept is match-up dependent, but it has the ability to apply pressure early in the opponent's deployment zone and there are some fixed secondary options. Horde armies will deny that to some extent, but then it can still put mid-field pressure early.

Or I will stick with Gladius.

Your concept is pretty much proving my point - you're using Epic Heroes who already usually have some sort of bespoke Enhancement, with a bunch of non-Deathwing stuff that won't qualify for Strats (scounts, Infiltratros, and Lancers). The design space for a Primaris Successor Chapter or just someone who wants to do a Power Armor Mix Deathwing without Epic Heroes is pretty much null. Your concept was a little Deathwing and your Gladus List combos. And even before the post ended you're giving up and sticking with Gladius.

My line about enhancements wasn’t very clear - the only standout enhancement is the Deathwing Assault one. It would be powerful on a Jump Captain.

I usually find myself usually returning to Gladius, but I will take these for a spin regardless.

It is clear to me that the Inner Circle detachment is envisioned as a Terminator-based one. You have plenty of character options for that route. Could they FAQ-in some additional Captain configurations? Sure.

I am hoping that they FAQ the Watchers to work against Dev Wounds myself. Data sheet changes are rare these days, but Inner Circle Companions could sure use AP -2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the Stormraven, there are no Inner Circle strats outside the ubiquitous Armour of Contempt that the Stormraven could use even if it had the Deathwing keyword. So not having the Deathwing keyword is not really hurting the Stormraven.

There is no real point to their having given Deathwing to Landraiders. The detachment rule would have to change to “Deathwing unit” from “Deathwing Infantry unit” for the vehicles to benefit.

It does seem that the writer was in the transition from 9th to 10th when they wrote the supplement. The 9th Ed 1st Company bit required things like common keywords to gain the benefit. Which is now gone, but the writer was still adding keywords to things that don’t need/use them.

But we play with what we have and not what we wish we had.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
My line about enhancements wasn’t very clear - the only standout enhancement is the Deathwing Assault one. It would be powerful on a Jump Captain.

I usually find myself usually returning to Gladius, but I will take these for a spin regardless.

It is clear to me that the Inner Circle detachment is envisioned as a Terminator-based one. You have plenty of character options for that route. Could they FAQ-in some additional Captain configurations? Sure.

I am hoping that they FAQ the Watchers to work against Dev Wounds myself. Data sheet changes are rare these days, but Inner Circle Companions could sure use AP -2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the Stormraven, there are no Inner Circle strats outside the ubiquitous Armour of Contempt that the Stormraven could use even if it had the Deathwing keyword. So not having the Deathwing keyword is not really hurting the Stormraven.

There is no real point to their having given Deathwing to Landraiders. The detachment rule would have to change to “Deathwing unit” from “Deathwing Infantry unit” for the vehicles to benefit.

It does seem that the writer was in the transition from 9th to 10th when they wrote the supplement. The 9th Ed 1st Company bit required things like common keywords to gain the benefit. Which is now gone, but the writer was still adding keywords to things that don’t need/use them.

But we play with what we have and not what we wish we had.

Deathwing Assault on a Jump Captain isn't bad (and I'm not seeing all that many things that prevent a Turn 1 Deep Strike anyway: This is for protection from that or the rare occasion you put something in Strategic Reserves that can also Deep Strike for edge cases?), but I think its still better on the Terminators. 10 Terminators dropping Turn 1 Not Within 9 charing 9+ to get within engagement range with a (Captain) reroll is ~40% or 10 Terminators wtith (Libby) SH1 within 9 for Rapid Fire Storm Bolters are both usually better than Distraction Carnifexing some Jump Intercessors and a Captain (IF Vanguard Vets Inferno Pistols had an 8 Inch range then I could see doing a VV Melta Bomb with a Captain using a Within 3) . Maybe the value of the Enhancement changes with House Rules but that's not something to be considered in the Official Rules like this. Or Maybe I'm missing a FAQ/Design/Rule We Didn't Tell Everyone About. I just tried a Search with CTRL+F-ind in Page and nothing leapt out at me. To my eye the big one of the four is Singular Will. Deep Strike Just Over 9", charge 9, get at least 1 of your guys is JUST within 1" of the enemy unit, eveyone else piles in 6" and you get a crap ton more power fists in range instead of strung out behind the fight. Plus edge cases where you pile into something you couldn't have charged, but you're still in engagement range with them now. And you get to Consolidate 6 after fighting which can slingshot you into the next unit for your next Charge or Heroic Intervention. At that point the Terminators are moving further with Consolidation than they are their movement phase.

I'd disagree about the Inner Circle being a Terminator based Det. If that were the case they wouldn't have included all the -Guard Veteran units into the Deathwing. They didn't do it for the fluff, because they also did NOT include the HQ's. They could have stopped at Terminator keyword, and been done. They built it to include the -Guard Veteras, and (sell even more of) the Inner Circle Companions, then kicked themselves in the junk by forgetting to support those units.

You're right, I was so busy counting DEATHWING keywords I skipped over the INFANTRY keywords - which will also exclude the Lion. Man they blew it on this Det.

So I'll revise. Deathwing should be the single keyword, it should be passed around to the units that are traditionally Deathwing (Libbies, Shield-weilding Captains and Lieutenants, the now merged but used to be Interrogator Chaplains) - especially with an eye to supporting the relatively new and recently added power armor units as well as the Termaintors, the Lion should get the Deathwing keyword (and if they ever make The Lion On Super Huge Outrider Bike he should get the Ravenwing keyword) The Storm Raven should be explicitly Deathwing and probably exempted from Ravenwing. While I think GW drops the ball a lot, I also have some faith. The codex leak and the value box release about 2 and a half weeks ago without the stand alone release despite several empty weeks in between - it does not appear to be on the list for this weekend. I'm hoping it was supposed to release but they've delayed it for a release day FAQ.

The DA codex hits shelves on 9 March, IIRC from GW statement this past week.

I thought they said it goes up for preorder this Saturday, or is it going to be one of those two-week preorder things?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I thought they said it goes up for preorder this Saturday, or is it going to be one of those two-week preorder things?

I thought 2 week pre orders was the new normal?

Took an Inner Circle Task Force for a stroll today - opponent was cool with my trying the Codex before official release date.

I had a Terminator Captain (Deathwing Assault) with a ten-man Deathwing Squad, a Terminator Chaplain (Singular Will) with Deathwing Knights with swords, Ezekiel and six Bladeguard, a five-man Deathwing Squad, two Scout Squads, an Infiltrator Squad, a Land Raider and a Land Raider Crusader. I was looking to try out the ability to put early pressure with Deathwing Assault along with Ezekiel's cool character-sniping powers.

I faced new Drukhari with a bunch of Raiders, Ravagers, Venoms, Kabalites, Incubi, Mandrakes and Scourges. We played Take and Hold on . She had first drop and we alternated infiltrators which already started to back-foot my plan for early Deathwing pressure. With all her Dark Lances I kept my Land Raiders fairly deep behind cover, with Ezekiel's groups on the left in the Land Raider and the Knights in the Crusader in the middle.

She got first turn and scooped up a Scout squad while flooding the board with units. She had a Venom loaded with an Archon and Incubi on my left, a Raider with Kabalites and an Archon in the centre and a Venom with Drazzar and Incubi on my right. I focused on my left and centre, and Deathwing Assaulted my ten-man squad...into my deployment zone since there was nothing else really available and I did want to charge. The left-flank Land Raider popped the Archon's Venom, setting Ezekiel up for an epic character snipe. He hit with Mind Wipe, but I rolled a 1 for the Wound. I gambled and CP rerolled it, into a 3. The Archon saved it and I then rolled a 1 for my Hazardous. Oh dear.

A Scout sniper was able to cause the Archon to fail an Invul - rolling 1s was quite contagious while other fire took down three of the Incubi. In the centre a hail of Cyclone missiles, Multi-Meltas and Assault Cannons failed to kill a Raider, but did wound it. The Bladeguard took down the Archon and the last Incubi while the sword-Knights took out the Raider. Go Chaplain with the +1 to Wound. The Knight piled-into the dismounted Kabalites due to the enhancement.

From here the Drukhari were on the backfoot. A hail of Dark Lance fire into the Deathwing Knights only killed one, their resilience aided by Unmatched Fortitude. By the end of the game I had lost the five-man Deathwing Squad to Drazzar and the Incubi, but the Deathwing Knights chewed through another Kabalite squad and the third Incubi squad, sezing the Drukhari home objective along the way. The big Deathwing Squad fended off Drazzar and his Incubi plus Lilith and some Witches.

A fun if wonky game.

The Inner Circle Task Force detachment rule really didn't come into play. To be fair, wounding is not the usual issue vs Drukhari, but it rarely if ever came up. A cagey opponent can keep their tough stuff off objectives - most of the time.

The Deathwing Assault enhancement kinda fizzled here, but at least they could go kinda where I wanted them on Turn 1 against an opponent who could flood the zone.

The extra pile-in and consolidate enhancement was impactful. Extra movement is good.

Ezekiel's troubles provided some comic relief. It coulda been cool to mind-swipe an Archon, but it was not to be.

I did use Martial Mastery in the big final scrum against Drazzar and Lelith's units. I was wounding on 2s, but rerolling when you have a bunch of attacks against a bunch of models is good.


So, the Deathwing Knights with swords did really well in their first game with me. Now, they were facing an optimum opponent (mostly elite 1W models with a few 2W models). If the points stay around the 200 to 235 range having one as a back-field bully could be viable.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Took an Inner Circle Task Force for a stroll today - opponent was cool with my trying the Codex before official release date.

I had a Terminator Captain (Deathwing Assault) with a ten-man Deathwing Squad, a Terminator Chaplain (Singular Will) with Deathwing Knights with swords, Ezekiel and six Bladeguard, a five-man Deathwing Squad, two Scout Squads, an Infiltrator Squad, a Land Raider and a Land Raider Crusader. I was looking to try out the ability to put early pressure with Deathwing Assault along with Ezekiel's cool character-sniping powers.

I faced new Drukhari with a bunch of Raiders, Ravagers, Venoms, Kabalites, Incubi, Mandrakes and Scourges. We played Take and Hold on . She had first drop and we alternated infiltrators which already started to back-foot my plan for early Deathwing pressure. With all her Dark Lances I kept my Land Raiders fairly deep behind cover, with Ezekiel's groups on the left in the Land Raider and the Knights in the Crusader in the middle.

She got first turn and scooped up a Scout squad while flooding the board with units. She had a Venom loaded with an Archon and Incubi on my left, a Raider with Kabalites and an Archon in the centre and a Venom with Drazzar and Incubi on my right. I focused on my left and centre, and Deathwing Assaulted my ten-man squad...into my deployment zone since there was nothing else really available and I did want to charge. The left-flank Land Raider popped the Archon's Venom, setting Ezekiel up for an epic character snipe. He hit with Mind Wipe, but I rolled a 1 for the Wound. I gambled and CP rerolled it, into a 3. The Archon saved it and I then rolled a 1 for my Hazardous. Oh dear.

A Scout sniper was able to cause the Archon to fail an Invul - rolling 1s was quite contagious while other fire took down three of the Incubi. In the centre a hail of Cyclone missiles, Multi-Meltas and Assault Cannons failed to kill a Raider, but did wound it. The Bladeguard took down the Archon and the last Incubi while the sword-Knights took out the Raider. Go Chaplain with the +1 to Wound. The Knight piled-into the dismounted Kabalites due to the enhancement.

From here the Drukhari were on the backfoot. A hail of Dark Lance fire into the Deathwing Knights only killed one, their resilience aided by Unmatched Fortitude. By the end of the game I had lost the five-man Deathwing Squad to Drazzar and the Incubi, but the Deathwing Knights chewed through another Kabalite squad and the third Incubi squad, sezing the Drukhari home objective along the way. The big Deathwing Squad fended off Drazzar and his Incubi plus Lilith and some Witches.

A fun if wonky game.

The Inner Circle Task Force detachment rule really didn't come into play. To be fair, wounding is not the usual issue vs Drukhari, but it rarely if ever came up. A cagey opponent can keep their tough stuff off objectives - most of the time.

The Deathwing Assault enhancement kinda fizzled here, but at least they could go kinda where I wanted them on Turn 1 against an opponent who could flood the zone.

The extra pile-in and consolidate enhancement was impactful. Extra movement is good.

Ezekiel's troubles provided some comic relief. It coulda been cool to mind-swipe an Archon, but it was not to be.

I did use Martial Mastery in the big final scrum against Drazzar and Lelith's units. I was wounding on 2s, but rerolling when you have a bunch of attacks against a bunch of models is good.


So, the Deathwing Knights with swords did really well in their first game with me. Now, they were facing an optimum opponent (mostly elite 1W models with a few 2W models). If the points stay around the 200 to 235 range having one as a back-field bully could be viable.

Terminators of all stripes are pretty much decent but not good/great so yeah its not going to perform poorly. I do have a suggestion: If you're going to mix-match normal and Deathwing units, take a look at the 1st Company Task Force. Zeke forces a Battle-shock Test. Asmodai theoretically forces a LOT of them. Fear Made Manifest (Aura) makes failing Battle-Shock tests painful. Add in some Reivers to nosedive the test. Then really drop the bomb with Terrifying Proficiency to force tests (at another -1) on everyone within 6" in their command phase, after it would have worn off, killing models AND making them Battle-Shocked for a full battle round - their turn and your upcoming turn.

I mean putting it all together:
Reivers with Lieutenant (probably where you put the Fear Made Manifest (AURA): -1 to any/all tests in range
Zeke: Shooting phase Check (-1 from Reivers)
Asmodai: Character units within 6" test at -1 (-2 with Reiver) at the start of the fight phase.
- with Bladeguard Ginsu one unit to Unit Destroyed (Opening up Terrifying)
All Units within 6" Test at a -1 (Reivers) or potential -2(Half Strength) in the the opponent's next Command phase (so do it on your turn)
Any non-Monster/Vehicle unit that fails loses models. One turn (think the Terrifying turn) D3 models are lost for each failure.

Its a lot of wombo combo to line up, but its probably going to be unexpected. And Terrifying avoids the problem with most of the other Out-Of-Phase Battleshock problems i.e. Having it expire at the beginning on their next command phase and thus usually not lasting long enough to do anything. Vs typical MEQ 6+ you need the -2 to drop the probability to 41% (Less than 50%) So its not great, but its got shock value, and gets around X++ and FNP and most other layerable defenses. The Lone Operative characters (Lieutenant with Combi-weapon, Cyper, Techmarines/Warpsmiths, Shadowsun, Autarch Wayleaper, Deathjesters, Solitaires, etc) in range are REALLY screwed. They fail they die.

That is quite the Rube Goldberg machine of an army! While do have a bit of an inner-Johnny, at the end of the day I think I am more of a Spike. I like reliable power. It would be hilarious to pull-off, though, and making Reivers do something while in the worst Space Marine detachment would be a true Johnny gold medal!

I took my Inner Circle Task Force for another battle today, this time against Ultramarines Vanguard in The Relic with Table Quarters deployment. He had some different units than the usual Devastator Centurions, but a good test nonetheless.

The Deathwing Knights with swords did remarkably well again. They killed an Invictor Warsuit with weight of attacks boosted by a Terminator Chaplain's buff. They also buzz-sawed through Calgar, Victrix and a Company Heroes squad, ganking Ventris along the way. I'm enjoying Martial Mastery, as rerolls on Wounds are so hard to come by and Knights don't really need much help hitting.

The big Deathwing Squad with attached Captain was able to do a Turn 1 deepstrike in the enemy deployment zone and kill a key unit (full Jump Assault Intercessors) but then died to weight of fire and two scary charging units. This did, though, force him out of position and took virtually all his combat power while the rest of my force took no-mans land.

Unmatched Fortitude was money against the ten-strong Hellblaster Squad keeping a squad alive, and even caused two Lascannon shots to fail to wound. The squad still died, but this forced him to charge into his own backfield instead of being it the mid-field with the objectives. Baby transhuman is still something, and it is only 1 CP.

I will keep messing around.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
That is quite the Rube Goldberg machine of an army! While do have a bit of an inner-Johnny, at the end of the day I think I am more of a Spike. I like reliable power. It would be hilarious to pull-off, though, and making Reivers do something while in the worst Space Marine detachment would be a true Johnny gold medal!

I took my Inner Circle Task Force for another battle today, this time against Ultramarines Vanguard in The Relic with Table Quarters deployment. He had some different units than the usual Devastator Centurions, but a good test nonetheless.

The Deathwing Knights with swords did remarkably well again. They killed an Invictor Warsuit with weight of attacks boosted by a Terminator Chaplain's buff. They also buzz-sawed through Calgar, Victrix and a Company Heroes squad, ganking Ventris along the way. I'm enjoying Martial Mastery, as rerolls on Wounds are so hard to come by and Knights don't really need much help hitting.

The big Deathwing Squad with attached Captain was able to do a Turn 1 deepstrike in the enemy deployment zone and kill a key unit (full Jump Assault Intercessors) but then died to weight of fire and two scary charging units. This did, though, force him out of position and took virtually all his combat power while the rest of my force took no-mans land.

Unmatched Fortitude was money against the ten-strong Hellblaster Squad keeping a squad alive, and even caused two Lascannon shots to fail to wound. The squad still died, but this forced him to charge into his own backfield instead of being it the mid-field with the objectives. Baby transhuman is still something, and it is only 1 CP.

I will keep messing around.

I'm not sure its quite unreliable - Its not reliable on any given turn, but turn over turn it'll do something., Its also not going to rack up the kills. I'd look at it as more a chronic disease. Mostly it'll be like arthritis - annoying and limiting but not deadly - occasionally it'll cause some cellular (model) death. Realistically the reason for doing it is Terrifying Proficiency. Get into a big multi-unit melee scrum, pop that off, and right after all the normal Battle-Shocks wear off, he's gotta take all new ones for those units AND if/when he fails they're battleshocked for an entire battle round. That's what makes Battleshock worthwhile (and kills it for all the out-of-phase applications because they don't last until his next-next Command Phase as opposed to the 20 seconds End of Turn takes after the Fight phase where they got battleshocked) And if you're going to play for that Strat, you may as well lean into it.

Edit to Add A question: What made the Jump Intercessors so key? I mean I get it, Smash Captain with a bodyguard, but we're not limited to the one captain anymore. Am I underestimating Jump Intercessors?

Were Calgar and Victrix in the Company Heroes Squad? They should have been in a BGV or close second Aggressor Squad. Calgar buffs them so much harder. I like him better in BGV but it's really hard to argue with 6 Aggressors Move. Advance. Gladius-Bomb/Shoot. Charge.

Personally I think people have been sleeping on Jump Intercessors. I'll probably be replacing one of my usual two Inceptor units with a 5-man squad to counter the points hike they took. In many games I don't need the 3-inch deep strike thing to get positional secondaries anyway. I'm not sure it's worth taking a 10-man with a Captain, at least for us Dark Angels, but maybe there's an enhancement or two that I'm not thinking of in one of the Marine detachments that could make them nasty.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Personally I think people have been sleeping on Jump Intercessors. I'll probably be replacing one of my usual two Inceptor units with a 5-man squad to counter the points hike they took. In many games I don't need the 3-inch deep strike thing to get positional secondaries anyway. I'm not sure it's worth taking a 10-man with a Captain, at least for us Dark Angels, but maybe there's an enhancement or two that I'm not thinking of in one of the Marine detachments that could make them nasty.

Vanguard Spearhead The Blade Driven Deep (10 Infiltrating Jump Intercessors? A little nasty)
First Company Task Force The Imperium's Sword (1A every turn for the Smash Cap, +10 one time for the 10 man unit.)

I lean towards The Blade Driven Deep - 10+11 guys Infiltrate, Jump, Charge - 5.5 Mortals, 40 chainswords, 8 fists.

Best I got. Its not bad, but Its not super great.

Truth be told, I would have preferred to use my big Deathwing Squad against his Hellblaster brick, but they were screened out. The Assault Intercessors had mobility and weight of attacks. The MW potential was concerning but my Terminators at least had some protection against that. Given the mission (Relic) and that I had relatively low unit count I didn't want the big unit of Jump Intercessors being able to dominate the one (and then two) objective in play.

I wouldn't consider either of my test games "tourney prep", although we were using the Leviathan mission pack. I don't think I would take a Land Raider Crusader in a tourney! My aim in the two games was to see some of the new units, Detachment rules and Stratagems/Enhancements in action.

The Vowed Target is situational, and your opponent can often try to work around it. Still, it can be more impactful mid and late game when tough units are fighting for the middle objectives. I just wouldn't plan my list and plan around everyone Deathwing Infantry having +1 to Wound all the time.

I think if one is running Deathwing Knights with Maces or Inner Circle Companions then Gladius should be the go-to. You need Honour the Chapter to get around that crippling AP-1, not to mention the +1 to wound.